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Post by KP_fan on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 8:08 am

First topic message reminder :

Soul Requiem wrote:Cummins was out no doubt about that, not sure what he was complaining about to be honest, a clear noise and deviation off the bat.

why were there 2 deviations?
one clearly before the ball had passed the bat and nothing seemed to be touching anything then...and the second when ball passes the bat.
Both deviations looking similar...put a question mark over the correct functioning of Snicko

that said 3rd umpire could have done nothing different than upholding the onfield ump
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Post by Gooseberry on Sun 25 Aug 2019, 8:43 pm

Duty281 wrote:I think Roy and Buttler could be for the axe. Woakes could possibly come out for Curran (or Anderson!), seeing as how Root doesn't seem to like Woakes. Denly's 50 has probably brought him a reprieve. Leach appears to be doing more with the bat than the ball this summer, but it's not as if Rashid or Ali or anyone else is particularly pressing him for the spinners berth. Archer might need a rest at some point, considering how keen Root is to bowl him into the ground.

Still a huge uphill task for England to win this series, especially with Smith coming back and the in-form Labuschagne now in the XI. I just hope we see plenty of cricket as the September season is often immersed with rain and bad light.

Looking back on today, I think Australia got it horribly wrong for the Stokes/Leach partnership. They persisted in bowling short to Leach, rather than fast/full/straight, and they didn't bowl negatively enough to Stokes. They bowled to him like it was an ODI. Why not sling a few well down the leg side and have him guessing? But most baffling of all was Paine's refusal not to bring the field up when Stokes got to ball five of an over, meaning the easiest of singles for Stokes and Australia only having one isolated ball at Leach per over. And I still can't fathom how Lyon butchered the run-out chance, which would have won the game by one whole run!

Lyon got taken to the cleaners in this match, Leach hardly got destroyed in this game and is averaging 20 for the summer and has 25 wickets in 7 tests. People are desperate to run him down all the same. The same people who had Lyon destroying England in this game. His place isnt vaguely in question.

Cummins has bowled in three tests, Archer two, In this one Archer bowled 31, Cummins 33 ( and he had the lightest load of the Aussie seamers. If Archer is getting bowled into the ground the the Aussies are getting trampled into it.

I do agree that Roys position is untenable. Whether that means dropping down the order or dropped is another question. That is the one change that seems a must.

Anderson is trickier. If they wanted to rest Archer its an easy choice, but they wont. So its either Woakes and leave a dodgy long tail, or Broad. Currans not even in the picture unless theres an injury. Either way they go the bowling isnt a problem that needs fixing




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Post by robbo277 on Sun 25 Aug 2019, 9:04 pm

Anderson has already played one second team game but only bowled 9 overs. On Archer's second team game he bowled plenty of overs. Anderson would need more than 9 overs in the second game to prove his fitness. But if he's fit he's in and most probably for Woakes - who didn't score much in either innings and isn't being trusted with the ball.

Anderson and Broad could take the new ball and Archer could come on early if either are off or come on for Smith to knock him off his game. Stokes as more of a partnership breaker and Leach as a holding option (in the first innings at least).

On the batting, I think England selectors are always less willing to rotate their bats. They back them for a run and then drop them out for a spell if they don't play well. I think we could see 1 change or we're as likely to have 0. I'd be very surprised with two changes to the top 7.

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 25 Aug 2019, 9:08 pm

Lyon bowled very well in this match, he was comfortably Australia's best bowler today though, just like Lord's, he didn't get the full number of wickets he deserved. In a parallel universe, he did of course get the match-winning wicket and is currently being feted for it, though in this universe sheer incompetence by both his captain and the umpire robbed him of it.

I expect Cummins to get a rest in the next test. Archer has bowled more overs in the two back-to-back tests than Cummins and had to hobble off with cramp on Friday.

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Post by VTR on Sun 25 Aug 2019, 9:25 pm

England won't rest Archer unless he really is injured. To win from here they need him and firing in both Tests. Anderson for Woakes I could see, if Anderson is fit. Weakens the batting on paper, but Woakes has been batting like Anderson anyway so makes little difference.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 25 Aug 2019, 9:35 pm

Resting players should not really coming into it this time around. There is a 10 day gap until the next test which is ample time for tired players to recharge their batteries and in Archer's case he last bowled to any great extent on Thursday.
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Post by JDizzle on Sun 25 Aug 2019, 9:50 pm

VTR wrote:England won't rest Archer unless he really is injured. To win from here they need him and firing in both Tests. Anderson for Woakes I could see, if Anderson is fit. Weakens the batting on paper, but Woakes has been batting like Anderson anyway so makes little difference.

