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Post by KP_fan on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 8:08 am

First topic message reminder :

Soul Requiem wrote:Cummins was out no doubt about that, not sure what he was complaining about to be honest, a clear noise and deviation off the bat.

why were there 2 deviations?
one clearly before the ball had passed the bat and nothing seemed to be touching anything then...and the second when ball passes the bat.
Both deviations looking similar...put a question mark over the correct functioning of Snicko

that said 3rd umpire could have done nothing different than upholding the onfield ump
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Post by No name Bertie on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 10:20 am

Overall the Aussies and the Aussie media should feel proud of the Aussie team's third test performance - given it was only by a "miracle" that they lost it. Overall they outplayed England. What with Steve Smith returning for the fourth test - they have a lot still to be confident with.

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Post by eirebilly on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 10:24 am

I have re-watched the Stokes innings many times now and although it was a magnificent effort to win the match I don't believe he was as fully in control as everyone would have you believe.

He got Buttler run out and nearly run out Leech to lose the match. I am not trying to take anything away from that performance but I think he needs to be more communicative towards his partners.
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Post by eirebilly on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 10:28 am

No name Bertie wrote:Overall the Aussies and the Aussie media should feel proud of the Aussie team's third test performance - given it was only by a "miracle" that they lost it.  Overall they outplayed England.  What with Steve Smith returning for the fourth test - they have a lot still to be confident with.

I would not say that the Aussie outplayed England overall. I though (with the exception of England's first innings) that the English bowlers were better all round.
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Post by Soul Requiem on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 10:32 am

eirebilly wrote:I have re-watched the Stokes innings many times now and although it was a magnificent effort to win the match I don't believe he was as fully in control as everyone would have you believe.

He got Buttler run out and nearly run out Leech to lose the match. I am not trying to take anything away from that performance but I think he needs to be more communicative towards his partners.

Leach almost ran himself out, if you're starting to critique an innings like that you're going to ruin the game for yourself.

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Post by GSC on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 10:34 am

kinda disagree. think they can only really be satisfied with 1/4 innings.

Lucky not to get rolled over in the first innings, should've batted England out the game in the 2nd, and lost their heads at the end.

England needed a miracle to win it but if Australia had played well, England wouldnt have been able to attempt.
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Post by GSC on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 10:39 am

for all the talk about how Aus are superior, they've made over 300 once in this series and 250 twice. No centuries since Edgbaston. They're too incredibly similar sides.
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Post by eirebilly on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 10:48 am

Soul Requiem wrote:
eirebilly wrote:I have re-watched the Stokes innings many times now and although it was a magnificent effort to win the match I don't believe he was as fully in control as everyone would have you believe.

He got Buttler run out and nearly run out Leech to lose the match. I am not trying to take anything away from that performance but I think he needs to be more communicative towards his partners.

Leach almost ran himself out, if you're starting to critique an innings like that you're going to ruin the game for yourself.

Not sure how I am going to ruin the game for myself for having an opinion?

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Post by king_carlos on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 11:06 am

LondonTiger wrote:
king_carlos wrote:There's a few rumours that Buttler will be 'rested', Ollie Pope brought in and the order rejigged to give Roy the lower middle order role that Buttler currently holds.

1.Burns
2.Denly
3.Root
4.Pope
5.Stokes
6.Roy
7.Bairstow (wk)

If Buttler is missing out I'd personally prefer 1.Burns 2.Sibley 3.Denly or even 1.Burns 2.Denly 3.Ballance so that Root can return to number 4.

Pope is a terrific talent with a test future but his recent double century is his only FC innings since that shoulder injury.

I would be perfectly happy with Pope coming in but would like him to bat 5 or 6 to actually give him a little time to acclimatise to test cricket. Ideally Root would play at 4 but that would require further shuffling.
Agreed on Pope deserving to start in the lower middle order. Hence why I'd be keen for a number 3 coming in and Root moving to 4. 6 seems where Pope, Roy and Buttler are all best suited though.

