The Future of the PRO14 - A British League in 2 years time

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Post by Pot Hale on Tue 23 Jul 2019, 5:56 pm

First topic message reminder :

“A British League will happen in two years’ time,” a leading club chairman told The Rugby Paper. “It will happen because it is the best outcome for the game in the four home countries and for CVC. It will appeal to the Welsh regions in particular and the Premiership clubs”, according to a report in The Rugby Paper. “Commercially, they (Welsh) could be as much as 50 per cent better off. It will be important to have all four Irish provinces on board but, if necessary, we will go ahead and do it without them.”

Leaving aside the implications for the Irish, Italian and South African clubs, does this possibility excite?


Last edited by Pot Hale on Tue 23 Jul 2019, 6:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by LordDowlais on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 9:33 am

The Irish might get their hands forced on this one though. If everybody else wants this, and CVC are going to throw massive amounts of cash at this, then they might have to.


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Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 9:50 am

Stone Motif wrote:
Kingshu wrote:https://www.rugbypass.com/news/an-anglo-welsh-league-realistically-doesnt-hold-much-appeal-for-the-english-premiership

Nicely sums up why the regions should stick with the Pro 14 and stop looking at England with envy.

Nicely sums up why people who don't understand finance and economics shouldn't really listen to random clowns who stink of fear.

People who don't understand Welsh regional rugby and it's nuances should read this twitter thread. It contains more info and accurate points than 99% of the stuff written on this forum about the same subject:

https://twitter.com/alexshawsport/status/1153369941103566848

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Post by BamBam on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 9:53 am

Are there seriously people who would want Welsh independence just so they can give rugby players tax breaks?

Dear lord

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Post by LordDowlais on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 10:09 am

I don't want Welsh independence. Not in a million years.

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Post by BamBam on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 10:10 am

Was one of the replies in the thread RF linked to rather than a reference to anyone here

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Post by Brendan on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 10:19 am

All the talk of extra money and clubs not making a profit seem to overlook history.

Over the last 10 years money has increased yet the number of clubs making a profit has decreased.  Any extra money coming in is unlikely to make a difference to the profits.  If we look at France extra income has caused smaller clubs with smaller towns/regions to drop down levels. Only Castre seem by pure luck to be able to compete.

If we were to carry that over to a B&I league Irish teams are in a unique position of everyone feeling ownership of a province.  So Leinster have 2.6m, Ulster 2.1m, Munster 1.2m with lowly Connacht still able to have 500k.  As long as ownership model doesn't change the IRFU would be able to keep Connacht compeditive.  As has been shown by the changes to European qualification the Irish have either had 3/4 teams in the HC even though the total number of places went from 10 places to 7 places.  Add in they all have new enough stadiums or there are plans to develop.
Teams that are likely to lose out are not in large population would be teams like Scarlets who are likely to fall off the pace as will some of the English teams as happened in France.  While Exeter make a profit are they best placed to grow or have they reached close to their max potential.

If everyone's income in the PRL goes up by 25% and the Pro14 by 50% (due to lower base) who is best placed to take advantage.  I think the IRFU and SRU have shown they are able to get more for their buck as they have synergy having more than one team.  I cant see either agreeing to change ownership and probably want a veto on it.  Realistically we don't want the Irish teams being broken up because otherwise Leinster will be far stronger than any team in the league as their money will dwarf everone else.
The extra money coming in from CVC into the pro14 will most likely go on different things for different people.
Italy (if they get some) will hopefully use it on their academies
Wales on buying the other 3 teams
Scotland on building the mini stadium for Edinburgh and increasing capacity in Glasgow
Ireland on improving schools participating in rugby tournament outside of the private schools.

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 10:22 am

Why are posters obsessing over "profit"? Rugby Union has rarely been a sport that makes a profit. That won't change soon.

Wales won the Grand Slam, yet the WRU will make a loss of £5m this year.