Same with a Duty mentioning Cummins might get a rest. I can’t see it now, he’s their best bowler and will surely play.

England have to be 100% sure on Anderson’s fitness before picking him. If he breaks down again, the Ashes could be over before the end of day one.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sun 25 Aug 2019, 9:54 pm

Would highly recommend listening to the TMS feed - Glenn McGrath's gradual descent into pure desperation as Cook begins to believe in the final half hour is just brilliant to listen too, how's that 5-0 prediction going now Glenn...
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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 3:39 am

Got to hope that stress hasn’t killed off PJ! I’m here for ya, buddy Very Happy

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 6:31 am

Wake up, everyone. It happened

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Post by sirfredperry on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 7:20 am

Watching the highlights again I'm getting nervous. Will England win this time or will they - as well they might have done - lose by one run?

Scyld Berry in the Telegraph rated Stokes' innings "the finest ever played for England because of the immensity of the pressure he was under".

He mentioned, in the same breath, Gooch's 154 and Botham's 149 at Headingley, as great knocks. But one merely set up victory and the other started as a cheerful slog with England seemingly already well beaten.

No doubt the merits of many a Test innings will be considered in the next few days. What is certain is that those of us old enough to remember 1981 will now have witnessed not one but two Headingley miracles.


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Post by No name Bertie on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 7:56 am

Some are claiming it represents maybe the greatest single innings performance of a batsman ever - given the circumstances and given Ben Stokes started off slower / more defensive than a Boycott - scoring 2 runs off 50 balls faced and then finished off playing 20-20 type of cricket.  Also as mentioned by some here the way Stokes managed the tail-enders also counts in his favour.  With the 11th man Jack Leach - he had to form a last wicket partnership of at least 73 for the win.  The last wicket partnership ended up being 76 not out with Stokes scoring 75 of those runs.

In Stokes post-match interview he was of the view that this performance won't mean much and would soon be forgotten if England don't go on to win this series.  So his performance was an Ashes saving performance for now - but England have two more tests to win in order to regain the Ashes.  I am not sure it is going to happen given the return of Steve Smith.

ps Some who watched this live - said they were emotionally shaken seeing what was happening - with even a former Australian international cricketer saying that although he was rooting for Australia - he couldn't help but get caught up with the spectacle he was seeing and then sort of wanting that man Stokes not to fail in his quest to see out what he had started when the difference in the scores fell to less than 20.

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Post by VTR on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 8:35 am

You touch on an important point. England really need to go on and win the series for that Stokes knock to be truly remembered. I think that's a very tall order though not entirely impossible of course.

Think about it, 81 still rightly gets mentioned, as much for what followed as the actual match itself. "Miracle of 81" tends to refer to the series as a whole or at least Headingley and the following match. Performances like The Oval 97, and even the opening Test of that series were remarkable wins but largely forgotten now, as of course England were overall well beaten in that series.

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Post by robbo277 on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 8:58 am

Anderson will need to bowl more than 9 overs in this 2nd team game against Durham. In the last game he bowled within himself by all reports and didn't bowl at all in the second innings.

I would assume we'll need to see one spell, even just a short 4 over one, where he's running in hard with his speeds up before we can consider him.

Even without Anderson, the bowling should be fine. We got Australia all out twice for an aggregate 425 (average of 21) which is fine. We have time to come up with plans for Laubashagne, as the nature of his inclusion and the fact we have back-to-back tests may have caught our analysts kn the hop. He came in Day 5 of the last test and batted 3 innings in about 6 days (last Sunday, Thursday and Friday/Saturday). We can have a proper look at him now as he'll surely play.

The real poser is on what we do with Smith, but it remains to be seen how he comes backs up from his injury.

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 9:13 am

sirfredperry wrote:Watching the highlights again I'm getting nervous. Will England win this time or will they - as well they might have done - lose by one run?

Scyld Berry in the Telegraph rated Stokes' innings "the finest ever played for England because of the immensity of the pressure he was under".

He mentioned, in the same breath, Gooch's 154 and Botham's 149 at Headingley, as great knocks. But one merely set up victory and the other started as a cheerful slog with England seemingly already well beaten.

