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Post by KP_fan on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:08 am

First topic message reminder :

Soul Requiem wrote:Cummins was out no doubt about that, not sure what he was complaining about to be honest, a clear noise and deviation off the bat.

why were there 2 deviations?
one clearly before the ball had passed the bat and nothing seemed to be touching anything then...and the second when ball passes the bat.
Both deviations looking similar...put a question mark over the correct functioning of Snicko

that said 3rd umpire could have done nothing different than upholding the onfield ump
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Post by Duty281 on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 9:29 am

Another overturned decision...that's about five or six for the test, I think? Not great.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 9:40 am

Wade getting runs here would really bring forth the Paine issue for the Aussie selectors...
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Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 9:43 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Wade getting runs here would really bring forth the Paine issue for the Aussie selectors...
Wade said on interview after Birmingham that he’s not a keeper anymore.

If Paine retains the Ashes he essentially secures his place until March 2020 when Smith will become captain again.

Khawaja should be the one looking over his shoulder

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Post by alfie on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 9:45 am

Duty281 wrote:Another overturned decision...that's about five or six for the test, I think? Not great.

Slight improvement on Lord's , I suppose.

England not having much luck here ...that Leach lbw shout could so easily have been given on field , and would then have stayed.

Has been a good fierce spell from Stokes. But I think he's just about cooked now. Can't see how they are going to take six more wickets before the lead goes substantially over 300 . And rather hard to see this England outfit chasing anything like that , even if batting conditions continue to get easier.

This Australian team has a fine bowling attack but very ordinary batsmen. But they have applied themselves here better than the home team and that is why they will be clinching the Ashes some time over the next couple of days. Lot of credit to Labuschagne...big shoes to fill but he's done a first rate job OK

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 9:52 am

Stokes bowled a very good, lengthy spell. Deserved more than one scalp. Could have had two if Root clung on.

Labuschagne has struggled out there in this innings, but he's got the grit and patience to try and ride it out; Smith's injury has inadvertently revealed another challenging Australian obstacle that England are struggling to surmount.

Lead up to 245...England need another collapse like last night's one. On comes Jofra.

Oh dear, Archer hobbles off mid-way through the over. As if Root's day couldn't get worse. Just cramp?

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 9:54 am

And they’ve broken Archer. Things just get better!
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Post by alfie on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 9:54 am

Archer hobbling off injured ...that's all we need Sad

Hopefully just cramp. Hopefully.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 9:57 am

Good work Root you over rated waste of space.

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 10:05 am

And now Stokes denied because he over-stepped. When it rains...

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Post by alfie on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 10:10 am

Duty281 wrote:And now Stokes denied because he over-stepped. When it rains...

Yeah. Would have been a good review again by England ...that is one thing they've largely got right in this series !

Labuschagne continues to enjoy his good fortune. Should buy a lottery ticket tonight...

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 10:14 am

Got to love Winviz. England have an 11% chance of winning. laughing

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Post by Born Slippy on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 10:17 am

Do we lose a review for the no ball one? Surely not as all it shows is that the umpire got it doubly wrong?

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Post by alfie on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 10:18 am

Stokes is looking pretty tired now...has been throwing everything into it. Need to make sure he isn't the next injury casualty...

Amazingly England keep picking five bowlers and still ending up short of fresh ones...while Australia make do with four quite comfortably. Something to do with a bit of patience from the batsmen , perhaps . Plus Paine trusts all his bowlers while Root , seemingly , does not.

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 10:19 am

Born Slippy wrote:Do we lose a review for the no ball one? Surely not as all it shows is that the umpire got it doubly wrong?

No, England keep their review.

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Post by alfie on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 10:19 am

Born Slippy wrote:Do we lose a review for the no ball one? Surely not as all it shows is that the umpire got it doubly wrong?

No. Keep the review in that case.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 10:24 am

alfie wrote:Stokes is looking pretty tired now...has been throwing everything into it.  Need to make sure he isn't the next injury casualty...

Amazingly England keep picking five bowlers and still ending up short of fresh ones...while Australia make do with four quite comfortably. Something to do with a bit of patience from the batsmen , perhaps .  Plus Paine trusts all his bowlers while Root , seemingly , does not.

