At last.... Justice prevails...

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Post by No9 on Sun 11 Aug 2019, 12:57 am

At last a ref who's not afraid to referee the All Blacks correctly, resulting in correct IRB rankings...

Well don Wales........ No1 spot at last and deserved since at least 2005.


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Not been a fan of Garcès but he's made my Christmas card list... Hug

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Post by maestegmafia on Sun 11 Aug 2019, 5:50 am

It’s good to see dangerous actions get their just rewards but I wouldn’t say that the All Black of the last few years have been a dirty team. They’ve been very smart at playing the referee, better than almost any team but they won their games through ability not skullduggery

I am sure Garcès is setting a precedent for the upcoming Rwc that no arm tackles will be punished harshly and directly.

This incident could mean Barrett now misses the RWC.

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Post by ebop on Sun 11 Aug 2019, 6:29 am

That type of tackle happens in every game. It has set a precedent so let’s see it enforced in every future game. I doubt it will though and only a rogue referee like Garces will randomly pull it up.
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Post by maestegmafia on Sun 11 Aug 2019, 6:37 am

ebop wrote:That type of tackle happens in every game. It has set a precedent so let’s see it enforced in every future game. I doubt it will though and only a rogue referee like Garces will randomly pull it up.

It has definitely been pulled up far more this year than ever before. A few notable incidents have escaped referees but on the whole they are doing a valuable job.

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Post by carpet baboon on Sun 11 Aug 2019, 7:10 am

It started in the u20s world cup. Looks like it will continue. Hope it does as it's the only way players will learn

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Post by jimbopip on Sun 11 Aug 2019, 9:30 am

I can't see what some people are getting upset about: it's a clear red everyday of the week and twice on Sundays. Hooper has been tackled, is held and is going to ground, Barrett then quite deliberately puts his shoulder and elbow into his, unprotected, head. It was dangerous and should have no place in rugby. Too many players are suffering concussion and the IRB have a duty of care to their employees. A red card all day long.

The only way Barrett could have got away with it would be if his name was Owen Farrell. At last.... Justice prevails... 1347041234

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Post by The Great Aukster on Sun 11 Aug 2019, 10:26 am

maestegmafia wrote:It’s good to see dangerous actions get their just rewards but I wouldn’t say that the All Black of the last few years have been a dirty team. They’ve been very smart at playing the referee, better than almost any team but they won their games through ability not skullduggery

I am sure Garcès is setting a precedent for the upcoming Rwc that no arm tackles will be punished harshly and directly.

This incident could mean Barrett now misses the RWC.
In general the All Blacks haven't had to be a dirty team. They were brutal though in their revenge attack on Ireland in 2016 where they set out and achieved their target of letting Ireland feel the pain of retribution. From the 1st minute hit on O'Brien, then Cane taking out Henshaw with a shoulder to the head, Dagg dispatching Stander with a knee to the head, to what should have been a Fekitoa red card, the ABs were pure black in heart and soul. The citing stats after the game said it all with 11 for the ABs against one for Ireland.
Peyper showed his complete inadequacy during the game yet World Rugby protected him and their AB brand afterwards. World Rugby need the All Blacks to look their fiercest during the haka but tend to look the other way when they are at their fiercest. Barrett is safe and the only further action may be that WR get Peyper to brief Garces on which way to look when officiating the team from New Zealand.

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Post by Gooseberry on Sun 11 Aug 2019, 10:54 am

As the worlds best team will that referee bias now shift into Wales' favour?

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Post by The Great Aukster on Sun 11 Aug 2019, 11:00 am

Gooseberry wrote:As the worlds best team will that referee bias now shift into Wales' favour?

Have World Rugby adopted them as their new brand yet?

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Post by Taylorman on Sun 11 Aug 2019, 11:00 am

I just hope they keep the position for more than a week. If England and NZ win do they lose it again?

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Post by maestegmafia on Sun 11 Aug 2019, 1:28 pm

Taylorman wrote:I just hope they keep the position for more than a week. If England and NZ win do they lose it again?

