England RWC Thread

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Post by maestegmafia on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 1:56 pm

First topic message reminder :

Next match pre RWC is England vs Italy 6th September.

22/09/2019 England v Tonga 11:15 GMT
26/09/2019 England v USA 11:45 GMT
05/10/2019 England v Argentina 09:00 GMT
12/10/2019 England v France 09:15 GMT

England Squad:

Forwards: Dan Cole (Leicester, 86 caps), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter, 12), Tom Curry (Sale, 11), Ellis Genge (Leicester, 10), Jamie George (Saracens, 37), Maro Itoje (Saracens, 27), George Kruis (Saracens, 32), Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 59), Courtney Lawes (Northampton, 72), Lewis Ludlam (Northampton, 1), Joe Marler (Harlequins, 58), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 22), Jack Singleton (Saracens, 1), Sam Underhill (Bath, 9), Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 42), Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 53), Mark Wilson (Newcastle/Sale, 13).

Backs: Joe Cokanasiga (Bath, 5), Elliot Daly (Saracens, 31), Owen Farrell (Saracens, 70), George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 56), Piers Francis (Northampton, 5), Willi Heinz (Gloucester, 1), Jonathan Joseph (Bath, 41), Jonny May (Leicester, 45), Ruaridh McConnochie (Bath, uncapped), Jack Nowell (Exeter, 33), Henry Slade (Exeter, 22), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester, 33), Anthony Watson (Bath, 34), Ben Youngs (Leicester, 86).

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Post by SecretFly on Mon 16 Sep 2019, 10:39 am

Healy.  Healy was the culprit.  That man's got it too often in the head, God love him.

Then again if he was sitting outside all the while, maybe his screw ain't fully loose.  But that's only back to Gats smut talk.

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Post by lostinwales on Mon 16 Sep 2019, 12:13 pm

SecretFly wrote:Healy.  Healy was the culprit.  That man's got it too often in the head, God love him.

Then again if he was sitting outside all the while, maybe his screw ain't fully loose.  But that's only back to Gats smut talk.

I saw a guy go into the Sauna to do his exercise routine once when I was once reclining in a pool at a hotel in the middle of Arizona. (He was on his own and it was actual cardio work. I know what you guys are thinking).

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Post by SecretFly on Mon 16 Sep 2019, 1:39 pm

lostinwales wrote:I know what you guys are thinking).

Allow us our fantasies, lost. Don't deny us our fantasies.

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Post by robbo277 on Mon 16 Sep 2019, 5:57 pm

Nice of World Rugby and the ECB to collude to mean there's a short run in between the Ashes and the Rugby World Cup. Been quite a few months for International sport.

So we've got 6 days until our first game. 4 days until our first team announcement.

Mako and Nowell are out. Wilson and Cokanasiga are doubts. Only Eddie and his team will know how doubtful, but you'd suggest that there's not much point risking either for Tonga if you could give them another 4 days and be fit for USA. The whole squad will need a run out in the first two games, and any permutation we pick should be enough to beat either team.

Are we expecting full strength? Or a mix and match? If the former, we could get some clues to what Eddie is thinking for later in the tournament.

Genge or Marler will be an interesting dilemma at loosehead, although the rest of the pack probably picks itself (and if Mako were fit you could extend that to the whole pack). 9 is a shoot-out and probably Youngs is still favoured, while the back 3 with Nowell and Cokanasiga out becomes a bit easier to work out.

The real area of interest will be the midfield. Farrell, Manu and Ford, Slade or Joseph as the third?

Possible team for Tonga:
Genge, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Kruis, Curry, Underhill, Vunipola, Youngs, Farrell, May, Tuilagi, Slade, Watson, Daly
Cowan-Dickie, Marler, Cole, Launchbury, Lawes, Heinz, Ford, Joseph

Singleton, Ludlam, Francis and McConnochie being the four fit players to miss out, and all likely to come into contention against USA.

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Post by yappysnap on Mon 16 Sep 2019, 8:14 pm

lostinwales wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Healy.  Healy was the culprit.  That man's got it too often in the head, God love him.

Then again if he was sitting outside all the while, maybe his screw ain't fully loose.  But that's only back to Gats smut talk.

I saw a guy go into the Sauna to do his exercise routine once when I was once reclining in a pool at a hotel in the middle of Arizona. (He was on his own and it was actual cardio work. I know what you guys are thinking).