Aussies have a proper spinner
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Post by Duty281 on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 10:30 am

Not content with over bowling Archer, Root is keen to send Stokes to the physio table as well. 12th over on the bounce. Doesn't trust Leach or Woakes?

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 10:33 am

England missing everything in the field. Stokes could have had a five-for by now!

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Post by alfie on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 10:33 am

Wonder when Denly comes on for a bit of light relief ? They will want to keep the proper bowlers on as long as they can ; but at some point it will be clear the game is lost and they'll need to preserve their bodies.

265 ahead is already looking a stiff target.

Feels wrong to give up and turn in while Stokes is giving his all out there...but it is getting very late here. And I'm running out of faith in miracles Smile

Stokes still going ! Twelve overs now...top marks for effort clap

Perhaps he feels he owes them after the dreadful shot he played to get out this morning.

Oh blimey ! Now Labuschagne edges and Jonny can't cling on diving in front of slip...poor Ben...

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Post by alfie on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 10:36 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
alfie wrote:Stokes is looking pretty tired now...has been throwing everything into it.  Need to make sure he isn't the next injury casualty...

Amazingly England keep picking five bowlers and still ending up short of fresh ones...while Australia make do with four quite comfortably. Something to do with a bit of patience from the batsmen , perhaps .  Plus Paine trusts all his bowlers while Root , seemingly , does not.

Aussies have a proper spinner

You don't rate Leach , Olly ? He's not in Lyon's class but I think he could bowl a bit more.

Good to see Archer back out there !

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 10:36 am

Honestly how demoralising must it be to be an England bowler? No rest, flogged into the ground and any chances are seemingly shelled anyways
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Post by Soul Requiem on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 10:37 am

Root is rivaling Flintoff for worst England captain I can remember, has no clue how to manage his bowling resources at all, the game is done just bowl Leach from one end and give the quicks some relief.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 10:38 am

alfie wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
alfie wrote:Stokes is looking pretty tired now...has been throwing everything into it.  Need to make sure he isn't the next injury casualty...

Amazingly England keep picking five bowlers and still ending up short of fresh ones...while Australia make do with four quite comfortably. Something to do with a bit of patience from the batsmen , perhaps .  Plus Paine trusts all his bowlers while Root , seemingly , does not.

Aussies have a proper spinner

You don't rate Leach , Olly ?  He's not in Lyon's class but I think he could bowl a bit more.

Good to see Archer back out there !

He’s going at 4 and a half an over here in pretty helpful conditions - I think he’s got potential, but as we stand at the moment I’m not sure he’s particularly good, too many pitches too short for my liking
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Post by Duty281 on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 10:45 am

Wade gone. I'm pleased for Stokes, who looks absolutely shattered.

Paine needs a score.

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Post by alfie on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 10:45 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
alfie wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
alfie wrote:Stokes is looking pretty tired now...has been throwing everything into it.  Need to make sure he isn't the next injury casualty...

Amazingly England keep picking five bowlers and still ending up short of fresh ones...while Australia make do with four quite comfortably. Something to do with a bit of patience from the batsmen , perhaps .  Plus Paine trusts all his bowlers while Root , seemingly , does not.

Aussies have a proper spinner

You don't rate Leach , Olly ?  He's not in Lyon's class but I think he could bowl a bit more.

Good to see Archer back out there !

He’s going at 4 and a half an over here in pretty helpful conditions - I think he’s got potential, but as we stand at the moment I’m not sure he’s particularly good, too many pitches too short for my liking

Yes that's a fair summary , I think. Not exactly the next Swann...even so I'd give him a bit more use than Root has. He was taken off too quickly after his initial wicket , I thought.

In news just in , Stokes has a wicket ! Talk about deserved... 163/5 as Wade departs.

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Post by JDizzle on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 10:48 am

Peak Wilson there. No way he gave that out caught!

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 10:48 am

Paine doesn't get a score. Hit it? Apparently.

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Post by alfie on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 10:49 am

Umpire seemed reluctant to give Wade out ...

Given Paine out now though...if he wasn't lbw he was caught...caught it is.
Reward for Broad.

