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Post by JuliusHMarx on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 9:39 am

First topic message reminder :

Tea anyone?

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Post by It Must Be Love on Tue 10 Sep 2019, 8:02 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
It Must Be Love wrote:There isn’t a big difference between hard Brexiters and Scottish nationalists.
Blame the ‘other’ (whether it’s English or Europeans) for all the problems, and endorse policies which expert economists conclude will lower living standards.

Of course there is a difference.

Scotland does not have independence. The UK and Brexiteers do.
Scotland had a vote on whether it wanted to be independent, and voted to stay part of UK. Democracy matters.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 10 Sep 2019, 9:04 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
It Must Be Love wrote:There isn’t a big difference between hard Brexiters and Scottish nationalists.
Blame the ‘other’ (whether it’s English or Europeans) for all the problems, and endorse policies which expert economists conclude will lower living standards.

Of course there is a difference.

Scotland does not have independence. The UK and Brexiteers do.
Scotland had a vote on whether it wanted to be independent, and voted to stay part of UK. Democracy matters.

And a massive bargaining chip in the lead up to that vote was keeping EU membership. Many Scots were sold on that promise and been conned in the process.

Scotland voted categorically to remain in the EU in 2016 and again in the recent Euro elections where every constituency in Scotland voted for a pro-European stance.

Now the UK are on the brink of leaving and taking Scotland out and people feel okay with that??
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Post by It Must Be Love on Tue 10 Sep 2019, 10:27 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:

And a massive bargaining chip in the lead up to that vote was keeping EU membership. Many Scots were sold on that promise and been conned in the process.
The Tories had pledged a EU referendum before the Indyref. It was clear that if Scotland voted to stay in the UK that means some decisions will be taken that aren't devolved, and EU referendum vote was one of them. And despite that, they voted to stay in the UK.

I can see you're not happy with the Brexit vote, just like you're not happy with the Indyref vote. But that's democracy, sometimes the majority disagree with you and you have to accept it. You can't keep re-running referendums until you get what you want.

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Post by Steffan on Tue 10 Sep 2019, 10:29 pm

I know polls are not everything to go by. But I really think the worm has tuned in Wales

Brexit - Page 9 Eu_pol10

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Post by It Must Be Love on Tue 10 Sep 2019, 10:33 pm

This records all Scottish Indyref polling:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_Scottish_independence
Since Theresa May became Prime Minister, there have been 44 official polls. Of those 43 had a lead for No to Independence.

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Post by Steffan on Tue 10 Sep 2019, 10:48 pm

I still cannot for one second think why anyone sane or not totally thick would vote Brexit in Wales. We are a small country that has been a net benefactor from the EU get massive trade (for our standards) in the single market and customs union. There's just not one sensible reason for Wales to vote Leave

I'd take a second referendum (Leave with a deal or Remain) over a general election any day. Even if Leave won I would accept that there would actually be a plan in place now and we would have avoided the catastrophic no deal where places like Wales would have been hit the most

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 10 Sep 2019, 10:49 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:

And a massive bargaining chip in the lead up to that vote was keeping EU membership. Many Scots were sold on that promise and been conned in the process.
The Tories had pledged a EU referendum before the Indyref. It was clear that if Scotland voted to stay in the UK that means some decisions will be taken that aren't devolved, and EU referendum vote was one of them. And despite that, they voted to stay in the UK.

I can see you're not happy with the Brexit vote, just like you're not happy with the Indyref vote. But that's democracy, sometimes the majority disagree with you and you have to accept it. You can't keep re-running referendums until you get what you want.

You just do not get it. People voted differently than they would have done on the EU membership issue. There can be no denyingbof that. Even Westminster MPs say the EU issue is the biggest issue in British politics since the Second World War - that is how big it is seen. Scots voted No as they were told by Better Together it was the only way to safeguard EU membership - nothing like it will safeguard membership for two years.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 10 Sep 2019, 10:51 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:This records all Scottish Indyref polling:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_Scottish_independence
Since Theresa May became Prime Minister, there have been 44 official polls. Of those 43 had a lead for No to Independence.

And look at the recent swing too. Like I have said the genie escsped the bottle in the mid 1980s on independence. The numbers wanting it continues to grow and that trend will only continue.
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Post by Steffan on Tue 10 Sep 2019, 11:00 pm

If the UK does leave the EU then I predict Scotland will leave the UK

I wonder how many Scottish people are now kicking themselves for voting to stay in 2014

Sturge needs to get on the case and get a good manifesto together asap

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 12:23 am

Many are kicking themselves that they were led to believe they were securing their EU membership and that has proved to be wrong.

The manifesto will be being worked on I am sure.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 8:54 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
No name Bertie wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:There is a heck of a lot that Brexiteers aren't thinking about here. ...
Hi Craig, can I ask you if for whatever reason Britain does NOT leave the EU - let's say there is a "Brexit deadline deferral" to Jan 2020, and then Lab-Lib-SNP type of coalition comes into power - a new EU Referendum is ordered - and the result of that is to REMAIN - would this change your view and your voting intention regarding Independence for Scotland?  Or are you a committed Independence for Scotland - no matter what eventuallity?

