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Post by KP_fan on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 8:08 am

First topic message reminder :

Soul Requiem wrote:Cummins was out no doubt about that, not sure what he was complaining about to be honest, a clear noise and deviation off the bat.

why were there 2 deviations?
one clearly before the ball had passed the bat and nothing seemed to be touching anything then...and the second when ball passes the bat.
Both deviations looking similar...put a question mark over the correct functioning of Snicko

that said 3rd umpire could have done nothing different than upholding the onfield ump
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Post by alfie on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 3:13 pm

Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:
alfie wrote:
Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:It’s funny to think just a few days ago plenty of the pundits declared Archer’s arrival, and subsequent absence of Smith, ‘changed the entire dynamic of the series’

In a certain aspect they where correct, Australia dropped a medium pacer and added a third fast bowler.

Funnier still their quickest bowler might not get a single match on the series.

True.  If Archer hitting Smith has ignited a "bouncer war" , then it has rebounded on England as the Aussie pace men have been more effective in the actual wicket taking , if not quite as fast.  Their planned bowler rotation has worked like a charm...

Also with regards to Archer, he's been hindered by Woakes hardly bowling his 'fair share'. Heck poor old Stokes bowled 33 overs in his match considerably more than the actual third seamer

Indeed. Still don't quite understand the Woakes situation : was on fire late in the World Cup , and a bag of wickets against Ireland . He bowled well enough at Edgbaston...then mysteriously was overlooked for most of the Lord's match. And had a poor spell on Thursday.
I don't think he's been well handled ; and it may have affected his confidence. He surely can't have any fitness issues or Sam Curran would have been a perfectly sensible replacement.


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Post by alfie on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 3:28 pm

The two Joes have at least battled away for fifty odd balls each today...only wish two players could have done so yesterday !

But those flaws remain...Denly couldn't resist chasing a really wide ball from Pattinson then...luckily couldn't reach it.


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Post by Duty281 on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 3:57 pm

Nice to see some proper effort and application from these two, though Denly has played a few loose shots. Get the Australian bowlers into their second/third spells, they don't have a lot of depth after all, make them work and grind them down.

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Post by alfie on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 4:07 pm

Duty281 wrote:Nice to see some proper effort and application from these two, though Denly has played a few loose shots. Get the Australian bowlers into their second/third spells, they don't have a lot of depth after all, make them work and grind them down.

That's the plan ! Should have been the plan in the first innings , of course. Losing Root to that excellent delivery yesterday really did play havoc with all the good intentions though. Which is why I maintain it is so important to at least try to insulate him from those first few overs with the new ball. He remains the key to England's batting order ; and lesser players can play better around him when he is at the crease.


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Post by Duty281 on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 5:00 pm

The Headingley crowd starting to dream, but sadly the gulf is too big. If only this were the first innings! Still another couple of hours of play tonight, and you'd expect Australia to have England at least four down by stumps.

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Post by No name Bertie on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 5:05 pm

England know they will win if they don't give their wickets away and bat sensibly and with discipline.  Surely that thought should settle them - but it didn't work with Burns or Roy - although some are saying Roy can be forgiven in this particular instance.  An hour more leisurely batting now and then a leisurely day of batting tomorrow would see England rewarded.  Unfortunately it doesn't seem to work that way.  Presumably the wicket will begin to deteriorate and then the bounce will be uneven and unpredictable.

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Post by alfie on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 5:28 pm

I don't think the pitch will deteriorate much on the fourth day. But the scoreboard pressure and the relentless off stump attack by the Australian pace men will doubtless wear them down eventually.

If guildford were on today I'm sure he would remind you about the difficulty of making the highest score of the match in the fourth innings ...

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 5:34 pm

Absolute shocker of a decision. That was terrible. Worse than a howler.

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Post by alfie on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 5:36 pm

In any case , I am pleased to see these two really making Australia work.
As Duty says , if they'd played like this yesterday they would likely be facing a very achievable target instead of this monster.

Denly to 49... He might just be extending his Test career by at least a few matches...have to applaud his application , even if we have some doubts over his quality.

Another umpiring howler as Root is given out despite a huge inside edge ! DRS to the rescue.

Wonder when these umpires are going to be equipped with seeing eye dogs...

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Post by No name Bertie on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 5:37 pm

alfie wrote:I don't think the pitch will deteriorate much on the fourth day. But the scoreboard pressure and the relentless off stump attack by the Australian pace men will doubtless wear them down eventually.