No doubt the merits of many a Test innings will be considered in the next few days. What is certain is that those of us old enough to remember 1981 will now have witnessed not one but two Headingley miracles.



I am pretty sure I read somewhere that Gooch's 154 is rated the best innings ever by the algorithm used to calculate the points for the player World rankings. This looks at the quality of the opposition and how well other batters do. Certainly from memory the pitch could be a onditions back in 91 were much more suited to bowling. Headingley this week, first day excepted, was ideal for batting.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/16540/scorecard/63557/england-vs-west-indies-1st-test-west-indies-tour-of-england-1991

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Post by sirfredperry on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 9:25 am

I think England can go on to win the series from here. You have to remember that England could have won both the first two Tests.

Should England NOT to go on to win the Ashes, I don't think it will detract from Stokes' heroics. People still talk about Jessop's innings at The Oval in 1902 when Hirst and Rhodes got the last 15 runs to give England a one-wicket win. What is often forgotten is that Australia had already won the Ashes in that series.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 9:52 am

I've been a harsh critic of his captaincy but in all this we shouldn't forget the monumental effort of Joe Root in all this, the score was 12-2 and he resolutely kept the Aussies out backed up by Denly, without that springboard Stokes can't do what he did. The second innings bowling was equally remarkable, given a sessions rest they restricted the Aussies to 246 again another awesome effort, Stokes leading the way bowling 15 overs on the bounce at full pelt.

Some numbers are quite staggering went from 61 off 174 to 135 off 219, that is quite some acceleration. A few will bemoan the decision making of Joel Wilson and that LBW shout but I can see why he gave it not, batting falling away to the legside gives the impression that's where the ball is going and lets not forget that Smith was saved by umpires call by about 1% when he was stone dead in that first test.

Struggling to comprehend what I saw.

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Post by GSC on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 9:58 am

in real time the lbw looked like it was marginal on maybe hitting leg tbh
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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 9:59 am

"Woakes has been batting like Anderson"

He has 4 scores over 30 in the series one of which was not out. Anderson's never scored 4 30s in a row in his career.
I do buy that his batting hasn't been good enough to get him selected on just that alone but it does weaken England in that discipline if you drop him for Anderson.
And nor am I saying that England won't do that. It's certainly more likely that they will

For Cummins Australia openly said at the start of the series that the intention was to play him in every test. There's been no mention of resting him from their camp or sign that he's struggling with injury. But he has bowled more overs than they wouldve like despite England's attempts at suicidal batting.

But in terms of bowling Archer into the ground that's only a media/armchair pundit thing currently, it's simply not reflected in the relative number of overs he's bowled. He should be able to get through 4 tests off the back of a relatively light workload prior to that. The likes of Cummins have been slogging away at three formats and domestic/franchise cricket non stop for several years. His overall workload in the short and long term has been less than many others.
The problems going to come after the ashes and into the winter if he's leading the attack for all 3 formats. His load will need managing then, but with this being seen as a premium series and the head coach having no interest beyond it I don't see him getting rested unless he's got a niggle, even then we know from the world cup they will stuff players full of painkillers and send them out anyway. That's normal, it's not bowling someone into the ground.
England have a 5 bowler attack, even if ones shouldering more overs than others they can still limit the workload. Even more so with all the tests so far falling a long way short of the full overs allocations.

As for Stokes it just sums him up. As a total his career isn't that special, but he has a large number of match changing and winning performances with bat ball and in the field. It also seems typical of this England side, there are some very talented players who have delivered many epic and record breaking performances but also produced some insipid and collectively embarrassing record lows. Frustratingly inconsistent.
You can carry it in a player like Stokes down the order, but a few more who are reliable would be nice.
It does seem to be a team psychology issue with the batting collapses as well as a problem with the quality of top order bats.

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Post by eirebilly on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 10:04 am

sirfredperry wrote:I think England can go on to win the series from here. You have to remember that England could have won both the first two Tests.

Should England NOT to go on to win the Ashes, I don't think it will detract from Stokes' heroics. People still talk about Jessop's innings at The Oval in 1902 when Hirst and Rhodes got the last 15 runs to give England a one-wicket win. What is often forgotten is that Australia had already won the Ashes in that series.

Ye sure you're only 69? Wink
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Post by GSC on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 10:06 am

the frustrating thing is the talent is there. but in the first innings, with england deep in it, Stokes chases a ball that is well outside off.