I am committed to independence either way. I am committed to an independent Scotland in or out of the EU in whatever future transpires. I am done with being ruled over by the utter incompetents at Westminster who were not elected by Scots by the way. I want a government ruling over Scotland that Scots elected and that is not the case at the moment and has not been for some time.
Strange. Sounds a lot like Farage et al re. the EU....

Massive difference. I will leave you to trot off and work out what they are.
picard I point the right honourable gentleman to the comments that followed yours...
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Post by Soul Requiem on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 8:57 am

We might as well have each constituent regarded as an independent country going by Craigs somewhat archaic viewpoint or we can have Labourland, Toryville, Lib Dem World etc.


Last edited by Soul Requiem on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 8:57 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 8:57 am

No name Bertie wrote:Most people that I "see" commenting here and elsewhere would be absolute disasters as politicians.  It is very easy to criticise what we imagine we see on our screens through media coverage and commentary - but all politicians have to have a basic set of peoples skill.

For example I don't get the sort of targetting of CaledonianCraig for his separate views on Scottish Independence & Brexit.  The key thing is he is clearly articulating genuine views.  You might disagree with him - but you can at least agree to disagree - rather than try to persuade him his opinions are "wrong".  That ends up "personalising" the debate which tends to result in ever entrenched and polarised positions between ordinary people with online access.
You miss the hypocrisy of his earlier post re. Scottish independence cf. Brexit as espoused by Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Farage et al. I was calling out his hypocrisy. I respect that he wants an independent Scotland, whether I agree it makes any sense or not. I disagree with his recent reasoning on the basis of the obvious hypocrisy.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 9:05 am

Soul Requiem wrote:We might as well have each constituent regarded as an independent country going by Craigs somewhat archaic viewpoint or we can have Labourland, Toryville, Lib Dem World etc.
Pretty much. I think we should make Cornwall independent again as well. Scotland hasn't been a country in its own right for ever - where does one draw the line? Maybe an independent City of Liverpool? After all, they didn't 'vote for' a Tory Government either. Maybe all counties should be independent Nations? Hang on, where's that dummy I just spat out??

I think Scotland will go independent and then effectively give it up again by joining the EU. It's not about independence; it's just that they don't feel in step with the apparent majority opinion in England. Neither do I for that matter.
Can imagine Northern Ireland will unify with the Republic in the not too distant future and Plaid won't stop until Wales are independent. I don't think that for people such as Sturgeon and Price etc, it's really about what's best for the Scots/Welsh - all about power and their own personal legacies. Cynical? You bet.
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Post by Pr4wn on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 9:18 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:We might as well have each constituent regarded as an independent country going by Craigs somewhat archaic viewpoint or we can have Labourland, Toryville, Lib Dem World etc.
Pretty much. I think we should make Cornwall independent again as well. Scotland hasn't been a country in its own right for ever - where does one draw the line? Maybe an independent City of Liverpool? After all, they didn't 'vote for' a Tory Government either. Maybe all counties should be independent Nations? Hang on, where's that dummy I just spat out??

I think Scotland will go independent and then effectively give it up again by joining the EU. It's not about independence; it's just that they don't feel in step with the apparent majority opinion in England. Neither do I for that matter.
Can imagine Northern Ireland will unify with the Republic in the not too distant future and Plaid won't stop until Wales are independent. I don't think that for people such as Sturgeon and Price etc, it's really about what's best for the Scots/Welsh - all about power and their own personal legacies. Cynical? You bet.

While I agree that CC is being hypocritical about this, I think you're being a bit flippant. Scotland is still a separate country that is part of the sovereign state of the UK. Comparisons with Cornwall or Liverpool aren't really fair.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 9:33 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
No name Bertie wrote:Most people that I "see" commenting here and elsewhere would be absolute disasters as politicians.  It is very easy to criticise what we imagine we see on our screens through media coverage and commentary - but all politicians have to have a basic set of peoples skill.

For example I don't get the sort of targetting of CaledonianCraig for his separate views on Scottish Independence & Brexit.  The key thing is he is clearly articulating genuine views.  You might disagree with him - but you can at least agree to disagree - rather than try to persuade him his opinions are "wrong".  That ends up "personalising" the debate which tends to result in ever entrenched and polarised positions between ordinary people with online access.
You miss the hypocrisy of his earlier post re. Scottish independence cf. Brexit as espoused by Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Farage et al. I was calling out his hypocrisy. I respect that he wants an independent Scotland, whether I agree it makes any sense or not. I disagree with his recent reasoning on the basis of the obvious hypocrisy.

Point out the hypocrisy.

The UK is an independent country within the EU as is every country in the EU.

Scotland was once an independent country absorbed into the UK and seeks that independence again.

In short the UK is independent in or out of the EU. Scotland is not independent withon the UK.

Look at the differences. The UK asked for a referendum and it was granted at the drop of a hat by the EU. Scotland asks for a referendum in extreme circumstances and Westminster refuses.
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Post by Soul Requiem on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 9:36 am

You seek that independence, stop trying to transfer your personal opinions onto a whole country.

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Post by Duty281 on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 9:38 am

navyblueshorts wrote:I think Scotland will go independent and then effectively give it up again by joining the EU.

Agreed.

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Post by Pr4wn on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 9:38 am

Soul Requiem wrote:You seek that independence, stop trying to transfer your personal opinions onto a whole country.

