England World Cup Warm Ups

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:28 am

First topic message reminder :

Don't expect the snazzy pics produced on better match threads!

England Wales 11th August
Wales England 17th August
England Ireland 24th August
England Italy 6th September.

Squad for the world cup is due 2nd September so theres a chance the 1st 3 could be used for selection purposes and likely to see some combos not considered 1st choice.

BBC saving me typing:

England: Daly; McConnochie, Slade, Francis, Watson; Ford, Heinz; Genge, Cowan-Dickie, Cole, Launchbury, Ewels, Curry, Underhill, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Singleton, Marler, Williams, Kruis, Ludlam, Youngs, Marchant, Cokanasiga.

Wales: L Williams; North, J Davies, Parkes, Adams; Anscombe, G Davies; Smith, Owens, Francis, Beard, Jones, Wainwright, Tipuric, Moriarty.

Replacements: Dee, Jones, Lewis, Ball, Shingler, T Williams, Biggar, Watkin.


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:10 am

Would expect 11.

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Post by Brad71090 on Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:10 am

BamBam wrote:Is the team announcement today? Usually on Thursdays isn't it

Can't see any mention of it on twitter currently but I would guess it will just come out today out of the blue.

I think Defence and game plan are key. Hopefully Eddie will have in mind the shapes and flow he wants to see.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:11 am

Actually sunday kick off would be Friday normally.

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Post by robbo277 on Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:31 pm

It's a Six Nations rule that you have to announce your team 48 hours (or more) before kick off.

With no such rule in place, Eddie might stick to 48 hours and announce some time tomorrow, or not. Although autumn internationals often follow the same convention with no hard-and-fast ruling, so I'd guess tomorrow.

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Post by Brad71090 on Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:48 pm

Should be Friday now as no news

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:33 pm

Rugby World Cup: England wing Jack Nowell an injury doubt - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/49270375

Self explanatory.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:25 am

Christian wade making american football look really easy I see.

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:52 am

Well it would just be typical of Jones to get to the end of these warm ups then call Wade wouldn't it.

Nowells injury wouldn't be a big deal if all the wingers weren't covering full back.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:40 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Christian wade making american football look really easy I see.

https://youtu.be/I8d11hkDGX8

nice score on debut

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Post by BamBam on Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:49 am

Nice run, but to caveat it was the 4th quarter of a pre season game so would have been 3rd string defenders at best, and a lot of them will be cut from the squads before the real games start

Would be great to see him make it into the regular season squad though

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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:54 am

Yeah it would fun to watch. Fair deuce to him.

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Post by robbo277 on Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:14 am

England World Cup Warm Ups - Page 4 EBhRX37WkAY-oVT?format=jpg&name=large

England team named. Wales team also out.

Williams, North, J Davies, Parkes, Adams, Anscombe, G Davies; Smith, Owen, Francis, Beard, AWJ (c), Wainwright, Tipuric, Moriarty.

Reps: Dee, W Jones, Lewis, Ball, Shingler, Williams, Biggar, Watkin

Time for a match thread?

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Post by Soul Requiem on Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:17 am

Wales look pretty much at full strength whilst England have gone for a very experimental team with only 5/6 players I'd expect to see starting in the WC, looks very much like a side made up of players playing for a squad role.

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Post by robbo277 on Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:20 am

Things to note -

Curry and Underhill on the flanks but Curry at 6
Watson and Daly in the back 3 but Daly at 15
Heinz a vice captain on debut

Heinz and McConnochie will win their first caps. Singleton, Ludlum and Marchant will win their first caps if they come off the bench.

It's not a full second team but maybe a 1.5 team. It possibly shines a bit more of a light into where Eddie's head is at going into the World Cup. This may be his starting back row in which case having Wilson and Ludlum as his two back-ups isn't a bad option. Wilson can bench and cover all 3 positions, and if we are looking at the 2x 7s format then we need a third in Ludlum more than we need a blindside.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:29 am

England's centre combo is awful. No balance whatsoever. Feel for Ford, I mean give the lad a strike runner his strength is taking the ball to the line and he's got two distributors alongside him, one of whom should be nowhere near the squad.

