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Post by KP_fan on Fri 23 Aug 2019, 8:08 am

First topic message reminder :

Soul Requiem wrote:Cummins was out no doubt about that, not sure what he was complaining about to be honest, a clear noise and deviation off the bat.

why were there 2 deviations?
one clearly before the ball had passed the bat and nothing seemed to be touching anything then...and the second when ball passes the bat.
Both deviations looking similar...put a question mark over the correct functioning of Snicko

that said 3rd umpire could have done nothing different than upholding the onfield ump
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Post by Duty281 on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 2:25 pm

Shame to hear about Anderson, a return at any point looks ever more distant. Curran coming in for Woakes if Anderson wasn't fit was always likely.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 2:30 pm

If Woakes needs a rest, Anderson isn’t there, Curran is definitely incumbent.

Has Overton got better?

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Post by alfie on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 2:43 pm

So no Anderson...not a total surprise , really : tough to come back quickly from a nasty injury in a load-bearing part of your late thirties body...

Does settle the fears over an over long tail at least. Either Curran or Overton would be a handy eight if Woakes were seen as being in need of a rest. If Woakes does keep his spot I hope Root sees fit to use him ! Preferably with the new ball.

Batsmen not - yet - replaced ? I'd be staggered if they stick with the same lineup : even if they juggle them around you're backing hope over experience if you expect not one but two out of form players to suddenly start firing. Australia have the capacity to improve their team now that both Smith and Labuschagne can play together...suggests England need to improve theirs too if they wish to remain competitive.(Especially as no Jimmy now means they aren't going to improve the bowling.)

As GSC says , Smith - well, Smith/Labuschagne actually - is probably the difference between Australia being ahead on points , as it were , rather than being behind in the series. But you could say he same of England and Stokes.
I think England possibly have more improvement in them ; Root really hasn't fired to his standards ,  Bairstow has looked good a couple of times but hasn't yet gone on to a big one...and Buttler (if he survives)  is surely capable of playing an innings. Warner of course has been mostly under par so far for Australia but he has never been the player in England that he is in his homeland..and that goes even more so for Khawaja.

The more I look at it the more I feel Australia still hold an edge in that they are rotating their bowlers well while England are over reliant on Archer and Broad ...which is likely to tell over the last couple of games.  The mental/emotional fallout from the last match might be a factor ; but there is a ten day break so perhaps not so much ?

So summing up : England need to produce a rabbit from their hat (and it won't be Jimmy) or have a lot of luck in Manchester or I fear those Ashes have only had a temporary reprieve.

But who really knows ? Two flawed teams : might actually all hinge on who wins the toss and/or holds their catches...

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 2:57 pm

Regardless of whether Overton exists or not Curran will be next in line after Anderson and Woakes. 
he gives the left arm option and has performed above expectation for England on home soil.  When you consider that Wood might also have been selected ahead ahead of him in some circumstances (ie Archer missing) it really shows that England have depth to their seam attack now. 

As for relative strengths, its hard to sustain an argument that Australia dont have a noticeably better top 6, although england close that gap at 7. With Curran playing over Anderson England match or slightly better Australias tail dependant on who they pick. So all in batting is about equal. 
Bowling? Thats pretty even too. Most people seem to think Lyon invented sliced bread but Leach has outperformed him so far. Aus have more raw pace whether they pick Starc or not, but Broad is showing a level of constituency I cant remember from him, Archer is the bowler of the series, and importantly England have a fourth front line seamer in Stokes , Aus have a part time leggy in Lambuschange. If its a flat deck then Id give Aus the edge as they have more bowlers who can make something happen, otherwise its England. 

Short version, teams are pretty even if they go different ways about it.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 2:58 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:If Woakes needs a rest, Anderson isn’t there, Curran is definitely incumbent.

Has Overton got better?

Was Overton *that* bad...? Averaged 37 in that horrible 17/18 Aussie tour (better than Broad/Woakes by a considerable margin), which isn't great but certainly not horrible.

Having another good season in the county championship this year - worth another go...but likelihood he plays is very slim anyways
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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 3:05 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:If Woakes needs a rest, Anderson isn’t there, Curran is definitely incumbent.

Has Overton got better?

Was Overton *that* bad...? Averaged 37 in that horrible 17/18 Aussie tour (better than Broad/Woakes by a considerable margin), which isn't great but certainly not horrible.

