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Post by JuliusHMarx on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 9:39 am

First topic message reminder :

Tea anyone?

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 8:43 am

If no-deal is blocked by law, what then for the Brexit party? Didn’t they say they’d step out of old Boris’s way if he promised a no-deal? Do they combine with him to push for a harder Brexit or are they basically pointless with no-deal off the table?

Is it just time for Boris to welcome Farage into the party and Nige can dump the followers he no longer needs?

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Post by Pr4wn on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 8:45 am

Soul Requiem wrote:It takes a complete lack of understanding to not see how this played into his hands perfectly, he purges the party gets his general election and then has complete control.

It was a queen sacrifice played to perfection as far as he's concerned.

He literally lost his parliamentary majority. He now cannot accomplish anything. Not to mention the humiliation he suffered in the House yesterday. He's also shown himself, yet again, to be completely untrustworthy. Nobody in the House believes a word he says. The difference now is that he no longer has control of the situation. His plan all along was to call the GE and then change the date so that the UK exited without a deal on October 31st. Parliament is now going to stop that from happening and quite right too.

The majority of the House is now united in stopping Johnson from taking the UK out without a deal. He's accomplished that, I suppose.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 8:46 am

No deal isn't off the table, delaying things by three months doesn't do anything but kick the can for a while.

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Post by Samo on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 8:46 am

Duty281 wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:The Brexit Party have no MPs.

No, but they a pretty sizeable number of voters - about 3.7-4.7 million.

If Johnson gets BP candidates to stand down in areas where the Tories need to win seats - broadly speaking, southern England and the Midlands - and allows BP candidates a free run at Labour constituencies which the Tories have no hope of winning - mostly northern England and parts of Wales - then that would work out quite well for him.

Roughly the same amount UKIP had last time they did any good and still got zero seats. Brexit Company Ltd. are a non entity. They couldnt even win a by-election in a leave constituency for gods sake.

Johnson is finished. They wont back a GE until this bill (which will pass) is enshrined into law. He says he wont comply, so he’ll lose either a VonC or a GE, whichever happens. This hasnt strengthened his hand at all, he’s on an even shooglier peg than before. When, not if.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 8:48 am

Pr4wn wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:It takes a complete lack of understanding to not see how this played into his hands perfectly, he purges the party gets his general election and then has complete control.

It was a queen sacrifice played to perfection as far as he's concerned.

He literally lost his parliamentary majority. He now cannot accomplish anything. Not to mention the humiliation he suffered in the House yesterday. He's also shown himself, yet again, to be completely untrustworthy. Nobody in the House believes a word he says. The difference now is that he no longer has control of the situation. His plan all along was to call the GE and then change the date so that the UK exited without a deal on October 31st. Parliament is now going to stop that from happening and quite right too.

The majority of the House is now united in stopping Johnson from taking the UK out without a deal. He's accomplished that, I suppose.
 You never cease to amaze with failing to understand the most simple things, Corbyn cannot save face without an election so there will be one sooner or later. It being now or in two months matters not a not.

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Post by aucklandlaurie on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 8:48 am

This is the most intriguing display of Western Politics for years.

The rest of the World is watching.

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Post by Pr4wn on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 8:50 am

Soul Requiem wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:It takes a complete lack of understanding to not see how this played into his hands perfectly, he purges the party gets his general election and then has complete control.

It was a queen sacrifice played to perfection as far as he's concerned.

He literally lost his parliamentary majority. He now cannot accomplish anything. Not to mention the humiliation he suffered in the House yesterday. He's also shown himself, yet again, to be completely untrustworthy. Nobody in the House believes a word he says. The difference now is that he no longer has control of the situation. His plan all along was to call the GE and then change the date so that the UK exited without a deal on October 31st. Parliament is now going to stop that from happening and quite right too.

The majority of the House is now united in stopping Johnson from taking the UK out without a deal. He's accomplished that, I suppose.
 You never cease to amaze with failing to understand the most simple things, Corbyn cannot save face without an election so there will be one sooner or later. It being now or in two months matters not a not.

