The Future of the PRO14 - A British League in 2 years time

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Post by Pot Hale on Tue 23 Jul 2019, 5:56 pm

“A British League will happen in two years’ time,” a leading club chairman told The Rugby Paper. “It will happen because it is the best outcome for the game in the four home countries and for CVC. It will appeal to the Welsh regions in particular and the Premiership clubs”, according to a report in The Rugby Paper. “Commercially, they (Welsh) could be as much as 50 per cent better off. It will be important to have all four Irish provinces on board but, if necessary, we will go ahead and do it without them.”

Leaving aside the implications for the Irish, Italian and South African clubs, does this possibility excite?


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Post by BamBam on Tue 23 Jul 2019, 6:03 pm

No

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 23 Jul 2019, 6:17 pm

Not really. We already have a European competition.

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Post by profitius on Tue 23 Jul 2019, 6:18 pm

I can't see why the English clubs would want it. What's in it for them?
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Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue 23 Jul 2019, 6:35 pm

Absolutely fantastic to see this is on the table. I'm genuinely optimistic about the future now I know that this is even in the back of the minds of the club owners.

This is the natural progression for those that really believe in the club game, and how it should be run.

Truly excellent news.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 23 Jul 2019, 6:38 pm

Same as always rugby fan. What's in it for the english? Less money. Less power.

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue 23 Jul 2019, 6:42 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Same as always rugby fan. What's in it for the english? Less money. Less power.  

More money. More power. If not, they won't go for it.

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Post by Brendan on Tue 23 Jul 2019, 6:43 pm

I wouldn't be surprised if the club chairman was one of the Welsh Regions.

With the PRL/CVC debating bring in one or two extra teams into the Prem i cant see this being on the agenda. The amount the CVC paying both leagues the best return for CVC is to put a bit of effort into the Pro14 and grow its footprint especially in South Africa.

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Post by Pot Hale on Tue 23 Jul 2019, 6:52 pm

Brendan wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if the club chairman was one of the Welsh Regions.

With the PRL/CVC debating bring in one or two extra teams into the Prem i cant see this being on the agenda. The amount the CVC paying both leagues the best return for CVC is to put a bit of effort into the Pro14 and grow its footprint especially in South Africa.

The club chairman is from the Premiership. This idea is emerging from the imminent purchase of a stake in the PRO14 comp for approx £90m. An interesting development for its 3 owners - IRFU/SRU/WRU.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 23 Jul 2019, 6:53 pm

So they wont go for it. Easy come easy go.

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Post by demosthenes on Tue 23 Jul 2019, 7:51 pm

Turkey's wishing for Christmas. If you simply take the top ten UK and Ireland clubs in the Rugby Vision rankings as a first division of any hypothetical league, there would be no Welsh clubs in there. And seven Premiership clubs in D2. I'm sure they would be happy with that!

Sure, something might happen, but not a straightforward B&I league.


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Post by The Oracle on Tue 23 Jul 2019, 8:54 pm

I’m sure they’re not going to do this just for the Welsh, no matter how much some try to spin it!
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Post by LeinsterFan4life on Tue 23 Jul 2019, 9:09 pm

This chairman needs a geography lesson...

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue 23 Jul 2019, 9:27 pm

It will be even better if it's just the Welsh that get to play with the English.

That way everybody gets what they want right?

With the Scots and Irish playing against Cheetas and Zebre. Winner all round. Because that's what they seem to want. The more I think about this the more it makes sense. Hopefully it will happen.

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Post by carpet baboon on Tue 23 Jul 2019, 9:39 pm

Pretty much the same story that came out at the same time as the euro fight a few years back.
It was a cowpat power play by BT/PRL to try and bully the RFU back then, can't see it being much different now.

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Post by carpet baboon on Tue 23 Jul 2019, 9:40 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:It will be even better if it's just the Welsh that get to play with the English.

That way everybody gets what they want right?