Having another good season in the county championship this year - worth another go...but likelihood he plays is very slim anyways

You know what I mean though, he didn’t build a case that had anyone clamouring for more either. Presume he’s in as Gregory is injured?

I’m not fussed, an actual player who might play well in tests is a much better inclusion than one of them having a hunch Willey might upset Smith because they liked how he used to ball in one dayers, and that’s the faith I have in the thought processes of our selectors.

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Post by alfie on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 3:17 pm

Goose is sounding more confident than I am...

Agree England have some seam bowling depth at the moment ...or rather they would have if it were not the case that Anderson , Wood and Stone are all sat out injured. So far Australia has a group of six fast men (some of whom have been a bit injury-prone in the past) and they're all fit as a fiddle .

The batting is only " about equal" if Smith can be held to normal human performance. In fact if he can be , I suspect England's is overall superior.

But that's a Very Big IF...

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Post by alfie on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 3:22 pm

Had another look and I see that's a confirmed squad with no change to the batting.

They must be mad. Australia to win 3-1 now , I think.

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Post by Afro on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 3:45 pm

Too late to get Critchley in? Stats don't back it up, but that he has managed to get Smith out for a low score today means he could be worth 100 runs per innings
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Post by VTR on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 4:17 pm

So it seems his weakness is poor quality legspin. Bring back Chris Schofield

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Post by robbo277 on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 4:27 pm

Gooseberry wrote:Regardless of whether Overton exists or not Curran will be next in line after Anderson and Woakes. 
he gives the left arm option and has performed above expectation for England on home soil.  When you consider that Wood might also have been selected ahead ahead of him in some circumstances (ie Archer missing) it really shows that England have depth to their seam attack now. 

As for relative strengths, its hard to sustain an argument that Australia dont have a noticeably better top 6, although england close that gap at 7. With Curran playing over Anderson England match or slightly better Australias tail dependant on who they pick. So all in batting is about equal. 
Bowling? Thats pretty even too. Most people seem to think Lyon invented sliced bread but Leach has outperformed him so far. Aus have more raw pace whether they pick Starc or not, but Broad is showing a level of constituency I cant remember from him, Archer is the bowler of the series, and importantly England have a fourth front line seamer in Stokes , Aus have a part time leggy in Lambuschange. If its a flat deck then Id give Aus the edge as they have more bowlers who can make something happen, otherwise its England. 

Short version, teams are pretty even if they go different ways about it.

Broad is apparently drawing a false shot every 4 deliveries or something ridiculous like that.

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Post by robbo277 on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 4:27 pm

VTR wrote:So it seems his weakness is poor quality legspin. Bring back Chris Schofield

Denly's Ashes from here.

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Post by GSC on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 4:30 pm

aggers might be ruled out for the rest of the ashes too
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Post by Duty281 on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 4:43 pm

robbo277 wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:Regardless of whether Overton exists or not Curran will be next in line after Anderson and Woakes. 
he gives the left arm option and has performed above expectation for England on home soil.  When you consider that Wood might also have been selected ahead ahead of him in some circumstances (ie Archer missing) it really shows that England have depth to their seam attack now. 

As for relative strengths, its hard to sustain an argument that Australia dont have a noticeably better top 6, although england close that gap at 7. With Curran playing over Anderson England match or slightly better Australias tail dependant on who they pick. So all in batting is about equal. 
Bowling? Thats pretty even too. Most people seem to think Lyon invented sliced bread but Leach has outperformed him so far. Aus have more raw pace whether they pick Starc or not, but Broad is showing a level of constituency I cant remember from him, Archer is the bowler of the series, and importantly England have a fourth front line seamer in Stokes , Aus have a part time leggy in Lambuschange. If its a flat deck then Id give Aus the edge as they have more bowlers who can make something happen, otherwise its England. 

Short version, teams are pretty even if they go different ways about it.

Broad is apparently drawing a false shot every 4 deliveries or something ridiculous like that.

I think 95% of those false shots are from Warner!

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Post by Afro on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 6:10 pm

Gooseberry wrote:Regardless of whether Overton exists or not

I can confirm he does Ok! saw him fairly recently.

Although, I guess it could have been Jamie.....
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Post by GSC on Fri 30 Aug 2019, 7:15 pm

denly to open, Roy to 4 apparently.

think a few are playing for their places after this series
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Post by alfie on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 4:04 am

OK I might have overreacted a little last night at the unchanged squad Smile
I plead shock.

