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Post by JuliusHMarx on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 9:39 am

First topic message reminder :

Tea anyone?

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Post by Tattie Scones RRN on Thu 12 Sep 2019, 1:17 pm

superflyweight wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:Now you're arguing semantics.

Navy's argument is sound.

No it is not.

The UK is independent in or out of the EU. Farage will say otherwise but the facts are there before our eyes. It was allowed to choose not to adopt the Euro it was not foisted upon them by the heirachy of Brussels. The UK chose to go to war in the Middle East under Blair without the EU forbidding it. And it has chosen to leave the EU and was granted a referendum by the EU at the drop of a hat. All acts made by a truly independent country.

Scotland cannot make any of those choices at present. What Scotland wants is self-governing possible only with independence. What Farage wants is different as the end goal (however it ends) still sees the UK with its independence. It is just in Farage's crackpot world that he does not see the UK as independent.

Correction - what around half of Scotland wants.  

You're sounding dangerously like Salmond and also any of the current bunch of Brexity f*ckwits that claim to be speaking on behalf of the British people.  

Bit over the top Sups

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Post by superflyweight on Thu 12 Sep 2019, 1:26 pm

Is it? I can't think of anyone who's claiming that they know what the British people want and when they want it who isn't a f*ckwit.

Again, I wasn't calling Craig a f*ckwit, I was pointing out that in using terminology like "Scotland wants...", he was using language very similar to that used by those people who claim ownership over the wishes of the electorate.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Thu 12 Sep 2019, 2:25 pm

It sounds like the name of a migratory wading bird: the Brexity f*ckwit.

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Post by Pal Joey on Thu 12 Sep 2019, 2:38 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:It sounds like the name of a migratory wading bird: the Brexity f*ckwit.

Let me guess... their natural habitat is not the tidal lagoons of Swansea Bay? Laugh
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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Thu 12 Sep 2019, 2:42 pm

Laugh

There have been a few sightings!

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Post by Pal Joey on Thu 12 Sep 2019, 2:45 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Laugh

There have been a few sightings!

Looks more like the Pin-striped f*ckwit to me...
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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Thu 12 Sep 2019, 3:00 pm

That's an invasive species....

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Mon 16 Sep 2019, 3:56 pm

When asked what concrete proposals he had made, Mr Johnson said "there's been a lot of work" and "papers have been shared".

"We've got to manage this carefully. Yes, we've got a good chance of a deal. Yes, I can see the shape of it. Everybody could see roughly what could be done," he said.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49709430

There's nothing, is there? Sweet Fanny Adams.

What an utter embarrassment of a government we have.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Mon 16 Sep 2019, 3:59 pm

We're going to kidnap Pilate's wife, take her back, issue demands.

- You got all your demands worked out, then?

- 'Course we have.

- What are they?

- Well I'm not telling you!

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 16 Sep 2019, 4:09 pm

Boris is between a rock and hard place..

Brexit Party votes keeping him ahead in the polls..........Has promised we will be out by Nov 1....

So he will have to make a deal along the lines of May or postpone Parliament...

Not sure he can get away with the latter variant again and May's deal will be considered a sell out by the Brexit Party..

Why he wanted Oct 15...

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Post by lostinwales on Mon 16 Sep 2019, 4:09 pm

Boris just got humiliated by the Luxemborg PM and a handful of protesters. It's not a good look although it won't be reported much outside of the opposition media.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Mon 16 Sep 2019, 4:24 pm

Could whoever voted my post down please explain to me why it's not embarrassing that the prime minister is still talking in such painfully vague terms?

If the problem is the backstop, and there are credible workable alternatives to it, why haven't we shared them with our interlocutors yet?

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Post by lostinwales on Mon 16 Sep 2019, 4:28 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Could whoever voted my post down please explain to me why it's not embarrassing that the prime minister is still talking in such painfully vague terms?

If the problem is the backstop, and there are credible workable alternatives to it, why haven't we shared them with our interlocutors yet?

Apparently they don't want to release them because they are scared the media might laugh at them. Something about 'revealing their negotiating position' blah blah.

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Post by Pr4wn on Wed 18 Sep 2019, 10:05 am

This is from the notoriously liberal FT this morning:

"The FT this morning reports on a chastening encounter over lunch between Johnson, Michel Barnier and Jean-Claude Juncker, which one official described as a “penny dropping” moment for the prime minister over what it really means to replace the Irish backstop.

