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Post by KP_fan on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 8:08 am

First topic message reminder :

Soul Requiem wrote:Cummins was out no doubt about that, not sure what he was complaining about to be honest, a clear noise and deviation off the bat.

why were there 2 deviations?
one clearly before the ball had passed the bat and nothing seemed to be touching anything then...and the second when ball passes the bat.
Both deviations looking similar...put a question mark over the correct functioning of Snicko

that said 3rd umpire could have done nothing different than upholding the onfield ump
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Post by alfie on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 11:49 am

PaulHv2 wrote:
alfie wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:I’m more angry at the management, which I do feel has failed as a rest management for a long time.

Roy killed by opening. Root killed by the Roy decision and being moved to three.

It’s disappointing and their own fault

Now Denly is gone and England are in disarray

Well Denly has survived on review . But otherwise spot on.  The unwise choice of Roy as an opener , and the stubborn decision to stick with it even though a blind man can see it will never work , has condemned England to being one down early every time .  And as for putting Roy at three when the figures make it so plain he is a hugely better player at four .... picard

Has to be said the Aussie bowling - and catching - has been excellent this morning clap

Could other selections work better ? Never know unless they try.  And that stubbornness means they won't change until too late...which it may be already.  

Have to get a lot right to win an Ashes series. They've got this top order massively wrong .

Who do you bring in for Roy Alfie?

Sibley ? Or recall Robson or Lyth ? I honestly don't know. But it is pretty clear Roy isn't the answer ; and really was a total gamble from the start , instead of picking a regular red ball opener in the first place.

The worst of it is that I now fear the next bright idea will be to try Roy at four - locking Root into that cursed number three position ! Talk about turning your strengths into weaknesses...

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Post by Soul Requiem on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 11:52 am

I have no issue with Roy at 6 but that requires dropping one of Buttler or Bairstow, having three specialist one day players in the top seven who can't play in the top five does not work. I'd much rather try Sibley or give Balance another chance.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 11:53 am

WHAT IS HE PLAYING AT THERE?! I’m sick of all of these morons

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Post by Afro on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 11:54 am

What frustrates me is that there seems an obvious alternative to try, even with the current XI. We have talked about it before now, and they are also talking about it on TMS.

Put Root back in his favoured position, move Roy to 3.

Burns
Denly
Roy
Root

And now Burns has gone
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Post by Duty281 on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 11:55 am

Good bouncer from Cummins, he gets a deserved scalp. Aussies have really honed in on Burns' weakness against the short ball.

20/3 in pristine batting conditions. Good bowling - certainly - but this is a very poor return. Just imagine what would have happened if England were batting yesterday, when the ball was going round corners!

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Post by No name Bertie on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 11:56 am

robbo277 wrote:Worth pointing out that Roy's best score (by a considerable way) was at 3 against an older ball (because of Leach's batting masterclass vs Ireland). 72 off 78. The attack wasn't quite as good as the Aussie one, but it was at least a score ...
Maybe Jack Leach should start as opener?  England need someone who won't get out early going for a loose ball.  They need someone who will block, leave, leave, block, block, block - to see off the new ball and tire our the opening bowlers.  It's a five day test - in theory there is plenty of time later to get the runs.


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Post by Afro on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 11:56 am

Out of interest, what is the record for the most balls faced to then be out for a duck?
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Post by Duty281 on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 11:59 am

Afro wrote:Out of interest, what is the record for the most balls faced to then be out for a duck?

In tests, I think it's Allott's 77-ball duck in NZ's first innings of this game.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/15856/scorecard/63834/new-zealand-vs-south-africa-1st-test-south-africa-tour-of-new-zealand-1998-99

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Post by owen10ozzy on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:00 pm

Wow! It's almost as if they want to get out and go enjoy the sun on the balcony! Bowling has been good but their isn't anywhere near as much in the pitch as yesterday. As has been said, case of same old same old.

In fact Root might as well just be given a choice of 3 scores, pick one and then we will all watch Replays of the first two tests such are the similarities in our batting.

One things for sure...if I'm Archer, Broad etc I'd be sat fuming at the absolute ineptitude of my fellow team mates!