If guildford were on today I'm sure he would remind you about the difficulty of making the highest score of the match in the fourth innings ...

They should then employ a team psychiatrist.  Take a professor from one of the universities, give him 100k a year to buy out his time - then he could give each player their own mental strengthening programme for each situation.  

I suppose some of the things going on is equivalent to the golfing yips, or darts players yips - but I don't think what is affecting England is anywhere near that level of a problem.  Ronnie Sullivan in snooker had his own issues but then employed a psychiatrist to help him deal with it.


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Post by Duty281 on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 5:38 pm

alfie wrote:I don't think the pitch will deteriorate much on the fourth day.  But the scoreboard pressure and the relentless off stump attack by the Australian pace men will doubtless wear them down eventually.

And Australia will get the second new ball early on tomorrow, which will doubtless move around and cause no end of grief to the English batsmen.

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Post by alfie on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 5:44 pm

Denly fifty clap

Wasn't sure I'd ever get to type that Smile

Good work from these two. However it finishes up , the way they've played here today must surely show the whole team that certain basics need to be adhered to in Test Matches.

Hope they don't forget it between now and Old Trafford.

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Post by alfie on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 5:51 pm

Duty281 wrote:
alfie wrote:I don't think the pitch will deteriorate much on the fourth day.  But the scoreboard pressure and the relentless off stump attack by the Australian pace men will doubtless wear them down eventually.

And Australia will get the second new ball early on tomorrow, which will doubtless move around and cause no end of grief to the English batsmen.

Yeah , that new ball will be a problem. Mind you , if by some miracle these two were still in when it arrived England might feel they had a chance.

I don't really believe in miracles though. I did in 1981 ...but the world has changed since then Smile

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Post by VTR on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 5:52 pm

Denly with a fifty, well I never. Think we can already call this the second miracle of Headingley whatever happens now

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Post by Soul Requiem on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 5:52 pm

I do wish they'd get rid of this neutral umpire rubbish, aside from Aleem Dar and Erasmus the quality outside of the English and Aussies is dire. I reckon Oxenford being biased would do a better than Gaffaney or Wilson.

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 6:08 pm

Just 23 off the last 14 overs as Australia start to apply the squeeze. Lyon and Hazlewood in the ascendancy.

Now a review but it's doing too much. Don't think Warne's too happy with that on comms!

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Post by alfie on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 6:10 pm

Runs rather dried up lately. Good spells from Hazlewood and Lyon at present.

Get the feeling something is going to happen soon...well yes , Australia waste a review.

Glad Warne isn't umpiring Smile

Now a run out appeal which was completely ridiculous. Think Paine must be just trying to distract the batsmen .

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Post by alfie on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 6:12 pm

Ah rats...Denly caught off the glove...

All good things come to an end. All downhill from here , I'm afraid...

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 6:13 pm

And Denly's brave resistance is broken. That wicket was coming.

Surprised Denly doesn't get more short balls given that his approach to them appears to be: 'close your eyes and hope for the best'.

Vital Stokes can hold an end now, but you sense Australia will knock over one or two more tonight.

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Post by alfie on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 6:24 pm

Aussies earned that with a sustained period of pressure. (Another difference between the two teams . England tend to lose patience and change plans every fifteen minutes so they just don't build the pressure up like that.)
You just knew one of them was going to get out then.

Was very good Test Cricket to watch thumbsup

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Post by No name Bertie on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 6:39 pm

For England to win from here they need to score 210 runs in about 185 overs, so I think they are okay in terms of run rate - it is just a question of not losing any more wickets.

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Post by Gooseberry on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 7:00 pm

It's still hugely unlikely that even a strong confident batting line up would close out this chase but England have done better than I had expected from what was a disastrous first innings.

Always the frustration is that they have players capable of doing this but who far to often collectively fall apart. The phsycological issue in the team has been around a long time now and doesn't seem to change regardless of who is picked and where. It's maddening

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Post by alfie on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 7:03 pm

I must be nuts sitting up to this hour for this...

Was going to pack it in at tea but it has been such a good old fashioned Test innings it's been hard to switch off. I know it will make no difference as they are bound to collapse tomorrow...but have convinced myself if I watch to the bitter end they just might survive to the close tonight...which would be an achievement in itself.

Last over ...and they live to fight another day thumbsup

Hope they appreciate my dedication Smile

Well played Joe Root !