With the argument for asking Bairstow to concentrate on batting it might be his best place as well. Stokes has settled at number 5.

If the world cup stars get rested for the NZ tour then Pope can hopefully slot into that 6 spot where his talents are best suited currently.

Gooseberry wrote:Despite the win it does seem like more changes have to be tried, and the obvious casualties are Roy and Buttler. The standbys are Pope and Sibley, with the option of shuffling Roy down and Denly up. Outside of that Id take Malan who did well against Australia previously (Englands best batsman in the last Ashes) over Balance who was notoriously bad against aggressive fast bowling in tests.

I'd be happy with Malan getting another crack. He's a very solid batsman with a good temperament. He is also batting 3 for Middlesex.

I'm by no means the biggest Ballance fan. His 4 test centuries came against Sri Lanka, India and Pakistan attacks lacking depth and quality of seamers. My feeling is more that Ballance was dropped at a time when we had a batting order with more proven class. Cook was opening, Bell was still scoring runs, Stokes and Root were further down the middle order, Moeen was batting more like a batsman. Ballance isn't a perfect option but compared to the current top order malaise he didn't perform badly for England.

Sam Northeast is a batsman with a good all round game who plays the seamers and short ball well. He's yet another middle order player they'd be shoehorning into the top 3 though.

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Post by sirfredperry on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 11:12 am

Was the England record-breaking run chase more of a team effort than we thought?

Stokes, of course, was magnificent. But it could be argued that it was not just one key partnership that won the match but THREE.

At 15-2 shortly after lunch on Saturday, England seemed doomed. Those with tickets for the Sunday were probably thinking they would see little or no play. Then came the first of the partnerships. Root and Denley not only added more than 100 but they helped wear out the bowlers.

Then, when Root went on Sunday morning, we had the 86-run stand between Stokes and Bairstow which added momentum to the long chase.

In 1981 at Leeds, Botham was helped by a long vigil from Boycott which took its toll on the the Aussie attack. Then from there there was sterling assistance from Dilley, Old and Willis (who then went on to win the match with his bowling).

Stokes will rightly attract all the plaudits. But he couldn't have done it without a little help from his friends.


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Post by No name Bertie on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 11:18 am

Soul Requiem wrote:
eirebilly wrote:...  Stokes ... got Buttler run out and nearly run out Leech ...

Leach almost ran himself out ...
I don't blame Stokes.  Buttler and Leach have eyes, they were at the non-strikers end, they could see where the ball was going and where the fielders were. Buttler ran himself out and Leach nearly ran himself out (... in my opinion).

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Post by No name Bertie on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 11:26 am

sirfredperry wrote:Was the England record-breaking run chase more of a team effort than we thought ...
Not in my opinion - Stokes responded to the changing situation - and did what had to be done - to get England towards and over the line for victory.  His last wicket partnership with Leach added 76 to the score - of which 75 was Stokes contribution.  Yes without the English team Stokes alone could not have achieved the win - but it was Stokes innings that got the win some described as miraculous and historic given the match situation when he came out to bat.

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 11:34 am

king_carlos wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
king_carlos wrote:There's a few rumours that Buttler will be 'rested', Ollie Pope brought in and the order rejigged to give Roy the lower middle order role that Buttler currently holds.

1.Burns
2.Denly
3.Root
4.Pope
5.Stokes
6.Roy
7.Bairstow (wk)

If Buttler is missing out I'd personally prefer 1.Burns 2.Sibley 3.Denly or even 1.Burns 2.Denly 3.Ballance so that Root can return to number 4.

Pope is a terrific talent with a test future but his recent double century is his only FC innings since that shoulder injury.

I would be perfectly happy with Pope coming in but would like him to bat 5 or 6 to actually give him a little time to acclimatise to test cricket. Ideally Root would play at 4 but that would require further shuffling.
Agreed on Pope deserving to start in the lower middle order. Hence why I'd be keen for a number 3 coming in and Root moving to 4. 6 seems where Pope, Roy and Buttler are all best suited though.