But : my objection to this is not just a conviction that Sibley or Pope would necessarily produce magic. They may make no more runs than Roy , or Buttler. (Though they certainly could not make any less !)

No it is more that this non-action clearly demonstrates the total lack of any flexibility in the England management...the same stubborn refusal to try anything different in the face of repeated failure that leads to constant collapses as the team collectively tries to bat "the way they play" regardless of the conditions or match situation. Stokes in particular just showed that there is an alternative at Headingley ...but I am surely not alone in fearing they will will be dismissing this as an exception and revert to the errors of the first innings at the next opportunity ?
It seems a rearrangement of the order is contemplated. Denly to be rewarded for his battling success at four by moving to the top of the order ...Roy for his total failures by going to the relative comfort of four (to be "protected" by keeping England's best batsman at the highly exposed number three slot ?) unless they fancy doubling down by moving Stokes up to four ...wouldn't put it past them.

Could this work ? Sure it might...for once , England get a start , Roy gets in at 130/2 and smashes the bowlers around : wow, success ! (Though I fancy Root - or anyone - coming in at that sort of score would be licking his lips). More likely though , given how this series has gone , there will be early wickets. If Roy comes in at , say , 21/2 ...does anyone really see him digging in like Denly to grind out 35 ? I can't. I'd put money on it being 30/3 within four more overs. Not to worry , still Stokes to come...

Australia won't bat Smith at three.

One reason to make a change (or two) is that it would at least present the Australian bowlers with a new problem. Up to now they've had only to keep repeating their (generally excellent) plans for the England batsmen they have obviously studied in detail. By and large they've worked. They have controlled Root ; appear to have , after a couple of games , largely worked out Burns ; and know what to do to cut Buttler off early. Stokes has defied them with sheer determination , talent , and a dash of good fortune...but to make consistent scores England need to have a couple of other players start turning in big performances. Surely giving the Australians something new to overcome could only help the chances of that happening ? Especially if it meant getting players back in the positions that suit them best.

Yeah whoever ends up playing (Might Curran get a run in Manchester ?) it won't be Waugh/Warne/Gilchrist/McGrath up the other end so anything is possible. But I really think England have missed a trick
here by refusing to move away from Plan A.

Wonder what would happen if the failing players continued to struggle but the team somehow salvaged a draw in this one ? Would Smith & co have the courage to adjust things for the Oval ? I'd not be holding my breath...

OK rant over. Hope my misgivings are not underlined next week Fingers Crossed

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Post by KP_fan on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 7:56 am

I haven't been reading up much.....but noticed today that Anderson is out for the Ashes.
Seems like there is not much more test match life left in him......given that he is really effective in only English conditions and so the next test is about a year away.
With the spectacular burst of Archer.....even to the establishment he might appear more dispensable.

Roy will bat at 4 and Denly open....how far will they go in "gratitude payback" for his 3 good world cup innings:shock:  
And Denly not deemed suitable for No.3 a few games back because the ball is too new....is now opening?

The Americans have 2 idioms that I am reminded of that might apply here.
Trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.
[i]tail wagging the dog


Who will Smith replace'...most likely Wade....I would have put Khwaja to open and brought him back in place of the "other" opener.
when will Starc get a game?.....will he get a game at all?
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Post by Gooseberry on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 11:41 am

Alfie it's a touch unfair to say the England leadership haven't tried anything different, they have will have changed the opening pair 4 times since cooks retirement and the list of partners he had is boggling.
I do feel more could or should have been done mind. Partly because I fundamentally disagree with Smith assessment that Denly is or ever will be good enough to hold down a place in test cricket. I'm less bothered about Roy getting a go down the order although it could have been in place of Buttler.
I do kinda feel the onus is on wjoever is picked to actually perform to their ability rather than the selectors to keep changing the top 6 every week till someone makes a score. The honest county pros like stoneman have been tried and failed. The dashing stroke makers like Vince have been tried and failed. The young guns with nothing tonloose like Pope have been tried and failed. The wicket keepers with mediocre first class records have been tried and failed.
Well OK foakes did pretty well and got dropped but....