2nd innings, he ends day 3 with 2 runs from 50 balls. its emblematic of the entire team, the ability is there to grind for a lot of them, but nobody plays to occupy the crease until the bowlers are worn down.

england got away with a miracle, but even an extra 50 runs in the first innings would've changed the entire tone.

I think they have to look at changes, even if its swapping Denly to open and Roy to 3.
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Post by Pal Joey on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 10:19 am

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Got to hope that stress hasn’t killed off PJ! I’m here for ya, buddy Very Happy

No I'm fine, Flipper. It was all well beyond my control.

Had a feeling something like that would happen. And it did.

Oh well... on to the next one. Smile
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Post by robbo277 on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 10:21 am

Stokes ended the world cup with the best batting average. 5x 50s, an average of 66.42 and a beat of 89 to win a World Cup final.

He now has the best average of any England player in this Ashes series, averaging 81.75 with 2x 100s, 1x50 and a best of 135* to lead England to their record run chase. Only one other England player averages over 30 (Burns with 40.33).

It's definitely Stokes's summer so far.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 10:22 am

I've heard a lot in the past 18 hours about Kusal Perera and that herculean effort against South Africa but in the context of the importance of the ashes does it matter as much?

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Post by robbo277 on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 10:25 am

Soul Requiem

The context of the Ashes and the World Test Championship...

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 10:55 am

Soul Requiem wrote:I've heard a lot in the past 18 hours about Kusal Perera and that herculean effort against South Africa but in the context of the importance of the ashes does it matter as much?

Both were incredible incredible knocks - Stokes shades it just I'd say, but Perera's was ridiculous too!
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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 11:04 am

Context of the world test champs is pushing it

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 11:14 am

GSC wrote:the frustrating thing is the talent is there. but in the first innings, with england deep in it, Stokes chases a ball that is well outside off.

2nd innings, he ends day 3 with 2 runs from 50 balls. its emblematic of the entire team, the ability is there to grind for a lot of them, but nobody plays to occupy the crease until the bowlers are worn down.

england got away with a miracle, but even an extra 50 runs in the first innings would've changed the entire tone.

I think they have to look at changes, even if its swapping Denly to open and Roy to 3.

Hopefully, this win can settle England down and make them re-adjust their usual cavalier approach. They can look at the second innings and see that their side can score 300+ if they apply themselves. They can look at Stokes' innings as an example that you can start slow, get settled, and then score your runs - you don't have to try to knock up a run-a-ball fifty! Best of all, England can look and see that Australia struggled in the pressure moments with errant captaincy and two butchered run-out chances.

Still a massively uphill task to win the urn, but my word this will give England belief.

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Post by alfie on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 11:34 am

Perera also played a super innings. Perhaps not quite the spectacular exhibition of power hitting that Stokes exploded into in those closing overs but it was thoroughly gripping ...and obviously just as effective...
Watching it I had the same kind of feeling as in the last 40 odd runs last night : "no he can't possibly do it...but I somehow think he will !"

Suppose we can't get away from cultural prejudices : an Ashes victory is always going to trump a Sri Lanka v SA match in our own minds ...

I am of the view that comparisons are indeed odious in the matter of Herculean feats... Salute 'em all , I say...no need for a ranking list.

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Post by sirfredperry on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 11:53 am

Watching that Lyon fumbled runout, it appears that Lyon didn't realise just how far Leach was out. He had time for a nice clean catch of the ball and a controlled sweep of the bails.

Instead he snatched at the ball and tried to catch it and break the wicket in the same movement. From what one hears about Lyon and his big mouth and sledging, it couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.

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Post by alfie on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 12:06 pm

Looking ahead...well not sure I am ready to yet , still recovering from all that impossible action last night...

But , loosely : think Australia remain Ashes favorites purely because they are holders so only require one win or two draws. England have to outdo them over two more games - and all the evidence so far is that the teams are fairly closely matched and results are largely to be determined by outstanding individual efforts.
On the other hand England have just come back from the dead and that escape may very possibly flow into the next match ...while the converse could be true for Australia . I am not really a believer in "momentum" ; but the psychology in this case just might influence the next match - even though the Aussies are at least blessed by having a ten day break to reform their campaign.
Smith will almost certainly be back (Will he be the same batsman ?). Anderson may be. Certainly Australia have room now to ditch one of their less effective bats (Khawaja ?) since Labuschagne has proved his worth. And a fresh Starc on hand - though not sure for whom?