I was unlucky enough to see two people do their exercise routine in a a pool I was relaxing in. It was certainly some sort of cardio.

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Post by propdavid_london on Tue 17 Sep 2019, 11:12 am

Question: If someone gets a red card or match ban. Is a team allowed to call up a replacement into the squad for the next game?


For the opener I would like to see anyone play that needs that gametime, but isn't a risk for further injury - so ruling out Nowell and Mako. Possibly Cockanasinga and Wilson.


That being the case - surely Singleton needs a run out.
McConnochie, didn't have a convincing start so give him time. And we also need to see that Ludlam wasn't a one hit wonder.

Apart from those guys I want to see Slade playing to try and blast away cobwebs (that must be there after time out - look at Young's first game back). I would also like to see Joseph get a bit more gametime.

As for the rest - I guess its a bit of rotation for the first 2 Pool games.

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Post by propdavid_london on Tue 17 Sep 2019, 11:13 am

Maybe also put Daly back at 15 to give him more high ball practice - Although not sure Tonga will be the sort of team to test that aspect of his game.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 17 Sep 2019, 11:25 am

propdavid_london wrote:Question: If someone gets a red card or match ban.  Is a team allowed to call up a replacement into the squad for the next game?  

Do not believe so.

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Post by lostinwales on Tue 17 Sep 2019, 11:26 am

LondonTiger wrote:
propdavid_london wrote:Question: If someone gets a red card or match ban.  Is a team allowed to call up a replacement into the squad for the next game?  

Do not believe so.

So if, say, both TH props get red cards - what on earth happens for the next game? The team could not put out an allowable squad

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 17 Sep 2019, 11:45 am

I guess they would have to replace someone else in the squad with extra props.

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Post by lostinwales on Tue 17 Sep 2019, 11:50 am

LondonTiger wrote:I guess they would have to replace someone else in the squad with extra props.

Are the rules on replacement only that those replaced cannot return to the squad?

I guess what we are saying is that if a prop gets a ban and there are not enough spares - then you have to effectively sacrifice another member of the squad.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Tue 17 Sep 2019, 11:59 am

lostinwales wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:I guess they would have to replace someone else in the squad with extra props.

Are the rules on replacement only that those replaced cannot return to the squad?

I guess what we are saying is that if a prop gets a ban and there are not enough spares - then you have to effectively sacrifice another member of the squad.

That is my understanding. I'd imagine that in the case of the two tightheads getting red cards a winger would be sacrificed for Williams to join the squad with Marler covering the bench. What happens from there would depend on the length of the ban I suppose.

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Post by robbo277 on Tue 17 Sep 2019, 12:53 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:I guess they would have to replace someone else in the squad with extra props.

Are the rules on replacement only that those replaced cannot return to the squad?

I guess what we are saying is that if a prop gets a ban and there are not enough spares - then you have to effectively sacrifice another member of the squad.

That is my understanding. I'd imagine that in the case of the two tightheads getting red cards a winger would be sacrificed for Williams to join the squad with Marler covering the bench. What happens from there would depend on the length of the ban I suppose.

Replacements can only be called in for injuries and compassionate grounds, but replaced players cannot return. If England lost two players to red cards, then I honestly don't know what would happen. My guess is that there would be a bit of a bending of the rules.

E.g. front row in the squad: Mako (INJ), Marler, Genge, George, Cowan-Dickie, Singleton, Sinckler (BAN), Cole (BAN)

We'd pick Genge, George and Marler to start with Singleton and Cowan-Dickie on the bench. Then we'd name someone like Billy Vunipola as the 6th front row option, train him just enough to make it not dangerous and hope to hell we don't have to use him. We could even see him brought off "injured" to force uncontested scrums if he was forced to play there.

It's quite a farfetched scenario and not one I think World Rugby has catered for in the replacement rules.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 17 Sep 2019, 1:09 pm

Steve Borthwick wrote:"Piers, we want you to train to be cover at tight head prop"
Piers Francis wrote:F*** for a game of soldiers.
John Mitchell wrote:Oops, sorry Piers did not see you there. Whats that? You want me to remove my boot from your groin?
Piers Francis wrote:Boss, I cannot cope with this I need to go home on compassionate leave.
Eddie Jones wrote:Hi Harry? Get your passport mate you are in the squad.