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Post by Brendan on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 10:27 am

LordDowlais wrote:The Irish might get their hands forced on this one though. If everybody else wants this, and CVC are going to throw massive amounts of cash at this, then they might have to.


I don't think the IRFU would care as long as certain things are agreed upon that they would have a veto over
1. They retain current ownership model they have
2. It will only be conferences and not divisions
3. The ability to add one more team if and when they choose.
4. That Italy are included
5. That the RFU not the PRL hold the shares for the English teams (they can delegate voting rights but not to make changes which must come through the RFU)

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 10:30 am

Brendan wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The Irish might get their hands forced on this one though. If everybody else wants this, and CVC are going to throw massive amounts of cash at this, then they might have to.


I don't think the IRFU would care as long as certain things are agreed upon that they would have a veto over
1. They retain current ownership model they have
2. It will only be conferences and not divisions
3. The ability to add one more team if and when they choose.
4. That Italy are included
5. That the RFU not the PRL hold the shares for the English teams (they can delegate voting rights but not to make changes which must come through the RFU)


And that's why it will either not go ahead, or happen without the Irish and/or Scots. Selfishness. Just so Ireland get to keep their corrupt model.

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Post by Brendan on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 10:36 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:Why are posters obsessing over "profit"? Rugby Union has rarely been a sport that makes a profit. That won't change soon.

Wales won the Grand Slam, yet the WRU will make a loss of £5m this year.


The ability to never balance your books over a long period of time results in the situation of the Scottish and Welsh teams having swapped places in the Pro 14.  If the Scots hadn't started making money they would be weak like they use to be.  Welsh teams are weak because they haven't been able to balance the books.  After all we had a team almost fold in Wales last season due to the owner not wanting to put in money every year

In business cash is King and when you have some like the Scottish teams you can improve stadiums, sign up young players on new contracts, Get good coaches.  When you don't balance the books the cash goes and you can't make changes you want so you play in old stadiums and young players let their deals run down because they don't get contract extensions.

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Post by Brendan on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 10:37 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Brendan wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The Irish might get their hands forced on this one though. If everybody else wants this, and CVC are going to throw massive amounts of cash at this, then they might have to.


I don't think the IRFU would care as long as certain things are agreed upon that they would have a veto over
1. They retain current ownership model they have
2. It will only be conferences and not divisions
3. The ability to add one more team if and when they choose.
4. That Italy are included
5. That the RFU not the PRL hold the shares for the English teams (they can delegate voting rights but not to make changes which must come through the RFU)


And that's why it will either not go ahead, or happen without the Irish and/or Scots. Selfishness. Just so Ireland get to keep their corrupt model.

And the Welsh joining I guess is taking one for the team and not for their own selfish reasons

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Post by Irish Londoner on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 10:41 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:Why are posters obsessing over "profit"? Rugby Union has rarely been a sport that makes a profit. That won't change soon.

Wales won the Grand Slam, yet the WRU will make a loss of £5m this year.


Because growth without profit is unsustainable unless you are a Saracens or Bath with an owner/funder who is willing to put money in forever with no prospect of getting it back. Sooner or later the house of cards collapses - look at Yorkshire Carnegie.

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Post by Pot Hale on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 10:41 am

I’m kind of surprised that it would be called a British League if the intent is to have the Irish teams involved in it - perhaps just a slip of the tongue like the British Lions, the British Isles, the home countries, etc, etc.

However, the comment from the anonymous club chairman that it would be nice but not essential to have them involved, and how to dispense with the Italians and South Africans as well, would point to the starting desire being only to have a British League.
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Post by Irish Londoner on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 10:45 am

Brendan wrote:All the talk of extra money and clubs not making a profit seem to overlook history.

Over the last 10 years money has increased yet the number of clubs making a profit has decreased.  Any extra money coming in is unlikely to make a difference to the profits.  If we look at France extra income has caused smaller clubs with smaller towns/regions to drop down levels. Only Castre seem by pure luck to be able to compete.