England , I think , need to strengthen their team. Saying well we won so let us keep the faith strikes me as too much of an investment in blind hope. The batting overall will benefit if the lessons of the last 24 hours are absorbed ; but the order as it is just doesn't look capable of consistent results.

A lot of possible tweaks available but I do think the one obvious move is to abandon the Roy experiment. Does anyone honestly still
think he has a hope in hades of making a score against this Australian attack ? If they wish to try him down the order at some point OK there is a tour of NZ on the horizon ...but with the Ashes at stake I think it is essential , now , to bring in a batsman who might add to the output : take your pick between Sibley to open or Denly to that spot and Pope in at four . Make sense ? No guarantees mind ; but I recall that in 1981 they didn't just stick with the XI that won at Headingley for the remaining Ashes winning games... They made choices , improved the team - and got the result.
I could suggest up to four other changes but don't think that would be either smart or likely . May well be others , but need more time to consider.

Glad to have at least another couple of weeks blessed excitement/trepidation/anticipation instead of the dreaded "dead rubbers" thumbsup

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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 12:15 pm

Agreed Alfie something has to change with Roy and there's a lot of choices. I'm pretty certain England won't chuck Pope back in at this point though. Reshuffle or Sibley are the most likely.

The only other tweak I'd imagine being ont he cards is finding a way to get Anderson in the side, and that means Woakes or Broad dropping out. Very harsh on either

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Post by Soul Requiem on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 12:19 pm

Sibley coming in seems the obvious choice whether that's a straight swap for Roy or dropping Buttler and shifting the order round is fairly irrelevant i'd have thought. I'm a big fan of Ollie Pope and him going to New Zealand is a no brainer but at 21 is the middle of an ashes series the best time to be tried again?

The opener position is different in that I don't think anyone really thinks Sibley will be a long term success so the risk of breaking him aren't that important but with Pope the risk is pretty big for the long term, he plays at six or not at all for me.

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Post by alfie on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 12:22 pm

sirfredperry wrote:Watching that Lyon fumbled runout, it appears that Lyon didn't realise just how far Leach was out. He had time for a nice clean catch of the ball and a controlled sweep of the bails.

Instead he snatched at the ball and tried to catch it and break the wicket in the same movement. From what one hears about Lyon and his big mouth and sledging, it couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.

Hmm. Lyon did make some not very nice comments before the last Australian Ashes series...but I didn't have the impression he was an unpleasant fellow at heart. Remember that was at a time when the team was - now admittedly - slipping towards the Dark Side...anything was fair. The gracious way they took a clearly shattering loss yesterday says that is in the past.

He looks a bit evil with the bald head and big grin but I am not convinced he is really a villain. Have never met him but haven't heard anything adverse ...will give him the benefit of any doubt as just being a fierce competitor .

That finish was murder on everyone ! I have sympathy for Lyon , Paine and umpire Wilson : pressure is a killer and humans make mistakes. Even Stokes arguably made wrong choices in the last three balls of the penultimate over : once he had hit the six all he needed was a single to tie and regain the strike ...his attempts to attack Lyon again might have cost the match had Lyon or Wilson acted a little differently. In the end fortune favored the bold ...

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Post by alfie on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 12:26 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:Sibley coming in seems the obvious choice whether that's a straight swap for Roy or dropping Buttler and shifting the order round is fairly irrelevant i'd have thought. I'm a big fan of Ollie Pope and him going to New Zealand is a no brainer but at 21 is the middle of an ashes series the best time to be tried again?

The opener position is different in that I don't think anyone really thinks Sibley will be a long term success so the risk of breaking him aren't that important but with Pope the risk is pretty big for the long term, he plays at six or not at all for me.

I know Buttler is out of sorts but do you really think Roy is a better chance to make runs ? Honest question...

As for Pope : I am a believer in "if he's good enough , he's old enough."

It's a fair debate. But to be honest I'd go for Pope while he's hot...

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Post by Soul Requiem on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 12:35 pm

At this point in time I don't think either are going to make runs but the selectors won't drop two players having just won but if I had to go for one or the other i'd pick Roy just to see what he can do down the order. I'd be dropping them both if i'm honest, get Pope in at six and slowly build him up and then move him up the order, can't help but think that he and Root should be occupying number four going forward.