As for Anderson it's very hard to see how he has a test future. Worth remembering in relation to the discussions about the Flintoff era that he was the bench warmer for the 2005 wolf pack despite being over 2 years into his test career. That's how old he is. I'm sure they would love to have him for the winter tours and have the opportunity to rotate out other senior bowlers but it's not looking good.
Morgan meanwhile has laid down a huge market in the blast hitting an absurdly fast 80something to remind us that he could still be a force for the world T20. Broad too has shown hes absolutely not past it in this ashes, the most consistent bowling performance I can remember from him and deserves even better figures than he has.
I'm assuming most if these players will.amke announcements and the end of the summer programme. There could be quite a cull of elderly statesmen. Retirements will show more in the ODI squad where theres been very few players capped over the 4 year cycle.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 2:00 pm

Roy has so much credit in the bank for being good at one day cricket. Even there, Goose, it’s Denly, maybe less talented but performing better and applying himself to try help the team, who is getting the stick whilst more hopes of something unseen appearing for Roy.

Do coaches and selectors get enough scrutiny? I feel like they get it easy from the media on these issues, unlike any other national sport

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Post by GSC on Sat 31 Aug 2019, 2:21 pm

I think it's probably fair to criticise if there arent changed after this series. Roy was brought in after an excellent world cup and it hasn't translated.

Do think Root is probably getting a bit too slack also for his own form. Its not as if Smith has always come in with a platform either. he needs to make a big score at some point.
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Post by KP_fan on Sun 01 Sep 2019, 3:09 pm

It appears Aus will have 3 changes

-Smith in at the cost of opener and Khawaj moves up ( as I would have liked to see)
-Starc in for someone ( I think Cummins)
-And hold you breath Mitch Marsh for Wade Shocked
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Post by Soul Requiem on Sun 01 Sep 2019, 3:25 pm

Marsh for Wade makes sense to take some of the load of the three pacemen, he's not very good but he adds more balance to the side.

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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 02 Sep 2019, 8:54 am

He does and I'd expected him to be in front the first test but does this look like a stronger Aus batting line up? I don't think so.
Obviously Smith back is a huge boost but shifting Usman up and having one less proper batsman would not fill me with confidence. If anything they look more like the side England started with, a couple of all rounders and most of the batsmen playing a position too high.
It's the only option they have to stop Cummins being worked into the ground despite Englands inability to post big totals.

I've seen comparisons with the 2005 ashes being bandied about. Whilst the comeback England have made maybe mirrors that including an incredibly close win that series was played between two high quality side stacked with world class players. This one is two utter shambles held together by some very good bowlers and one batsman for each side. Neither team looks a patch on India.

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Post by robbo277 on Mon 02 Sep 2019, 10:06 am

So who are Australia going to bat at 3 is Smith returns for Harris and Khawaja opens? Head, Smith or Marnus? It's not a rock solid top 3, and with Warner off form it is probably equally as bad as England's.

Mitchell Marsh coming in at 6 for Wade probably doesn't overly weaken their batting, Wade has an 151 runs at an average just over 25, and 110 of those came in a ton at Edgbaston batting with Smith in that second innings. And although he might not get lots of wickets himself, the extra option with the ball may help the strike bowlers if England do decide to apply themselves to their batting, as they did in the second innings at Headingley.

The game, therefore will most likely rely on England's bowlers vs Smith. If England can get him (and Australia) cheaply then I think we'll win. If he makes another pair of 140s, then we won't. Simple game really.

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Post by VTR on Mon 02 Sep 2019, 10:08 am

It's been a low quality but exciting series so far. There's an obsession with 2005, but we won't see a series like that again for a very long time, if ever. This reminds me more of 2009 which ebbed and flowed but featured some truly horrendous players such as Marcus North and Ravi Bopara

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 02 Sep 2019, 10:18 am

VTR wrote:It's been a low quality but exciting series so far. There's an obsession with 2005, but we won't see a series like that again for a very long time, if ever. This reminds me more of 2009 which ebbed and flowed but featured some truly horrendous players such as Marcus North and Ravi Bopara

Bit harsh on Marcus North. While coming late to test cricket and having an overall record that was solid but no more, that series was a good one for him. He was one of only 4 players to average over 50 (Clarke, Strauss and Trott also managed that, though Trott played just the one test).

Bopara - well best thing he did was to suck so much they brought in Trott.