With the argument for asking Bairstow to concentrate on batting it might be his best place as well. Stokes has settled at number 5.

If the world cup stars get rested for the NZ tour then Pope can hopefully slot into that 6 spot where his talents are best suited currently.

Gooseberry wrote:Despite the win it does seem like more changes have to be tried, and the obvious casualties are Roy and Buttler. The standbys are Pope and Sibley, with the option of shuffling Roy down and Denly up. Outside of that Id take Malan who did well against Australia previously (Englands best batsman in the last Ashes) over Balance who was notoriously bad against aggressive fast bowling in tests.

I'd be happy with Malan getting another crack. He's a very solid batsman with a good temperament. He is also batting 3 for Middlesex.

I'm by no means the biggest Ballance fan. His 4 test centuries came against Sri Lanka, India and Pakistan attacks lacking depth and quality of seamers. My feeling is more that Ballance was dropped at a time when we had a batting order with more proven class. Cook was opening, Bell was still scoring runs, Stokes and Root were further down the middle order, Moeen was batting more like a batsman. Ballance isn't a perfect option but compared to the current top order malaise he didn't perform badly for England.

Sam Northeast is a batsman with a good all round game who plays the seamers and short ball well. He's yet another middle order player they'd be shoehorning into the top 3 though.


For me Pope comes in as a 4 or 5. Stokes should be no higher than 5, but is certainly doing enough to justify that spot currently (he still averages well below 40 despite a great run this year). Chucking Pope back in at 3 is just bonkers, its not where hes been playing fro Surrey even with all the players they are missing and the scratchy performances of the team. 
England have 3 proper top 3 players available, and two others covering the top 3 currently in the team. Even Malan would be a more obvious option at 3. 

if hes only good enough to play 6 (bearing in mind who they are currently shoehorning into the top 6) and offers no other benefits to the team then that asks the same question as per Buttler, what exactly is he doing in the team? 

So I guess to me he could swap out with Denly. It seems pretty unlikely for the next test mind, Denly is far from the worst performing England bat despite his limited abilities. 


More on Ballance...he averages 20.5 against Australia and was dropped twice in a run of 13 tests where he averaged 19.6, most of which he was he batted at 4/5 . This wasnt just a case of being held to higher standards, he was awful. Its even worse than the likes of Bairstow are getting savaged for now. I just dont see how he gets a third bite, certainly not in the Ashes.

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Post by alfie on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 11:39 am

sirfredperry wrote:Was the England record-breaking run chase more of a team effort than we thought?

Stokes, of course, was magnificent. But it could be argued that it was not just one key partnership that won the match but THREE.

At 15-2 shortly after lunch on Saturday, England seemed doomed. Those with tickets for the Sunday were probably thinking they would see little or no play. Then came the first of the partnerships. Root and Denley not only added more than 100 but they helped wear out the bowlers.

Then, when Root went on Sunday morning, we had the 86-run stand between Stokes and Bairstow which added momentum to the long chase.

In 1981 at Leeds, Botham was helped by a long vigil from Boycott which took its toll on the the Aussie attack. Then from there there was sterling assistance from Dilley, Old and Willis (who then went on to win the match with his bowling).

Stokes will rightly attract all the plaudits. But he couldn't have done it without a little help from his friends.


I think you are spot on there , Sir Fred. I also remember 1981 very well ...and discussing this very issue with my brother at the time - that Boycott's vital contribution went practically forgotten in the excitement of the Botham/Dilley stand and all that followed. But indeed I doubt the miracle would have happened without it.

Similarly here : Stokes walked on water at the end. But not even he could have done it without the platform he and his partners created in the two previous sessions.

Which of course doesn't detract in any way from the wonder of his innings ! But does remind us that this is always basically a team game...

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Post by alfie on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 11:53 am

Still considering what changes England might (should ?) make.  Only thing I am set on - with agreement across the board , I think : Roy cannot open.  So either Sibley comes in or Denly moves up.

