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Post by Soul Requiem on Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:49 am

First topic message reminder :

I don't understand why Buttler isn't hogging the strike here.

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Post by king_carlos on Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:30 am

It's a disappointing selection for sure. Possibly the worst England batting line-up I've seen since the Nineties. Even the weaker early Noughties line-ups had the likes of Thorpe, Trescothick, Vaughan and Stewart. This batting line-up would beg for a player like Mark Butcher in the top 3.

1.Burns
2.Sibley
3.Malan
4.Root
5.Stokes
6.Pope
7.Foakes (wk)

I hope that Bairstow and Buttler are rested and dropped respectively for the New Zealand tests.

Time to give Pope a prolonged run and select an actual opener.

I'd be very happy for Sam Northeast to tour as well.

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Post by JDizzle on Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:31 am

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:What position in any team am I allowed to pick Vince in? He’s like a girlfriend who dumps you but brings you back for the lonely boring months. So wrong, but looks so good

I’d happily watch James Vince bat alone in a darkened room. Glorious to watch.

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Post by king_carlos on Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:40 am

JDizzle wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:What position in any team am I allowed to pick Vince in? He’s like a girlfriend who dumps you but brings you back for the lonely boring months. So wrong, but looks so good

I’d happily watch James Vince bat alone in a darkened room. Glorious to watch.
I just wish fielding restrictions didn't allow slips for the first 20 overs that Vince spends at the crease!

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Post by Duty281 on Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:47 am

Here's a comparison of two different England teams. One will take the field tomorrow, the other is the side that played in the 4th and final test of the '99 home series v NZ (a defeat, naturally) that confirmed England's place at the bottom of the test table.

1) Burns/Atherton
2) Denly/Maddy
3) Root/Hussain
4) Stokes/Thorpe
5) Bairstow/Stewart
6) Buttler/Ramprakash
7) Woakes/Irani
8) Curran/Caddick
9) Archer/Mullally
10) Leach/Tufnell
11) Broad/Giddins

A fair number of that '99 side would get into this current team, I reckon, which shows how far England are sinking.

A best XI from those 22 players could look like: Burns, Atherton, Hussain (c), Root, Thorpe, Stewart (wk), Stokes, Woakes, Archer, Broad, Tufnell.

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Post by king_carlos on Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:54 am

Archer and Woakes are a way off doing enough to displace Caddick I'd argue. He played in some poor sides but still took 234 wickets at a decent average.

Sides from that era had many deficiencies but the strike pair of Gough and Caddick was pretty good!

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Post by Gooseberry on Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:09 am

Despite being the side that put us bottom is was by no means the worst in terms of talent put out by england.

Historical comparisons aside though we do have to be honest and say this is a very poor batting side, not just this match but the series and prior to it.
10 wickets lost in a session 4 times in 3 years. Out for under 100 3 times in six months, including by Ireland...IRELAND. Theres more going on than one or two margin call selections, england are desperately short if batting g talent but also leadership and a consistent strong mindset. It's such a contrast to the ODI side.
Bairstow and Mo are two examples of players capable of being OK if not good test batsmen who have been reduced to shadows of their potential during the Bayliss Root era.
Since Root the best batsman we've managed to debut is stokes who's averaging about 35 and picked initially as a bowler allrounder.
It's really pretty dire and not new. The lack of concrete action to address the development of test batsmen has been shocking, and that sits at the Sir Struass / King Giles of Spain level.

They've tried players with very good first class records, they've tried the form first class players, they've tried gritty county pros, theyve tried the young bright sparks, theyve tried the world cup winning best ever ODI batsmen. None of them are making it stick ( credit to Burns who is doing well in context but far from a proven test force).
When Trott had his wobbles it was just a number 3. Then it was a partner for Cook. Then it was an entire top 3. Then it was the sixth batting spot. Now it's an entire top 7 thats questionable on the past 6 months batting form...to the point where we can argue woakes coming in there makes it a stronger batting line up for this game.

I don't think you can call this the worst England test team in modern times, but theres a strong case it's been the weakest top 6 through the ashes series.
(Pessimistic hats on today)

England by an innings and pennies.

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Post by sirfredperry on Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:22 am

This, IMHO, is by no means the weakest side England have put out but it is arguably one of the weakest BATTING line-ups England have had.

If you count Burns, who has done well, as being relatively inexperienced as a Test player, England have only been featuring  ONE established specialist batsman - Root.

The rest have been either inexperienced, wicketkeepers, all-rounders or bowlers.

It's little wonder that with such a line-up England have not been able to win the Ashes.

But thanks to the inadequacies of the Australian batting*, one stupendous performance by an English player and some penetrative bowling from Broad and Archer, the Ashes were in doubt until the last day of the 4th Test.