If we were to carry that over to a B&I league Irish teams are in a unique position of everyone feeling ownership of a province.  So Leinster have 2.6m, Ulster 2.1m, Munster 1.2m with lowly Connacht still able to have 500k.  As long as ownership model doesn't change the IRFU would be able to keep Connacht compeditive.  As has been shown by the changes to European qualification the Irish have either had 3/4 teams in the HC even though the total number of places went from 10 places to 7 places.  Add in they all have new enough stadiums or there are plans to develop.
Teams that are likely to lose out are not in large population would be teams like Scarlets who are likely to fall off the pace as will some of the English teams as happened in France.  While Exeter make a profit are they best placed to grow or have they reached close to their max potential.

If everyone's income in the PRL goes up by 25% and the Pro14 by 50% (due to lower base) who is best placed to take advantage.  I think the IRFU and SRU have shown they are able to get more for their buck as they have synergy having more than one team.  I cant see either agreeing to change ownership and probably want a veto on it.  Realistically we don't want the Irish teams being broken up because otherwise Leinster will be far stronger than any team in the league as their money will dwarf everone else.
The extra money coming in from CVC into the pro14 will most likely go on different things for different people.
Italy (if they get some) will hopefully use it on their academies
Wales on buying the other 3 teams
Scotland on building the mini stadium for Edinburgh and increasing capacity in Glasgow
Ireland on improving schools participating in rugby tournament outside of the private schools.

The problem is that in a game of instant results, most of the clubs will spaff it up the wall buying SH players on huge contracts in order to "be competitive"....

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Post by Irish Londoner on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 10:48 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Brendan wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The Irish might get their hands forced on this one though. If everybody else wants this, and CVC are going to throw massive amounts of cash at this, then they might have to.


I don't think the IRFU would care as long as certain things are agreed upon that they would have a veto over
1. They retain current ownership model they have
2. It will only be conferences and not divisions
3. The ability to add one more team if and when they choose.
4. That Italy are included
5. That the RFU not the PRL hold the shares for the English teams (they can delegate voting rights but not to make changes which must come through the RFU)


And that's why it will either not go ahead, or happen without the Irish and/or Scots. Selfishness. Just so Ireland get to keep their corrupt model.

Can you explain what's corrupt about the Irish model? It seems to work well for them and has transformed Irish rugby over the last 20 years.
And are you happy to chuck Italian rugby to the wall just so Scarlets can get humped by Saracens twice a year?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 11:00 am

The other thing youd have to throw in there is salary cap. Currently the english have one though ignored by a couple of clubs would all the other teams be willing to bend to the prl on that. Dead in the water before it starts. To many chiefs.

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 11:15 am

Irish Londoner wrote:

Can you explain what's corrupt about the Irish model? It seems to work well for them and has transformed Irish rugby over the last 20 years.

Yes happy to - the IRFU own 4 teams and swap players around to make all of them as competitive as possible. This is something that is banned in most other pro sports. And was vetoed by the English only recently. As it is corruption .
And are you happy to chuck Italian rugby to the wall just so Scarlets can get humped by Saracens twice a year?

Very happy.

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 11:16 am

Brendan wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:Why are posters obsessing over "profit"? Rugby Union has rarely been a sport that makes a profit. That won't change soon.

Wales won the Grand Slam, yet the WRU will make a loss of £5m this year.


The ability to never balance your books over a long period of time results in the situation of the Scottish and Welsh teams having swapped places in the Pro 14.  If the Scots hadn't started making money they would be weak like they use to be.  Welsh teams are weak because they haven't been able to balance the books.  After all we had a team almost fold in Wales last season due to the owner not wanting to put in money every year

In business cash is King and when you have some like the Scottish teams you can improve stadiums, sign up young players on new contracts, Get good coaches.  When you don't balance the books the cash goes and you can't make changes you want so you play in old stadiums and young players let their deals run down because they don't get contract extensions.

I've never read so much guff in all my life. How much profit do Edinburgh make?