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 7:07 pm

After the first two days where batsmen queued up to give their wickets away, today we actually had  some test cricket. Good batting and battling by Root, Denly and Stokes to give England a modicum of hope going into Sunday.

203 to get, with a new ball in 8 overs time and 7 wickets left, is likely beyond England, but at least they've frustrated Australia, shown some heart and not thrown it away so cheaply. Small victories, eh?

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Post by sirfredperry on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 7:12 pm

Well, my 132 all out was, thank goodness, way off the mark.

Who'da thought that from 15 for two we would be coming back for more cricket tomorrow?

Aus still firm favourites of course, but as has been said above at least England have showed some fight.

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Post by Gooseberry on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 7:28 pm

Roys averaging 16 in tests now despite having played a quarter of them against Ireland. High score of 28 and averaging under 10 in his 6 ashes innings. Yikes.

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Post by robbo277 on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 7:34 pm

This is what I talking about. Application and batting shouldn't be too difficult on Day 3. Should be fine for the first couple of sessions on Day 4 too, especially as the second new ball gets older.

I don't know whether we'll do it tomorrow but at least we've given ourselves half a chance. We've put another 70 overs into the Aussie bowlers legs to go with the 30 (shocking) on Friday. If we can get through the first 8 or 9 with Root and Stokes playing themselves in we might find the newer, harder ball flies to the boundary some more. If these two are both still there after 20 overs and another 60/70 runs then the Aussies will start to get twitchy.

We couldn't have won the Ashes today, but we could have lost them. That we hadn't should be quietly applauded - the fight was there. One more big day and it's 1-1 and 67ao somewhat forgotten (although Roy's travails at the top may not be).

Just need someone to @ Johnny Bairstow on Twitter and started slagging him off to fire him up for the fight...

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 7:39 pm

England can have no complaints if/when they lose. Their brain-dead batting performance in the first innings will be what cost them. They went into yesterday's play on top with their tails up and they capitulated to a pathetic first innings score. If only they had put this performance in on the first innings they'd be on the brink of victory rather than the brink of defeat just now.

Obviously, England will still hold out hope. Going against them is the fact that the new ball awaits early tomorrow and that could be the clincher for Australia. Normally, you'd say chasing down 359 in the final innings is way too much but remember this pitch is not a Day Five pitch. It will be finished tomorrow on Day 4 so theoretically should increase England's chances. I just foresee another collapse around the corner though with England perhaps falling around 100 runs short of an impossible victory.
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Post by VTR on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 7:39 pm

I don't think we have to worry about winning, but at least utter humiliation has been avoided. And it does give a bit of hope that England have a least an outside chance to draw the series

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 7:44 pm

I think if these two things happen tomorrow the win is on tomorrow for England. First Joe Root to score a century and if they can muster up either one century partnership or two 50 partnerships.
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 8:23 pm

No name Bertie wrote:For England to win from here they need to score 210 runs in about 185 overs, so I think they are okay in terms of run rate - it is just a question of not losing any more wickets.

So what you’re saying Bertie is england need to score 210 runs without losing 7 wickets to win? Cheers
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Post by robbo277 on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 8:34 pm

I feel like these two have to take it to double digits for the rest of the guys to really believe. That collapse always feels like it's just around the corner and if the Aussie bowler get one early then the pendulum swings right back to them. A lot of pressure on the guys coming in.

But if 156-3 becomes 260-4 with another 35 overs bowled and the bite taken out the new ball then we can start really believing that this is possible.

Root looks to have the bit between his teeth and hopefully conversion is less of an issue as personal milestones aren't the order of the day.

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Post by No name Bertie on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 8:38 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
No name Bertie wrote:For England to win from here they need to score 210 runs in about 185 overs, so I think they are okay in terms of run rate - it is just a question of not losing any more wickets.

So what you’re saying Bertie is england need to score 210 runs without losing 7 wickets to win? Cheers
That was before - now it is 203 runs in 180 overs for the win. It is doable. Keep the faith. I have sent my calculations to Headingley so they get the message.

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 8:59 pm

No name Bertie wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
No name Bertie wrote:For England to win from here they need to score 210 runs in about 185 overs, so I think they are okay in terms of run rate - it is just a question of not losing any more wickets.

So what you’re saying Bertie is england need to score 210 runs without losing 7 wickets to win? Cheers
That was before - now it is 203 runs in 180 overs for the win.  It is doable.  Keep the faith.  I have sent my calculations to Headingley so they get the message.