Now this is ironic.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 9:39 am

Pr4wn wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:You seek that independence, stop trying to transfer your personal opinions onto a whole country.

Now this is ironic.

Where's the irony? If you can highlight anywhere that I make out my personal opinions are anything more than that go ahead.

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Post by Pr4wn on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 9:40 am

Duty281 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:I think Scotland will go independent and then effectively give it up again by joining the EU.

Agreed.

Again, this is flippant. Scotland would have far more independence within the EU than it currently does. You're comparing apples and oranges.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 9:44 am

Pr4wn wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:We might as well have each constituent regarded as an independent country going by Craigs somewhat archaic viewpoint or we can have Labourland, Toryville, Lib Dem World etc.
Pretty much. I think we should make Cornwall independent again as well. Scotland hasn't been a country in its own right for ever - where does one draw the line? Maybe an independent City of Liverpool? After all, they didn't 'vote for' a Tory Government either. Maybe all counties should be independent Nations? Hang on, where's that dummy I just spat out??

I think Scotland will go independent and then effectively give it up again by joining the EU. It's not about independence; it's just that they don't feel in step with the apparent majority opinion in England. Neither do I for that matter.
Can imagine Northern Ireland will unify with the Republic in the not too distant future and Plaid won't stop until Wales are independent. I don't think that for people such as Sturgeon and Price etc, it's really about what's best for the Scots/Welsh - all about power and their own personal legacies. Cynical? You bet.

While I agree that CC is being hypocritical about this, I think you're being a bit flippant. Scotland is still a separate country that is part of the sovereign state of the UK. Comparisons with Cornwall or Liverpool aren't really fair.
A bit flippant, yes. However, where do you draw the line re. a Country and its previous existence though? Comparison with Cornwall (and Wessex) is valid; Liverpool less so, but was using an an absurd example to illustrate the point.
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Post by Pr4wn on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 9:46 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:We might as well have each constituent regarded as an independent country going by Craigs somewhat archaic viewpoint or we can have Labourland, Toryville, Lib Dem World etc.
Pretty much. I think we should make Cornwall independent again as well. Scotland hasn't been a country in its own right for ever - where does one draw the line? Maybe an independent City of Liverpool? After all, they didn't 'vote for' a Tory Government either. Maybe all counties should be independent Nations? Hang on, where's that dummy I just spat out??

I think Scotland will go independent and then effectively give it up again by joining the EU. It's not about independence; it's just that they don't feel in step with the apparent majority opinion in England. Neither do I for that matter.
Can imagine Northern Ireland will unify with the Republic in the not too distant future and Plaid won't stop until Wales are independent. I don't think that for people such as Sturgeon and Price etc, it's really about what's best for the Scots/Welsh - all about power and their own personal legacies. Cynical? You bet.

While I agree that CC is being hypocritical about this, I think you're being a bit flippant. Scotland is still a separate country that is part of the sovereign state of the UK. Comparisons with Cornwall or Liverpool aren't really fair.
A bit flippant, yes. However, where do you draw the line re. a Country and its previous existence though? Comparison with Cornwall (and Wessex) is valid; Liverpool less so, but was using an an absurd example to illustrate the point.

I guess you can draw the line at "country or not"? Scotland is a country and has been for centuries. The others are not.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 9:48 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
No name Bertie wrote:Most people that I "see" commenting here and elsewhere would be absolute disasters as politicians.  It is very easy to criticise what we imagine we see on our screens through media coverage and commentary - but all politicians have to have a basic set of peoples skill.

For example I don't get the sort of targetting of CaledonianCraig for his separate views on Scottish Independence & Brexit.  The key thing is he is clearly articulating genuine views.  You might disagree with him - but you can at least agree to disagree - rather than try to persuade him his opinions are "wrong".  That ends up "personalising" the debate which tends to result in ever entrenched and polarised positions between ordinary people with online access.
You miss the hypocrisy of his earlier post re. Scottish independence cf. Brexit as espoused by Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Farage et al. I was calling out his hypocrisy. I respect that he wants an independent Scotland, whether I agree it makes any sense or not. I disagree with his recent reasoning on the basis of the obvious hypocrisy.

Point out the hypocrisy.

The UK is an independent country within the EU as is every country in the EU.

Scotland was once an independent country absorbed into the UK and seeks that independence again.

In short the UK is independent in or out of the EU. Scotland is not independent withon the UK.

Look at the differences. The UK asked for a referendum and it was granted at the drop of a hat by the EU. Scotland asks for a referendum in extreme circumstances and Westminster refuses.
CaledonianCraig wrote:I am committed to independence either way. I am committed to an independent Scotland in or out of the EU in whatever future transpires. I am done with being ruled over by the utter incompetents at Westminster who were not elected by Scots by the way. I want a government ruling over Scotland that Scots elected and that is not the case at the moment and has not been for some time.
You say Brexit is a disgrace for Scotland and yet Farage et al give exactly the same reasons, as you do above, for the independence of Scotland. You can't have it both ways.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 9:51 am

Pr4wn wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:We might as well have each constituent regarded as an independent country going by Craigs somewhat archaic viewpoint or we can have Labourland, Toryville, Lib Dem World etc.
Pretty much. I think we should make Cornwall independent again as well. Scotland hasn't been a country in its own right for ever - where does one draw the line? Maybe an independent City of Liverpool? After all, they didn't 'vote for' a Tory Government either. Maybe all counties should be independent Nations? Hang on, where's that dummy I just spat out??