With the Scots and Irish playing against Cheetas and Zebre. Winner all round. Because that's what they seem to want. The more I think about this the more it makes sense. Hopefully it will happen.

Again the English would never take in the Welsh on there own. Absolutely no value to them

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue 23 Jul 2019, 9:41 pm

carpet baboon wrote:Pretty much the same story that came out at the same time as the euro fight a few years back.
It was a cowpat power play by BT/PRL to try and bully the RFU back then, can't see it being much different now.
#

Who were the equivalent of CVC back then?

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue 23 Jul 2019, 9:41 pm

carpet baboon wrote:Pretty much the same story that came out at the same time as the euro fight a few years back.
It was a cowpat power play by BT/PRL to try and bully the RFU back then, can't see it being much different now.


Who were the equivalent of CVC back then?

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue 23 Jul 2019, 9:42 pm

carpet baboon wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:It will be even better if it's just the Welsh that get to play with the English.

That way everybody gets what they want right?

With the Scots and Irish playing against Cheetas and Zebre. Winner all round. Because that's what they seem to want. The more I think about this the more it makes sense. Hopefully it will happen.

Again the English would never take in the Welsh on there own. Absolutely no value to them

Unless money talks.

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Post by SecretFly on Tue 23 Jul 2019, 10:29 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:It will be even better if it's just the Welsh that get to play with the English.

That way everybody gets what they want right?

With the Scots and Irish playing against Cheetas and Zebre. Winner all round. Because that's what they seem to want. The more I think about this the more it makes sense. Hopefully it will happen.

Correct. It does what it says on the tin? British League. Welsh and English. Heaven for Phil. World Peace and an end to Global Warming! Yes! Yahoo

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Post by BamBam on Tue 23 Jul 2019, 11:13 pm

An Ireland / Scotland / Italy / SA league sounds good. Can the English clubs join that one instead?

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Post by SecretFly on Tue 23 Jul 2019, 11:24 pm

You'd be welcome Bam.... let's throw in the Aussies, NZ and Argentina and call it a World League. Wales can join in a later decade when they write 10,000,000 lines on the blackboard apologising to Irish refs for calling them cheats.

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Post by profitius on Wed 24 Jul 2019, 7:42 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:It will be even better if it's just the Welsh that get to play with the English.

That way everybody gets what they want right?

With the Scots and Irish playing against Cheetas and Zebre. Winner all round. Because that's what they seem to want. The more I think about this the more it makes sense. Hopefully it will happen.


It makes sense or everyone but the English. Not only do they have to pay for 4 regions but they'll have to put up with constant whinging and conspiracy theories about English refs and how the league is London centric. laughing
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Post by LordDowlais on Wed 24 Jul 2019, 8:26 am

There is a massive anti-Welsh agenda on here, yet again, yet the moderators just let everybody carry on. This place at times. picard

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Post by BamBam on Wed 24 Jul 2019, 9:21 am

laughing

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Post by Pot Hale on Wed 24 Jul 2019, 9:38 am

LordDowlais wrote:There is a massive anti-Welsh agenda on here, yet again, yet the moderators just let everybody carry on. This place at times. picard

The moderators are all Welsh, the story is about Welsh regions, the Welsh fans here are delirious and you’re not happy. Even Secretfly has turned Welsh for the day.
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Post by Irish Londoner on Wed 24 Jul 2019, 10:10 am

LordDowlais wrote:There is a massive anti-Welsh agenda on here, yet again, yet the moderators just let everybody carry on. This place at times. picard

If you mean there's a massive pro-commonsense agenda on here then you're right.

For the umpteenth time, the English don't want you except as useful idiots when they want to divide the PRO14 clubs so force through what they want, like the "improved" European Cup and then you were dropped faster than Danny Cipriani at an England squad session.

Wales joining the English league is a bit like the Scottish football fans going on about Celtic and Rangers joining the English football league - yes it's a good idea for them but no one can point out the benefits to the English of them joining in.