*With one exception, of course.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:49 am

XI makes a lot of sense from what they have in the squad - frankly ludicrous Overton played over Curran in the first place, and if Stokes can’t bowl he 100% should be in as a specialist bat over Roy.

I’ll continue to be in the Jos Buttler corner as a long term option for England in the test side - think people are jettisoning him too quickly, considering the 12 months he had prior to this series was very solid, probably the only england batsman with any credit. Showed signs of form last test, hopefully he can continue and build on that here and become a fixture in the side over the winter
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Post by VTR on Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:28 am

That 99 series did lead to a clearout and maybe we will see similar. The next Test in SA, England brought in Vaughan, Adams, Flintoff, Hamilton and Silverwood I think. Pretty sure they were 2-4 in that Test so it didn't begin very well, but was the start of the build towards the excellent 2004/5 team with the likes of Hoggard, Harmison and Trescothick debuting over the next couple of years.

There was some real junk like the aforementioned Hamilton, Ward, Afzaal etc discarded along the way.

In summary, I think we'll see some major changes but it will take time to build a strong side.

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Post by KP_fan on Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:01 pm

For the first time in this series bet365 is rating Aus as a favorite before the toss
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Post by Duty281 on Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:34 pm

Australia win the toss and field first. I'm surprised.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:35 pm

Aussies win the toss and bowl first...interesting decision that - bit overcast and some grass on the wicket, but with the weather set fair you'd think spin will come into it later in the game...
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Post by eirebilly on Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:37 pm

Joe Root did not look easy when saying Chris Woakes will start...

I am amazed the Aussies still persevere with Warner to be honest. He is in woeful form and Broad has it all over him.
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Post by Duty281 on Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:42 pm

I think this will be the first (and only) test of the Ashes this year that won't be disturbed by rain. The forecast is unusually calm and decent for mid-September.

Who thinks Australia will be batting by 18:00 tonight? Yep, me too!

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Post by Pal Joey on Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:44 pm

Duty281 wrote:Australia win the toss and field first. I'm surprised.

A bit baffling. Did someone spray paint a tinge of green on there? Wink
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Post by eirebilly on Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:45 pm

I don't know Duty, no the pressure is pretty much off with the series lost, England might put in a decent batting performance.
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Post by Pal Joey on Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:47 pm

eirebilly wrote:I don't know Duty, no the pressure is pretty much off with the series lost, England might put in a decent batting performance.

There's still points for the WTC available though. Something to play for at least.
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Post by eirebilly on Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:49 pm

Pal Joey wrote:
eirebilly wrote:I don't know Duty, no the pressure is pretty much off with the series lost, England might put in a decent batting performance.

There's still points for the WTC available though. Something to play for at least.

True, there is always something to play for but I think that England might go well this test as the pressure of the Ashes is off.
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:56 pm

I mean technically the series isn't lost, the Ashes are, but the series can still be drawn - and as Nasser pointed out, a summer with a World Cup win and a 2-2 series against Australia is hardly a disaster...so plenty to play for I'd say
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Post by guildfordbat on Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:00 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Aussies win the toss and bowl first...interesting decision that - bit overcast and some grass on the wicket, but with the weather set fair you'd think spin will come into it later in the game...

Hi Olly - rather like you and certainly like Duty, I'm surprised by Paine's decision. Particularly as the weather is set to improve further today. Back your batsmen and then make hay as the sun comes out would be my typical and expected approach. At the ground, Atherton and Warne also voiced their surprise on Sky to Gower who seemed of the same view (Gower didn't waste his time or ours asking Botham who just sat there!).

Paine clearly trusting his bowlers and presumably reckoning that England's inability with the bat will continue.

Surprised as well that Starc reverts to drinks duty - personally disappointed too,I had hoped to see him bowl.


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Post by Pal Joey on Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:10 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:I mean technically the series isn't lost, the Ashes are, but the series can still be drawn - and as Nasser pointed out, a summer with a World Cup win and a 2-2 series against Australia is hardly a disaster...so plenty to play for I'd say

So Nass has already predicted the win? Just noticed there's no "if" in there.
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:13 pm

Pal Joey wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:I mean technically the series isn't lost, the Ashes are, but the series can still be drawn - and as Nasser pointed out, a summer with a World Cup win and a 2-2 series against Australia is hardly a disaster...so plenty to play for I'd say

So Nass has already predicted the win? Just noticed there's no "if" in there.

No that's me PJ! Very Happy
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:17 pm

Erasmus - generally if it's hitting the thigh guard, it's going over pal...
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Post by Duty281 on Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:18 pm

That was a pretty lousy decision.