I think Scotland will go independent and then effectively give it up again by joining the EU. It's not about independence; it's just that they don't feel in step with the apparent majority opinion in England. Neither do I for that matter.
Can imagine Northern Ireland will unify with the Republic in the not too distant future and Plaid won't stop until Wales are independent. I don't think that for people such as Sturgeon and Price etc, it's really about what's best for the Scots/Welsh - all about power and their own personal legacies. Cynical? You bet.

While I agree that CC is being hypocritical about this, I think you're being a bit flippant. Scotland is still a separate country that is part of the sovereign state of the UK. Comparisons with Cornwall or Liverpool aren't really fair.
A bit flippant, yes. However, where do you draw the line re. a Country and its previous existence though? Comparison with Cornwall (and Wessex) is valid; Liverpool less so, but was using an an absurd example to illustrate the point.

I guess you can draw the line at "country or not"? Scotland is a country and has been for centuries. The others are not.
They were though. It's simply an expedient of Scotland still being in existence as a nation. What if there was a call for an independent Wessex again?

Doesn't matter anyway. Scotland will go its own way and Sturgeon will be able to cement her legacy. Wonder who the Scots will blame for all their supposed woes in that event?
Maybe the UK should seriously investigate proper federation as an alternative to a complete breakup?
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Post by Samo on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 10:23 am

Pr4wn wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:I think Scotland will go independent and then effectively give it up again by joining the EU.

Agreed.

Again, this is flippant. Scotland would have far more independence within the EU than it currently does. You're comparing apples and oranges.

A Scotland that is a member of the EU and independent from the rest of the UK who are not members of the EU would be an ideal situation for Scotland.

Sure, we’d probably need to adopt the Euro over keeping the Pound but they’re basically worth the same these days so its not a huge deal. EU imports would also come into ours ports before being exported into England - however that would require a massive investment into infrastructure for both the ports and customs checks at the border (assuming theres a No Deal Brexit)

Its the kind of thing that would take years of planning and funding - time we just dont have right now. I support Scottish Independence but not in a “good-or-bad, come-what-may” Brexity kind of way. I could only vote for it again if I knew we would be better for it.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 12:05 pm

Samo wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:I think Scotland will go independent and then effectively give it up again by joining the EU.

Agreed.

Again, this is flippant. Scotland would have far more independence within the EU than it currently does. You're comparing apples and oranges.

A Scotland that is a member of the EU and independent from the rest of the UK who are not members of the EU would be an ideal situation for Scotland.

Sure, we’d probably need to adopt the Euro over keeping the Pound but they’re basically worth the same these days so its not a huge deal. EU imports would also come into ours ports before being exported into England - however that would require a massive investment into infrastructure for both the ports and customs checks at the border (assuming theres a No Deal Brexit)

Its the kind of thing that would take years of planning and funding - time we just dont have right now. I support Scottish Independence but not in a “good-or-bad, come-what-may” Brexity kind of way. I could only vote for it again if I knew we would be better for it.
It's a huge deal if the Scottish economy tanks. Just ask the Greeks, Spanish, Irish...

This drive for smaller, 'independent' entities that seems to be all the vogue just now is, in my view, a backward step. Nations are funny things. Watch some toddler children from all Nations playing together - they all get along fine, all playing the same games. It takes adults to really **** them up and turn them into nationalists with far less tolerance/acceptance of others.

What will be, will be. There's plenty of past evidence of how we can all make a mess of things, despite it being completely unnecessary...
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Post by Pal Joey on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 3:20 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
Samo wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:I think Scotland will go independent and then effectively give it up again by joining the EU.

Agreed.

Again, this is flippant. Scotland would have far more independence within the EU than it currently does. You're comparing apples and oranges.

A Scotland that is a member of the EU and independent from the rest of the UK who are not members of the EU would be an ideal situation for Scotland.

Sure, we’d probably need to adopt the Euro over keeping the Pound but they’re basically worth the same these days so its not a huge deal. EU imports would also come into ours ports before being exported into England - however that would require a massive investment into infrastructure for both the ports and customs checks at the border (assuming theres a No Deal Brexit)

Its the kind of thing that would take years of planning and funding - time we just dont have right now. I support Scottish Independence but not in a “good-or-bad, come-what-may” Brexity kind of way. I could only vote for it again if I knew we would be better for it.
It's a huge deal if the Scottish economy tanks. Just ask the Greeks, Spanish, Irish...

This drive for smaller, 'independent' entities that seems to be all the vogue just now is, in my view, a backward step. Nations are funny things. Watch some toddler children from all Nations playing together - they all get along fine, all playing the same games. It takes adults to really **** them up and turn them into nationalists with far less tolerance/acceptance of others.

What will be, will be. There's plenty of past evidence of how we can all make a mess of things, despite it being completely unnecessary...