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Post by LordDowlais on Wed 24 Jul 2019, 10:14 am

Irish Londoner wrote:For the umpteenth time, the English don't want you except as useful idiots when they want to divide the PRO14 clubs so force through what they want, like the "improved" European Cup and then you were dropped faster than Danny Cipriani at an England squad session.

Classy. Rolling Eyes

I have been given warnings for less.

For the record I have no interest in the regions joining the English, we seem to be doing fine with the Pro14. Even though the regions under achieve in it. I am happy supporting my own club, and Wales are riding high at the minute. OK

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Post by The Oracle on Wed 24 Jul 2019, 10:23 am

This isn’t a Welsh idea, as far as I know! CVC are the ones driving this, whoever they are. How come it’s suddenly become about everyone v Wales. Even the good posters are joining in!

I know there’s a bit of banter and some gentle (and some not so gentle!) ribbing going on, but why are some completely against a Pro/14 and English combined league, but happy with a league made up of everyone bar the Welsh? Is it just that some people/nations need to feel that they’re the ones in charge and are proposing these things?! Maybe the ‘being in charge’ and ego side of things will be something that holds back a European league from getting off the ground.
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Post by BamBam on Wed 24 Jul 2019, 10:27 am

My preferences for the English clubs would be

Status quo


Combined Pro14/English league



















Rugby being banned worldwide by the Trump / Johnson brains trust
English and Welsh only league

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Post by The Oracle on Wed 24 Jul 2019, 10:51 am

BamBam wrote:My preferences for the English clubs would be

Status quo


Combined Pro14/English league



















Rugby being banned worldwide by the Trump / Johnson brains trust
English and Welsh only league

I have to agree. I don’t see the point of an English/Welsh league. It’s status quo or B&I/European league for me. Can see many pros and cons of a new combined league though.
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Post by Rugby Fan on Wed 24 Jul 2019, 11:10 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:For the umpteenth time, the English don't want you except as useful idiots when they want to divide the PRO14 clubs so force through what they want, like the "improved" European Cup and then you were dropped faster than Danny Cipriani at an England squad session.

Classy. Rolling Eyes

I have been given warnings for less.
"Useful idiots" has a long history of usage. I may not agree with Irish Londoner but his use of the term makes it easy to understand his thinking. Can't see why anyone would be warned for writing it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot

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Post by LordDowlais on Wed 24 Jul 2019, 11:14 am

Rugby Fan wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:For the umpteenth time, the English don't want you except as useful idiots when they want to divide the PRO14 clubs so force through what they want, like the "improved" European Cup and then you were dropped faster than Danny Cipriani at an England squad session.

Classy. Rolling Eyes

I have been given warnings for less.
"Useful idiots" has a long history of usage. I may not agree with Irish Londoner but his use of the term makes it easy to understand his thinking. Can't see why anyone would be warned for writing it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot

Just going on the precedent set by what I have been warned for. I just hope there is meritocracy on here with the moderating. Oh and for the record, it was not me who reported it, so someone else must have taken offence to it as well.


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Post by The Oracle on Wed 24 Jul 2019, 11:21 am

Presidents!
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Post by LordDowlais on Wed 24 Jul 2019, 11:24 am

The Oracle wrote:Presidents!

Friggin auto spell. Laugh

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Post by BamBam on Wed 24 Jul 2019, 11:28 am

Precedent!

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Post by Irish Londoner on Wed 24 Jul 2019, 12:02 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:For the umpteenth time, the English don't want you except as useful idiots when they want to divide the PRO14 clubs so force through what they want, like the "improved" European Cup and then you were dropped faster than Danny Cipriani at an England squad session.

Classy. Rolling Eyes

I have been given warnings for less.
"Useful idiots" has a long history of usage. I may not agree with Irish Londoner but his use of the term makes it easy to understand his thinking. Can't see why anyone would be warned for writing it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot

Just going on the precedent set by what I have been warned for. I just hope there is meritocracy on here with the moderating. Oh and for the record, it was not me who reported it, so someone else must have taken offence to it as well.