Not keen on Roy moving to a middle order spot .  One , I am unconvinced he would do that much better unless the pitch is flat ; Two , they have a queue of potential five six sevens already. and Three if they want someone different in one of those spots wouldn't it make more sense to pick Pope on the back of his recent big innings ? At least he'd have some confidence coming in ; something which might not be in abundance for Roy at present .
Doesn't mean Roy is discarded for ever - though I have my strong doubts about him as a Test player : if they want to try him in another position OK ...but maybe not in a must-win cutthroat Ashes  contest ?

Anderson - if fully fit - for Woakes is attractive from a bowling viewpoint . Not so keen on a batting list with Archer at eight : he is clearly not a bunny but looks to me (at least at this stage in his career) more like a fellow who might biff a quick twenty five to thirty now and then rather than a Curran/Woakes proper all rounder.  But short of recalling Moeen (Gasp ! The horror !) for the new hero Jack Leach I'm not sure how to square that particular circle...

Will consider further and ring Ed Smith with instructions at the weekend Smile

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Post by Afro on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 11:56 am

Can't remember who is the statsguru on here.

The talk of shoe-horning players into a batting order, it would be interesting to know which English qualified players have scored the most runs in the CC this season 1) opening the batting (my guess would be Sibley) and 2) batting at 3 (no idea tbh)

My personal opinion is that batting orders are largely irrelevant when your batting as poorly as we have been recently. Root would be facing the new ball quickly whether he was at 3 or 4!!
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Post by Soul Requiem on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 11:58 am

No name Bertie wrote:
sirfredperry wrote:Was the England record-breaking run chase more of a team effort than we thought ...
Not in my opinion - Stokes responded to the changing situation - and did what had to be done - to get England towards and over the line for victory.  His last wicket partnership with Leach added 76 to the score - of which 75 was Stokes contribution.  Yes without the English team Stokes alone could not have achieved the win - but it was Stokes innings that got the win some described as miraculous and historic given the match situation when he came out to bat.

Not sure you can just ignore the contribution of Root and Denly in that or the added impetus Bairstow gave to proceedings when he came in.

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 12:01 pm

On the Stokes thing I do feel that the way Bairstow came out after Root went so early was a key factor in enabling Stokes. He had real positive belief, whereas Stokes started out very defensive and sometimes playing half hearted strokes which is absolutely the worst case. Bairstow was very quickly into his stride and batted like he genuinely thought they would win it. Its that relaxed self confidence that England have often collectively lacked, compare it to the frazzled confused mess that characterised Moeen the last couple of years. 
We saw most of the rest of the tail swatted away fairly easily, but Bairstow had given Stokes not just support but had initially led that partnership and got him going. To me he was the one that instilled the belief that it could be done and gave Stokes the platform to go out and bat like a god as the tail crumbled. Props to Leach too who is a very ordinary batsman but seems to have a big game head and takes personal responsibility to make the most of his limited talents. 
Dont forget he came in just as the new ball was due too, it would have been far too easy for England to fold at that point. Instead he took 10 off Hazelwoods second new ball over without giving a hint of a chance. Stokes had only scored 7 runs in the day, been hit in the helmet, beaten twice and edged one badly that he was lucky didnt go to a fielder at that point. 2 balls into the next over he hit a clean boundary and was off, I dont see a coincidence. 
Bairstow was the one that got England going, Stokes was the one that delivered. 

But as much as a single batsman can ever be said to have won a game that really was the Stokes show across the innings and the match. He blows very hot and cold but Stokes is capable of doing the impossible with bat and ball. A luxury player maybe but Id trade a plate full of ferrero rocher with the new zeland ambassador for him any day.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 12:06 pm

Afro wrote:Can't remember who is the statsguru on here.

The talk of shoe-horning players into a batting order, it would be interesting to know which English qualified players have scored the most runs in the CC this season 1) opening the batting (my guess would be Sibley) and 2) batting at 3 (no idea tbh)

My personal opinion is that batting orders are largely irrelevant when your batting as poorly as we have been recently. Root would be facing the new ball quickly whether he was at 3 or 4!!