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 11:19 am

Irish Londoner wrote:

Because growth without profit is unsustainable unless you are a Saracens or Bath with an owner/funder who is willing to put money in forever with no prospect of getting it back. Sooner or later the house of cards collapses - look at Yorkshire Carnegie.

So why hasn't the house of cards collapsed for 99% of these teams then? They've been at it for over 20 years now.

The Scarlets have gone from a rusty old tin bucket stadium playing in front of 4,000 people to a state of the art stadium, a £7m wage bill and doubled their crowds. They haven't once made a profit in their entire existence. I think that rather blows apart your dreadful logic.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 11:20 am

If clubs want to take the risk they obviously can but it is a balancing act.

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Post by BamBam on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 11:23 am

There's a massive anti-Italian agenda on here, yet again, yet the moderators just let everybody carry on. This place at times picard

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Post by Irish Londoner on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 11:25 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:

Can you explain what's corrupt about the Irish model? It seems to work well for them and has transformed Irish rugby over the last 20 years.

Yes happy to - the IRFU own 4 teams and swap players around to make all of them as competitive as possible. This is something that is banned in most other pro sports. And was vetoed by the English only recently. As it is corruption .
And are you happy to chuck Italian rugby to the wall just so Scarlets can get humped by Saracens twice a year?

Very happy.

So basically as long as the Welsh club sides get to play the English you'd be happy to collapse professional rugby in Italy, alienate the Scots and Irish teams and unions and end up as the poodles of the English? You should send you CV to Bruce Craig, I'm sure he's got a job for you.

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 11:31 am

Irish Londoner wrote:

So basically as long as the Welsh club sides get to play the English you'd be happy to collapse professional rugby in Italy, alienate the Scots and Irish teams and unions and end up as the poodles of the English? You should send you CV to Bruce Craig, I'm sure he's got a job for you.

Yup. Not my concern I'm afraid. Welsh rugby (in my opinion) has enough to deal with on it's own plate let alone before it has some sort of moral conscience for what is happening in an office in Rome thrust upon it for goodness sake. Clubs should be looking out for themselves. What makes the Irish different (re. selfish) is that they are unwilling to adhere to a less corrupt, transparent model to benefit everybody.

Also, no bugger ever remembers the Irish and Scots throwing the Welsh out of the Celtic league in 2005. They seemed pretty happy for Welsh rugby to collapse then. I guess that's different though. Because Wales.

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Post by BamBam on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 11:41 am

That's fine, and makes complete sense. I disagree with it, but that is your prerogative

Why you are then upset with the Irish for not being willing to change their model to benefit others doesn't quite tally with that

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 11:45 am

BamBam wrote:That's fine, and makes complete sense. I disagree with it, but that is your prerogative

Why you are then upset with the Irish for not being willing to change their model to benefit others doesn't quite tally with that

I just explained - because it's based around corruption, and would benefit all. They want to keep their non transparent finances and multiple ownership of teams. Without this they can't gerrymander and manipulate their top level via the Pro14.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 11:49 am

So the welsh should look after themselves but the irish should look after the Welsh. Or the english should look after the welsh. Or someone should!

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 11:51 am

First things first let's stop the wru paying players wages to put them out of the reach of english clubs. Clearly an unfair advantage.

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 11:53 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:So the welsh should look after themselves but the irish should look after the Welsh. Or the english should look after the welsh. Or someone should!

Everyone should look after themselves. No problem with that.

But when a glaringly obvious brilliant opportunity for NH club rugby is put on the table, and 1 nation refuses to adopt it, making it's introduction unlikely - that is a bit of a shame.

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Post by BamBam on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 11:56 am

Using inflammatory terms like corruption doesn't make it true

If Wales don't need to look out for anyone else, neither do Ireland. As it stands their structure is perfectly legal and accepted by the rules of the competition they are entered in. If Wales are willing to throw Italian and Scottish rugby out the window then I don't understand why you think Ireland should do anything to benefit others


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Post by carpet baboon on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 12:03 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:Why are posters obsessing over "profit"? Rugby Union has rarely been a sport that makes a profit. That won't change soon.