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Post by BamBam on Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:33 am

Seems like he's throwing them in the deep end against a full strength Wales side to see who sinks. Better to find out now rather than in the tournament

Warm ups are all about testing the players, so seems reasonable enough

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:34 am

That's a statement of a selection from Gatland, with the intention of delivering a statement of a performance.

Uncomfortable for him if they lose now!

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Post by hugehandoff on Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:40 am

Strange choices from Eddie. I have no issue in experimenting at this stage but poor old Ford has no gain line runners in midfield. I fear England will be overpowered in the backs. Of course we need to see these players in action but surely he cannot make decisions based on just 1 match? Launchbury v Ewels for the final squad. Most of the backs bolters playing together does not give them a fair chance. And the whole scrum half ithing s just odd. But pleased to see the back row combo


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Post by LondonTiger on Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:42 am

So which big mouth stated quite categorically that Eddie would not pick Curry and Underhill in the same back row? Damned fool whoever he was.


anyway that is with a few exceptions very much a second string squad. First choice to look something like:

Daly, Cokanasiga, Slade, Tuilagi, May, Farrell, Youngs, Billy, Curry/Underhill/Wilson (perm 2 from 3), Itoje, Kruis, Sinckler, George, Mako.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:43 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:That's a statement of a selection from Gatland, with the intention of delivering a statement of a performance.

Uncomfortable for him if they lose now!

Having picked a full strength lineup for Sunday what will he do for the return fixture?

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:46 am

That probably depends on the result on Sunday. If they lose, he might not make the changes he had planned. If they win, then there's the incentive of seeing if they can beat England again with a more experimental side.

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Post by robbo277 on Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:47 am

LondonTiger wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:That's a statement of a selection from Gatland, with the intention of delivering a statement of a performance.

Uncomfortable for him if they lose now!

Having picked a full strength lineup for Sunday what will he do for the return fixture?

Would he want to simulate back to back tests with his A team? Then do something different for the Ireland game?

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:52 am

robbo277 wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:That's a statement of a selection from Gatland, with the intention of delivering a statement of a performance.

Uncomfortable for him if they lose now!

Having picked a full strength lineup for Sunday what will he do for the return fixture?

Would he want to simulate back to back tests with his A team? Then do something different for the Ireland game?


I had not realised Wales have a week off after next weeks game. 

For this week Eddie's selection seems to suggest he is putting performance ahead of result and by throwing so many novices in at the same time looking to see who has the character needed. My main worry is that the lack of many strike runners could see too much reliance on BillyV.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:59 am

Very much looks like jones is using these games as warm ups doesn't it.  I've posted the teams from the BBC in the OP, assuming they've just got it wrong and Wyn Jones is Alum Wyn Jones?


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Post by robbo277 on Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:07 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
robbo277 wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:That's a statement of a selection from Gatland, with the intention of delivering a statement of a performance.

Uncomfortable for him if they lose now!

Having picked a full strength lineup for Sunday what will he do for the return fixture?

Would he want to simulate back to back tests with his A team? Then do something different for the Ireland game?


I had not realised Wales have a week off after next weeks game. 

For this week Eddie's selection seems to suggest he is putting performance ahead of result and by throwing so many novices in at the same time looking to see who has the character needed. My main worry is that the lack of many strike runners could see too much reliance on BillyV.

He has Genge to help him out, and Cowan-Dickie and Launchbury can chip in, but neither are the kind to drag 3 defenders over the gainline.

I guess in the backs we'll have players looking to run at weak shoulders rather than through people. Daly and Watson are both good enough players to attack the line from deep at an angle and beat a defender if they can get a 1-on-1. I guess it's what happens on slow ball, and I'd guess there might be quite a lot of kicking.

Next week we'll probably see something like:

Mako, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Kruis, Lawes, Ludlum, Wilson, Youngs, Farrell, May, Tuilagi, Joseph, Cokanasiga, Watson(?) in Cardiff. Which will be a stronger side but not quite our strongest. The back row is the obvious area, and then there are question marks on 13, 14 and 15. If Brown is called up we could see him at 15, but it would probably require Nowell's injury to be serious and a nightmare game from McConnochie this week to see him in.