It's not always that simple, Michael Vaughan was talking about this and how different players prepare differently to go out to bat. He himself liked to be in the action as soon as possible so liked batting at three as he'd be kitted up from ball one whereas Root is more methodical and prefers to have time before he gets ready to bat hence his dislike for batting at three. Batting at four you more often than not get a decent look at what's happening before going out to bat even if it is just a few overs.

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 12:07 pm

Afro wrote:Can't remember who is the statsguru on here.

The talk of shoe-horning players into a batting order, it would be interesting to know which English qualified players have scored the most runs in the CC this season 1) opening the batting (my guess would be Sibley) and 2) batting at 3 (no idea tbh)

My personal opinion is that batting orders are largely irrelevant when your batting as poorly as we have been recently. Root would be facing the new ball quickly whether he was at 3 or 4!!

Sibley by a mile as an opener, he has the most runs of a batsman in any position in D1. 
Denly has done very well at 3, and really if hes going to be in the test team that should be his position. Assuming Ballance has been playing 3 all the time hes the next highest run scorer in D1 after Sibley , but he hasnt been facing much genuinely quick bowling ...funnily enough Wood got him twice in his last game. Australia would love to see him back. 
Burns has had a good season as an opener whilst not with England, as have Lyth  (test average 20, its almost as if being a good county player isnt enough for tests....) and Cook. Zack Crawley next after them. 

Burns, Sibley and either Root or Denly should be the top 3 IMO.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 12:27 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
Afro wrote:Can't remember who is the statsguru on here.

The talk of shoe-horning players into a batting order, it would be interesting to know which English qualified players have scored the most runs in the CC this season 1) opening the batting (my guess would be Sibley) and 2) batting at 3 (no idea tbh)

My personal opinion is that batting orders are largely irrelevant when your batting as poorly as we have been recently. Root would be facing the new ball quickly whether he was at 3 or 4!!

It's not always that simple, Michael Vaughan was talking about this and how different players prepare differently to go out to bat. He himself liked to be in the action as soon as possible so liked batting at three as he'd be kitted up from ball one whereas Root is more methodical and prefers to have time before he gets ready to bat hence his dislike for batting at three. Batting at four you more often than not get a decent look at what's happening before going out to bat even if it is just a few overs.

Leading Openers:

Sibley 949 @ 56
Cook 742 @ 44
Lyth 742 @ 41

One retired, one already tried and found wanting.


Leading 3/4 Players:

Ballance 911 @ 54
Northeast 853 @ 57
Bell-Drummond 783 @ 39
Crawley 716 @ 38



Leading 2nd Division Runscorers:

Labuschagne 1,114 @ 66
Vilas 965 @ 107
Hassan Azad 961 @ 57

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Post by Duty281 on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 12:48 pm

I still think Cook could do a job. And not just in the TMS box. With the series alive and the Ashes on the line, thinking short-term is fine.

It's time for England to send for the great man and have him deliver one last century (or four) to fell the Australians and take the urn home.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7da7AIs0Aig

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 12:56 pm

Foakes is averaging 29 this season. Yeah the best keeper. Yeah Buttlers fallen apart.

But he's not going to fix England's biggest problem.

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Post by Afro on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 12:58 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
Afro wrote:Can't remember who is the statsguru on here.

The talk of shoe-horning players into a batting order, it would be interesting to know which English qualified players have scored the most runs in the CC this season 1) opening the batting (my guess would be Sibley) and 2) batting at 3 (no idea tbh)

My personal opinion is that batting orders are largely irrelevant when your batting as poorly as we have been recently. Root would be facing the new ball quickly whether he was at 3 or 4!!

It's not always that simple, Michael Vaughan was talking about this and how different players prepare differently to go out to bat. He himself liked to be in the action as soon as possible so liked batting at three as he'd be kitted up from ball one whereas Root is more methodical and prefers to have time before he gets ready to bat hence his dislike for batting at three. Batting at four you more often than not get a decent look at what's happening before going out to bat even if it is just a few overs.