Did I deny that there would be a GE? No.

The difference is that the GE will be on Labour's terms, not Johnson's.

Of course there is also the chance that, if a VoNC passes, Labour could attempt to form a government before a GE happens.

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Post by Duty281 on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 8:54 am

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:If no-deal is blocked by law, what then for the Brexit party? Didn’t they say they’d step out of old Boris’s way if he promised a no-deal? Do they combine with him to push for a harder Brexit or are they basically pointless with no-deal off the table?

Is it just time for Boris to welcome Farage into the party and Nige can dump the followers he no longer needs?

No-deal cannot be blocked by law, unless article 50 is revoked. This latest bill merely compels the PM to ask for an extension to article 50 until January 31 (which the EU27 are not compelled to agree to). In other words, more can-kicking.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 8:56 am

Whenever a general election happens isn't relevant, Johnson will win with a majority and be left to do as he so pleased, unless Labour find a new leader there's very little way around that.

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Post by Pr4wn on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 8:57 am

Duty281 wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:If no-deal is blocked by law, what then for the Brexit party? Didn’t they say they’d step out of old Boris’s way if he promised a no-deal? Do they combine with him to push for a harder Brexit or are they basically pointless with no-deal off the table?

Is it just time for Boris to welcome Farage into the party and Nige can dump the followers he no longer needs?

No-deal cannot be blocked by law, unless article 50 is revoked. This latest bill merely compels the PM to ask for an extension to article 50 until January 31 (which the EU27 are not compelled to agree to). In other words, more can-kicking.

Quite. And this misconception is a bit frustrating. A SR says, all this does is kick the can down the road and only if the EU agrees to it. The key difference, of course, will be that instead of working with a bloke that does absolutely nothing while calling it progress, they'll potentially get a fresh party. I think it's certainly in the EU's best interests to grant the extension.

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Post by Pr4wn on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 8:59 am

Soul Requiem wrote:Whenever a general election happens isn't relevant, Johnson will win with a majority and be left to do as he so pleased, unless Labour find a new leader there's very little way around that.

Just like when May was supposed to win with a majority at the last election?

And of course the timing relevant. Johnson wanted to have it after October 31st, thus stopping Parliament from being able to prevent the UK from exiting without a deal.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 9:04 am

He wanted to have it before the 31st October, the longer things are delayed the more it plays into his hands that Labour are blocking brexit. He could always call for a vote of confidence in himself, be interesting to see what would happen then.

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Post by Pr4wn on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 9:06 am

Pretty hilarious that the control Johnson now has stretches as far as calling a VoNC in himself Laugh

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Post by Soul Requiem on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 9:09 am

I didn't say a vote of no confidence.

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Post by Pr4wn on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 9:13 am

VoC then. Apologies for the slip up, chief.

It's still very, very funny.

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Post by Samo on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 9:14 am

Soul Requiem wrote:I didn't say a vote of no confidence.

You didnt need to, they’re the same thing.

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Post by Pr4wn on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 9:14 am

Samo wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:I didn't say a vote of no confidence.

You didnt need to, they’re the same thing.

Lol, let him have it, Samo. It's all he's got.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 9:16 am

Samo wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:I didn't say a vote of no confidence.

You didnt need to, they’re the same thing.

They're the complete opposite in fact.

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Post by Samo on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 9:20 am

Soul Requiem wrote:
Samo wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:I didn't say a vote of no confidence.

You didnt need to, they’re the same thing.

They're the complete opposite in fact.

How’s that then?

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Post by Soul Requiem on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 9:22 am

Wait so you honestly need the difference explained?

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Post by Samo on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 9:25 am

Yes.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 9:27 am

One is called by the government and the other is called against the government.