I think we'll then look to bring it together for the Ireland test and then play a change side for the Italy test. So then we'll have a better idea of how we're looking for the World Cup.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:07 pm

LondonTiger wrote:So which big mouth stated quite categorically that Eddie would not pick Curry and Underhill in the same back row? Damned fool whoever he was.


anyway that is with a few exceptions very much a second string squad. First choice to look something like:

Daly, Cokanasiga, Slade, Tuilagi, May, Farrell, Youngs, Billy, Curry/Underhill/Wilson (perm 2 from 3), Itoje, Kruis, Sinckler, George, Mako.

He he he i know who it was...

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:09 pm

The opposite of what everybody thought would happen, for the home match EJ puts out a side with only 4 or 5 certain starters and Gats puts out a full strength 23.

I think we are going to see a lot of short balls to players coming in from different angles and taking the ball flat. There is a ridiculous amount of pace in that back three and three playmakers in the centre field to let them loose from anywhere.

I can see all of that back row hitting the line at pace and setting either each other or the speedsters free.

Don't agree with your comment presumably aimed at Francis FKAS. He can truck it up, has more pace then any of our heavy weights that play at 12 i.e. Manu and good hands. He was making breaks for fun in the last 1/4 of the season and was the main reason Saints backs ran riot.

Wales are so strong defensively that we need the flair players to break them down. That pack actually looks pretty heavy and solid, not sure about the mobility of it baring 6 and 7.

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Post by lostinwales on Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:26 pm

At first glance it looks like a tough job for that England team, but there is bags of pace if they can force gaps in what is a slower Welsh team, and you have two 7's to reinforce midfield defense.

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Post by Mr Bounce on Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:28 pm

Intriguing to see how Curry and Underhill will work together. Also Francis may not be top drawer but he's a pretty decent player and a great distributor.

I am expecting a Wales win based on their team but let's not forget that last winter nobody gave us a prayer against NZ with a depleted front row and scratch back row, yet we only lost by 1 and if Lawes had managed to get to that ball onside we would have had a famous victory.

This is going one of 2 ways: Wales win, and continue their run of games unbeaten. England win by not being under pressure to win and play brilliantly, thus causing Eddie selection headaches.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:32 pm

There's not a lot to gain for Wales with their selection.

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Post by TightHEAD on Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:36 pm

Wales are playing their 1st team

Can't see what they will gain apart from a win vs a 2nd string England team at Twickers.

Great opportunity to target AWJ.
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Post by Poorfour on Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:40 pm

TightHEAD wrote:Wales are playing their 1st team

Can't see what they will gain apart from a win vs a 2nd string England team at Twickers.

Great opportunity to target AWJ.

Moriarty is probably more important to them right now. With Faletau out, he's their last No 8 with international experience in the position
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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:47 pm

What worries me is the lineout, both Ewels and Launchbury are at best okay, neither is an AWJ, Curry or Underhill as the other option, again neither renown for their lineout work.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:52 pm

Ewels is better than ok in the lineout but it's an area that I'm sure wales will target given LCD can have the occasional off day. Get that aspect right and we'll be pretty well set. Reckon we can get the upper hand come scrum time.

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Post by Mr Bounce on Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:00 pm

Looking forward to seeing how Heinz organises the team and also who goes to 10 if Ford gets injured. Am guessing Slade.

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Post by lostinwales on Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:08 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:What worries me is the lineout, both Ewels and Launchbury are at best okay, neither is an AWJ, Curry or Underhill as the other option, again neither renown for their lineout work.

The Welsh lineout isn't all that great either.

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Post by robbo277 on Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:08 pm

For all the talk of this England side, the players selected and the inexperience, we have 4 Lions on the pitch and 3 more on the bench.

Wales have 6 or 7 starting (did Ken Owens go? I think he did) and 1 further on the bench.