I heard that from Vaughan and don't doubt it. That is why I added the caveat of "How we are batting at the moment". Root would get little additional time batting 4 as at 3 of recent batting performances.
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Post by Afro on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 1:00 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
Afro wrote:Can't remember who is the statsguru on here.

The talk of shoe-horning players into a batting order, it would be interesting to know which English qualified players have scored the most runs in the CC this season 1) opening the batting (my guess would be Sibley) and 2) batting at 3 (no idea tbh)

My personal opinion is that batting orders are largely irrelevant when your batting as poorly as we have been recently. Root would be facing the new ball quickly whether he was at 3 or 4!!

It's not always that simple, Michael Vaughan was talking about this and how different players prepare differently to go out to bat. He himself liked to be in the action as soon as possible so liked batting at three as he'd be kitted up from ball one whereas Root is more methodical and prefers to have time before he gets ready to bat hence his dislike for batting at three. Batting at four you more often than not get a decent look at what's happening before going out to bat even if it is just a few overs.

Leading Openers:

Sibley 949 @ 56
Cook 742 @ 44
Lyth 742 @ 41

One retired, one already tried and found wanting.


Leading 3/4 Players:

Ballance 911 @ 54
Northeast 853 @ 57
Bell-Drummond 783 @ 39
Crawley 716 @ 38



Leading 2nd Division Runscorers:

Labuschagne 1,114 @ 66
Vilas 965 @ 107
Hassan Azad 961 @ 57

Thanks. So if we were going to go purely for round pegs in round holes, it would be Sibley opening and a pick of Denly/Northeast/Balance at 3.

Just hypothetical before anyone says anything.
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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 1:14 pm

Northeasts batted at 4, Vince has been at 3 for Hants. Ballance is awful against pace.
Pope would figure in the 4 conversation with northeast on county aggregates if he had not missed most of the season, hes done very well since coming back.

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Post by robbo277 on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 1:34 pm

Bopara averaging 47 in County Cricket this year...

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Post by Jetty on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 1:44 pm

This won't happen and probably no one's choice...

1 Burns
2 Denly
3 Root
4 Stokes (c)
5 Pope
6 Foakes
7 Curran
8 Archer
9 Leach
10 Broad
11 Anderson (if he bowls 30 overs in the warm-up game)

I don't like 6 bowlers but less workload on Stokes and Curran's different angle for Smith

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Post by Soul Requiem on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 1:46 pm

Jetty wrote:This won't happen and probably no one's choice...

1 Burns
2 Denly
3 Root
4 Stokes (c)
5 Pope
6 Foakes
7 Curran
8 Archer
9 Leach
10 Broad
11 Anderson (if he bowls 30 overs in the warm-up game)

I don't like 6 bowlers but less workload on Stokes and Curran's different angle for Smith

Talk about a long tail.

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Post by Jetty on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 2:13 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
Jetty wrote:This won't happen and probably no one's choice...

1 Burns
2 Denly
3 Root
4 Stokes (c)
5 Pope
6 Foakes
7 Curran
8 Archer
9 Leach
10 Broad
11 Anderson (if he bowls 30 overs in the warm-up game)

I don't like 6 bowlers but less workload on Stokes and Curran's different angle for Smith

Talk about a long tail.

How was Australia's in the last game?

8 - 2, 20
9 - 0, 6
10 - 1, 9
11 - 1, 4

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Post by Soul Requiem on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 2:16 pm

Point being what exactly? They'll have a certain Steve Smith back and Labuschagne in top form too, we're also not talking about the Aussie batting line up.

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Post by VTR on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 2:20 pm

What is this obsession with people thinking Curran is an actual Test batsman. That team is insane. Curran is a good counter attacking number 8 at the moment, he might improve in the future. Still, it's slightly less crackpipe than the TMS comments which demand him in the top 5

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 2:22 pm

Gooseberry wrote:Northeasts batted at 4, Vince has been at 3 for Hants. Ballance is awful against pace.
Pope would figure in the 4 conversation with northeast on county aggregates if he had not missed most of the season, hes done very well since coming back.