If England win by more than fifteen wales move to third. If kiwis beat the Ozzies by more than fifteen and wales beat England then NZ go top.

LT always seems to know how the rankings points work, if he’s reading I’m sure he will advise on the likely outcomes?

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Post by Barney McGrew did it on Sun 11 Aug 2019, 4:07 pm

oops
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Post by Shifty on Sun 11 Aug 2019, 4:11 pm

The rankings are just plain daft.
New Zealand are no longer totally dominant, Australia and South Africa have clearly improved.

Wales can beat France, Ireland and England at home, but would probably lose 2 of the 3 games away.

I'd say Wales are probably 4th or 5th in the world at the moment.
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Post by Collapse2005 on Sun 11 Aug 2019, 5:08 pm

maestegmafia wrote:It’s good to see dangerous actions get their just rewards but I wouldn’t say that the All Black of the last few years have been a dirty team. They’ve been very smart at playing the referee, better than almost any team but they won their games through ability not skullduggery

I am sure Garcès is setting a precedent for the upcoming Rwc that no arm tackles will be punished harshly and directly.

This incident could mean Barrett now misses the RWC.

I would describe them as a dirty side, well at least relative to other sides anyway.

Id say Barrett will get 2 or 3 weeks and still go to the RWC which is fine.


Last edited by Collapse2005 on Sun 11 Aug 2019, 7:03 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Taylorman on Sun 11 Aug 2019, 6:33 pm

No9 wrote:At last a ref who's not afraid to referee the All Blacks correctly, resulting  in correct IRB rankings...

Well don Wales........ No1 spot at last and deserved since at least 2005.


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Since 2005, the period you say Wales should be no 1 they’ve played NZ 13 times.
Lost 13 from 13 at 35-13 average, giving up 30 points on 10 of those.

Yep, fully deserved. Laugh Now let’s see what they do with it. Maintaining the number one ranking for ten years under the current system would be more difficult that winning five world cups.

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Post by Shifty on Sun 11 Aug 2019, 6:41 pm

Taylorman wrote:Since 2005, the period you say Wales should be no 1 they’ve played NZ 13 times.
Lost 13 from 13 at 35-13 average, giving up 30 points on 10 of those.

Yep, fully deserved.  Laugh  Now let’s see what they do with it. Maintaining the number one ranking for ten years under the current system would be more difficult that winning five world cups.

No sane Welsh person thinks Wales were ever ranked 1, we haven't beaten NZ since the 50's.  
I grew up thinking keeping New Zealand within 35 points was a good achievement, and hoped we'd concede less than 50 in the game.

You can't blame Welsh fans for being happy we won a grand slam and have actually beaten Australia and South Africa recently though.  Invariably Wales will fall flat on our faces and crash spectacularly within a year though, we always manage to find a way self destruct somehow. Hug
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Post by Taylorman on Sun 11 Aug 2019, 7:34 pm

Yes agree, being happy is one thing. I guess recently if you win enough and stay away fom NZ at the same time the systems gonna kick in. At least by losing to England they’ve got the streak off their back. At this point it’s a hindrance more than a plus. Wales need to find out what it’s like to lose again and what their weaknesses are to improve going into the World Cup.

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Post by maestegmafia on Sun 11 Aug 2019, 7:50 pm

Taylorman wrote:Yes agree, being happy is one thing. I guess recently if you win enough and stay away fom NZ at the same time the systems gonna kick in. At least by losing to England they’ve got the streak off their back. At this point it’s a hindrance more than a plus. Wales need to find out what it’s like to lose again and what their weaknesses are to improve going into the World Cup.

Just had a few beers with some old welsh friends who watched the game and we were saying the same thing. Today’s game was a benefit far more than a hindrance to our chances. Of course we would have loved to see a win but England deserved their result. George Ford was masterful Watson fast and smart, the pack full of power. But it shows where wales need to work in the last few weeks before they go to Japan.