My preferred choice

Sibley
Burns
Denly
Root
Stokes
Pope
Bairstow (semi redeemed himself with an important 30 odd)

On the point of the Stokes non LBW, it's easy to say the ball would have hit the stumps but the ball was pretty damn close to the bat and you never see a snicko of it.

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Post by sirfredperry on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 3:27 pm

Good point, Alfie, about how sporting the Aussies were at the end of the match. They must have been devastated but all shook Stokes' hand.

Roy, I think, will be dropped. Denley will get at least one more go. Just who comes in for Roy is anybody's guess although I see that Sibley's selection has some support.

Some have said that if Anderson comes back, then it's either Broad left out or Woakes. Woakes is a fine player who has also played some crucial innings. But I would always have Broad in the team.

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Post by GSC on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 3:28 pm

I think Broad is playing pretty well while Woakes hasn't really done enough as the first change
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 7:03 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
Duty281 wrote:I think Roy and Buttler could be for the axe. Woakes could possibly come out for Curran (or Anderson!), seeing as how Root doesn't seem to like Woakes. Denly's 50 has probably brought him a reprieve. Leach appears to be doing more with the bat than the ball this summer, but it's not as if Rashid or Ali or anyone else is particularly pressing him for the spinners berth. Archer might need a rest at some point, considering how keen Root is to bowl him into the ground.

Still a huge uphill task for England to win this series, especially with Smith coming back and the in-form Labuschagne now in the XI. I just hope we see plenty of cricket as the September season is often immersed with rain and bad light.

Looking back on today, I think Australia got it horribly wrong for the Stokes/Leach partnership. They persisted in bowling short to Leach, rather than fast/full/straight, and they didn't bowl negatively enough to Stokes. They bowled to him like it was an ODI. Why not sling a few well down the leg side and have him guessing? But most baffling of all was Paine's refusal not to bring the field up when Stokes got to ball five of an over, meaning the easiest of singles for Stokes and Australia only having one isolated ball at Leach per over. And I still can't fathom how Lyon butchered the run-out chance, which would have won the game by one whole run!

My take on the team for next test - we will have plenty of time to debate with some actual time between these tests...and it might be good to let today settle a bit more, but anyways for me there are two certainties.

1. Roy cannot open at Manchester
2. Anderson if fit, comes in for Woakes.

Then you have some debates on the following;

1. Does Roy get a go at 4, and Denly/Sibley opens?
2. Does Buttler need a rest, and as such do you bring in Foakes at 7 to keep, or add in Pope to bat at 5/6 and Bairstow keeps the gloves?
3. Do you bring in Pope at 4, drop Roy and have Denly open?
4. Do you drop both Roy and Denly, and bring in Sibley and Pope?

I'll post more thoughts on the last 4 Qs, as it is certainly a complicated state of affairs for the selectors...and requires a bit more thinking. But for me the top 2 are set in stone, Roy cannot walk out to open at Old Trafford (doesn't mean he can't play) and if Jimmy comes through his 2nd XI game (his second one, so more than Archer played) he comes in for Woakes.

Right now we've had 24 hours to digest it all, this is what I think will happen for Old Trafford...

Burns
Denly
Root
Pope
Stokes
Bairstow
Buttler
Archer
Broad
Leach
Anderson

This is based off Pope being Roy's concussion sub, when he was doubtful earlier before the test. The fact this was the case suggests Denly to open is the next move, not Sibley brought in from the county game. I then think Roy/Pope is a 50/50 call at 4, but think they will go Pope to show they are making at least some form of change to the batting lineup.

Then Anderson for Woakes is a simple one, if Anderson passes his next 2nd XI game fully fit. Woakes bowled poorly this test, and his runs ultimately aren't the reason he is picked - you pick your three best seamers, and Anderson >> Woakes everyday of the week, especially at his home ground.

Now for what I would do personally....

Burns
Sibley
Root
Denly
Stokes
Bairstow
Foakes (wk)
Archer
Broad
Leach
Anderson

I think Denly has just about earnt a stay at 4 (a stay of execution some might say), but very much looking at Pope at 4 for the winter personally. Sibley in to open for Roy, I think Roy needs a rest, and if he is to play test cricket it will be in the middle order on the back of good county performances next summer.