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Post by VTR on Mon 02 Sep 2019, 10:23 am

Wow, didn't realise that. I still have the perception though he cashed in when there were already a lot of runs on the board, but was right in the middle of the collapses that cost Australia the series. Maybe a bit harsh to bracket him in with Bopara though

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 02 Sep 2019, 10:23 am

robbo277 wrote:So who are Australia going to bat at 3 is Smith returns for Harris and Khawaja opens? Head, Smith or Marnus? It's not a rock solid top 3, and with Warner off form it is probably equally as bad as England's.

Mitchell Marsh coming in at 6 for Wade probably doesn't overly weaken their batting, Wade has an 151 runs at an average just over 25, and 110 of those came in a ton at Edgbaston batting with Smith in that second innings. And although he might not get lots of wickets himself, the extra option with the ball may help the strike bowlers if England do decide to apply themselves to their batting, as they did in the second innings at Headingley.

The game, therefore will most likely rely on England's bowlers vs Smith. If England can get him (and Australia) cheaply then I think we'll win. If he makes another pair of 140s, then we won't. Simple game really.

Would be surprised if it is not Labuschagne at 3 Robbo, seems like they're going with Warner, Khawaja, Labuschagne, Smith, Head, Marsh, Paine as their lineup - and like you say, ultimately England's chances rely on how few they can get Smith out for (would also be handy if the slips/keeper stopped dropping Labuschagne).

As ever with England, it is how many we can cobble together with the bat and hoping one of Root/Stokes/Bairstow fire. Hopefully his knock in the 2nd dig at Headingley will have got Root back into some form of nick with the bat...would be real handy if he came to the party in these final two tests.
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Post by Duty281 on Mon 02 Sep 2019, 11:32 am

Weather not looking too promising for the test. Showers around for the first three days, but clear on the weekend. Hopefully we don't get that persistent English drizzle which lasts for hours.

It will indeed be Smith v England as the main battle, and I must say I don't rate England's chances too high! Maybe if Curran comes in, the left arm angle can cause him issues?

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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 02 Sep 2019, 11:34 am

Oh come on Duty Ed hasn't done that bad a job

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Post by robbo277 on Mon 02 Sep 2019, 11:55 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
robbo277 wrote:So who are Australia going to bat at 3 is Smith returns for Harris and Khawaja opens? Head, Smith or Marnus? It's not a rock solid top 3, and with Warner off form it is probably equally as bad as England's.

Mitchell Marsh coming in at 6 for Wade probably doesn't overly weaken their batting, Wade has an 151 runs at an average just over 25, and 110 of those came in a ton at Edgbaston batting with Smith in that second innings. And although he might not get lots of wickets himself, the extra option with the ball may help the strike bowlers if England do decide to apply themselves to their batting, as they did in the second innings at Headingley.

The game, therefore will most likely rely on England's bowlers vs Smith. If England can get him (and Australia) cheaply then I think we'll win. If he makes another pair of 140s, then we won't. Simple game really.

Would be surprised if it is not Labuschagne at 3 Robbo, seems like they're going with Warner, Khawaja, Labuschagne, Smith, Head, Marsh, Paine as their lineup - and like you say, ultimately England's chances rely on how few they can get Smith out for (would also be handy if the slips/keeper stopped dropping Labuschagne).

As ever with England, it is how many we can cobble together with the bat and hoping one of Root/Stokes/Bairstow fire. Hopefully his knock in the 2nd dig at Headingley will have got Root back into some form of nick with the bat...would be real handy if he came to the party in these final two tests.

Would make sense to keep Smith in at 4. No point disrupting your best batsman to try and solve a problem elsewhere.  Whistle

England seem to have more options to get the runs this series, but they all seem to be less reliable than Smith. You don't feel like anyone else on the Aussie side will single-handedly prevent a terrible collapse (e.g. Smith's 140 in 260 at Edgbaston), while with England you could see Root or Stokes doing it (but neither doing it as often).

We thought Leach might be a good bet against Smith, but he hasn't really had a good go at him. The only innings they both played together Leach took 1-19 in 11 overs. How many of those 66 deliveries were at Smith I don't know, but it can't have been many as England were very pace-heavy that innings.

If our attack is Broad, Curran, Archer and Leach we have 4 ways of attacking Smith (all the batsman really, but mainly Smith) and Stokes is obviously capable too. We can keep mixing things up and keep him guessing. He has ridiculous concentration and may be able to deal with everything we throw at him, but it won't be for want of options.