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Post by Poorfour on Tue 17 Sep 2019, 1:16 pm

Or you put Mako on the bench and hope you don't have a genuine call to use him.
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Post by lostinwales on Tue 17 Sep 2019, 1:43 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Steve Borthwick wrote:"Piers, we want you to train to be cover at tight head prop"
Piers Francis wrote:F*** for a game of soldiers.
John Mitchell wrote:Oops, sorry Piers did not see you there. Whats that? You want me to remove my boot from your groin?
Piers Francis wrote:Boss, I cannot cope with this I need to go home on compassionate leave.
Eddie Jones wrote:Hi Harry? Get your passport mate you are in the squad.

Yeah the rules suggest that creative injuries may be required.

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Post by robbo277 on Tue 17 Sep 2019, 2:34 pm

Poorfour wrote:Or you put Mako on the bench and hope you don't have a genuine call to use him.

The issue with it being Mako on the bench is you may have to bring him on and risk him doing himself an injury. If you used a back row player who was fit they could just go down "injured" before the first scrum they'd have to play in and force uncontested. Or if there were just 10 minutes left they could risk it for the sake of maybe 2 scrums.

I'd say putting a non-front row player as a front row sub is about a hundred times more likely than say Francis or McConnochie sacrificing their entire World Cup by pretending they were injured so they could call up an extra prop. If I were Piers Francis in that situation I'd say I'd rather cover tight-head.

The chances of any of this happening are highly, highly remote though. Even more remote than Marler playing tighthead or Ford playing 9.

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Post by lostinwales on Tue 17 Sep 2019, 2:39 pm

You cannot have a non front row player at prop. It isn't safe. The rules do effectively force teams to either have 3 of each prop or 2 + 1 who can play both sides, and it isn't far off forcing teams to choose 3 front row combos.

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Post by robbo277 on Tue 17 Sep 2019, 2:49 pm

The rule states that the player you need 6 players in a matchday squad to be front row trained. There's no qualification on that - no minimum minutes of training or weeks practicing. Were an emergency situation to occur they can give someone a crash course and use them as an option of last resort.

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Post by alanmackie6 on Tue 17 Sep 2019, 5:04 pm

This is arguably the most difficult group,could well be top 3 will each lose 1 to another,could come down to points difference or try count.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 17 Sep 2019, 5:33 pm

alanmackie6 wrote:This is arguably the most difficult group,could well be top 3 will each lose 1 to another,could come down to points difference or try count.

If that comes to pass it will just mean this was the group of mediocrity. I may have to return and eat some humble pie, but France and Argentina are piss poor.

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Post by alanmackie6 on Tue 17 Sep 2019, 6:51 pm

With due respect Argentina only have there full strength in RWCS.piss poor?put any
NHside in the 4Ns there results would be similar

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Tue 17 Sep 2019, 6:58 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
alanmackie6 wrote:This is arguably the most difficult group,could well be top 3 will each lose 1 to another,could come down to points difference or try count.

If that comes to pass it will just mean this was the group of mediocrity. I may have to return and eat some humble pie, but France and Argentina are piss poor.

France are pretty much the text book definition of mercurial. If they decide to turn up they can beat anybody.

Argentina have some good players but the lack of a top quality 10 to control the game and the death of their scrummaging ability doesn't look good for their RWC aspirations.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 17 Sep 2019, 7:37 pm

They're piss poor surely rather than there. Either way their are.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 18 Sep 2019, 6:26 am

alanmackie6 wrote:With due respect Argentina only have there full strength in RWCS.piss poor?put any
NHside in the 4Ns there results would be similar

The first comment is no longer true. In the last 4 year cycle there has been absolutely no restrictions on their selections yet their performances and results have been poor. With very close to a full strength side they have lost home series to experimental sides from England and Wales 2-0. England were missing 17 or 18 players with the Lions. 

If Argentina come out do something they have failed to do in the last four years, then I will happily come back and admit I was wrong.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 18 Sep 2019, 8:05 am

It would be a huge surprise to me should we drop a point in this group to be honest.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 18 Sep 2019, 9:05 am

LondonTiger wrote:
alanmackie6 wrote:This is arguably the most difficult group,could well be top 3 will each lose 1 to another,could come down to points difference or try count.

If that comes to pass it will just mean this was the group of mediocrity. I may have to return and eat some humble pie, but France and Argentina are piss poor.