Wales won the Grand Slam, yet the WRU will make a loss of £5m this year.


CVC will only be about profit. That's it for them. Profit is the only thing that matters to them.

In my humble (and quite possibly very wrong opinion) CVC , like the PRL before them, have a bigger target than club rugby.
They want to a slice of the International revenue.
They can't buy into it outright so if they can get control of enough club rugby they can then start to demand more from the RUs. (Also haven't they got a toe hold in the six Nations)
Make the unions give over power to them or they withhold the players.

It's simple about how to maximise investment into returns for the share holders.
Player welfare??? They don't care

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 12:05 pm

BamBam wrote:Using inflammatory terms like corruption doesn't make it true

If Wales don't need to look out for anyone else, neither do Ireland. As it stands their structure is perfectly legal and accepted by the rules of the competition they are entered in. If Wales are willing to throw Italian and Scottish rugby out the window then I don't understand why you think Ireland should do anything to benefit others


I'm not going to write it three times. It seems you just don't understand much at all.

Just go back to your anti Welsh rhetoric. It's easier for everyone.

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Post by carpet baboon on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 12:07 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So the welsh should look after themselves but the irish should look after the Welsh. Or the english should look after the welsh. Or someone should!

Everyone should look after themselves. No problem with that.

But when a glaringly obvious brilliant opportunity for NH club rugby is put on the table, and 1 nation refuses to adopt it, making it's introduction unlikely -  that is a bit of a shame.

It's obviously brilliant for the Welsh (in your opinion)

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 12:10 pm

carpet baboon wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:Why are posters obsessing over "profit"? Rugby Union has rarely been a sport that makes a profit. That won't change soon.

Wales won the Grand Slam, yet the WRU will make a loss of £5m this year.


CVC will only be about profit. That's it for them. Profit is the only thing that matters to them.

In my humble (and quite possibly very wrong opinion) CVC , like the PRL before them, have a bigger target than club rugby.
They want to a slice of the International revenue.
They can't buy into it outright so if they can get control of enough club rugby they can then start to demand more from the RUs. (Also haven't they got a toe hold in the six Nations)
Make the unions give over power to them or they withhold the players.

It's simple about how to maximise investment into returns for the share holders.
Player welfare??? They don't care

Yeah I agree with that. CVC are investors. They will make profit if they see a gap. But the notion that the owners and clubs are going to suddenly start being awash with tens of millions is wide of the mark. It needs to happen.

I think this will all tie in with BT Sport downsizing their tv offers in sports like rugby. When that happens PRL will be wondering how to plug that financial gap - and that's where creating a new competition comes in. That's where CVC's influence comes in.

So when people say "What's in it for the English" - the answer is trying to maintain the TV deal revenue. As ever - money.


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Post by BamBam on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 12:11 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
BamBam wrote:Using inflammatory terms like corruption doesn't make it true

If Wales don't need to look out for anyone else, neither do Ireland. As it stands their structure is perfectly legal and accepted by the rules of the competition they are entered in. If Wales are willing to throw Italian and Scottish rugby out the window then I don't understand why you think Ireland should do anything to benefit others


I'm not going to write it three times. It seems you just don't understand much at all.

Just go back to your anti Welsh rhetoric. It's easier for everyone.

Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it corrupt. Crying about anti Welsh rhetoric just proves the victim mentality thumbsup

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 12:13 pm

carpet baboon wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So the welsh should look after themselves but the irish should look after the Welsh. Or the english should look after the welsh. Or someone should!

Everyone should look after themselves. No problem with that.

But when a glaringly obvious brilliant opportunity for NH club rugby is put on the table, and 1 nation refuses to adopt it, making it's introduction unlikely -  that is a bit of a shame.