Apologies if you (or anyone else) found the term offensive, I was referring the revision of the old HEC forced through by the English and French clubs to suit their purposes, when the English clubs briefly held out the carrot of joining the Premiership to the Welsh club owners in order to get them to break ranks with the other PRO 12 teams in order to get the deal through then promptly withdrew it as soon as they got what they wanted. You must remember that, it was a fairly hectic time on here....


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Post by Kingshu on Wed 24 Jul 2019, 8:32 pm

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/an-anglo-welsh-league-realistically-doesnt-hold-much-appeal-for-the-english-premiership

Nicely sums up why the regions should stick with the Pro 14 and stop looking at England with envy.

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Post by BamBam on Wed 24 Jul 2019, 9:00 pm

Someone called rugbyphilballbag making loads of friends under the twitter link to that article

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Post by The Oracle on Wed 24 Jul 2019, 9:17 pm

Kingshu wrote:https://www.rugbypass.com/news/an-anglo-welsh-league-realistically-doesnt-hold-much-appeal-for-the-english-premiership

Nicely sums up why the regions should stick with the Pro 14 and stop looking at England with envy.


It’s just stating the obvious. Many, many welsh posters have posted the same on here. But at the same time it doesn’t mean that fans might not yearn for games against neighbouring teams, no matter how unrealistic. And if some organisation (CVC) comes along is proposing a league that would essentially mean that those sort of fixtures happen as part of the league structure then what’s the issue with some fans liking the idea???
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Post by SecretFly on Wed 24 Jul 2019, 9:45 pm

The Oracle wrote:

I know there’s a bit of banter and some gentle (and some not so gentle!) ribbing going on, but why are some completely against a Pro/14 and English combined league, but happy with a league made up of everyone bar the Welsh? .

I think you are more right in the first part of your sentence, Oracle, than in the second part.  Most of us aren't new to these threads...we're all kinda longtoothed 606ers.  I think it is quite obvious that the 'everyone bar the Welsh' tag line is very much a common-place running-gag in these pages dedicated to or referencing Pro14.  
Why?  Well perhaps simply as a useful, humorous foil for a few Welsh lads who kinda regularly pop up on Pro14 threads/English Premiership news threads and give off a mighty strong whiff of 'everyone bar the Irish' aftershave
So it's a kind of banterish tet-a-tet, isn't it.  Nothing serious. Nothing the UN has to be concerned about.  Nothing NATO needs to drone attack.  Nothing Boris has to create an international incident over.  Nothing a canary has to get over excited about.  Nothing a lemming has to sprint over a cliff about.
Now why oh why, even after all these years, and all the same contributors present, do we still need to highlight the workings of this little endless game?  Banter is awful stuff indeed when it has to explain itself.

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Post by SecretFly on Wed 24 Jul 2019, 9:58 pm

The Oracle wrote:
Kingshu wrote:https://www.rugbypass.com/news/an-anglo-welsh-league-realistically-doesnt-hold-much-appeal-for-the-english-premiership

Nicely sums up why the regions should stick with the Pro 14 and stop looking at England with envy.


It’s just stating the obvious. Many, many welsh posters have posted the same on here. But at the same time it doesn’t mean that fans might not yearn for games against neighbouring teams, no matter how unrealistic. And if some organisation (CVC) comes along is proposing a league that would essentially mean that those sort of fixtures happen as part of the league structure then what’s the issue with some fans liking the idea???

Perhaps some are concerned about egos in such an extended concept and perception about who might consider themselves to be in charge.  At the moment there are three big Leagues in European rugby catering for a rough population base of some 195 million people.  I think that population in big enough to handle three leagues...who then pool activity in the Euro contests throughout the year.  For me, I tire of this endless need for Expansion, consolidation and linking up of Leagues worldwide.  It isn't needed. It's just either a generational obsession - or downright addiction - with SPORT...or simple corporate greed, greed, greed.