I would love to see Pope back in, just no higher than 5 please.

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Post by robbo277 on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 2:39 pm

Jimmy so far has bowled 15-8-16-1, which puts him on track for 20/25 overs today if he has another couple of spells. Taking a full part (no-one has bowled more) and bowling tightly it seems. Durham are 110/1 from 52 overs, so not much joy for any of the bowlers, but good to see Anderson getting through a proper workload.

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Post by eirebilly on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 2:40 pm

VTR wrote:What is this obsession with people thinking Curran is an actual Test batsman. That team is insane. Curran is a good counter attacking number 8 at the moment, he might improve in the future. Still, it's slightly less crackpipe than the TMS comments which demand him in the top 5

For me, if Curran was to be selected this tour then it had to be at Lords. That is where I feel he would be most potent with the ball.

As it stands, there are several better bowling options in front of him so he is not in with a shout. So I agree with you that there is no need to get him in there simply because he potentially counter attack with the bat. To win matches, you need to take 20 wickets so bowling options will always outweigh the need for his all round ability. England have Stokes (and Woakes to a lesser extent with the bat) to cover that.
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Post by eirebilly on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 2:42 pm

robbo277 wrote:Jimmy so far has bowled 15-8-16-1, which puts him on track for 20/25 overs today if he has another couple of spells. Taking a full part (no-one has bowled more) and bowling tightly it seems. Durham are 110/1 from 52 overs, so not much joy for any of the bowlers, but good to see Anderson getting through a proper workload.

I think that if Root rated Woakes, Jimmy might not have been in with a shout to return this series. As it is, I fear he will come in to replace Woakes.

Not sure what Root doesn't see in Woakes.
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Post by robbo277 on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 2:47 pm

Curran's hope is if England want a bowling all rounder at number 8 and lose faith in Woakes. He's not in the same league as Anderson, Broad or Archer (or Woakes). He's not a strong enough bowler to get in just on the merits of his bowling and he's not a strong enough batsman to get in just on the merits of his batting.

I did suggest he could come in for Denly before an earlier test and bat at 7 or 8 but that was shut down at the time on here and now looks less likely, and to be honest I wouldn't be happy seeing that for the Old Trafford test now.

I'd like to see him tour and get some game time over the winter, but for now he's probably second reserve and unlikely to play in this series.

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Post by robbo277 on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 2:54 pm

eirebilly wrote:
robbo277 wrote:Jimmy so far has bowled 15-8-16-1, which puts him on track for 20/25 overs today if he has another couple of spells. Taking a full part (no-one has bowled more) and bowling tightly it seems. Durham are 110/1 from 52 overs, so not much joy for any of the bowlers, but good to see Anderson getting through a proper workload.

I think that if Root rated Woakes, Jimmy might not have been in with a shout to return this series. As it is, I fear he will come in to replace Woakes.

Not sure what Root doesn't see in Woakes.

I don't know why he doesn't. It's something that's surprised me, Woakes at home is normally locked in. It's definitely something new this summer, he had no issues with him before. I was surprised he didn't take the new ball when Anderson was injured, especially as it was Lords where he has such a phenomenal record and bowled Ireland out just a month before. But now he hasn't I could quite easily see Anderson coming back in.

As discussed previously, Archer at 8 with Broad at 9 is a long tail if Broad isn't in the mood to bat. Hopefully our top order will do their job though and it will become less of an issue. And if not Stokes can just marshal the tail and smack 75 runs in the last wicket partnership again.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 3:12 pm

I'll be honest I see Sam Curran as a Mark Ealham type player, decent bowler and a handy batsmen but not good enough in either discipline to hold down a permanent spot.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 3:16 pm

I mean, I am the biggest Chris Woakes fan you will find, but lets not beat about the bush here - he was crap at Headingley, and his bowling in particular was very poor (1st innings bordering on Mason Crane levels of bad)

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 3:17 pm

eirebilly wrote:
robbo277 wrote:Jimmy so far has bowled 15-8-16-1, which puts him on track for 20/25 overs today if he has another couple of spells. Taking a full part (no-one has bowled more) and bowling tightly it seems. Durham are 110/1 from 52 overs, so not much joy for any of the bowlers, but good to see Anderson getting through a proper workload.