According to an account of the meeting, the prime minister was told by his EU counterparts in no uncertain terms that the UK’s plan to replace the backstop by allowing Northern Ireland to stick to common EU rules on food and livestock (known as SPS) was not enough to prevent customs checks on the vast majority of goods that cross the Irish border.

At that point, a befuddled Johnson turned to David Frost, his chief negotiator, and Stephen Barclay, Brexit secretary, and said: “So you're telling me the SPS plan doesn’t solve the customs problem?”"

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Post by BamBam on Wed 18 Sep 2019, 12:31 pm

Reading this gave me a good laugh on the train this morning

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/17/eu-given-brexit-draft-with-backstop-scrubbed-out-uk-sources-admit

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Wed 18 Sep 2019, 4:46 pm

It seems clear to me what BJ's game is. Fanny around and make soundbites that a deal is close and talks going well (all BS) to the British media and so peeing off the EU and so causing them to block an extension to Article 50 as they see the Tories are not serious about getting a deal. Westminster's bill will be powerless to do anything about it and voila ....No Deal Brexit.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 18 Sep 2019, 5:24 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:It seems clear to me what BJ's game is. Fanny around and make soundbites that a deal is close and talks going well (all BS) to the British media and so peeing off the EU and so causing them to block an extension to Article 50 as they see the Tories are not serious about getting a deal. Westminster's bill will be powerless to do anything about it and voila ....No Deal Brexit.
...but the E27 just voted to extend A50 if requested, didn't they? Quite clever I think - Johnson would get it if he asked, but he's promised we will be out (i.e. no more requests for extension) by Oct 31st. He's getting increasingly tangled up in webs of other people's making and I think he's too dumb to work it all out.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Wed 18 Sep 2019, 5:44 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:It seems clear to me what BJ's game is. Fanny around and make soundbites that a deal is close and talks going well (all BS) to the British media and so peeing off the EU and so causing them to block an extension to Article 50 as they see the Tories are not serious about getting a deal. Westminster's bill will be powerless to do anything about it and voila ....No Deal Brexit.
...but the E27 just voted to extend A50 if requested, didn't they? Quite clever I think - Johnson would get it if he asked, but he's promised we will be out (i.e. no more requests for extension) by Oct 31st. He's getting increasingly tangled up in webs of other people's making and I think he's too dumb to work it all out.

No I don't think any extension has been agreed yet. All there has been is talk that the E27 would be mad to not extend. That is as I understand it currently though I may have missed the confirmation.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Wed 18 Sep 2019, 6:30 pm

And this newspaper report seems to back up my thoughts:-

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-boris-johnson-deal-plan-deadline-ultimatum-latest-a9111066.html?fbclid=IwAR0_k3o_lQDsB5yo0Bmp-hjh2f4nPMWZ73ymk7roc5iQTkKgETGfQeRpO4I
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Post by Duty281 on Wed 18 Sep 2019, 8:53 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:It seems clear to me what BJ's game is. Fanny around and make soundbites that a deal is close and talks going well (all BS) to the British media and so peeing off the EU and so causing them to block an extension to Article 50 as they see the Tories are not serious about getting a deal. Westminster's bill will be powerless to do anything about it and voila ....No Deal Brexit.
...but the E27 just voted to extend A50 if requested, didn't they? Quite clever I think - Johnson would get it if he asked, but he's promised we will be out (i.e. no more requests for extension) by Oct 31st. He's getting increasingly tangled up in webs of other people's making and I think he's too dumb to work it all out.

The European Parliament voted to allow extension today, yes, but this is non-binding and has little effect on what the actual leaders of the EU27 will support.

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Post by Pr4wn on Thu 19 Sep 2019, 5:41 am

Duty281 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:It seems clear to me what BJ's game is. Fanny around and make soundbites that a deal is close and talks going well (all BS) to the British media and so peeing off the EU and so causing them to block an extension to Article 50 as they see the Tories are not serious about getting a deal. Westminster's bill will be powerless to do anything about it and voila ....No Deal Brexit.
...but the E27 just voted to extend A50 if requested, didn't they? Quite clever I think - Johnson would get it if he asked, but he's promised we will be out (i.e. no more requests for extension) by Oct 31st. He's getting increasingly tangled up in webs of other people's making and I think he's too dumb to work it all out.