Their win loss records for the last four years are dreadful however both sides have no shortage of exceptionally talented players so you would definitely need to be on you game especially when you play them back to back.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 18 Sep 2019, 9:10 am

alanmackie6 wrote:With due respect Argentina only have there full strength in RWCS.piss poor?put any
NHside in the 4Ns there results would be similar

That really isnt true anymore. In the November series and rugby championship they have been selecting Europe based players and in the current Argentina RWC squad there is only a few from Europe.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 18 Sep 2019, 9:18 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
alanmackie6 wrote:This is arguably the most difficult group,could well be top 3 will each lose 1 to another,could come down to points difference or try count.

If that comes to pass it will just mean this was the group of mediocrity. I may have to return and eat some humble pie, but France and Argentina are piss poor.

Their win loss records for the last four years are dreadful however both sides have no shortage of exceptionally talented players so you would definitely need to be on you game especially when you play them back to back.

I agree that we cannot take either side lightly. Certainly France should not be as poor as they were in the 6Ns. However neither side is good enough that the game is not in England's hands. Play well and we win, fail to do that and then we may not. Some teams we could play well against and still lose - I do not believe France and Argentina are in this group.

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Post by maestegmafia on Wed 18 Sep 2019, 9:24 am

Here is a link to an article with JW on mental health in Rugby. Good read

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-union/the-ball-s-gone-over-where-am-i-jonny-wilkinson-on-mental-health-and-that-drop-goal-20190916-p52rmb.html

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Post by alanmackie6 on Wed 18 Sep 2019, 11:38 am


IF Argentina are sensible with their timing they have a very good running game,on theirday
they can beat anyone barNZ.Not concede a point?maybe a lot of losing bonus points.The
hype is reaching 2015 levels.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 18 Sep 2019, 11:41 am

There is very little hype about England really, and lets face it we are in a much easier group than last time.

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Post by maestegmafia on Wed 18 Sep 2019, 11:42 am

alanmackie6 wrote:
IF Argentina are sensible with their timing they have a very good running game,on theirday
they can beat anyone barNZ.Not concede a point?maybe a lot of losing bonus points.The
hype is reaching 2015 levels.

They were pretty close to beating NZ this year in the RC.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Wed 18 Sep 2019, 11:44 am

I see Mark McCall is backing England to win it.

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Post by lostinwales on Wed 18 Sep 2019, 11:52 am

alanmackie6 wrote:
IF Argentina are sensible with their timing they have a very good running game,on theirday
they can beat anyone barNZ.Not concede a point?maybe a lot of losing bonus points.The
hype is reaching 2015 levels.

If things fall the right way you can always get extreme results, but England will have a better running game and a much much better defense. There are ways to beat this England side, but it requires a kind of suffocating ball control and precision that only a handful of teams are capable of.

England should beat Argentina with a large degree of comfort. It won't necessarily be because England are that much better, more that they are very well suited to playing a team like Argentina.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 18 Sep 2019, 12:00 pm

England set off for the 941-mile trip to Sapporo on Wednesday as their World Cup opener against Tonga draws closer. They signed off their final session in Miyazaki with an encouraging injury update after all 31 members of the squad played some part in training with Mako Vunipola (hamstring) and Jack Nowell (ankle) also involved.


Vunipola participated in live scrummaging while Nowell completed sprints down the side of the pitch. The Saracens prop and Exeter wing are the only players ruled out against Tonga with Jones naming his team on Friday.

From Rugby Pass

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Post by BamBam on Wed 18 Sep 2019, 12:02 pm

Good news! Would be great if both could get a bit of time off the bench in the later group games, but would rather play it safe

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 18 Sep 2019, 12:25 pm

Since the last World Cup Argentina have won 8 matches, losing 33. They are on a 9 match losing streak. They may pull something out of the bag this tournament but it would surprise me.

France's record is not much better with 14 wins and a draw from 40 games.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 18 Sep 2019, 12:36 pm

LondonTiger wrote:There is very little hype about England really, and lets face it we are in a much easier group than last time.

Are you serious? All the hype for this RWC is around England.