Totally agree. You wouldn't want to revert back to a patchwork of smaller countries, states, duchies again like there was say a few hundred years ago.
Whilst some may consider the current state of the EU in need of urgent redress and that there are plenty of justifiable gripes from the stronger member countries currently within the EU - I still think the post-war cohesion which sprung out of the Marshall Plan and led up to the formation of the EU was a great achievement. It's just that at some stage things went out of balance again and you've now reached the point where you've been swamped by too many laws, rules and restrictions originating out of Brussels - and that the attempt at equalising the diverse inputs/outputs of the various member states is failing at several levels and needs some major overhauling or redefining to bring it in line with the current global situation.
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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 4:11 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
Samo wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:I think Scotland will go independent and then effectively give it up again by joining the EU.

Agreed.

Again, this is flippant. Scotland would have far more independence within the EU than it currently does. You're comparing apples and oranges.

A Scotland that is a member of the EU and independent from the rest of the UK who are not members of the EU would be an ideal situation for Scotland.

Sure, we’d probably need to adopt the Euro over keeping the Pound but they’re basically worth the same these days so its not a huge deal. EU imports would also come into ours ports before being exported into England - however that would require a massive investment into infrastructure for both the ports and customs checks at the border (assuming theres a No Deal Brexit)

Its the kind of thing that would take years of planning and funding - time we just dont have right now. I support Scottish Independence but not in a “good-or-bad, come-what-may” Brexity kind of way. I could only vote for it again if I knew we would be better for it.
It's a huge deal if the Scottish economy tanks. Just ask the Greeks, Spanish, Irish...

This drive for smaller, 'independent' entities that seems to be all the vogue just now is, in my view, a backward step. Nations are funny things. Watch some toddler children from all Nations playing together - they all get along fine, all playing the same games. It takes adults to really **** them up and turn them into nationalists with far less tolerance/acceptance of others.

What will be, will be. There's plenty of past evidence of how we can all make a mess of things, despite it being completely unnecessary...

With respect, I think you're a way off with your equating of the wish for independence with a lessening of tolerance and acceptance of others.

If I can be specific to the cause of Welsh independence, Plaid Cymru have said again and again that anyone who makes Wales their home is welcome here. We value the contribution of immigrants, both now and historically. We don't want to keep 'foreigners' out - that's not the motivation. The motivation is an acknowledgement that Wales will never be able to control its own destiny as part of the UK. That's just a statement of fact. Neither can Scotland (or Northern Ireland), as evidenced by the fact that a party can get a majority in Westminster just by 'winning' England. (Have a look at the relative number of seats.)

The Welsh government recently recommended the construction of a tidal lagoon in Swansea Bay. The Westminster government denied permission. Now you might not think anything of that - but why should it be in England's gift (effectively) what Wales can and can't do?

There are several independent countries in the EU, never mind around the world, that are smaller than Wales either in area or population, or both.

We see how Ireland is treated by the other countries of the EU - and we contrast that with how Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland are treated by Westminster.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 8:43 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
No name Bertie wrote:Most people that I "see" commenting here and elsewhere would be absolute disasters as politicians.  It is very easy to criticise what we imagine we see on our screens through media coverage and commentary - but all politicians have to have a basic set of peoples skill.

For example I don't get the sort of targetting of CaledonianCraig for his separate views on Scottish Independence & Brexit.  The key thing is he is clearly articulating genuine views.  You might disagree with him - but you can at least agree to disagree - rather than try to persuade him his opinions are "wrong".  That ends up "personalising" the debate which tends to result in ever entrenched and polarised positions between ordinary people with online access.
You miss the hypocrisy of his earlier post re. Scottish independence cf. Brexit as espoused by Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Farage et al. I was calling out his hypocrisy. I respect that he wants an independent Scotland, whether I agree it makes any sense or not. I disagree with his recent reasoning on the basis of the obvious hypocrisy.

Point out the hypocrisy.

The UK is an independent country within the EU as is every country in the EU.

Scotland was once an independent country absorbed into the UK and seeks that independence again.

In short the UK is independent in or out of the EU. Scotland is not independent withon the UK.

Look at the differences. The UK asked for a referendum and it was granted at the drop of a hat by the EU. Scotland asks for a referendum in extreme circumstances and Westminster refuses.
CaledonianCraig wrote:I am committed to independence either way. I am committed to an independent Scotland in or out of the EU in whatever future transpires. I am done with being ruled over by the utter incompetents at Westminster who were not elected by Scots by the way. I want a government ruling over Scotland that Scots elected and that is not the case at the moment and has not been for some time.
You say Brexit is a disgrace for Scotland and yet Farage et al give exactly the same reasons, as you do above, for the independence of Scotland. You can't have it both ways.

I have not said Brexit is a disgrace for Scotland. You are putting words in my mouth. I did say EU membership was made a key reason to vote No by Better Together in 2014 and it influenced how a heck of a lot of people voted.

And in any case the UK are already independent so do not know what Farage's beef is. Scotland is not independent. Big difference.
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Post by Pr4wn on Thu 12 Sep 2019, 2:12 am

Now you're arguing semantics.

Navy's argument is sound.

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Post by Samo on Thu 12 Sep 2019, 3:32 am

So Yellowhammer has been released and confirms pretty much everything that was written off as Project Fear, and people still think No Deal is a good idea.

Before anyone jumps in, remember that yellowhammer is the likely scenario, not worst case. Worst case is the Black Swan files, which contains stuff that was redacted from Yellowhammer and the government are still refusing to publish.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 12 Sep 2019, 4:59 am

Pr4wn wrote:Now you're arguing semantics.