The European Parliament voted to allow extension today, yes, but this is non-binding and has little effect on what the actual leaders of the EU27 will support.

Non-binding like the referendum?

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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 19 Sep 2019, 10:05 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:It seems clear to me what BJ's game is. Fanny around and make soundbites that a deal is close and talks going well (all BS) to the British media and so peeing off the EU and so causing them to block an extension to Article 50 as they see the Tories are not serious about getting a deal. Westminster's bill will be powerless to do anything about it and voila ....No Deal Brexit.
...but the E27 just voted to extend A50 if requested, didn't they? Quite clever I think - Johnson would get it if he asked, but he's promised we will be out (i.e. no more requests for extension) by Oct 31st. He's getting increasingly tangled up in webs of other people's making and I think he's too dumb to work it all out.

No I don't think any extension has been agreed yet. All there has been is talk that the E27 would be mad to not extend. That is as I understand it currently though I may have missed the confirmation.
I wasn't saying an extension has been agreed yet. There was a vote yesterday, or the day before, that was carried by a large margin and agreeing an extension would be granted if asked for:

https://www.euronews.com/2019/09/18/watch-live-juncker-and-barnier-address-eu-parliament-on-brexit-as-meps-vote-on-article-50
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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 19 Sep 2019, 10:06 am

Duty281 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:It seems clear to me what BJ's game is. Fanny around and make soundbites that a deal is close and talks going well (all BS) to the British media and so peeing off the EU and so causing them to block an extension to Article 50 as they see the Tories are not serious about getting a deal. Westminster's bill will be powerless to do anything about it and voila ....No Deal Brexit.
...but the E27 just voted to extend A50 if requested, didn't they? Quite clever I think - Johnson would get it if he asked, but he's promised we will be out (i.e. no more requests for extension) by Oct 31st. He's getting increasingly tangled up in webs of other people's making and I think he's too dumb to work it all out.

The European Parliament voted to allow extension today, yes, but this is non-binding and has little effect on what the actual leaders of the EU27 will support.
Of course, but so what? They've said they'd agree if asked. Your move Boris...
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 19 Sep 2019, 11:00 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:It seems clear to me what BJ's game is. Fanny around and make soundbites that a deal is close and talks going well (all BS) to the British media and so peeing off the EU and so causing them to block an extension to Article 50 as they see the Tories are not serious about getting a deal. Westminster's bill will be powerless to do anything about it and voila ....No Deal Brexit.
...but the E27 just voted to extend A50 if requested, didn't they? Quite clever I think - Johnson would get it if he asked, but he's promised we will be out (i.e. no more requests for extension) by Oct 31st. He's getting increasingly tangled up in webs of other people's making and I think he's too dumb to work it all out.

The European Parliament voted to allow extension today, yes, but this is non-binding and has little effect on what the actual leaders of the EU27 will support.
Of course, but so what? They've said they'd agree if asked. Your move Boris...

The thing is though he does not need to make a move. He can just carry on fannying about saying a deal is near blah blah blah and he has a plan blah blah blah but in all honesty he does nothing and allows the EU to get to a point that they say he is messing them about and just needs one country to say they do not agree to an extension and his mission is accomplished.
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Post by Soul Requiem on Thu 19 Sep 2019, 11:03 am

There's only really two countries who could possibly do that (Germany and France) and neither of them ever will, this isn't some playground disagreement.

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Post by Afro on Thu 19 Sep 2019, 11:33 am

Ultimately the EU do not want us to leave as its not in their best interest.

The longer it drags on, the stronger the argument that the referendum result is out dated and that a new vote is needed to establish the opinion of the electorate now, and the more chance of it being reversed.

So they will always lean towards granting extensions
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 19 Sep 2019, 2:16 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:There's only really two countries who could possibly do that (Germany and France) and neither of them ever will, this isn't some playground disagreement.

I'd agree it is unlikely but it's BJ's only hope of fulfilling his dream of a No Deal Brexit.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 19 Sep 2019, 2:20 pm

I still think Johnson's screwed with his Oct 31st commitment. The EU would rather we stayed, but it'll hurt us more. So they say they'll grant an extension if one is asked for, which would enable the deal that Johnson says he wants, but would make him go back on his Oct 31st promise. He's screwed.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 19 Sep 2019, 2:40 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:I still think Johnson's screwed with his Oct 31st commitment. The EU would rather we stayed, but it'll hurt us more. So they say they'll grant an extension if one is asked for, which would enable the deal that Johnson says he wants, but would make him go back on his Oct 31st promise. He's screwed.