Now the other maybe slightly controversial move would be to drop Buttler for Foakes, and give Foakes the gloves. My reasoning, as much as I believe in Jos as a test bat, he is clearly struggling with form at the moment and there are strong rumours he is mentally exhausted following the World Cup (people will say Stokes/Bairstow aren't so why is he, but we're all humans and all different!) - so I would drop him from the limelight, keeping in mind his medium-long term future rather than completely ruining him in the short term. Let him go away from the game, and bring him back during the winter series to the squad, and then XI if he earns a place on the tour.

Foakes comes in at 7, and takes the gloves off Bairstow for me. It may be harsh on Bairstow, but quite frankly Foakes is a far superior keeper and Bairstow's keeping has been meh at best this summer, which in a low scoring series is a crucial factor (those drops of Labuschagne 2nd innings nearly cost us the game...) - Buttler hasn't scored runs all summer, so Foakes doesn't have a high bar to clear batting at 7 to contribute more that way too. I know people will be like "well will it effect Bairstow's confidence/psyche" etc, but quite frankly this is an England XI, not a an XI to pander to Bairstow (which is what they did in West Indies earlier this year, when they rather ridiculously dropped Foakes in the first place when he had done absolutely nothing wrong).

Bowling change is explained above - and actually this would move Archer to first change, where he might be coming on in a situation where he is completely fresh bowling at Steve Smith with a 10-15 over old dukes...which is a heck of a contest to say the least!
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 7:08 pm

alfie wrote:
sirfredperry wrote:Watching that Lyon fumbled runout, it appears that Lyon didn't realise just how far Leach was out. He had time for a nice clean catch of the ball and a controlled sweep of the bails.

Instead he snatched at the ball and tried to catch it and break the wicket in the same movement. From what one hears about Lyon and his big mouth and sledging, it couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.

Hmm. Lyon did make some not very nice comments before the last Australian Ashes series...but I didn't have the impression he was an unpleasant fellow at heart. Remember that was at a time when the team was - now admittedly - slipping towards the Dark Side...anything was fair. The gracious way they took a clearly shattering loss yesterday says that is in the past.

He looks a bit evil with the bald head and big grin but I am not convinced he is really a villain. Have never met him but haven't heard anything adverse ...will give him the benefit of any doubt as just being a fierce competitor .

That finish was murder on everyone !  I have sympathy for Lyon , Paine and umpire Wilson : pressure is a killer and humans make mistakes. Even Stokes arguably made wrong choices in the last three balls of the penultimate over : once he had hit the six all he needed was a single to tie and regain the strike ...his attempts to attack Lyon again might have cost the match had Lyon or Wilson acted a little differently. In the end fortune favored the bold ...

Hmm I'm going to have to disagree on Lyon Alfie - he was even at it in SA badly last time out - see here as an example...https://twitter.com/DavidBrentIPL/status/1165722940966670337

You can say it's a different era now etc, but people never forget...
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Post by GSC on Mon 26 Aug 2019, 11:34 pm

looking like DRS got it wrong on the lbw anyway, hit the front pad then deflects to back pad, DRS had straight to back pad, hence why it straightened
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Post by king_carlos on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 1:21 am

There's a few rumours that Buttler will be 'rested', Ollie Pope brought in and the order rejigged to give Roy the lower middle order role that Buttler currently holds.

1.Burns
2.Denly
3.Root
4.Pope
5.Stokes
6.Roy
7.Bairstow (wk)

If Buttler is missing out I'd personally prefer 1.Burns 2.Sibley 3.Denly or even 1.Burns 2.Denly 3.Ballance so that Root can return to number 4.

Pope is a terrific talent with a test future but his recent double century is his only FC innings since that shoulder injury.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 2:48 am

I refuse to believe there isn’t anyone better than Denly to open.

I also don’t agree with Roy getting that spot, I would give it to Pope and combine potential and form with a lower order slot. Got to be wary that if Anderson comes in, we lose Woakes’s batting and then have a 7 who really is just swing and hope at the moment.

At the very least, I like Pope coming in and the thought of Roy being moved. If that’s all they dare do, it feels an improvement

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Post by king_carlos on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 3:34 am

Sibley is next opener inline but I personally have doubts about his technique. His trigger movement is a big step across the stumps and he has a tendency to be succored into driving through mid-on across his pad. Looks great when it comes off but leaves a pretty obvious plan for high class seamers bowling to him.

If an opener is brought in then it absolutely deserves to be Sibley. I'm not personally convinced he's a test opener though.