Navy's argument is sound.

No it is not.

The UK is independent in or out of the EU. Farage will say otherwise but the facts are there before our eyes. It was allowed to choose not to adopt the Euro it was not foisted upon them by the heirachy of Brussels. The UK chose to go to war in the Middle East under Blair without the EU forbidding it. And it has chosen to leave the EU and was granted a referendum by the EU at the drop of a hat. All acts made by a truly independent country.

Scotland cannot make any of those choices at present. What Scotland wants is self-governing possible only with independence. What Farage wants is different as the end goal (however it ends) still sees the UK with its independence. It is just in Farage's crackpot world that he does not see the UK as independent.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 12 Sep 2019, 5:06 am

Anyway back to Brexit and it seems clear to me there is a viable option there for the Tories which they are foolishly overlooking. They should at least try to look like they are making an effort and go for the Northern Ireland backstop option. It means no hard border and going by polls it is favoured by the people of Northern Ireland. Only the crackpot DUP seem against it.

Even if BJ cobbles together a deal around this and it is rejected by parliament at least it looks like he has made an effort.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 12 Sep 2019, 10:04 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Samo wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:I think Scotland will go independent and then effectively give it up again by joining the EU.

Agreed.

Again, this is flippant. Scotland would have far more independence within the EU than it currently does. You're comparing apples and oranges.

A Scotland that is a member of the EU and independent from the rest of the UK who are not members of the EU would be an ideal situation for Scotland.

Sure, we’d probably need to adopt the Euro over keeping the Pound but they’re basically worth the same these days so its not a huge deal. EU imports would also come into ours ports before being exported into England - however that would require a massive investment into infrastructure for both the ports and customs checks at the border (assuming theres a No Deal Brexit)

Its the kind of thing that would take years of planning and funding - time we just dont have right now. I support Scottish Independence but not in a “good-or-bad, come-what-may” Brexity kind of way. I could only vote for it again if I knew we would be better for it.
It's a huge deal if the Scottish economy tanks. Just ask the Greeks, Spanish, Irish...

This drive for smaller, 'independent' entities that seems to be all the vogue just now is, in my view, a backward step. Nations are funny things. Watch some toddler children from all Nations playing together - they all get along fine, all playing the same games. It takes adults to really **** them up and turn them into nationalists with far less tolerance/acceptance of others.

What will be, will be. There's plenty of past evidence of how we can all make a mess of things, despite it being completely unnecessary...

With respect, I think you're a way off with your equating of the wish for independence with a lessening of tolerance and acceptance of others.

If I can be specific to the cause of Welsh independence, Plaid Cymru have said again and again that anyone who makes Wales their home is welcome here. We value the contribution of immigrants, both now and historically. We don't want to keep 'foreigners' out - that's not the motivation. The motivation is an acknowledgement that Wales will never be able to control its own destiny as part of the UK. That's just a statement of fact. Neither can Scotland (or Northern Ireland), as evidenced by the fact that a party can get a majority in Westminster just by 'winning' England. (Have a look at the relative number of seats.)

The Welsh government recently recommended the construction of a tidal lagoon in Swansea Bay. The Westminster government denied permission. Now you might not think anything of that - but why should it be in England's gift (effectively) what Wales can and can't do?

There are several independent countries in the EU, never mind around the world, that are smaller than Wales either in area or population, or both.

We see how Ireland is treated by the other countries of the EU - and we contrast that with how Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland are treated by Westminster.
picard I give up. Your post is fine, I have no issue with it so this is not a personal attack.

The whole issue is a 'grass is greener on the other side' load of baloney all dressed up in 'independence'. It's about impatience. It's also about being driven (like sheep?) by careerist politicians. Why not drive change of the larger entity that is the UK, or the EU? The idea that breaking something successful (demonstrably in the case of the UK and arguably in case of EU) up simply for some utopian 'independence' in this day and age is peculiar to me. Wales and Scotland are not former Soviet vassal states, part of what was once Yugoslavia or former Nazi conquests.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 12 Sep 2019, 10:10 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:Now you're arguing semantics.

Navy's argument is sound.

No it is not.

The UK is independent in or out of the EU. Farage will say otherwise but the facts are there before our eyes. It was allowed to choose not to adopt the Euro it was not foisted upon them by the heirachy of Brussels. The UK chose to go to war in the Middle East under Blair without the EU forbidding it. And it has chosen to leave the EU and was granted a referendum by the EU at the drop of a hat. All acts made by a truly independent country.

Scotland cannot make any of those choices at present. What Scotland wants is self-governing possible only with independence. What Farage wants is different as the end goal (however it ends) still sees the UK with its independence. It is just in Farage's crackpot world that he does not see the UK as independent.
Fine, but your use of the same language as Farage et al is, shall we say, poorly chosen. Ironic. As to your comment re. 'Farage's crackpot world'; it's laughable. In his opinion the UK isn't properly independent, exactly the same as you claim for Scotland. That's the problem though isn't it? Opinion. Regardless, your use of exactly the same tone and wording in your argument as Farage would do is unfortunate.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 12 Sep 2019, 10:11 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:Anyway back to Brexit and it seems clear to me there is a viable option there for the Tories which they are foolishly overlooking. They should at least try to look like they are making an effort and go for the Northern Ireland backstop option. It means no hard border and going by polls it is favoured by the people of Northern Ireland. Only the crackpot DUP seem against it.