Simon Jones said in a column Old Trafford is normally good for reverse and if Archer can get it reversing he'd be a real threat, but if there's rain about it might not be as helpful if the ball doesn't scuff up as much (hardware supplies notwithstanding). Although saying that, if the ball is to reverse we'd need a batting side to stay in for 40+ overs to get proper use out of it, which is probably a 50/50 this series.

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 02 Sep 2019, 12:05 pm

So Joe Denly confirms he will be opening. 

Love some of the HYS comments on the Beeb article, especially this one:


Prefer to see Bairstow open with Roy & the pair given the green light to 'do a Gilchrist/Hayden' ~ Stokes showed what's possible if you take the fight to the Aussie attack. Play Burns at three, Root 4, Stokes, Butler and bring back Foakes to keep at 7 (or play Curran if you wanted extra bowler). 

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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 02 Sep 2019, 12:27 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
VTR wrote:It's been a low quality but exciting series so far. There's an obsession with 2005, but we won't see a series like that again for a very long time, if ever. This reminds me more of 2009 which ebbed and flowed but featured some truly horrendous players such as Marcus North and Ravi Bopara

Bit harsh on Marcus North. While coming late to test cricket and having an overall record that was solid but no more, that series was a good one for him. He was one of only 4 players to average over 50 (Clarke, Strauss and Trott also managed that, though Trott played just the one test).

Bopara - well best thing he did was to suck so much they brought in Trott.

North was rubbish though, he just had a good series. Overall he averaged 35 with the bat in tests and only bowled part time, and yeah OK that would get him selected for England now but he really was a very average player. OK Bopara maybe slightly worse, although he did at least have a spell as an effective ODI cricketer. 


In terms of the make up and quality of the teams though I think that series was a bit different. You still had a lot of big name stars on show, but both sides were very much on the wane. Aus would kill for Ponting Hussey and Clarke right now. England might even consider recalling an decade younger Pietersen now Strauss isnt in charge, Cook and Strauss would walk int the side with a stick of rhubarb and one hand tied behind their back, they had Fintoff Swann and a pre meltdown Panessar too, plus Anderson and Broad in their prime. 

2015 was the last time we had an equivalent lack of quality in my mind.  Steve Smith wasnt quite Steve Smith yet and the England mainstays were mostly in a state of mental and physical breakdown. 
Peter Nevill, Fawhad Ahmed, Mark Footit, Adam Lyth ..some pretty forgettable cricketers. Buttler Rashid and Bairstow all played for England but this was well before they had established themselves as competent cricketers in any format let alone tests. Aus were packed with journeyman cricketers who previously hadn't been good enough to get into Ashes sides that had been deemed rubbish (Voges, Rogers, both Marshes) and there had been a fallout with Shane Watson (never quite good enough) to boot. 

The games though were all very one sides with some absolute pastings handed out from both teams and England had somehow managed to make the fifth test a dead rubber. 2009 is more like this one in terms of the games being tight and the nip and tuck nature of the series. 

But I totally agree 2005 was a different thing entirely. You were seeing the first cracks appear in what had been the most dominant side ever in test cricket, but one still packed with legends versus a rising England side who hadnt won an Ashes series in the time any of them had been professional cricketers. That win series will always be special, whilst its following some of the drama like in the last test theres a slight empty feeling knowing England are kind of expected to win at home now (albeit the hard way more often than not) and that both sides are deeply flawed and a long way off the 2005 vintage. 

It does make performances like those of Stokes and Smith really stand out though, and show the difference between the mediocrity of the majority on the field and those who not only have he talent but are able to bring it to the party in tough circumstances.

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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 02 Sep 2019, 12:28 pm

LondonTiger wrote:So Joe Denly confirms he will be opening. 

Love some of the HYS comments on the Beeb article, especially this one:


Prefer to see Bairstow open with Roy & the pair given the green light to 'do a Gilchrist/Hayden' ~ Stokes showed what's possible if you take the fight to the Aussie attack. Play Burns at three, Root 4, Stokes, Butler and bring back Foakes to keep at 7 (or play Curran if you wanted extra bowler). 


Roy has already shown what you can do by taking the fight to the Aussie openers.  Whistle

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 02 Sep 2019, 1:56 pm

The guy who posted that comment cannot have been paying attention to the first half of Stokes innings. That he talks about Gilchrist/Hayden suggests he only watched ODI cricket.

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Post by VTR on Mon 02 Sep 2019, 3:07 pm

Or watched Jason Roy vs the new ball at any point!