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:00 pm

Hales's average of 33 when opening the batting doesn't look so bad in retrospect...
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Post by owen10ozzy on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:01 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Afro wrote:Out of interest, what is the record for the most balls faced to then be out for a duck?

In tests, I think it's Allott's 77-ball duck in NZ's first innings of this game.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/15856/scorecard/63834/new-zealand-vs-south-africa-1st-test-south-africa-tour-of-new-zealand-1998-99

Kudos Duty...straight on the fact finding mission.

So what's a good score now gents? Or is it now just look to bat out the day regardless of score?

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:02 pm

What is wrong with Sibley, Northeast or any other alternative not allowed to be played by the management who pick based on hunches and feelings? Wrong star signs? Lack of “J” initial?

Is it just a “face fits” kinda thing?


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Post by compelling and rich on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:02 pm

we just need to do the basics in the top order. see out the new ball and face deliveries. conditions are more favorable towards England today. reckon when the ball softens it will get easier (unlike yesterday)

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:07 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:What is wrong with Sibley, Northeast or any other alternative not allowed to be played by the management who pick based on hunches and feelings? Wrong star signs? Lack of “J” initial?

Is it just a “face fits” kinda thing?

Like Joe Root's batting, the confidence of the selectors is probably shot to pieces.

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Post by alfie on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:07 pm

Duty281 wrote:Good bouncer from Cummins, he gets a deserved scalp. Aussies have really honed in on Burns' weakness against the short ball.

20/3 in pristine batting conditions. Good bowling - certainly - but this is a very poor return. Just imagine what would have happened if England were batting yesterday, when the ball was going round corners!

Could hardly have done any worse Smile

Really has been awful today. Roy and Burns both got themselves out - albeit under pressure from sustained good bowling - but that is what you have to do at the start of a Test innings : make them earn your wicket , don't throw it away. Because someone will get out to an unplayable ball - today Root.

At the risk of labouring the point : when you lack top class bats , it is surely very important to give the one man with a top class record the best chance to perform well. Not stick him in the "wrong" spot to try and protect lesser players who have negligible prospects of making a match winning score even on a good day !

Aah. .I'm getting grumpy. Have to relax. But even if it seems inevitable that Australia will end the series with the trophy , I was/am hoping to see a contest extending at least to the fourth match...

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Post by Soul Requiem on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:08 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:What is wrong with Sibley, Northeast or any other alternative not allowed to be played by the management who pick based on hunches and feelings? Wrong star signs? Lack of “J” initial?

Is it just a “face fits” kinda thing?

It's been clear from the outset that Bayliss doesn't have a clue about test cricket and he's barely watched any first class cricket hence his reliance on picking players who are involved in the one day set up. The other issue with the selection policy is the effect it has on players who eventually get selected years after they should do; Michael Carberry was a prime example of that, quality player for years but overlooked in favour of lesser players.

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:09 pm

owen10ozzy wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Afro wrote:Out of interest, what is the record for the most balls faced to then be out for a duck?

In tests, I think it's Allott's 77-ball duck in NZ's first innings of this game.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/15856/scorecard/63834/new-zealand-vs-south-africa-1st-test-south-africa-tour-of-new-zealand-1998-99

Kudos Duty...straight on the fact finding mission.

So what's a good score now gents? Or is it now just look to bat out the day regardless of score?

Would take 250 from here. But lose a couple more before lunch and even getting level will be difficult.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:13 pm

I’d be delighted not to be behind

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:15 pm

Pattinson now coming on for the first time this morning. What a brilliant bowling line-up. And they can afford to leave Starc and Siddle on the bench, as it were.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:16 pm

WHAT IS BEN STOKES DOING THERE?!

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:17 pm

That is the dumbest, stupidest dismissal. We're plumbing new depths.

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Post by compelling and rich on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:17 pm

idiots

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Post by Pal Joey on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:17 pm

It sure doesn't feel that inevitable, Alfie. Seems like we are also on the edge of a precipice... of some description. Personally I think there will be some sort of turn around at some stage by England.