Even if BJ cobbles together a deal around this and it is rejected by parliament at least it looks like he has made an effort.
Would make some sense, especially as Johnson has now lost his majority even with DUP votes. May as well cut them loose.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 12 Sep 2019, 10:16 am

Pal Joey wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Samo wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:I think Scotland will go independent and then effectively give it up again by joining the EU.

Agreed.

Again, this is flippant. Scotland would have far more independence within the EU than it currently does. You're comparing apples and oranges.

A Scotland that is a member of the EU and independent from the rest of the UK who are not members of the EU would be an ideal situation for Scotland.

Sure, we’d probably need to adopt the Euro over keeping the Pound but they’re basically worth the same these days so its not a huge deal. EU imports would also come into ours ports before being exported into England - however that would require a massive investment into infrastructure for both the ports and customs checks at the border (assuming theres a No Deal Brexit)

Its the kind of thing that would take years of planning and funding - time we just dont have right now. I support Scottish Independence but not in a “good-or-bad, come-what-may” Brexity kind of way. I could only vote for it again if I knew we would be better for it.
It's a huge deal if the Scottish economy tanks. Just ask the Greeks, Spanish, Irish...

This drive for smaller, 'independent' entities that seems to be all the vogue just now is, in my view, a backward step. Nations are funny things. Watch some toddler children from all Nations playing together - they all get along fine, all playing the same games. It takes adults to really **** them up and turn them into nationalists with far less tolerance/acceptance of others.

What will be, will be. There's plenty of past evidence of how we can all make a mess of things, despite it being completely unnecessary...

Totally agree. You wouldn't want to revert back to a patchwork of smaller countries, states, duchies again like there was say a few hundred years ago.
Whilst some may consider the current state of the EU in need of urgent redress and that there are plenty of justifiable gripes from the stronger member countries currently within the EU - I still think the post-war cohesion which sprung out of the Marshall Plan and led up to the formation of the EU was a great achievement. It's just that at some stage things went out of balance again and you've now reached the point where you've been swamped by too many laws, rules and restrictions originating out of Brussels - and that the attempt at equalising the diverse inputs/outputs of the various member states is failing at several levels and needs some major overhauling or redefining to bring it in line with the current global situation.
Precisely, but rather than fix what's a flawed, but potentially advantageous union that's naturally (given its short existence) not perfect, chancers are arguing for 'independence'. Ditto for the UK situation.
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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Thu 12 Sep 2019, 10:17 am

A couple of things:

Any Welsh politician who really was a careerist wouldn't be wasting their time in Plaid Cymru. They'd be in a more popular party, arguing for something more popular. No?

I don't know what's puzzling about the desire for self-determination, but I'm happy to leave it there. I'm not trying to convert anyone here.

Actually, one more thing: you say that the UK has been a success. Why is it then that Wales is one of the poorest parts of Europe? Where's our slice of this success?

But I am happy to leave it there - there's more pressing things at hand at the moment!

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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 12 Sep 2019, 10:30 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:A couple of things:

Any Welsh politician who really was a careerist wouldn't be wasting their time in Plaid Cymru. They'd be in a more popular party, arguing for something more popular. No?

I don't know what's puzzling about the desire for self-determination, i.e. not wanting to be vetoed by the country next door on green energy projects, and having a nuclear power station given to you instead (despite the fact that Wales produces more energy than it consumes), but I'm happy to leave it there. I'm not trying to convert anyone here.

Actually, one more thing: you say that the UK has been a success. Why is it then that Wales is one of the poorest parts of Europe? Where's our slice of this success?

But I am happy to leave it there - there's more pressing things at hand at the moment!
Fair play. I think independence politicians are on a wave at the moment, so pretty good for a career in actual fact. Your 'poverty' point though isn't just a Welsh, non-English thing though is it?

I'll leave it now. It's just I think that, philosophically, the potential breakup of larger (generally well-functioning entities like the UK) is a backward step in the 21st century and goes against the greater travel, understanding etc that cultures are gaining of one another. Clearly not something everyone agrees with!
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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Thu 12 Sep 2019, 10:36 am

As you've made the suggestion again, I'm going to have to object again to your painting of independence movements as a shutting off from the wider world. That's all. OK

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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 12 Sep 2019, 10:38 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:As you've made the suggestion again, I'm going to have to object again to your painting of independence movements as a shutting off from the wider world. That's all. OK
OK You seem a balanced, open-minded individual. Not sure that everyone else is.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 12 Sep 2019, 10:41 am

On topic for a change. What an a**ehole:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49670901
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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Thu 12 Sep 2019, 10:49 am

I'd like to think that he's intelligent enough to know that what he's doing is dangerous, and that he shouldn't be doing it - but having listened to him before, I'm not sure he is.

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Post by superflyweight on Thu 12 Sep 2019, 11:08 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:Now you're arguing semantics.

Navy's argument is sound.

No it is not.