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Post by compelling and rich on Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:19 pm

bad start by the umpires, going to be one of those games again

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Post by eirebilly on Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:30 pm

20-0, getting nervous now as a wicket must surely be coming...
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Post by Duty281 on Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:41 pm

Very uncomfortable innings from Denly and no surprise to see him out cheaply. That'll calm Paine down who must have been starting to get a little concerned!

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Post by compelling and rich on Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:42 pm

smith getting nowhere near that and still manages to catch it. when its your summer Crying or Very sad

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Post by eirebilly on Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:51 pm

Paine is so much better at rotating his bowlers than Root.
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Post by VTR on Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:54 pm

It seems that every time I check the score this summer, we've just lost a wicket. I was thinking I may be cursing them, but I've finally accepted they're just not very good!

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Post by Gooseberry on Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:57 pm

Please no more Denly after this series. Burns at least is continuing to look like a test player, albeit on in the context of everyone around him being worse. 

Bowling first is always a big ask. I can understand him wanting to pressure Englands batsmen early and keep the momentum but it does seem odd, and may have handed England the confidence they need if this pair can make a decent stand to go on to make a reasonable total.

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Post by eirebilly on Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:00 pm

Agree that Denly is not the answer going forward for England but in fairness, I think he has done reasonably well in comparison to the other English batsmen.
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Post by LondonTiger on Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:12 pm

Denly has not been great, yet when we draw up a composite team he may well be in it Very Happy

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Post by Soul Requiem on Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:16 pm

Glen Mcgrath talks a lot of nonsense, saying Australia have been the far better and dismissing the win at Headingly as a one man effort but ignoring that without Steve Smith it could realistically be 4-0 to a fairly awful England team

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Post by eirebilly on Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:19 pm

I stopped listening to what Glen McGrath says a long time ago. Wonderful bowler but a god awful pundit.
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:20 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:Glen Mcgrath talks a lot of nonsense, saying Australia have been the far better and dismissing the win at Headingly as a one man effort but ignoring that without Steve Smith it could realistically be 4-0 to a fairly awful England team

Might be in the minority, but whenever I've listened to TMS this summer the coverage in general has been awful. Sky's comms/analysts are streets ahead
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Post by guildfordbat on Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:20 pm

eirebilly wrote:Agree that Denly is not the answer going forward for England but in fairness, I think he has done reasonably well in comparison to the other English batsmen.

Yeah, I'm pretty much with you there, Billy, and have some sympathy for Denly but only to a point.

In his eleven test innings this summer (including the two against Ireland), he's certainly tried to apply himself and reached double figures in ten of those knocks - that's darned impressive at test level. However, he's only reached 50 twice and never exceeded 53. Even if no one else can be thought of who would have done much or any better, that lets him down badly and is strong evidence he's not the answer.

Unless he gets serious runs second dig here, I strongly suspect it'll be thank you and good night.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:26 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:Glen Mcgrath talks a lot of nonsense, saying Australia have been the far better and dismissing the win at Headingly as a one man effort but ignoring that without Steve Smith it could realistically be 4-0 to a fairly awful England team

Might be in the minority, but whenever I've listened to TMS this summer the coverage in general has been awful. Sky's comms/analysts are streets ahead

I'm generally the opposite, aside from Mcgrath the standard is pretty good whereas Sky is awful with analysts trying to explain batting technicalities that they know nothing about (Atherton & Hussain).

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Post by eirebilly on Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:36 pm

I really like Burns, he does seem to have a very good test opener temperament about him. That 2 runs at the end of Cummins over showed great awareness as well.
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Post by eirebilly on Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:40 pm

Root dropped by Siddle, he really should have caught that. Awful shot and what a let off for Root.
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Post by eirebilly on Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:50 pm

Root dropped again... Surely he must get a century today?
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Post by compelling and rich on Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:51 pm

right root, make the most of this luck!

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Post by Duty281 on Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:51 pm

Root's lucky day. Not only did Australia wrongly choose to bowl first, but now he's been dropped twice!

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:53 pm

I refuse to believe Tim Paine is the best keeper/bat in Australia
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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:55 pm

Paine selflessly saves Warner from a headshot with a wonderful reaction parry

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Post by Duty281 on Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:58 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:I refuse to believe Tim Paine is the best keeper/bat in Australia

I could name you 15 better...

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:11 am

Duty281 wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:I refuse to believe Tim Paine is the best keeper/bat in Australia

I could name you 15 better...

Go!

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Post by Just John on Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:21 am

Alex Carey

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Post by Soul Requiem on Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:35 am

Paine is a better keeper than Carey whilst they're both fairly underwhelming batsmen.

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Post by JDizzle on Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:36 am

Worth noting Carey dropped Moeen in single figures in the T20 QF last week - an absolute dolly. Came back to bite him slightly.

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