Into the tail Smile

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Post by JDizzle on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 10:50 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
alfie wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
alfie wrote:Stokes is looking pretty tired now...has been throwing everything into it.  Need to make sure he isn't the next injury casualty...

Amazingly England keep picking five bowlers and still ending up short of fresh ones...while Australia make do with four quite comfortably. Something to do with a bit of patience from the batsmen , perhaps .  Plus Paine trusts all his bowlers while Root , seemingly , does not.

Aussies have a proper spinner

You don't rate Leach , Olly ?  He's not in Lyon's class but I think he could bowl a bit more.

Good to see Archer back out there !

He’s going at 4 and a half an over here in pretty helpful conditions - I think he’s got potential, but as we stand at the moment I’m not sure he’s particularly good, too many pitches too short for my liking

It’s only one innings though to be fair - and one when Australia are totally dominant. He’s proved he can be useful in helpful conditions, he deserves the chance to develop as a holding bowler in English conditions.

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 10:51 am

If England can roll the tail again, we're still in Mark Butcher heroism territory.

Not sure who's going to be Mark Butcher though...

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Post by VTR on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 10:52 am

Aussies showing their batting is total garbage. A shame England's is an even lower level that there isn't really a term to describe. This is a desperately poor Aussie team and we are getting thrashed by them, as our batting is probably the worst lineup since the mid 90s

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Post by alfie on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 10:56 am

Leach may face the old problem that he's seen as a batting rabbit - despite the ninety against Ireland. If England wanted to field , say , Archer Broad and Anderson...the temptation would be to go for a spinner who could bat at eight.

It is too early to be judging him , really. But my suspicion is he will end up more an "Asian conditions specialist"

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 10:59 am

England desperate to get another over in - not really sure why?

Gritty half-century for Labuschagne...nearly batted as long as the entire England 1st innings!

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Post by alfie on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 11:01 am

Fifty for Labuschagne clap

Consistent fellow ! If he has had rather a charmed existence this innings , he deserves it for concentration and effort.

280 lead as we near the close : tomorrow will be ugly , I fear . But good to have seen England's bowlers battling it out this evening. Wish the batting unit could show the same fight two Tests in a row...

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 11:06 am

I think Australia will be mildly frustrated they haven't properly killed this game off, and look set to 'only' leave a target in the low 300s for England. Still, it'll be enough. Game could be done by stumps tomorrow.

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Post by alfie on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 11:10 am

Duty281 wrote:If England can roll the tail again, we're still in Mark Butcher heroism territory.

Not sure who's going to be Mark Butcher though...

Joe Denly , of course Smile

Doubt the tired bowlers will be able to roll the tail tomorrow though. Think they will be chasing 350...good luck with that !

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Post by EnglishReign on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 11:34 am

It'll be a cakewalk from here. I can see Roy getting into the high teens.

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Post by No name Bertie on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 11:46 am

I suppose the good news is that it is not going to be a 5-0 hammering on home soil.  Archer is a real find - I just hope he is not over used resulting in a breakdown further down the road.  The batting has simply lacked discipline - it is as if their heads have gone.

ps for Australia Labuschagne is a real find.  Smith and Labuschagne should make for a formidable pairing - cannot wait to see them playing together in the fourth test.

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Post by No name Bertie on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 11:54 am

Soul Requiem wrote:Root is rivaling Flintoff for worst England captain I can remember, has no clue how to manage his bowling resources at all, the game is done just bowl Leach from one end and give the quicks some relief.
General consensus seems to be he is rubbish as captain (and it is adversely impacting on his batting) - but no-one can decide who should replace him as captain.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 11:59 am

JDizzle wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
alfie wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
alfie wrote:Stokes is looking pretty tired now...has been throwing everything into it.  Need to make sure he isn't the next injury casualty...

Amazingly England keep picking five bowlers and still ending up short of fresh ones...while Australia make do with four quite comfortably. Something to do with a bit of patience from the batsmen , perhaps .  Plus Paine trusts all his bowlers while Root , seemingly , does not.