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Post by JuliusHMarx on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 9:34 am

BJ clearly from day one did not want a deal and has done virtually nothing to try to get one, whilst trying to pretend that he is - only the most dense can't see through that transparency. Of course, those that want no deal still support him.
His problem is that his history of bluff, bluster, about-faces and lies means that no-one in Parliament trusts him e.g. they know he will change the date of the election after Parliament is dissolved, so won't agree to the GE.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 9:40 am

JuliusHMarx wrote:BJ clearly from day one did not want a deal and has done virtually nothing to try to get one, whilst trying to pretend that he is - only the most dense can't see through that transparency. Of course, those that want no deal still support him.
His problem is that his history of bluff, bluster, about-faces and lies means that no-one in Parliament trusts him e.g. they know he will change the date of the election after Parliament is dissolved, so won't agree to the GE.
That lack of trust is corroding everything now. No-one will believe anyone will honour their word. It's been coming for decades anyway, as all the parties think their manifestos are simply a platform for lying and sucking potential voters in.
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Post by Samo on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 9:42 am

Soul Requiem wrote:One is called by the government and the other is called against the government.

Thanks for clearing that up. So apart from following exactly the same voting procedures and having exactly the same outcomes you’re right, they’re complete opposites.


JuliusHMarx wrote:BJ clearly from day one did not want a deal and has done virtually nothing to try to get one, whilst trying to pretend that he is - only the most dense can't see through that transparency. Of course, those that want no deal still support him.
His problem is that his history of bluff, bluster, about-faces and lies means that no-one in Parliament trusts him e.g. they know he will change the date of the election after Parliament is dissolved, so won't agree to the GE.

Leaks show Cummings has described the “negotiations” as a sham. He’s just paying lip service so he can lay the blame elsewhere when it goes tits up, but people are wising up to it now.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 10:06 am

Looking forward to Johnson's first PMQs later, which could conceivably also be his last.

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Post by superflyweight on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 10:12 am

Soul Requiem wrote:He wanted to have it before the 31st October, the longer things are delayed the more it plays into his hands that Labour are blocking brexit. He could always call for a vote of confidence in himself, be interesting to see what would happen then.


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Post by It Must Be Love on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 12:03 pm

While I agree Boris has screwed up, I agree with the points Duty and SR make.

Boris has made himself impotent. He has a majority of -20, and his (fake) negotiation tactic of threatening the EU with No Deal is out of the window, for now.

But I think the whole thing is a sham designed for Boris to convince Brexit Party voters to vote for him instead. Farage was praising Boris' decision to kick out the 20 MPs. There's a reason they sent out Rees Mogg on the eve of the vote yesterday, despite knowing his arrogance would make it even more likely they'll lose the vote.

The way it stands I see Tories getting 40% if we have a Oct 14th GE, with Labour on 28% or so. Whether that translates into a majority is another matter, but along with the DUP they'll probably cross the line like last time.
One strategy that could save Labour is if they delay the election to Novemeber, the image of Boris being forced to extend Brexit could play into their hands. Depends on the perception of BP voters, would they blame Boris for extension?
Also we may have a recession confirmed when UK Q3 GDP is announced, that would be mid Oct but after Oct 14th I believe.

So Oct 14th election suits Tories, Nov election suits Labour. My belief is either way Tories will easily be the biggest party, but that doesn't mean they'll win power. We could end up with, Labour 250 + SNP 50 + Lib 30 = 330 vs Tory 300 + DUP 10 + BP 5 = 315. So Corbyn PM despite Tory +50/vs Labour.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 12:09 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:While I agree Boris has screwed up, I agree with the points Duty and SR make.

Boris has made himself impotent. He has a majority of -20, and his (fake) negotiation tactic of threatening the EU with No Deal is out of the window, for now.

But I think the whole thing is a sham designed for Boris to convince Brexit Party voters to vote for him instead. Farage was praising Boris' decision to kick out the 20 MPs. There's a reason they sent out Rees Mogg on the eve of the vote yesterday, despite knowing his arrogance would make it even more likely they'll lose the vote.