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Post by ebop on Sun 11 Aug 2019, 9:20 pm

ebop wrote:That type of tackle happens in every game. It has set a precedent so let’s see it enforced in every future game. I doubt it will though and only a rogue referee like Garces will randomly pull it up.
Haven’t seen the incidents in the Wales v England game but EJ had this to say:

“England coach Eddie Jones has labelled Scott Barrett's red card as 'ridiculous' calling on World Rugby to be consistent after he claimed two Welsh players escaped red cards following similar offences against England today”

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12257640
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Post by Taylorman on Sun 11 Aug 2019, 10:03 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Yes agree, being happy is one thing. I guess recently if you win enough and stay away fom NZ at the same time the systems gonna kick in. At least by losing to England they’ve got the streak off their back. At this point it’s a hindrance more than a plus. Wales need to find out what it’s like to lose again and what their weaknesses are to improve going into the World Cup.

Just had a few beers with some old welsh friends who watched the game and we were saying the same thing. Today’s game was a benefit far more than a hindrance to our chances. Of course we would have loved to see a win but England deserved their result. George Ford was masterful Watson fast and smart, the pack full of power. But it shows where wales need to work in the last few weeks before they go to Japan.

Exactly, but its all about how realistic you think winning the world cup is. Losing one of these friendly's was a must for Wales at this point if theyre going to be competitive. No point winning all the way through then under the utmost pressure finding out what your weaknesses are. Wales would be dreaming if they think theyre going to keep winning until the cups finished. Theyre nowhere near good enough to do that, no one is.

Pre world cup losses were critical for the AB's in getting the right prep in 2011 and 2015, but we didnt know that at the time. Now we can embrace it withut thinking our world is falling apart. Thats why everyone else is 'panicking on our behalf' feeding the masterplan by telling us we are no good. Unbeknownst to them, they are helping the side by doing so, because the ABs have learned criticism and coping with adversity after a loss is an extemely valuable tool.

Whether theyre actually good enough is irrelevant, provided they put the best they can be out into those key knockout matches. thats all they can do,.

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Post by Taylorman on Sun 11 Aug 2019, 10:15 pm

jimbopip wrote:I can't see what some people are getting upset about: it's a clear red everyday of the week and twice on Sundays. Hooper has been tackled, is held and is going to ground, Barrett then quite deliberately puts his shoulder and elbow into his, unprotected, head. It was dangerous and should have no place in rugby. Too many players are suffering concussion and the IRB have a duty of care to their employees. A red card all day long.

The only way Barrett could have got away with it would be if his name was Owen Farrell. At last.... Justice prevails... 1347041234

What people are getting upset about is, and ebop has one already, less than 24 hours after the AB red...

“England coach Eddie Jones has labelled Scott Barrett's red card as 'ridiculous' calling on World Rugby to be consistent after he claimed two Welsh players escaped red cards following similar offences against England today”

I don't agree with the first part. Under todays rules and particularly the intention of those rules- player safety- it as red all day. The issue is the recent application of the rule is increasing in occurrance all of a sudden and players and Referees are inconsistent in the take up.

The recent Under 20 had from memory two or three reds for the same reason and undoubtedly skewed the scores, if not the results.

The risk is that it dominates the World cup and that can happen in a couple of ways:
- the players remain slow in learning what is acceptable and we get a raft of reds
- the above, except that we get an inconsistent application of the rule and some sides get reds, some dont.

Already, Jones has found inconsistency. In a tournament of many tests in a short period, either of the above has the potential to make the tournament a farce. But as players are clearly still doing it, high risk of serious injury remains, and warrants serious penalty, red a minimum.

But people being people, results matter as well, and chances are that both players and Refs are gonna get this wrong, possibly big time.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Sun 11 Aug 2019, 10:26 pm

ebop wrote:
ebop wrote:That type of tackle happens in every game. It has set a precedent so let’s see it enforced in every future game. I doubt it will though and only a rogue referee like Garces will randomly pull it up.
Haven’t seen the incidents in the Wales v England game but EJ had this to say:

“England coach Eddie Jones has labelled Scott Barrett's red card as 'ridiculous' calling on World Rugby to be consistent after he claimed two Welsh players escaped red cards following similar offences against England today”

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12257640

Oh well Eddie said it so it must be true. He is not one for talking shoite at all.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Sun 11 Aug 2019, 10:39 pm

I can't remember an incident in the game today that would warrant being a red card.