I think that if Root rated Woakes, Jimmy might not have been in with a shout to return this series. As it is, I fear he will come in to replace Woakes.

Not sure what Root doesn't see in Woakes.

The TMS commentators kept suggesting that Woakes workload needs to be managed, intimating he was not fully fit for any of the tests so far.

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Post by robbo277 on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 3:27 pm

He bowled 34 overs in the first test (when Anderson was injured) and 22 in each of the next 2. He picked up wickets at a decent rate in the first two matches, but his average in the Headingley test were impacted by that awful first spell.

If he is being managed, surely there's an argument to take him out the team, especially if Anderson is fit. Not a ringing endorsement for Sam Curran either, if Woakes bowling fewer overs than normal is preferable.

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Post by VTR on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 3:39 pm

Woakes is quite injury prone it seems. Not sure if it's Root not rating him, or there's a requirement to limit his overs. Saying that, as captain you would have done that anyway at Headingley as he bowled absolute dross. Add to that hardly any runs in the match, it was a very poor performance

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Post by eirebilly on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 4:17 pm

Being removed from opening the bowling with the new ball, where Woakes is at his best, will also have an impact on his figures. Not opening with him is why I tend to think that Root does not rate him. Especially at Lords...
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Post by GSC on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 4:19 pm

I think theres a difference between doesn't rate him, and rates Broad/Archer higher.

Which in the last test, was pretty spot on.
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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 5:56 pm

So ssume Anderson back for Woakes....who gets the new ball?

Will we see neither broad nor Woakes who had the most ridiculously successful new ball partnership get it?

I mean it's not like Anderson Archer doesn't sound good or anything but ....

And that kind of bring us back to why picking Curran at 7 is dumb. Whilst he again has a stunning home record picking another bowler is trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist. England's bowling attack is in great shape, it was only the first test with a freak early injury, Woakes suffering and the wrong spinner playing that they had an issue and you cant pick a side around the assumption of things going wrong.

It's also why I'm not too hung up on who makes up the 3 main seamers, but I am concerned about the tail. With 7 a problem position already having a moderate bat at 8 then 3 proper tail enters is not going to help at all with the actual problem England have had, only Stokes is scoring runs.

The make or break is that top 7 though.

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Post by Steffan on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 6:54 pm

Gutted with the result obviously but it was an entertaining test match

Even after England hit that terrible innings I knew that if the Aussies didn't hit a good score it was there for the taking

While Ben Stokes doesn't exactly come across as the most likeable person in cricket he is one hell of a batsman

Just hoping now the Aussie batsmen pick their up for the fourth test

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Post by Hibbz on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 7:20 pm

Here's one for debate

Burns
Denley
Morgan (c)
Root
Stokes
Butler
Bairstow
Dawson
Archer
Broad
Anderson

I heard that Morgan was asked whether he'd want to be involved and the response was a resounding yes. Brings the feelgood factor and the players would play for him. Takes some pressure off Root who looks like he could do with the time to focus on his own game. Losing nothing in the batting as Roy has barely scored a run.

Not sure if Old Trafford is known to be a spinners paradise and it isn't as if either Leach or Moeen has made a big impression in that department anyway.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 7:44 pm

You're picking Dawson why?

Morgan just no.

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Post by GSC on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 8:11 pm

Anderson and Archer would share the new ball.

accept the concerns about weakening the batting but would also say the formula to winning isnt much more complicated than getting Smith out
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Post by JDizzle on Tue 27 Aug 2019, 8:24 pm

Anderson and Broad with the new ball for me. I know Archer has got him a few times, but Broad has had Warner in his pocket and is bowling exceptionally well to lefties which Warner, Harris and Khawaja all are... if they all play again.


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