He's not a perfect player but Gary Ballance has a case to be made. Yes he has technical flaws against quicks coming around the wicket but 4 test centuries and an average of 37.5 is the type of number 3 this batting order would beg for. He's never going to average high 40s in tests but I'd back Ballance in the top 3 over several others to have failed.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 7:02 am

Am I misremembering Malan looking good against Aussie bowlers and a bit rough elsewhere? He’s a week from 32 so probably not ideal.

Realistically, the two reserves have been Sibley and Pope, if I remember correctly, so they’re the next two on the list. I’d like to see them both, although there’s some intrigue around Roy at 7.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 8:03 am

GSC wrote:looking like DRS got it wrong on the lbw anyway, hit the front pad then deflects to back pad, DRS had straight to back pad, hence why it straightened

It just did not look as plumb as DRS had it.

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 9:18 am

Englands batsmen this year

Stokes 6 513 @57
Burns 7 399 @28.5
Root 7 386@27.5
Denly 6 292 @24.3
Bairstow 7 246 @20.5
Buttler 6 233 @19.41
Roy 4 134 @16.7
Woakes 4 125 @20.5
Leach 3 101 @50.5
Moeen 5 90 @10
Jennings 2 62 @15.5


Stokes is up in Steve Smith land. Grim reading otherwise, not a single one has done enough to do more than retain a spot on the grounds that others are even worse. 

Despite the win it does seem like more changes have to be tried, and the obvious casualties are Roy and Buttler. The standbys are Pope and Sibley, with the option of shuffling Roy down and Denly up. Outside of that Id take Malan who did well against Australia previously (Englands best batsman in the last Ashes) over Balance who was notoriously bad against aggressive fast bowling in tests.

Anderson for Woakes seems pretty inevitable although I have real reservations about the tail that leaves England with when they have been so reliant on those players to bail them out in recent years. Broad and Archer have bowled brilliantly, and Anderson is just one of those players who cant be left out. It does seem bonkers to have two all rounders with Woakes' and Currans home records sat out but that just sums up the gulf in depth between Englands bowling and batting resources. I dont buy the 5 seamers argument at all, bowling a significant amount is not hurting Stokes' batting at all and leaving out Leach (who has also done well with bat and ball) doesnt look like an option.

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Post by VTR on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 9:22 am

That lbw looked like it was going down. It was delivered from wide on the crease and would have had to have turned a hell of a lot to match the ball tracking. You can tell its rattled the Aussies as their media are trotting out the tired line that a New Zealander won it. Think they should check the nationality of their best batsman in the match

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Post by No name Bertie on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 9:56 am

Soul Requiem wrote:
GSC wrote:looking like DRS got it wrong on the lbw anyway, hit the front pad then deflects to back pad, DRS had straight to back pad, hence why it straightened

It just did not look as plumb as DRS had it.
There is something not right with the algorithm - some assume it has some sort of along the ball flight continuous tracking - but that doesn't seem to be the case.  Ben Stokes was adament it was not hitting stumps and the umpire agreed with him.  He said the ball was heading past the wicket but caught his front pad and deflected back onto his back pad.  The DRS only had where the ball pitched and the back pad point and came up with a false ball trajectory (according to this criticism).

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Post by Soul Requiem on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 10:06 am

VTR wrote:That lbw looked like it was going down. It was delivered from wide on the crease and would have had to have turned a hell of a lot to match the ball tracking. You can tell its rattled the Aussies as their media are trotting out the tired line that a New Zealander won it. Think they should check the nationality of their best batsman in the match

There was the Warner one in the first test too, where he got into an awful position well that looked to be going way down leg but was given out and the Smith one that looked plumb but was just grazing the stumps.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 10:08 am

king_carlos wrote:There's a few rumours that Buttler will be 'rested', Ollie Pope brought in and the order rejigged to give Roy the lower middle order role that Buttler currently holds.

1.Burns
2.Denly
3.Root
4.Pope
5.Stokes
6.Roy
7.Bairstow (wk)

If Buttler is missing out I'd personally prefer 1.Burns 2.Sibley 3.Denly or even 1.Burns 2.Denly 3.Ballance so that Root can return to number 4.

Pope is a terrific talent with a test future but his recent double century is his only FC innings since that shoulder injury.

I would be perfectly happy with Pope coming in but would like him to bat 5 or 6 to actually give him a little time to acclimatise to test cricket. Ideally Root would play at 4 but that would require further shuffling.

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