It's obviously brilliant for the Welsh (in your opinion)

It would be brilliant for everybody involved. But the Irish won't go for it - because the trade off of a bit more money for their opaque structure is not a goer for them. Welsh domestic rugby has to have this happen for any chance of real success. That's not a throwaway statement. It's a reality based on the entire history of pro rugby.

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Post by Irish Londoner on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 12:14 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So the welsh should look after themselves but the irish should look after the Welsh. Or the english should look after the welsh. Or someone should!

Everyone should look after themselves. No problem with that.

But when a glaringly obvious brilliant opportunity for NH club rugby is put on the table, and 1 nation refuses to adopt it, making it's introduction unlikely -  that is a bit of a shame.

No one has said the Irish would reject it, like everyone else they'd want some confirmation over what exactly it entailed, but it would be great for Irish rugby to play some of the best teams in England more regularly and it would be a boost for the local economies of Dublin, Belfast, etc, with all the English fans coming over, not to mention the numbers of Irish who would swell the gates at the English clubs.

To take this back to the original point of a B & I or an Anglo-Welsh league, I'm still waiting to see what the English clubs benefit from it would be? It's a bit like the Scottish fans who constantly harp on about how Celtic and Rangers would be up there with Man City and Liverpool as the biggest clubs in Europe if only they could be in the English Premier League and have access to it's money.

Of course that may be true, as it would be equally true if Ajax or Anderlecht got parachuted into the English league as well, however no one in the English league wants them - the top clubs wouldn't want the competition from the better PRO14 sides and the lower clubs would fear being pushed even further down the ladder - so there's no benefit in it for the English unless CVC come up with more money for them but then they'd have to come up with more for the PRO14 side to make it competitive for them, which makes the argument circular.

And there's still no logical/business reason why they'd want the Welsh in particular....

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 12:17 pm

BamBam wrote:

Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it corrupt.

It's corrupt by definition. It's not allowed in most sports because it is manipulation. It's corruption. In the very basic sense of sports - manouevring players around the teams in a competition to make those teams stronger is fundamentally corrupt and anyone with even half a brain can see this.

Crying about anti Welsh rhetoric just proves the victim mentality thumbsup

Oh I'm not a victim. I quite enjoy your rants. I think you must have actually been the victim at some point. My guess would be either nicked by a Welsh copper. Or some valley lad stole your wife.

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Post by LordDowlais on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 12:19 pm

Ignoring the English wums on here with their anti-Welsh agenda. There seems to be a lot of Irish supporters who are very strongly against this ?

Can I ask why ? Genuinely ?

Being opposed to something is all fine, but there is almost a strong, strong resistance to this from our Irish members on here.

The way I look at it, to compete in a world, where the juggernaut that is football and the way it is going in the British Isles is smothering all other sports, then this is the only way forward. England cricket has just won the world cup, now that sport is on the map, the last thing we want is the sport we love getting left behind.

We must evolve with the times, a B&I rugby union league would be massive. Everybody would be clamouring to get a piece of it, the TV companies would be fighting tooth and nail for it, sponsors would be throwing themselves at it.

I cannot see anything but good for ALL our countries if this were to happen.


Last edited by LordDowlais on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 12:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 12:20 pm

Irish Londoner wrote: I'm still waiting to see what the English clubs benefit from it would be?
Of course that may be true, as it would be equally true if Ajax or Anderlecht got parachuted into the English league as well, however no one in the English league wants them - the top clubs wouldn't want the competition from the better PRO14 sides and the lower clubs would fear being pushed even further down the ladder - so there's no benefit in it for the English unless CVC come up with more money for them but then they'd have to come up with more for the PRO14 side to make it competitive for them, which makes the argument circular.

And there's still no logical/business reason why they'd want the Welsh in particular....

I've said about 3 times now - more money from a bigger tv deal. There is more likelihood of a B and I league than an anglo welsh for this reason. Because the welsh alone won't be able to up the deal enough.

But then as pointed out, the Irish are unlikely to go for it because their corruption would likely have to stop.