Actually, it's 196 overs left because we're still making up time lost on Thursday, when the torrential thin drizzle and floodlit bad light forced the umpires to take the players off.

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Post by sirfredperry on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 9:05 pm

There's no way England can get the runs (this from the guy who forecast they would be all out for 132).

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Post by sirfredperry on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 9:05 pm

There's no way England can get the runs (this from the guy who forecast they would be all out for 132).

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Post by VTR on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 9:08 pm

With names for a replacement for Roy being floated around, how sad that Hameed has now been released by Lancashire. Obviously he has barely scored a run in two years, I wonder if another county will even take a chance on him?

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Post by sirfredperry on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 9:12 pm

Didn't Hameed hit a hundred in the very first county match this season? I thought that would be a turning point but sadly he's not pushed on.

I think another county WILL come in for him. Let's hope so.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 10:06 pm

On a serious note, england have given themselves the most outside of outside chances tomorrow with some good work today.

This is officially a #crucialfirstsession tomorrow, if we can somehow make it to lunch only have lost 1 wicket, at tops 2 then we are in the game, anymore the Aussies canter to victory.

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Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Sat 24 Aug 2019, 10:31 pm

I'm usually an optimistic person and today was a fantastic display of discipline, why can't we do it more often, but 200 runs is certainly attainable but the key issue aside from the new ball is also the sun which baked the pitch today. Yesterday Stokes got the 40 odd over ball doing all sorts. One can only wonder what a new ball will do. Fingers crossed for the greatest of chases though!

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Post by robbo277 on Sun 25 Aug 2019, 12:49 am

The good thing with the new ball is we have a bit of time before it. Root and Stokes can play themselves in a bit before it comes and then have the technical ability to see it off.

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Post by king_carlos on Sun 25 Aug 2019, 12:53 am

The pitch has flattened out a lot but Australia have a lot of runs in the bank.

To pull this off you feel that Root will still need to be there after lunch tomorrow.

As long as three quick wickets don't fall in the morning we should be in for a fascinating days cricket tomorrow.

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Post by Gooseberry on Sun 25 Aug 2019, 2:04 am

robbo277 wrote:The good thing with the new ball is we have a bit of time before it. Root and Stokes can play themselves in a bit before it comes and then have the technical ability to see it off.

Yet here we are blaming everything on Root being at three and getting exposed to the new ball chin

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Post by sirfredperry on Sun 25 Aug 2019, 7:43 am

Full marks for everyone's optimism. But 359 to win in the last innings - comfortably the highest score of the match - is just not on.


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Post by No name Bertie on Sun 25 Aug 2019, 8:04 am

king_carlos wrote:The pitch has flattened out a lot ...
The remaining English batsmen (Root, Stokes, Bairstow, Buttler ...) in my view, have to be put all thoughts of winning out of their minds.  What they need to do is have the mindset of batting out the day - not give their wickets away, don't chase any balls, enjoy hard disciplined batting in good weather, tire the Australian bowlers, score when the bowlers are tired.

sirfredperry wrote:Full marks for everyone's optimism. But 359 to win in the last innings ... is just not on.
But
a) it is not 359 to get - it is 203 runs to get.
b) the English batsmen should not think of the score today - they should only think about batting through the day. In that way there is no "scoreboard pressure" - their focus should be only on the mechanics of batting without chasing and without giving their wickets away.


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Post by robbo277 on Sun 25 Aug 2019, 8:07 am

Gooseberry

I'd say theres a slight difference to coming in to the new ball in the 4th over of your team's innings and being 80* in a 170-3 when the opposition ahave bowled 80 overs to get a second new ball.

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Post by VTR on Sun 25 Aug 2019, 8:42 am

This will be all but over in the first hour I am pretty sure. Time and again we see set batsmen from the day before out early in all scenarios. Then the new ball will be lethal as it has in all innings so far. Remember countless situations where the impossible chase has looked on for a period, but ends up in a large defeat. This won't be any different

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Post by Gooseberry on Sun 25 Aug 2019, 8:48 am

True there will be a lot more variable bounce and unpredictable movement from the pitch this far into the game.

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 25 Aug 2019, 10:07 am

WinViz give England a 29% chance of winning, which is complete fantasy. A 1 or 2 percent chance is a fairer appraisal. It's simply not going to happen, unless England get all the luck in the world. But it's always nice to dream.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Sun 25 Aug 2019, 10:11 am

Root will go and the house of cards will tumble down after him

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