The UK is independent in or out of the EU. Farage will say otherwise but the facts are there before our eyes. It was allowed to choose not to adopt the Euro it was not foisted upon them by the heirachy of Brussels. The UK chose to go to war in the Middle East under Blair without the EU forbidding it. And it has chosen to leave the EU and was granted a referendum by the EU at the drop of a hat. All acts made by a truly independent country.

Scotland cannot make any of those choices at present. What Scotland wants is self-governing possible only with independence. What Farage wants is different as the end goal (however it ends) still sees the UK with its independence. It is just in Farage's crackpot world that he does not see the UK as independent.

Correction - what around half of Scotland wants.

You're sounding dangerously like Salmond and also any of the current bunch of Brexity f*ckwits that claim to be speaking on behalf of the British people.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 12 Sep 2019, 11:22 am

superflyweight wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:Now you're arguing semantics.

Navy's argument is sound.

No it is not.

The UK is independent in or out of the EU. Farage will say otherwise but the facts are there before our eyes. It was allowed to choose not to adopt the Euro it was not foisted upon them by the heirachy of Brussels. The UK chose to go to war in the Middle East under Blair without the EU forbidding it. And it has chosen to leave the EU and was granted a referendum by the EU at the drop of a hat. All acts made by a truly independent country.

Scotland cannot make any of those choices at present. What Scotland wants is self-governing possible only with independence. What Farage wants is different as the end goal (however it ends) still sees the UK with its independence. It is just in Farage's crackpot world that he does not see the UK as independent.

Correction - what around half of Scotland wants.  

You're sounding dangerously like Salmond and also any of the current bunch of Brexity f*ckwits that claim to be speaking on behalf of the British people.  

Yes around half of what Scotland wants and rising all the time. The graph in support of independence is heading in one direction and the graph backing the union is heading the other way. Seems to be a heck of a lot of people here who claim to be speaking on behalf of Scots wanting to stay in the union too but you don't see me resorting to calling them fu**wits.
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Post by Samo on Thu 12 Sep 2019, 11:30 am

navyblueshorts wrote:On topic for a change. What an a**ehole:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49670901

Straight out of Trumps playbook. Thats how he's managed to get away with saying most of the Poopie he does.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 12 Sep 2019, 11:44 am

Claudius lying to the Head of State...

Where is Henry the 8th when you need him ???

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Post by superflyweight on Thu 12 Sep 2019, 12:32 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:Now you're arguing semantics.

Navy's argument is sound.

No it is not.

The UK is independent in or out of the EU. Farage will say otherwise but the facts are there before our eyes. It was allowed to choose not to adopt the Euro it was not foisted upon them by the heirachy of Brussels. The UK chose to go to war in the Middle East under Blair without the EU forbidding it. And it has chosen to leave the EU and was granted a referendum by the EU at the drop of a hat. All acts made by a truly independent country.

Scotland cannot make any of those choices at present. What Scotland wants is self-governing possible only with independence. What Farage wants is different as the end goal (however it ends) still sees the UK with its independence. It is just in Farage's crackpot world that he does not see the UK as independent.

Correction - what around half of Scotland wants.  

You're sounding dangerously like Salmond and also any of the current bunch of Brexity f*ckwits that claim to be speaking on behalf of the British people.  

Yes around half of what Scotland wants and rising all the time. The graph in support of independence is heading in one direction and the graph backing the union is heading the other way. Seems to be a heck of a lot of people here who claim to be speaking on behalf of Scots wanting to stay in the union too but you don't see me resorting to calling them fu**wits.

Didn't call you a f*ckwit.

The point I was making is that it is disengenuous (and in the wrong hands, dangerous) for anyone to claim to be speaking on behalf of any large group of people who demonstrably hold conflicting views.  Salmond used to do it all the time, Farage does it, as does Johnson, Rees-Mogg etc.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 12 Sep 2019, 12:53 pm

superflyweight wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:Now you're arguing semantics.

Navy's argument is sound.

No it is not.

The UK is independent in or out of the EU. Farage will say otherwise but the facts are there before our eyes. It was allowed to choose not to adopt the Euro it was not foisted upon them by the heirachy of Brussels. The UK chose to go to war in the Middle East under Blair without the EU forbidding it. And it has chosen to leave the EU and was granted a referendum by the EU at the drop of a hat. All acts made by a truly independent country.

Scotland cannot make any of those choices at present. What Scotland wants is self-governing possible only with independence. What Farage wants is different as the end goal (however it ends) still sees the UK with its independence. It is just in Farage's crackpot world that he does not see the UK as independent.

Correction - what around half of Scotland wants.  

You're sounding dangerously like Salmond and also any of the current bunch of Brexity f*ckwits that claim to be speaking on behalf of the British people.  

Yes around half of what Scotland wants and rising all the time. The graph in support of independence is heading in one direction and the graph backing the union is heading the other way. Seems to be a heck of a lot of people here who claim to be speaking on behalf of Scots wanting to stay in the union too but you don't see me resorting to calling them fu**wits.

Didn't call you a f*ckwit.

The point I was making is that it is disengenuous (and in the wrong hands, dangerous) for anyone to claim to be speaking on behalf of any large group of people who demonstrably hold conflicting views.  Salmond used to do it all the time, Farage does it, as does Johnson, Rees-Mogg etc.

And if you want to play that game you could also throw unionist supporting MPs of that as well such as Ruth Davidson, Theresa May, Richard Leonard et al.
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