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Post by The Oracle on Wed 24 Jul 2019, 10:37 pm

SecretFly wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
Kingshu wrote:https://www.rugbypass.com/news/an-anglo-welsh-league-realistically-doesnt-hold-much-appeal-for-the-english-premiership

Nicely sums up why the regions should stick with the Pro 14 and stop looking at England with envy.


It’s just stating the obvious. Many, many welsh posters have posted the same on here. But at the same time it doesn’t mean that fans might not yearn for games against neighbouring teams, no matter how unrealistic. And if some organisation (CVC) comes along is proposing a league that would essentially mean that those sort of fixtures happen as part of the league structure then what’s the issue with some fans liking the idea???

Perhaps some are concerned about egos in such an extended concept and perception about who might consider themselves to be in charge.  At the moment there are three big Leagues in European rugby catering for a rough population base of some 195 million people.  I think that population in big enough to handle three leagues...who then pool activity in the Euro contests throughout the year.  For me, I tire of this endless need for Expansion, consolidation and linking up of Leagues worldwide.  It isn't needed. It's just either a generational obsession - or downright addiction - with SPORT...or simple corporate greed, greed, greed.

I’ve seen posters on the Pro14 threads suggesting we get the Georgians involved, get more SA teams involved, get the Spanish involved even, but the mention of getting the English involved and everyone goes rabid at the welsh. But your previous post sort of points to it - 606 is full of head cases (to paraphrase a little).
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Post by Stone Motif on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 7:46 am

Kingshu wrote:https://www.rugbypass.com/news/an-anglo-welsh-league-realistically-doesnt-hold-much-appeal-for-the-english-premiership

Nicely sums up why the regions should stick with the Pro 14 and stop looking at England with envy.

Nicely sums up why people who don't understand finance and economics shouldn't really listen to random clowns who stink of fear.
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The Future of the PRO14 - A British League in 2 years time Empty Re: The Future of the PRO14 - A British League in 2 years time

Post by Stone Motif on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 7:51 am

profitius wrote:I can't see why the English clubs would want it. What's in it for them?

One step towards a full British and Irish league, which has many advantages for them, not least of which would forcing you lot to play by the same rules as everyone else.
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Post by stevetynant on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 8:45 am

I think this would be the vehicle to drive rugby in these islands to the next level and see the sport in the Northern Hemisphere evolve tremendously. Lets not be under any misunderstanding the one thing that is driving this alleged initiative is Money it always is in Professional sport - every Nation needs a bigger cut including England.

The argument why do England need it doesn't hold water for me - with the exception of Exeter all their sides are running at a loss - some at barely believable levels and wholly unsustainable in the long run. Saracens apart their club sides for the most part are not competitive in Europe so surely competition and exposure to different styles of rugby to fully loaded Celtic sides would drive standards up?

For the Welsh and Scottish the advantages are obvious in increased competition and Revenue -the Country that may not be as advantaged in this deal is Ireland who whether by luck or judgement seem to have hit the perfect formula with both National and Provincial sides competitive at the moment but the money would come in handy as it always does.

My hope is for two leagues based on European standings in the first season with the cream rising to the top and demotion/promotion between the two leagues annually - Unions or probably just the RFU ,should be left to decide whether sides should be promoted from lower leagues into the elite British League. As for South Africa and Italy time to cut loose I'm afraid.

There's been smoke before and nothing ever came of it but with the money now being talked about I'm guessing it might well happen this time around.


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Post by carpet baboon on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 9:02 am

Stone Motif wrote:
profitius wrote:I can't see why the English clubs would want it. What's in it for them?

One step towards a full British and Irish league, which has many advantages for them, not least of which would forcing you lot to play by the same rules as everyone else.

And this is why it won't happen.

PRL have said that for any joint  league everyone has to have the same ownership model as them.

The IRFU will not destroy themselves to appease the PRL.

Without the Irish the PRL will have no intrest

Dead before it starts.