The way it stands I see Tories getting 40% if we have a Oct 14th GE, with Labour on 28% or so. Whether that translates into a majority is another matter, but along with the DUP they'll probably cross the line like last time.
One strategy that could save Labour is if they delay the election to Novemeber, the image of Boris being forced to extend Brexit could play into their hands. Depends on the perception of BP voters, would they blame Boris for extension?
Also we may have a recession confirmed when UK Q3 GDP is announced, that would be mid Oct but after Oct 14th I believe.

So Oct 14th election suits Tories, Nov election suits Labour. My belief is either way Tories will easily be the biggest party, but that doesn't mean they'll win power. We could end up with, Labour 250 + SNP 50 + Lib 30 = 330 vs Tory 300 + DUP 10 + BP 5 = 315. So Corbyn PM despite Tory +50/vs Labour.

The Brexit Party are dead against leaving with a deal. The only way they stand aside or cooperate with the Conservatives is if the Conservatives actively pursue no deal, which Johnson's ostensibly still hoping to avoid.

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Post by It Must Be Love on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 12:13 pm

Fair ^
But I think in any marginal, Boris has done enough to convince BP voters to vote Tory. They won’t want to split the Leave vote and let in Labour, and trust Boris to deliver Brexit.
The only thing I can’t work out is if Boris is forced to delay by law and election is in November, would they no longer trust Boris? It would mean Boris has gone back on his Oct 31st pledge. I have a feeling the media who support Boris would put all blame on parliament.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 12:15 pm

This is Johnson's predicament. From the BBC's Chris Mason:

Labour MPs are demanding the party leadership puts off endorsing a general election until after 31 October.

At a packed meeting of the Parliamentary Labour Party this morning addressed by Sir Keir Starmer, I’m told one MP after another said the party must put off backing an election until Brexit has actually been delayed.

One MP, I’m told, said: "Johnson said had said it is Brexit do or die on 31 October. I want him to die."

MPs are confident the leadership is receptive to the idea - because of the potential to weaken Boris Johnson, forcing him to request a delay to Brexit and so break his key election promise.

But others fear Jeremy Corbyn will push for an election later this week, at the point at which the bill demanding a delay has become law.

"The Fixed Term Parliaments Act allows us to be creative, it gives us power, we have to use that now," said one MP.

One or the organisers of the cross-party talks on stopping no deal suggested others are receptive to doing whatever is necessary to ensure the demands of the bill - if passed - are implemented... and this can only happen if an election doesn’t happen before 31 October.

"We’ve got him. Johnson’s in real trouble if we don’t play his game. We force him to break his own promise, have the Brexit Party all over him, and then we take him on in an election," another MP said.

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Post by Duty281 on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 12:16 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:The way it stands I see Tories getting 40% if we have a Oct 14th GE, with Labour on 28% or so. Whether that translates into a majority is another matter, but along with the DUP they'll probably cross the line like last time. .

If that happened, it would almost certainly result in a big outright parliamentary majority for the Tories.

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Post by It Must Be Love on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 12:21 pm

Duty281 wrote:
It Must Be Love wrote:The way it stands I see Tories getting 40% if we have a Oct 14th GE, with Labour on 28% or so. Whether that translates into a majority is another matter, but along with the DUP they'll probably cross the line like last time. .

If that happened, it would almost certainly result in a big outright parliamentary majority for the Tories.
Perhaps so, but even then they have a few obstacles.
They may lose 8 seats of the 20 they’ve kicked out. They’ll lose 12 seats to the SNP in Scotland. They’ll probably lose around 20 Lib Dem marginals. So that’s -40 on the 310 they had last time. For outright majority they’ll need to gain 60 which is doable if they get 40% but touch and go.

Anyway that prediction is for a Oct 14th election. I don’t think Labour will allow that. Nov election suits Labour more.

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Post by JuliusHMarx on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 12:57 pm

"Last month, the UK government announced EU free movement rules would end immediately if there was a no-deal Brexit on 31 October."