One thing that the new bill does is give BJ an excuse when no deal is reached. He can point to that bill and say his hands were tied in negotiations. Even though, in all honesty, his heart and soul is not in negotiations anyway.
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Post by Soul Requiem on Thu 19 Sep 2019, 2:55 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:I still think Johnson's screwed with his Oct 31st commitment. The EU would rather we stayed, but it'll hurt us more. So they say they'll grant an extension if one is asked for, which would enable the deal that Johnson says he wants, but would make him go back on his Oct 31st promise. He's screwed.

It's overplayed the effect it will have on him I'd say, Farage isn't stupid and knows his only of actually getting any sort of Brexit is with Johnson in power so whether it's deal or no deal he'll ultimately back him and make is as easy as possible in a general election.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 19 Sep 2019, 4:09 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:I still think Johnson's screwed with his Oct 31st commitment. The EU would rather we stayed, but it'll hurt us more. So they say they'll grant an extension if one is asked for, which would enable the deal that Johnson says he wants, but would make him go back on his Oct 31st promise. He's screwed.

One thing that the new bill does is give BJ an excuse when no deal is reached. He can point to that bill and say his hands were tied in negotiations. Even though, in all honesty, his heart and soul is not in negotiations anyway.
Soul Requiem wrote:It's overplayed the effect it will have on him I'd say, Farage isn't stupid and knows his only of actually getting any sort of Brexit is with Johnson in power so whether it's deal or no deal he'll ultimately back him and make is as easy as possible in a general election.
Yeah, maybe. Fair comment. No easy solutions to this mess and it's not Johnson et al who'll bear the brunt of wherever we end up.
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Post by lostinwales on Thu 19 Sep 2019, 5:50 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:I still think Johnson's screwed with his Oct 31st commitment. The EU would rather we stayed, but it'll hurt us more. So they say they'll grant an extension if one is asked for, which would enable the deal that Johnson says he wants, but would make him go back on his Oct 31st promise. He's screwed.

It's overplayed the effect it will have on him I'd say, Farage isn't stupid and knows his only of actually getting any sort of Brexit is with Johnson in power so whether it's deal or no deal he'll ultimately back him and make is as easy as possible in a general election.

I think Farage's influence is often overstated, and is what it is at all because of the out of proportion media attention he gets

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Post by alfie on Thu 19 Sep 2019, 8:56 pm

Afro wrote:Ultimately the EU do not want us to leave as its not in their best interest.

The longer it drags on, the stronger the argument that the referendum result is out dated and that a new vote is needed to establish the opinion of the electorate now, and the more chance of it being reversed.

So they will always lean towards granting extensions

I think that is right. Even Boris and his mates are starting to see this too and are now edging towards accepting a deal that might even incorporate some form of "backstop" ( Shocked ) albeit under another title , rather than risk losing the whole game.
Whether they can get anything that has any chance of passing the commons is another question...

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Post by Soul Requiem on Thu 19 Sep 2019, 10:58 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:I still think Johnson's screwed with his Oct 31st commitment. The EU would rather we stayed, but it'll hurt us more. So they say they'll grant an extension if one is asked for, which would enable the deal that Johnson says he wants, but would make him go back on his Oct 31st promise. He's screwed.

It's overplayed the effect it will have on him I'd say, Farage isn't stupid and knows his only of actually getting any sort of Brexit is with Johnson in power so whether it's deal or no deal he'll ultimately back him and make is as easy as possible in a general election.

I think Farage's influence is often overstated, and is what it is at all because of the out of proportion media attention he gets

The referendum result suggests otherwise.

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Post by Pr4wn on Fri 20 Sep 2019, 4:04 am

The referendum was years ago. I believe LIW is talking about his influence right now.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Fri 20 Sep 2019, 5:42 am

I don't think Boris is playing on a field where promises really matter. It's not how modern politics of his sort seem to work; words mean little.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Fri 20 Sep 2019, 10:21 am

Soul Requiem wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:I still think Johnson's screwed with his Oct 31st commitment. The EU would rather we stayed, but it'll hurt us more. So they say they'll grant an extension if one is asked for, which would enable the deal that Johnson says he wants, but would make him go back on his Oct 31st promise. He's screwed.