The Welsh alone hold no financial incentives for the PRL.

So either the PRL back down on ownership model, you r everything stays the same

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Post by carpet baboon on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 9:06 am

stevetynant wrote:I think this would be the vehicle to drive rugby in these islands to the next level and see the sport in the Northern Hemisphere evolve tremendously. Lets not be under any misunderstanding the one thing that is driving this alleged initiative is Money it always is in Professional sport - every Nation needs a bigger cut including England.

The argument why do England need it doesn't hold water for me - with the exception of Exeter all their sides are running at a loss - some at barely believable levels and wholly unsustainable in the long run. Saracens apart their club sides for the most part are not competitive in Europe so surely competition and exposure to different styles of rugby to fully loaded Celtic sides would drive standards up?

For the Welsh and Scottish the advantages are obvious in increased competition and Revenue -the Country that may not be as advantaged in this deal is Ireland who whether by luck or judgement seem to have hit the perfect formula with both National and Provincial sides competitive at the moment but the money would come in handy as it always does.

My hope is for two leagues based on European standings in the first season with the cream rising to the top and demotion/promotion between the two leagues annually - Unions or probably just the RFU ,should be left to decide whether sides should be promoted from lower leagues into the elite British League. As for South Africa and Italy time to cut loose I'm afraid.

There's been smoke before and nothing ever came of it but with the money now being talked about I'm guessing it might well happen this time around.


Two leagues won't wash. The PRL will not vote for half of their clubs to be in the lower division.

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Post by maestegmafia on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 9:18 am

stevetynant wrote:I think this would be the vehicle to drive rugby in these islands to the next level and see the sport in the Northern Hemisphere evolve tremendously. Lets not be under any misunderstanding the one thing that is driving this alleged initiative is Money it always is in Professional sport - every Nation needs a bigger cut including England.

The argument why do England need it doesn't hold water for me - with the exception of Exeter all their sides are running at a loss - some at barely believable levels and wholly unsustainable in the long run. Saracens apart their club sides for the most part are not competitive in Europe so surely competition and exposure to different styles of rugby to fully loaded Celtic sides would drive standards up?

For the Welsh and Scottish the advantages are obvious in increased competition and Revenue -the Country that may not be as advantaged in this deal is Ireland who whether by luck or judgement seem to have hit the perfect formula with both National and Provincial sides competitive at the moment but the money would come in handy as it always does.

My hope is for two leagues based on European standings in the first season with the cream rising to the top and demotion/promotion between the two leagues annually - Unions or probably just the RFU ,should be left to decide whether sides should be promoted from lower leagues into the elite British League. As for South Africa and Italy time to cut loose I'm afraid.

There's been smoke before and nothing ever came of it but with the money now being talked about I'm guessing it might well happen this time around.


Quite and I am glad that a financier can see the larger s competition will certainly improve the quality of the rugby we get to watch in all the home nations.


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The Future of the PRO14 - A British League in 2 years time Empty Re: The Future of the PRO14 - A British League in 2 years time

Post by profitius on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 9:30 am

carpet baboon wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
profitius wrote:I can't see why the English clubs would want it. What's in it for them?

One step towards a full British and Irish league, which has many advantages for them, not least of which would forcing you lot to play by the same rules as everyone else.

And this is why it won't happen.

PRL have said that for any joint  league everyone has to have the same ownership model as them.

The IRFU will not destroy themselves to appease the PRL.

Without the Irish the PRL will have no intrest

Dead before it starts.

The Welsh alone hold no financial incentives for the PRL.

So either the PRL back down on ownership model, you r everything stays the same

Exactly.

I'm happy enough with the pro14. Don't get me wrong, it would be great to play the likes of Northampton, Gloucester, Exeter etc regularly but long term the safer option is to keep building the pro14.

If we did have a B&I league and all is good, there's always the chance that the English teams might want to go it alone again in the future. Then the Celtic teams would have to start over again.

The relationship with the Italians would be ruined.
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