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Post by Taylorman on Sun 11 Aug 2019, 10:43 pm

Shifty wrote:The rankings are just plain daft.  
New Zealand are no longer totally dominant, Australia and South Africa have clearly improved.  

Wales can beat France, Ireland and England at home, but would probably lose 2 of the 3 games away.

I'd say Wales are probably 4th or 5th in the world at the moment.    

Agree, imagine Federer being ranked second to someone who he had beaten the last 30 in a row. Would never happen anywhere but rugby. Mind you, if rankings were based on a straight points per test, i.e fairly, it would be years before a new number one would be found, so its clearly meant to move teams around to add interest.

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Post by The Oracle on Sun 11 Aug 2019, 11:02 pm

Taylorman wrote:
Shifty wrote:The rankings are just plain daft.  
New Zealand are no longer totally dominant, Australia and South Africa have clearly improved.  

Wales can beat France, Ireland and England at home, but would probably lose 2 of the 3 games away.

I'd say Wales are probably 4th or 5th in the world at the moment.    

Agree, imagine Federer being ranked second to someone who he had beaten the last 30 in a row. Would never happen anywhere but rugby. Mind you, if rankings were based on a straight points per test, i.e fairly, it would be years before a new number one would be found, so its clearly meant to move teams around to add interest.


No one complains about the world rankings until they’re moved about on the leader board to a position they’re not happy with! It is a fact of life. It is what it is. It is an objective measure at the end of the day, whether fans like it or not! It is a far better measure than the oft used method of ranking teams based on beating someone who beat someone else but who lost to someone different, as we so often do on here.
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Post by Taylorman on Sun 11 Aug 2019, 11:20 pm

Oh weve had that view of the rankings forever, its just topical now. And your who beat who scenario is exactly what happened. We lost to Oz and Wales go to top without even doing anything, even worse, doesnt even have to play let alone beat the top side. Its an odd system no matter how you look at it. At least in the World cup you have to be in the same country to finish ahead of someone. And Im not sure your who beat who is 'a far better measure' than allowing a side who has lost 13 straight in 14 years to the one theyre replacing is 'far better'. Its absurd. Anyway, its just an observation, I dont care if someone else goes to 1 as its just another thing to chase again...chasing is good.

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Post by No9 on Sun 11 Aug 2019, 11:51 pm

All, I’m not going to reply to individuals, but thought you’d have realised my opening post was all tongue in cheek.

I’ve been on record in the past to say the IRB rankings are shoite. Even if we had won today, I’d have a smile at being No1 but would never have said it was just.

As for today’s game, we where out played. But to all those who said 4 tough warm up games as Wales have is barmy. I say, Garland is spot on as we all know Wales are slow starters, and playing at this intensity will be good for our RWC preparation.

Also agree with Taylorman, losing will be better for us than if we won all 4. It gets the unbeaten run monkey off our back.

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Post by Taylorman on Mon 12 Aug 2019, 1:41 am

All good, Wales will start getting better now with the spotlight off them. No. 1 and a win over England would have everyone at the beach enjoying the sun and a cold one instead of learning exactly what is needed for Japan. Was a good match actually. England look good but Wales will improve. Looking forward to the next few of these. thumbsup


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Post by BigTrevsbigmac on Mon 12 Aug 2019, 6:19 am

Losing good for us now is it?

Before the game it was all about continuing the momentum, settled side, tinkering at the edges, happy faces in training. Beating England & confirming the no. 1 status.
Contrast that with England, ‘ running scared’, injuries , in fighting, shambles.

At the end of the day it’s a World Cup warm up game & Wales were well beaten by a mostly second team squad.

Wales can’t afford to start slow in a knock out competition likewise England need to work on their second half performances. We seem to set off like a train & tail off badly.

The return fixture will be interesting Wales at home, England with their Sarries contingent returning.
I expect another England victory.

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Post by maestegmafia on Mon 12 Aug 2019, 6:51 am

Shifty wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Since 2005, the period you say Wales should be no 1 they’ve played NZ 13 times.
Lost 13 from 13 at 35-13 average, giving up 30 points on 10 of those.