I think our sub tight 5 is stronger. We both have a highly experienced half back as a finisher, but then we've got Marchant and Cokanasiga who are both exciting players. Marchant will obviously add more of a running threat with his outside arcs while Cokanasiga will bring some extra power.

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Post by robbo277 on Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:09 pm

Mr Bounce wrote:Looking forward to seeing how Heinz organises the team and also who goes to 10 if Ford gets injured. Am guessing Slade.

Would assume so, but Francis is also another option. Think he played there in NZ for a bit?

I guess he's saying to Ford that he wants him to run the show for the whole 80 minutes. I assume he'll have to do similarly against the US.

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Post by RiscaGame on Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:13 pm

robbo277 wrote:For all the talk of this England side, the players selected and the inexperience, we have 4 Lions on the pitch and 3 more on the bench.

Wales have 6 or 7 starting (did Ken Owens go? I think he did) and 1 further on the bench.

I think our sub tight 5 is stronger. We both have a highly experienced half back as a finisher, but then we've got Marchant and Cokanasiga who are both exciting players. Marchant will obviously add more of a running threat with his outside arcs while Cokanasiga will bring some extra power.

Ken Owens went. He was the one at the end of the third test, who caught the accidental knock on Wink

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Post by Brad71090 on Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:56 pm

Very Happy for Marchant been quin's best player for a season or 2.

Not sure this is the best time to trail uncapped players but what do we know ey?

Hope he gets on and carves up. Massive Welsh team. It's a win win for Eddie in terms of the game. They lose it's against a full strength Welsh team, if they win then it's a massive boost and selection headache.

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Post by robbo277 on Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:24 pm

Brad71090 wrote:Very Happy for Marchant been quin's best player for a season or 2.

Not sure this is the best time to trail uncapped players but what do we know ey?

Hope he gets on and carves up. Massive Welsh team. It's a win win for Eddie in terms of the game. They lose it's against a full strength Welsh team, if they win then it's a massive boost and selection headache.

One way to avoid second season syndrome?

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Post by Brad71090 on Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:27 pm

robbo277 wrote:
Brad71090 wrote:Very Happy for Marchant been quin's best player for a season or 2.

Not sure this is the best time to trail uncapped players but what do we know ey?

Hope he gets on and carves up. Massive Welsh team. It's a win win for Eddie in terms of the game. They lose it's against a full strength Welsh team, if they win then it's a massive boost and selection headache.

One way to avoid second season syndrome?

I guess so.

I agree with what a lot of people are saying on twitter etc that it's a good test of character to see if some of the squad have what it takes to step up.

It's an England team packed with pace and playmakers. Not a lot of grunt though.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:29 pm

Brad71090 wrote:It's a win win for Eddie in terms of the game. They lose it's against a full strength Welsh team, if they win then it's a massive boost and selection headache.

Yep. The pressure's on Wales, which is very odd for a game at HQ.

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Post by king_carlos on Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:41 pm

Terrific back row for England. Awful centre partnership.

Interested to see how McConnochie does. He's got the all round game to step-up as well as real gas to burn when finishing.

Ewels and Cowan-Dickie will be an interesting partnership at the line-out. Particularly given that Launchbury is the weakest jumper out of England's locks and none of the backrow are strong jumpers. I could see an early Kruis replacement there if things go south.

I'm very happy that Ludlam is still in the training squads and getting a chance.

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Post by robbo277 on Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:49 pm

My mind goes back to the last non-Six Nations game the two teams played at Twickenham. 2016, clashed with the Premiership final and England were shorn of some of their big names and Wales turned up with a near enough full strength side, and England won quite comfortably. Comparing an end of season friendly to a World Cup warm-up may be apples and oranges, but that was a game I expected us to lose or at least not win so comfortably.

England's line-up that day was:
Mullan, Hartley, Cole, Launchbury, Lawes, Harrison, Haskell, Clifford
Youngs, Ford, Yarde, Burrell, Joseph, Watson, Brown
Taylor, Genge, Hill, Attwood, Kvesic, Care, Devoto, Daly.