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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 02 Sep 2019, 3:10 pm

....or checked if someone has made that joke already  Whistle

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Post by VTR on Mon 02 Sep 2019, 3:18 pm

I do like the idea though of Denly moving up, so Roy can face an older ball. I'm sure that facing a ball that's 2.3 overs older than usual will help his game significantly.

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Post by robbo277 on Mon 02 Sep 2019, 3:45 pm

Best partnership between two of the top 4 by innings:

Edgbaston (1st innings) - Burns and Root - 132
Edgbaston (2nd innings) - Roy and Denly - 41
Lords (1st innings) - Burns and Denly - 66
Lords (2nd innings) - Burns and Denly - 55
Headingley (1st innings) - Burns and Roy/Burns and Denly - 10
Headingley (2nd innings) - Root and Denly - 126

On two occasions, two members of our new top 3 have put on century stands. On another two occasions (both at Lords) our new openers have put on 50 partnerships.

A new role for Denly, but there's enough there to suggest that if Roy's contribution at the top can be considered negligible, there's enough talent in the now top 3 to cobble together at least one half decent partnership more often than not?

Stokes has so far come to the crease at 189-3, 80-3, 92-3, 64-3, 20-3 and 141-3. If we can get more out of Roy (and possibly Root as well with a bit better cover ahead of him) without diminishing what we've had from Denly, then we can look to push those numbers up somewhat.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 02 Sep 2019, 11:27 pm

Aussies go with Harris instead of Khawaja at the top of the order, and drop Pattinson - but it is tbc who comes in for him from either Siddle or Starc. No Mitchell Marsh, contrary to speculation

Surely, with just one win needed to retain the urn and Starc will come into the side? Sure he may leak a few, and might not be able to bowl long spells...but he’s a match winner, well rested and the obvious pick for me.
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Post by compelling and rich on Tue 03 Sep 2019, 7:43 am

got a ticket for tomorrow, keep having a nervous glance at the weather forecast. should definetly get some play. but can see it being bowler friendly as the whole test match looks like its going to be cloudy and overcast

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue 03 Sep 2019, 8:06 am

Is a shame that Anderson couldn’t be fit for this.

I’m not sure I care either way about Harris or Khawaja, and Labuschagne being forced in at 3 is probably the best way we could see him weakened. If Harris and/or Warner continue being a bit useless, Marnus is going to have to come in as a test number three. As is being shown in our side, being forced into number three can really limit the ability of a batsman. Granted, he can’t be worse than what’s been there originally, so it likely won’t weaken Smith, but maybe there’s a silver lining.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Tue 03 Sep 2019, 8:09 am

Labuschagne does bat at three in first class cricket so won't be a position alien to him at all.

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Post by KP_fan on Tue 03 Sep 2019, 8:55 am

Pattinson and Khawaja dropped.
Dropping khawaja purely because he is a Left hander and keeping Mitch Marsh or Wade in the 11 smacks of stupidity
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Post by compelling and rich on Tue 03 Sep 2019, 9:06 am

KP_fan wrote:Pattinson and Khawaja dropped.
Dropping khawaja purely because he is a Left hander and keeping Mitch Marsh or Wade in the 11 smacks of stupidity

someone had to make way for smith coming back, it was hardly going to be Labuschagne. he's been aus best batsmen behind smith

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Post by eirebilly on Tue 03 Sep 2019, 9:20 am

I actually think that dropping Khawaja brings more balance to the Aussie batting line up but if it were up to me, I would have Khawaja opening and drop Warner. Warner is in some horrendous form in test cricket, much the same as Roy...
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Post by VTR on Tue 03 Sep 2019, 10:06 am

Khawaja probably dropped for averaging 20 rather than anything else

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Post by Soul Requiem on Tue 03 Sep 2019, 10:09 am

Labuschagne and Smith have to bat 3/4 so one of the top three had to make; Harris has only just come into the team and Warner is far more likely to eventually find form than Khawaja.

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 03 Sep 2019, 10:51 am

VTR wrote:Khawaja probably dropped for averaging 20 rather than anything else


I think the issue is more that Wade keeps a place despite a career average of 28 and even with the century a series average of 23. I dont rate Usman that much but he is surely a better batsman than Wade? Im not sure about him as an opener but why cant he bat down the order, do they have to have an attacking middle? Why does Lambuschange have to bat 4? 

I just dont think Aus have their 6 best batsmen playing.

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