Yep, fully deserved.  Laugh  Now let’s see what they do with it. Maintaining the number one ranking for ten years under the current system would be more difficult that winning five world cups.

No sane Welsh person thinks Wales were ever ranked 1, we haven't beaten NZ since the 50's.  
I grew up thinking keeping New Zealand within 35 points was a good achievement, and hoped we'd concede less than 50 in the game.

You can't blame Welsh fans for being happy we won a grand slam and have actually beaten Australia and South Africa recently though.  Invariably Wales will fall flat on our faces and crash spectacularly within a year though, we always manage to find a way self destruct somehow. Hug

I agree, I don’t think anyone thought wales were a better team than New Zealand, the rankings stand for consistency and going forward as pointed out in another thread over the next few weeks there are so many permutations that anyone one of about five teams could be ranked numero uno going into the tournament.

When I was a lad wales had only ever lost to New Zealand once and that was against the Invincibles. The abilities of George Nepia and the Brownlee brothers were folklore. We’ve had a pretty poor run since then, even when we had good teams they managed to just beat us.

Wales will be in good shape going into this RWC. I’m sure the ABs will too.

How we will do after the RWC with a new coaching team remains to be seen and that for me is the real acid test for welsh rugby as a whole. The transitional periods have often been tough. It’s been a great fall from where the game was once in wales to what it became by the early 90s. It’s been a massive rebuilding job and that is far from complete.

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Post by robbo277 on Mon 12 Aug 2019, 7:01 am

Taylorman wrote:
Shifty wrote:The rankings are just plain daft.  
New Zealand are no longer totally dominant, Australia and South Africa have clearly improved.  

Wales can beat France, Ireland and England at home, but would probably lose 2 of the 3 games away.

I'd say Wales are probably 4th or 5th in the world at the moment.    

Agree, imagine Federer being ranked second to someone who he had beaten the last 30 in a row. Would never happen anywhere but rugby. Mind you, if rankings were based on a straight points per test, i.e fairly, it would be years before a new number one would be found, so its clearly meant to move teams around to add interest.

The way the rankings work gives more weighting to more recent tests.

For example, two teams were on 80 points and played each other twice on neutral territory. Team A wins the first game and gains 1 point for 81, Team B is down on 79. Team B wins the second game and, as they are ranked below Team A now, they win more than 1 point and end up on 80.2 (for argument). Despite a 1-1 series tie between two equally ranked teams, Team A find themselves below on 79.8.

Wales have won 14 of their last 15 games, most if not all against Tier 1 sides with some at home and some away. In that time, New Zealand have suffered a big loss to Australia, a home draw against South Africa, an away loss to Ireland and a home loss against South Africa.

If New Zealand beat Australia this weekend and Wales beat England, then Wales will be ranked number 1 by a sliver of a margin. But their recent record is better, even if their record against New Zealand isn't all that much.

The rankings aren't a predictor of future results, so if Wales played NZ at neutral territory in the World Cup you couldn't just say "well the rankings...". They're an indicator of form and an effort to apply an objective measure.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 14 Aug 2019, 10:46 am

Barrett given a 3 week ban (6 weeks reduced to 3 for blah bla blah).

It should be noted that the charge was under Law 9.16 – a player must not charge or knock down an opponent without attempting to grasp the player.

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Post by Brendan on Wed 14 Aug 2019, 6:07 pm

I know everyone has moved on but my take on it is as follows

Barrett went to make contact with Hooper (or fell over) as he comes forward and starts to lower his body towards the player.
Regardless of the first tackle affecting him, he should be making an attempt to look like his hands/arms will make a tackle.
He drops his shoulder into Hooper who is falling so has the reactions time to adjust his body to make contact.
He hits him in the head, on purpose with no attempt to tackle.  Clear red under the old rules as much as the new rules.  It's not like the Cips red v Munster which had no force.  This tackle had force and moved Hoppers head back towards his chest while his body continued to move forward putting alot of pressure on his neck.