It's overplayed the effect it will have on him I'd say, Farage isn't stupid and knows his only of actually getting any sort of Brexit is with Johnson in power so whether it's deal or no deal he'll ultimately back him and make is as easy as possible in a general election.

I think Farage's influence is often overstated, and is what it is at all because of the out of proportion media attention he gets

The referendum result suggests otherwise.

By that logic, Chris Grayling is a towering figure in British politics. At least Grayling was part of the official Leave campaign.

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 20 Sep 2019, 10:28 am

Could we call off Brexit until after the Rugby World Cup please? I'm getting my backstops mixed up with my wings.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Fri 20 Sep 2019, 10:30 am

First referee to shout 'leave means leave' gets a lifetime supply of wasabi.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Fri 20 Sep 2019, 10:43 am

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:I don't think Boris is playing on a field where promises really matter. It's not how modern politics of his sort seem to work; words mean little.
True that. Pity.

SecretFly wrote:Could we call off Brexit until after the Rugby World Cup please?  I'm getting my backstops mixed up with my wings.
Laugh Quite.
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Post by Soul Requiem on Fri 20 Sep 2019, 10:44 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:I still think Johnson's screwed with his Oct 31st commitment. The EU would rather we stayed, but it'll hurt us more. So they say they'll grant an extension if one is asked for, which would enable the deal that Johnson says he wants, but would make him go back on his Oct 31st promise. He's screwed.

It's overplayed the effect it will have on him I'd say, Farage isn't stupid and knows his only of actually getting any sort of Brexit is with Johnson in power so whether it's deal or no deal he'll ultimately back him and make is as easy as possible in a general election.

I think Farage's influence is often overstated, and is what it is at all because of the out of proportion media attention he gets

The referendum result suggests otherwise.

By that logic, Chris Grayling is a towering figure in British politics. At least Grayling was part of the official Leave campaign.

It amuses me that people are so blind to reality.

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Post by Pr4wn on Fri 20 Sep 2019, 10:54 am

It amuses me that you continue to post these pathetic "cryptic" comments, devoid of any explanation so as to give the impression that you're more knowledgeable and enlightened than others. The reality, of course, is that you're saying absolutely nothing, aside from a snide comment.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Fri 20 Sep 2019, 11:05 am

Pr4wn wrote:It amuses me that you continue to post these pathetic "cryptic" comments, devoid of any explanation so as to give the impression that you're more knowledgeable and enlightened than others. The reality, of course, is that you're saying absolutely nothing, aside from a snide comment.

You blow my mind with your insight yet again. It's hardly a cryptic comment, Farage whether you like him or not played a huge part in the referendum result, you'll dismiss that as being years ago purely because you dislike him, a lack of balance does you no favours.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Fri 20 Sep 2019, 11:12 am

He led the unofficial Leave campaign, and was on TV a lot, but I'll bet that a good chunk of Leave voters voted Leave despite him, not because of him.

Additionally, it's not 2016 any more.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Fri 20 Sep 2019, 11:13 am

No Farage led UKIP no referendum.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Fri 20 Sep 2019, 11:13 am

No Cameron hubris, no referendum.

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Post by Afro on Fri 20 Sep 2019, 11:16 am

Soul Requiem wrote:No Farage led UKIP no referendum.

Sadly this is true. It was the pressure of losing voters to UKIP and Farage that prompted Cameron to promise the referendum in the first place
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Post by navyblueshorts on Fri 20 Sep 2019, 5:00 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:No Cameron hubris, no referendum.
Indeed, but still he acknowledges no fault in causing the sh!tstorm we're now in the midst of. Winker.
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Post by Samo on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 11:04 am

Thomas Cook taking this “project fear” thing a bit far.

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Post by Duty281 on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 9:24 am

The National Crime Agency has found "no evidence" of criminal offences after allegations against Leave.EU and its founder Arron Banks.
The agency launched an investigation into the pro-Brexit campaign group after it was fined £70,000 by the Electoral Commission in May last year.
But the NCA said it would not take any further action against Leave.EU, its chief executive Liz Bilney or Mr Banks.
Tweeting after the ruling, Mr Banks said: "Victory is sweet."


Exactly why we adhere to 'innocent until proven guilty' in this country - I remember some on here wanting Banks banged up and the key thrown away (metaphorically speaking) when the investigations were first announced!

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