Wales:
Evans, Baldwin, Lee, Ball, Jones, Moriarty, Lydiate, Faletau
Webb, Biggar, Amos, Roberts, Williams, North, Williams
Dacey, Jenkins, Jones, Turnbull, King, Williams, Priestland, Anscombe

4 debuts in that England squad. England players that had been used in the Six Nations playing in the Premiership final were Mako, Itoje, Kruis, Billy, Farrell, George, Cowan-Dickie and Nowell. Meanwhile 10 of the Wales starting team that day had played in the 2016 Six Nations game 3 months previously (1 of those changes was Webb returning from injury which strengthened them).

But Wales are a better team than they were in 2016 and England are probably not at their 2016 level.

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Post by king_carlos on Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:59 pm

robbo277 wrote:For all the talk of this England side, the players selected and the inexperience, we have 4 Lions on the pitch and 3 more on the bench.

Wales have 6 or 7 starting (did Ken Owens go? I think he did) and 1 further on the bench.

I think our sub tight 5 is stronger. We both have a highly experienced half back as a finisher, but then we've got Marchant and Cokanasiga who are both exciting players. Marchant will obviously add more of a running threat with his outside arcs while Cokanasiga will bring some extra power.
3 Lions on the pitch? Billy V didn't travel in the end. Daly, Watson and Cole are all capped Lions though.

The big issues for England will be the line-out where the Ewels-LCD partnership is against AWJ-Owens. Then the centre imbalance with Parkes/JD2 against Francis/Slade.

Finally the same issue that undid England against Wales in the 6 Nations. The lack of a standout full-back option against Liam Williams often ridiculous high ball skills.

It's an extremely unoriginal viewpoint for me to hold but I don't see Piers Francis as an international centre. He's a good Prem player but I'm yet to see anything to suggest he has any standout skill set to help him make the step-up.

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Post by Brad71090 on Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:26 pm

The backs bar scrum half, 10 & 12 have me excited.

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Post by robbo277 on Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:31 pm

king_carlos wrote:
robbo277 wrote:For all the talk of this England side, the players selected and the inexperience, we have 4 Lions on the pitch and 3 more on the bench.

Wales have 6 or 7 starting (did Ken Owens go? I think he did) and 1 further on the bench.

I think our sub tight 5 is stronger. We both have a highly experienced half back as a finisher, but then we've got Marchant and Cokanasiga who are both exciting players. Marchant will obviously add more of a running threat with his outside arcs while Cokanasiga will bring some extra power.
3 Lions on the pitch? Billy V didn't travel in the end. Daly, Watson and Cole are all capped Lions though.

The big issues for England will be the line-out where the Ewels-LCD partnership is against AWJ-Owens. Then the centre imbalance with Parkes/JD2 against Francis/Slade.

Finally the same issue that undid England against Wales in the 6 Nations. The lack of a standout full-back option against Liam Williams often ridiculous high ball skills.

It's an extremely unoriginal viewpoint for me to hold but I don't see Piers Francis as an international centre. He's a good Prem player but I'm yet to see anything to suggest he has any standout skill set to help him make the step-up.

Fair point on Billy. But he would have been a Lion were it not for injury and possibly would have been capped too, so it's fair to talk of him in that echelon.

I'm trying to be positive and possibly playing devil's advocate to an extent but regarding Francis, is Te'o any better? Te'o is a solid international player, but does he do anything special? He has 20/30 caps, mostly as a substitute and I can think of the try he scored against France as a meaningful contribution to a game.

If Eddie has seen enough of Francis (who has looked good in his limited International time and apparently playing well at club level) to say he's better than Te'o, who's decent, then Francis should hopefully be decent or better.

And if he turns out trash Eddie can still dump him. Best find out now!

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Post by hugehandoff on Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:18 pm

And does the Wales selection mean that they effectively swap for the return fixture? Did Eddie and Warren agree this approach?

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Post by Pie on Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:47 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:There's not a lot to gain for Wales with their selection.

So much to gain

Win is 15/15

Beat potential 1/4 opponent at home

Momentum

Make Eddie's squad selection face an acid test in a week

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