The only time we see events like this not punished is at the breakdown v a person trying to get the ball not the ball carrier, which we all feel should be carded but isn't.

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Post by robbo277 on Thu 15 Aug 2019, 6:02 am

LondonTiger wrote:Barrett given a 3 week ban (6 weeks reduced to 3 for blah bla blah).

It should be noted that the charge was under Law 9.16 – a player must not charge or knock down an opponent without attempting to grasp the player.

So in meaningful weeks, that will be the game against Australia this week, the game against Tonga (I believe) pre-World Cup and the first game against South Africa?

Unless the ABs have another squad friendly or anything they're going to claim as they did with Sonny Bill.

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 15 Aug 2019, 8:46 am

Press is saying he is clear to play against SA.

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Post by robbo277 on Thu 15 Aug 2019, 8:56 am

LondonTiger wrote:Press is saying he is clear to play against SA.

I'm sure he probably will, but I'm struggling to see how.

Sent off 10th August. 3 week ban backdated to this date.
W/C 12th August - fixture vs Australia (17th) - Week 1 of ban served
W/C 19th August - no fixture
W/C 26th August - no fixture
W/C 2nd September - fixture vs Tonga (7th) - Week 2 of ban served
W/C 9th September - no fixture
W/C 16th September - fixture vs South Africa (21st) - Week 3 of banned serve

Leaving him free to play Canada.

I wonder which week they would have released him to his club to play in a game, and whether they'll be releasing other players to play in matches between the Australia game and the Tonga game?

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Post by Rugby Fan on Thu 15 Aug 2019, 10:04 am

I read he would see out the ban by missing a couple of Mitre 10 games.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 15 Aug 2019, 10:06 am

Rugby Fan wrote:I read he would see out the ban by missing a couple of Mitre 10 games.

What else would you expect

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Post by Soul Requiem on Thu 15 Aug 2019, 10:15 am

Would only happen to a NZ player.

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Post by BamBam on Thu 15 Aug 2019, 10:21 am

Well its a ban in terms of weeks, what else would he do. I'm pretty sure all the other sides would do exactly the same

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Post by robbo277 on Thu 15 Aug 2019, 10:49 am

Rugby Fan wrote:I read he would see out the ban by missing a couple of Mitre 10 games.

Yeah, probably.

But there is a condition in the rules that the player would have been likely to be selected, had he not been banned. Surely it could be pointed to the fact that no other NZ squad players are released for the Mitre 10 to show that he wouldn't have been released.

Not having a pop at NZ. Everyone does it/would do it. It's just the rule that is not fit for purpose.

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Post by ebop on Thu 15 Aug 2019, 11:55 am

SBW has just finished a 2 game stint in the Mitre10 and now playing for the ABs this week
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Post by Rugby Fan on Thu 15 Aug 2019, 12:02 pm

Ebop is right. NZ sometimes send All Blacks to the Mitre 10 competition to give them game time.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 15 Aug 2019, 12:39 pm

There is no chance Barrett would have been playing in the Mitre 10 cup.

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Post by ebop on Thu 15 Aug 2019, 12:43 pm

Rieko Ioane, Ben Smith and Owen Franks might get a run this week in the Mitre10 as SBW did, as could have Barrett
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Post by Soul Requiem on Thu 15 Aug 2019, 12:55 pm

With Retallick injured there is absolutely no chance that would have happened.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 15 Aug 2019, 12:55 pm

Thats because they have all been dropped. SBW was short on game time. Given top quality locks are sparse in NZ at the moment Barrett was never getting dropped and its pretty unlikely he was going to play Mitre 10.

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Post by ebop on Thu 15 Aug 2019, 12:56 pm

After this weekend Barrett could have had a run around in Mitre10 to keep fit
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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 15 Aug 2019, 12:58 pm

ebop wrote:After this weekend Barrett could have had a run around in Mitre10 to keep fit

Sure Ebop

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Post by ebop on Thu 15 Aug 2019, 1:00 pm

You never know Guns, guess we’ll find out what the plan was when Barrett is named on the Bench in game 1 of the RWC.
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