One the one hand I can understand why as they have great players and are capable of big performances, however, its been a few years since they won the six nations and there have been a few implosions in the last few years. By and large they are good value for the hype.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Wed 18 Sep 2019, 12:48 pm

It depends how much stock you place in the recent six nations, Wales were steady throughout but there doesn't appear to be much more to come from them, Ireland look shambolic one week and then tough to beat the next without setting pulses racing while England can produce wonder performances but also completely fall apart sometimes in the same match. At their absolute best England look a match for anyone whereas Wales need some assistance from the opposition.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 18 Sep 2019, 1:04 pm

Wales got a grand slam and England only won 3 games!! Not sure Wales are getting the credit they deserve here.

Ireland also won three games by the way and are considered desperately off form.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 18 Sep 2019, 1:49 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:There is very little hype about England really, and lets face it we are in a much easier group than last time.

Are you serious? All the hype for this RWC is around England.

One the one hand I can understand why as they have great players and are capable of big performances, however, its been a few years since they won the six nations and there have been a few implosions in the last few years. By and large they are good value for the hype.

I really have not seen a lot of hype about us - certainly not from English news or players. Wales, not unreasonably, were being hyped pre-warm ups, now it is South Africa.

There are of course interviews with people about England here but nothing to suggest that anyone views us as teh favourites.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 18 Sep 2019, 1:50 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I see Mark McCall is backing England to win it.

Aha - an Ulsterman providing the hype I have been missing Run

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac on Wed 18 Sep 2019, 1:51 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Wales got a grand slam and England only won 3 games!! Not sure Wales are getting the credit they deserve here.

Ireland also won three games by the way and are considered desperately off form.

Wales thoroughly deserved the Grand Slam, however, it’s whether that form can be replicated on the World Stage.
Wales relied on a very strong defence and scored relatively few tries. They played the 2 strongest opponents at home and of course the WC is not at the PS.
The warm ups can’t be relied upon totally, as far as results are concerned, for form because of the relative strength of the teams put out against each other.

However, most observers felt that Ireland and England looked stronger overall in those games and question marks arose not only about the Welsh defence but their set piece.

The overall betting is about right
NZ 6/4
SA Eng 9/2
Ire 10/1
Wal 12/1

with the most popular bet being Wales.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 18 Sep 2019, 2:12 pm

Its that confusion of applying 1 persons views to a group. I fancy england to win the wc as I've said. I think they're the best team. I've said I think we'll come out of the group with all our bonus points and none conceded. I've also said its sport and the reason we all watch it is that nothing is set in stone. N

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 18 Sep 2019, 2:21 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Its that confusion of applying 1 persons views to a group. I fancy england to win the wc as I've said. I think they're the best team. I've said  I think we'll come out of the group with all our bonus points and none conceded. I've also said its sport and the reason we all watch it is that nothing is set in stone. N

No, no no. You are everyone. You speak for us. This is GroupThink Wink

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Post by mikey_dragon on Wed 18 Sep 2019, 2:29 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Its that confusion of applying 1 persons views to a group. I fancy england to win the wc as I've said. I think they're the best team. I've said  I think we'll come out of the group with all our bonus points and none conceded. I've also said its sport and the reason we all watch it is that nothing is set in stone. N

Are you Rob Howley?

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Post by Afro on Wed 18 Sep 2019, 2:31 pm

I am the eternal pessimist ahead so I am only every proved correct or happily proved wrong.

Good thing is it can't really go any worse than 2015
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Post by lostinwales on Wed 18 Sep 2019, 2:33 pm

Afro wrote:I am the eternal pessimist ahead so I am only every proved correct or happily proved wrong.

Good thing is it can't really go any worse than 2015

Does sound like the team really let the pressure get to them last time around. It is not at home and we have a very experienced coach this time around.

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Post by king_carlos on Wed 18 Sep 2019, 2:34 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I see Mark McCall is backing England to win it.

Aha - an Ulsterman providing the hype I have been missing Run
1.Vunipola 2.George 3.Vickery 4.Itoje 5.Kruis 6.Isiekwe 7.Earl 8.Vunipola
9.Spencer 10.Farrell 11.Daly 12.Lozowski 13.Tompkins 14.Lewington 15.Goode

McCall has a point to be fair...  Wink

A shame that Sarries couldn't tempt Vickery away from High Wicombe when they got Billy from Wasps. Big Phil is definitely an investment for the future.


Last edited by king_carlos on Wed 18 Sep 2019, 2:45 pm; edited 1 time in total

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