If Stokes and Bairstow get a sniff... it won't be too bad batting in the afternoon. That first session was probably more Australia-like after some rain. Sun coming out... good assistance for the bowlers. Drying out (but not as quick as here) but with still some moisture there in the first hour.

Oops - no curse on the Duke of A. Crucial one - it's like getting KP out.
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Post by Duty281 on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:18 pm

11/10 still available on Australia by the way. thumbsup

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Post by alfie on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:18 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:What is wrong with Sibley, Northeast or any other alternative not allowed to be played by the management who pick based on hunches and feelings? Wrong star signs? Lack of “J” initial?

Is it just a “face fits” kinda thing?

It's been clear from the outset that Bayliss doesn't have a clue about test cricket and he's barely watched any first class cricket hence his reliance on picking players who are involved in the one day set up. The other issue with the selection policy is the effect it has on players who eventually get selected years after they should do; Michael Carberry was a prime example of that, quality player for years but overlooked in favour of lesser players.

I tend to blame Smith more ...he seems to have started this "pluck a white ball player out of the pack" system..

Ironic , is it not ? When they eventually decided they needed to do something new for ODI success , England acted by phasing out a number of Test regulars from the team and replacing them with players best suited to the short form game. What do you know ... It worked !

So now they've gone into reverse and tried filling the Test team with ODI specialists...

News flash : it hasn't worked.

Meanwhile Stokes throws it away picard

This is just about over , I fear. All out under 100 perhaps ? Pretty poor effort after the good bowling display...

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Post by Soul Requiem on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:21 pm

This also puts into context how poorly Woakes and Stokes bowled yesterday.

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Post by owen10ozzy on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:24 pm

Send the top order to bowl!! Should do something to earn their crust...

Archer and Broad will be crawling back out to bowl with the lack of rest they are currently having!

Absolutely abysmal from the Top order. This is where a good captain will prevail..if Root has any balls he will at this point stand firm and say he isn't willing to sacrifice his best position for lesser batters benefit. He will also do well to call out the selectors (Bayliss in particular) and essentially force them to make changes next test. It will be too late by then but it will at least show intent to finish the ashes with some self respect.

(Funny that the Kp documentary keeps coming up...say what you want about the man but he stood up for what he thought and believed and didn't waiver under the pressure to conform and keep quiet from above)

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Post by Pal Joey on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:28 pm

Pretty gruelling stuff actually. Coming back after 4 days? after all that effort at Lord's.

Maybe both teams are feeling it now but the Australians are desperate to step up in the absence of Smith. A few failures.. but a good partnership yesterday was worth it's weight.

Key for England (apart from the batting woes) will be the management of Archer. I think he's smart and match fit enough to bowl well within his means and still be deadly accurate and in control. Doesn't have to bust his guts in other words but just bowl smart.
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Post by PaulHv2 on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:29 pm

England are back in the 90s with this batting line up, it's ridiculous and shocking. Nothing more than car crash TV. Roy has to go, if Denly doesn't get a score here then he goes as well. There are plenty of lads at domestic level scoring runs in red ball cricket so give them a chance, they really couldn't do any worse. Find two specialist openers, and get them in the top 3.
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Post by Soul Requiem on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:30 pm

The dropping off Pietersen because he wasn't in the clique was also absurd and pretty much signalled the beginning of this mess.

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Post by Afro on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:33 pm

Stokes wicket was another example of a ODI mentality in a Test match, trying to score of a bad ball.
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Post by compelling and rich on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:34 pm

Duty281 wrote:
compelling and rich wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Wow, the very top of off stump. Magic delivery from Broad.

England back on top.

you have seen us bat havent you?

Back on top until sometime tomorrow afternoon, when England slump to 50/4!

bit earlier than predicted and slightly optimistic but Hero Hero Hero

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:37 pm

compelling and rich wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
compelling and rich wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Wow, the very top of off stump. Magic delivery from Broad.

England back on top.

you have seen us bat havent you?

Back on top until sometime tomorrow afternoon, when England slump to 50/4!

bit earlier than predicted and slightly optimistic but Hero Hero Hero

Laugh 50/4 is still a dream at this moment in time!