"However, it emerged at the weekend that the plan had been dropped because the government could have been challenged in the courts."

They've only had 3 years to work out the legalities.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49579480

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Post by No name Bertie on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 2:00 pm

As I have mentioned before - Boris Johnson's actions can be explained through the simple political expediency of trying to save the Conservative Party.  Saving "Britain" (whatever that means) is subsidiary to saving the Conservative Party following:

a) 2015 General Election & the Conservative Manifesto including the EU Referendum.
b) The RESULT of the 2016 EU Referendum.
c) 2017 General Election & the Conservative Manifesto (to deliver Brexit)

Politically Boris Johnson has to appease the Conservative Voters.  The alternative is the destruction of the Conservative Party at the hands of the Conservative Voters (many of whom say they will never vote for the Conservatives again).

Whatever happens next - let's say a general election is called and a Labour - LibDem  Coalition get into power - and either a new EU referendum (Labour policy?) is called or Brexit is simply revoked (LibDem policy) - then the Conservative Party survives to fight another day.  

But it will be a "new" more nationalistic Conservative Party in order to appease the anti-EU voter (mainly Conservative & "Brexit" party).  Boris Johnson can say we tried but political traitors prevented us - we have now purged those from our party.  Come vote for us next time.  It may work - it may not work in saving the Conservative Party in light of a non-Brexit.

Whatever happens next - as soon as David Cameron put the EU Referendum on the 2015 GE Conservative Manifesto - has led to a chain of reactions - that will change the face of British Politics one way or the other for some time to come.  And Britain is now divided.

What has made this extremely toxic is for people claiming the high moral ground sticking labels on others and acting as sanctimonious authoritiarian bullies.

I have to say things would be a lot better in terms of a safety net - if Labour was not currently being led by Jeremy Corbyn - a lifelong anti- British Establishment activist and "Marxist" (old school socialist).

ps I have to say I still don't fully understand the ins and out of trying to come up with a deal with the EU and who is to blame with that - the EU, British Government, Internal divisions within the Conservative Party, an unrealistic process, an unrealistic timetable ...  My overall impression is that the timetable is all wrong - any form of Brexit is necessarily a long drawn out process.  But for that I blame David Cameron for giving the impression it was a quick process - well within his own Prime Ministerial term of office following the 2015 GE.


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Post by JuliusHMarx on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 2:07 pm

In summary you're saying BJ is putting party interests ahead of national interests - which seems to me to be a) correct and b) a good reason why he is a very poor PM.

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Post by It Must Be Love on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 2:15 pm

I only see one way out that doesn't end in disaster for the country at the next election:

-Out of those 20 sacked Tory rebels (now independents) who blocked No Deal, atleast 10 win re-election
-Tories and DUP get 315 seats, needing those 10 independents to form a government.
-Boris makes cosmetic changes to May's WA, and it passes House of Commons (20 Labour MPs have now pledged to vote for it).
-No Deal Brexit would lead to long term serious economic damage to our country (https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/09/ivan-rogers-the-realities-of-a-no-deal-brexit/)
-Corbyn and SNP in a coalition would bring about far-left policies which would also destroy the economy.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 2:21 pm

No name Bertie wrote:Whatever happens next - let's say a general election is called and a Labour - LibDem  Coalition get into power - and either a new EU referendum (Labour policy?) is called or Brexit is simply revoked (LibDem policy) - then the Conservative Party survives to fight another day.  

I'm pretty sure that's not Lib Dem policy - they want a second referendum too.

I don't think any party proposes to revoke Article 50 without the people asking for it to be revoked. To do that really would be undemocratic (even though the referendum was advisory).