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 12:21 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Ignoring the English wums on here with their anti-Welsh agenda. There seems to be a lot of Irish supporters who are very strongly against this ?

Can I ask why ? Genuinely ?

Being opposed to something is all fine, but there is almost a strong, strong resistance to this from our Irish members on here.

The way I look at it, to compete in a world, where the juggernaut that is football and the way it is going in the British Isles is smothering all other sports, then this is the only way forward. England cricket has just won the world cup, now that sport is on the map, the last thing we want is the sport we love getting left behind.

We must evolve with the times, a B&I rugby union league would be massive. Everybody would be clamouring to get a piece of it, the TV companies would be fighting tooth and nail for it, sponsors would be throwing themselves at it.

I cannot see anything but good for ALL our countries if this were to happen.

Because their engineering and manipulation of rugby and opaque finances would have to stop.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 12:28 pm

And the welsh union would have to stop topping up wages and allow their players to be snapped up by the English or French.

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Post by BamBam on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 12:28 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
BamBam wrote:

Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it corrupt.

It's corrupt by definition. It's not allowed in most sports because it is manipulation. It's corruption. In the very basic sense of sports - manouevring players around the teams in a competition to make those teams stronger is fundamentally corrupt and anyone with even half a brain can see this.

Crying about anti Welsh rhetoric just proves the victim mentality thumbsup

Oh I'm not a victim. I quite enjoy your rants. I think you must have actually been the victim at some point. My guess would be either nicked by a Welsh copper. Or some valley lad stole your wife.

Laugh Laugh Laugh

"Its not fair and I'm going to scweam and scweam till I get what I want" is the general gist of your posts, so definitely a victim.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 12:29 pm

And the money is unlikely to go up for english clubs and they'd be likely to have to give up control.

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Post by BamBam on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 12:29 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:And the welsh union would have to stop topping up wages and allow their players to be snapped up by the English or French.

Funny how that isn't considered to be corrupt Doh

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 12:30 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:And the welsh union would have to stop topping up wages

Eh? They're already doing that. With the exception of Alun Wyn Jones, there are to be no more dual contracts apparently.

Welsh players will always go overseas. No problem with that.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 12:41 pm

Isnt it Bam

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Post by Irish Londoner on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 12:46 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote: I'm still waiting to see what the English clubs benefit from it would be?
Of course that may be true, as it would be equally true if Ajax or Anderlecht got parachuted into the English league as well, however no one in the English league wants them - the top clubs wouldn't want the competition from the better PRO14 sides and the lower clubs would fear being pushed even further down the ladder - so there's no benefit in it for the English unless CVC come up with more money for them but then they'd have to come up with more for the PRO14 side to make it competitive for them, which makes the argument circular.

And there's still no logical/business reason why they'd want the Welsh in particular....

I've said about 3 times now - more money from a bigger tv deal. There is more likelihood of a B and I league than an anglo welsh for this reason. Because the welsh alone won't be able to up the deal enough.

But then as pointed out, the Irish are unlikely to go for it because their corruption would likely have to stop.

The current BT Sport deal with PRL is somewhere around £200 million over four years = £50 million a year divided by 12 teams that's £4.2 million a year. To get the same money from a B & I league they'd have to sign a deal for 24 teams worth £100 million a year just to stay still - to say bring it up to £6 million a year you'd be asking the TV companies for £144 million a year - £576 million over a four year contract - the question is who is going to pay that - it values a B & I league at more than the rights to the English football league and is unlikely to draw anything like the viewing figures worldwide that the top end Championship clubs like, Leeds, Derby and Cardiff would get.


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 12:47 pm

And would have the potential to devalue the European competition.

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Post by LordDowlais on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 12:51 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:And would have the potential to devalue the European competition.


That has already happened. For my liking, that competition has no future. OK

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 12:54 pm

If that comp has no future how would this league fair differently. Theres just to many different agendas and priorities for a league or conference system this large.

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