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Post by compelling and rich on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:38 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:The dropping off Pietersen because he wasn't in the clique was also absurd and pretty much signalled the beginning of this mess.

not sure I buy into pietersons sob story. in any team sport you need the team to be pulling in same direction (cricket slightly less so than say rugby but still is definitely required). pieterson ego thought he could do what he wants, other senior players didn't like this and KP pulls out the bullying card. give me a break, any team mate not pulling their weight deserves criticism

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:41 pm

KP being a c*** is not similar to any of this

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:42 pm

Afro wrote:Stokes wicket was another example of a ODI mentality in a Test match, trying to score of a bad ball.

I mean they should try to score off the bad balls no? Kind of the aim of the game
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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:43 pm

In somewhat related news, it appears Lancs have decided to kill Hameed:

“Lancashire Cricket Club can confirm that the 2019 season will be Haseeb Hameed’s final year, after the Club decided not to renew the batsman’s contract”

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Post by Soul Requiem on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:43 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:KP being a c*** is not similar to any of this

Irrelevant, you don't drop your best batsmen because you're of a sensitive disposition.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:44 pm

Denly plays at one he doesn’t need to and he goes for 12

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:44 pm

Not entirely sure how Denly even made it to 12
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Post by Duty281 on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:44 pm

Denly's worked so hard and now just binned it.

45/5. I think that's the game, the series and the little urn. Pathetic this morning. Australia have been great. Especially in the field.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:46 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:KP being a c*** is not similar to any of this

Irrelevant, you don't drop your best batsmen because you're of a sensitive disposition.

Would be a complete lack of understanding of team sport. I don’t know how to explain it to you because to come to that opinion, you’ve decided to ignore everything else

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Post by Afro on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:46 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
Afro wrote:Stokes wicket was another example of a ODI mentality in a Test match, trying to score of a bad ball.

I mean they should try to score off the bad balls no? Kind of the aim of the game

I should rephrase it. Trying to score off every bad ball.

Ones like Stoke's got out to could be whacked in an ODI (although more likely left and given as a wide), but in Test cricket it is a clear leave. The match is 5 days long, you don't have to score every bad ball
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Post by Duty281 on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:46 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:In somewhat related news, it appears Lancs have decided to kill Hameed:

“Lancashire Cricket Club can confirm that the 2019 season will be Haseeb Hameed’s final year, after the Club decided not to renew the batsman’s contract”

Sad, but not entirely unsurprising. Such a vicious decline. England opener in November 2016, not even a professional cricketer in November 2019.

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Post by alfie on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:46 pm

45/5

Oh dear. This is a little worse than I even imagined.

Credit to Australia ...bowled really well today. Kept the pressure on all the time. Batting has been rubbish though.

I feel for Archer and Broad who will be bowling again before tea ...

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:48 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Not entirely sure how Denly even made it to 12

Third highest score of the test so far! The only Englishman to make double figures.


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Post by Afro on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:48 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Not entirely sure how Denly even made it to 12

Has been involved in both of England's two highest partnerships so far. Credit where its due!
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Post by Soul Requiem on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:48 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:KP being a c*** is not similar to any of this

Irrelevant, you don't drop your best batsmen because you're of a sensitive disposition.

Would be a complete lack of understanding of team sport. I don’t know how to explain it to you because to come to that opinion, you’ve decided to ignore everything else

You have Jonny Bairstow at the moment, complete **** himself and basically a cry baby when he doesn't get his own way but he's in with the current crowd so it's ignored.

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Post by AlciG on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:48 pm

Duty281 wrote:
compelling and rich wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Wow, the very top of off stump. Magic delivery from Broad.

England back on top.

you have seen us bat havent you?

Back on top until sometime tomorrow afternoon, when England slump to 50/4!

You were too optimistic

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Post by owen10ozzy on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 12:50 pm

Easy being great in the field when the opponents batsmen are basically just pushing the ball to you at chest height.

I'm going for 67 all out..

Only hope the is that England absolutely tear through the Australians...

But then they do so knowing that once their job is done they have to watch Roy, Burns & Co trudge out to bat. Couldn't blame the bowling unit for thinking "what's the bloody point"

And anOther gone...do cricket teams ever get booed off the field?!

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