Aussies have a proper spinner

You don't rate Leach , Olly ?  He's not in Lyon's class but I think he could bowl a bit more.

Good to see Archer back out there !

He’s going at 4 and a half an over here in pretty helpful conditions - I think he’s got potential, but as we stand at the moment I’m not sure he’s particularly good, too many pitches too short for my liking

It’s only one innings though to be fair - and one when Australia are totally dominant. He’s proved he can be useful in helpful conditions, he deserves the chance to develop as a holding bowler in English conditions.

Oh for sure deserves a run, I’m just saying at the moment he’s miles off a Lyon for example, thus why england use him sparingly (as they did Moeen) - and rely on their seamers. He could get there who knows!
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Post by king_carlos on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:01 pm

I know lots of posters here won't like it but I could see Ballance recalled for the winter tours. He has deficiencies at test level no doubt but so do all the other options in the top 3.

1.Burns
2.Sibley
3.Ballance
4.Root
5.Stokes
6.Roy
7.Foakes (wk)

Wouldn't be at all surprised to see a top 7 such as that in NZ with Buttler and Bairstow rested.

Compared to Roy this series what would England fans give for Sam Robson averaging 30 at the top of the order!

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Post by KP_fan on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 2:12 pm

Well what a classic
" Don't judge the pitch/ match situation until both teams have batted" applies

If Warner and Labuscagne had been dismissed for 10 to 15 runs apiece then the first innings would have been in balance and those 96 runs off 20 Woakes & Stokes were indeed expensive and I noted that even yesterday.

There are times when there is a session that changes a match and sometimes the entire series....it was that for Eng today .......No Smith, won the toss, bowled Aus out for what looked like a low total.....and then 67a.o was a knock-out punch.

It's hard to see how they can avoid a 4-0 now that Smith will be back and Labuschange is in so good form and Warner getting some runs.

Eng need a change of leadership and a new coach and let Root bat at 4 minus captaincy.
And Whoa what happened  to Archer?...went down like a balloon   whose hot air all leaked.Shocked

He's  good but need to be handled with care and brought first change and used in short sharp spells
Eng will chase 400+ ( on this pitch  Shocked   )and get bowled out for 150 is how the prognosis I sense it will unfold
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Post by JDizzle on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 2:43 pm

king_carlos wrote:I know lots of posters here won't like it but I could see Ballance recalled for the winter tours. He has deficiencies at test level no doubt but so do all the other options in the top 3.

1.Burns
2.Sibley
3.Ballance
4.Root
5.Stokes
6.Roy
7.Foakes (wk)

Wouldn't be at all surprised to see a top 7 such as that in NZ with Buttler and Bairstow rested.

Compared to Roy this series what would England fans give for Sam Robson averaging 30 at the top of the order!

Sam Northeast should get a go too. I think both him and Ballance would be better bets than Sibley, but we do need an opener I guess.

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Post by alfie on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 10:08 pm

Still trying to process that awful day after sleep and reflection...

First : hats off to Australia clap

Brilliant bowling ; fine catching ...and a bunch of , let us face it , pretty ordinary batsmen , battled it out well enough to have forged what is surely a winning lead. They planned well for this series , have stuck to their plans while adjusting when needed - and refused to be rattled by the loss of their one great batsman. Contrast to England who give an impression they came into the series as a World Cup afterthought ...and who apparently thought this match would be a walkover in the absence of Smith.
Both teams getting what they deserved.

But , as has been pointed out again and again , this is now the fourth time England have been skittled for less than 100 in the last year or so. Every time because they persist in trying to attack their way out of trouble instead of digging in and wearing good bowlers down...

How many times before the penny drops ?

Just seen batting coach Thorpe saying they won't make many changes because these are the best players available and they just have to execute their skills better. He is probably right - more or less ; though a couple of them clearly aren't fit for purpose in this format and this should be faced up to. But the problem surely is that this "fix bayonets , charge !" attitude has to be coming from the coaches ; despite all the clear evidence that it is a road to disaster...