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 3:26 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:I only see one way out that doesn't end in disaster for the country at the next election:

-Out of those 20 sacked Tory rebels (now independents) who blocked No Deal, atleast 10 win re-election
-Tories and DUP get 315 seats, needing those 10 independents to form a government.
-Boris makes cosmetic changes to May's WA, and it passes House of Commons (20 Labour MPs have now pledged to vote for it).
-No Deal Brexit would lead to long term serious economic damage to our country (https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/09/ivan-rogers-the-realities-of-a-no-deal-brexit/)
-Corbyn and SNP in a coalition would bring about far-left policies which would also destroy the economy.

The Labour manifesto isn't far left....

The SNP aren't far left...

Hyperbolic crap is no substitute for a reasoned argument.


Last edited by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 3:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 3:30 pm

Duty281 wrote:
It Must Be Love wrote:The way it stands I see Tories getting 40% if we have a Oct 14th GE, with Labour on 28% or so. Whether that translates into a majority is another matter, but along with the DUP they'll probably cross the line like last time. .

If that happened, it would almost certainly result in a big outright parliamentary majority for the Tories.

I think there will be a lot of tactical voting....

Could Johnson get a big majority.....Maybe....But if I was in a marginal I'd vote for Plaid...SNP...Green...Lib Dem...anything to stop this filthy racist winning....There are no doubt plenty who would/will do the same..

As People give their Party of preference in these polls without stating if they will vote tactically..

Not sure they can be trusted too much..

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 4:40 pm

It is crystal clear what BJ's agenda is. Some in the HoC spotted this months ago - running down the clock in a bid for his No Deal. He has been in power for weeks now and by all accounts he has held no meaningful talks AT ALL on getting a new deal. Brexit is the biggest issue the UK has faced for generations and yet he has done nothing to suggest he is remotely interested in getting a deal. Whats more he blatantly lies saying progress has been made in talks when clearly none has gone on according to many in the know in the EU.
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 4:43 pm

100,000 People have registered to vote in the last 48 hours apparently..

Imagine mainly kids...

Wonder if the kids will come out to play again in a few weeks time like in 2017..

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 5:21 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:It is crystal clear what BJ's agenda is. Some in the HoC spotted this months ago - running down the clock in a bid for his No Deal. He has been in power for weeks now and by all accounts he has held no meaningful talks AT ALL on getting a new deal. Brexit is the biggest issue the UK has faced for generations and yet he has done nothing to  suggest he is remotely interested in getting a deal. Whats more he blatantly lies saying progress has been made in talks when clearly none has gone on according to many in the know in the EU.

Added to that, he knows from his government's own risk assessments the damage a no-deal Brexit will do, and he's still happy to go ahead with it - and to tell the people of the UK that it'll be little more than a speedbump.


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Post by Samo on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 5:27 pm

Bill passes 329 to 300

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Post by JuliusHMarx on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 5:29 pm

2 more to lose the whip

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 5:30 pm

Which reminds me of the No Deal paradox someone pointed out the other day: if a no-deal Brexit would so damaging to the EU that the government thinks the threat of it will make them compromise, how can the government expect us to believe there's nothing for us in the UK to fear from it?

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Post by GSC on Wed 04 Sep 2019, 8:02 pm

beginning to suspect Boris is about to get his comeuppance
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Post by Pr4wn on Thu 05 Sep 2019, 2:13 am

Boris Johnson as PM: Played 3, lost 3.

Just catching up with PMQs, what an utter humiliation for Johnson. He was a fish out of water.

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Post by Samo on Thu 05 Sep 2019, 5:07 am

I think Corbyn missed a couple of great chances to really put the boot in but it was still crazy to watch. Johnson is quickly realising the gravity of the office he holds.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Thu 05 Sep 2019, 8:29 am

Can't help but think that both Johnson and Corbyn are playing this terribly, opening it up for the Brexit party and Lib Dems. The government are now pushing the delay bill through the house of lords or rather have stopped trying to block it as Corbyn has said once it has royal approval he'll agree to the October 15 general election, not sure what benefit that is to him or Labour at all. Anyone got any ideas as the leadership of both parties is all over the place, Keir Starmer seems to be calling the shots for Labour now and I don't blame him, very very capable politician in fairness.

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