Looking at this particular collapse : Roy did what he always does. Chased a ball to slip . No surprise. Root got a great ball...can happen anytime ...but more likely when he is exposed so early - again.
Then Burns - who does show promise - fell to an unnecessary shot to a short ball . The short ball is what he is always going to get now and he has to learn to deal with it. But dodging would be better than trying to hit it. Some fairly ordinary Australian batsmen have done quite well in surviving Archer's fierce bouncer attack at even greater pace : let them tire themselves out !
Then Stokes - the hero of Lord's - played about the worst get out shot I've seen since ...oh , Roy at Edgbaston Smile ... Why the devil chase a near wide at 20/3 ??? Insane.

From there it was just about done. Denly had battled gamely enough but he just isn't quite good enough at this level and sure enough eventually did a classic "Vince" . You could see that the two (slightly shellshocked?) JBs were now batting with muddled minds : what to do ? Try to defend ...or follow the team game plan and take the game back to the bowlers? Jonny edged with an indecisive attempt to cover his stumps and Jos just slapped to cover...lunch came half an hour too late.
Even the tail didn't know what to do ...no Sam Curran to save them as he did so often last year with a mix of clean hits and chancing his luck. Total surrender...

Are they really that bad ? I don't think they are. But unless they can get rid of this stupid attack at all cost mentality we are doomed to repeat this again and again on all but the flattest pitches.
Would love to see some sensible batting second innings , whatever they end up chasing. They won't get the 320 plus , of course ; but with ample time left and (hopefully) decent batting conditions I'd still like to see what a bit of common sense application of basic batting tactics might achieve in the way of respectability . Who knows ? It might catch on...

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 11:22 pm

Who are the others waiting? I always felt Malan had something about him and I’d have thought he would be suited to playing against the bounce fest.

Northeast, Malan, Sibley, Crawley, Ballance, Foakes? Bit of Curran? Keaton is probably dead now

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Post by robbo277 on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 1:38 am

Right. Positivity time.

England need to come out, bowl on the money and blast through the tail. Get 4 wickets in an hour and they have a chance, so go all out in this first hour.

This will set them 300 and change. In nearly 3 days in a Day 3 pitch (which wont even be a "full" day 3 pitch, as Day 1 had no play). That is not an impossible chase. If they were starting their third innings now, you wouldn't rule out 300. It's not unbattable out there.

It will be tough. It will require sticking in. But it is not impossible if they apply themselves and show a bit of fight. This is an Ashes series and this is their last chance to stay in it.

That's the roadmap to success today. Ask the overworked bowlers for one burst to give you a chance, then unrelenting application with the bat. If two batsman make tons then 300+ is doable. Channel the spirit of Shai Hope.

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Post by VTR on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 2:03 am

The Shai Hope Test though was a bit of a run fest, and England only lost it by dangling a generous declaration target, - an early example of Root's abysmal captaincy. The Mark Butcher Test was also only possible thanks to a generous declaration

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Post by robbo277 on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 2:07 am

320 is not an impossible ask on Day 3.

It's unlikely because our batsman either aren't very good, are our of form or both. But it shouldn't be beyond the reach of a team of talented players applying themselves.

Given England of the last few years we're more likely to crumple for 100ao. But that doesnt mean as fans we should accept that.

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Post by VTR on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 2:10 am

Agree in principle, you could imagine this being a second or third innings and that would not be a ridiculous score. Reality though is with shockers like Roy and Denly in the team, and the actual Test class players in woeful form England won't get near even if Aussies didn't score any more runs from where they are now

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 2:16 am

It's also another gorgeous day in God's country, no heavy and dark cloud. Just pure sunshine and coming up to 25 degrees. If England can apply themselves, sure they've got a decent chance. It's a good batting track with a slight bit of turn. Bat four sessions and you win the game. Issue is...they won't apply themselves! They'll merely gift wicket after wicket to the gleeful Australians. Oh well.

I hope England take inspiration from the Hampshire 1922 team. Unperturbed by being bowled out for 15 in their first innings, Hampshire roared back to make 521 in the second innings and subsequently won by a healthy margin.

http://static.espncricinfo.com/db/STATS/BY_CALENDAR/1920S/1922/ARCHIVE_1922/ENG_LOCAL/CC/WARWICKS_HANTS_CC_14-16JUN1922.html

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