Japan 2019 - Pool A Ireland Japan Russia Samoa Scotland

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 09 Sep 2019, 12:10 pm

First topic message reminder :

TeamPlayedWonDrawnLostTriesPFPA+/-BPPoints
Japan330098741+46214
Ireland3201117422+52311
Scotland320113982771210
Samoa310275381-2815
Russia3003119125-10600


Japan 30-10 Russia              
Ireland 27-3 Scotland  
Russia 9-34 Samoa                        
Japan 19-12 Ireland                          
Scotland 34-0 Samoa
Ireland 35-0 Russia
Japan 38-19 Samoa
Scotland 61-0 Russia
 

                                       
                     
12 October 2019         Ireland v Samoa                         Fukuoka Hakatanomori Stadium, Fukuoka
13 October 2019         Japan v Scotland                         International Stadium Yokohama, Yokohama


Two games left. If Ireland get a TBP win on Saturday they qualify for the quarter finals irrespective of the result on Sunday. Any other result and they need to wait and see what happens between Japan and Scotland.
Any win for Japan and they will top the group (in fact a draw or losing with two bonus points will guarantee the same)
Most interesting scenario is if Ireland win without a bonus point - opening up a chance for Scotland to top the group if all 3 teams end up on 15pts and Scotland are able to keep their points difference ahead of Ireland.


Last edited by LondonTiger on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 10:29 am; edited 5 times in total

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Post by tigertattie on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 11:55 am

Very lucky not to get a red card. Can’t help but feel that because the Russian player didn’t make a mean of it (a la Bernie) that the Samoan was given the benefit of the doubt.

Now that one just now is a red even though he’s hurt himself
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Post by miaow on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 11:55 am

This has to be red.

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Post by Scottrf on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 11:56 am

LondonTiger wrote:Slightly harsh Yello Card against Samoa imo - but completely within the guidance. Contact made with the dead by the shoulder, as arms in front not red, but no mitigation for the ball carrier dropping and tackler being bent at the waist to 90 degrees.
I think lenient actually. If you're going in with that force you need to be hitting the right place, and the dip was minor. The tackle area is supposed to be lower so was high even with the dip.

Honesly when they first brought in the emphasis on player safety a couple of years ago that would have been a red no question. They've really lightened the punishments since.

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Post by miaow on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 11:56 am

Shocking call tbh. If it's in line with the laws, the laws need to change.

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Post by ebop on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 11:57 am

Poite is actually making some sensible calls
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Post by Duty281 on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 11:57 am

Samoa incredibly lucky not to have two red cards. Tackling like a bunch of out of control idiots.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 11:59 am

Second YC for dangerous tackle against Samoa.

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Post by Scottrf on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 12:00 pm

The fact that a slight dip can mitigate flying in out of control with your shoulder and making direct contact with the head is an absolute joke.

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Post by Brendan on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 12:00 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Looking at Russia today, they will get absolutely hammered by Ireland. Having kept teh same team for Samoa - they look shattered already.

It seems unfair that Russia get the two games they target in the space of 4 days with the rest of th WC a formality. I am sure Russia would have rather Scotland or Ireland second.

The quicker we go to groups of 6 the better. If the issues in Europe hadn't of happened Russia wouldn't even be here so adding 4 teams won't effect the standard to much.
If you did 6 groups instead of 4 you just have a round 16 so only the bottom 4 that are currently there get one less game. 6 groups also allows 6 days between rounds for each group.

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Post by ebop on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 12:00 pm

Players dipping caught them out
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Post by tigertattie on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 12:00 pm

ebop wrote:Poite is actually making some sensible calls

In the spirit of the game and to keep the match a competition he is doing the right thing.

To the letter of the law though they are close to the red card area.

The issue now is that the stall has been laid out. What happens when someone like Farrell does a tackle like that and he is given red? The uproar goes out about the consistency
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Post by Scottrf on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 12:01 pm

ebop wrote:Players dipping caught them out

But they were aiming too high anyway. If you aim for the shoulders (which is a high tackle) you're taking that risk. They were just out of control tackles.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 12:03 pm

Brendan wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Looking at Russia today, they will get absolutely hammered by Ireland. Having kept teh same team for Samoa - they look shattered already.

It seems unfair that Russia get the two games they target in the space of 4 days with the rest of th WC a formality.  I am sure Russia would have rather Scotland or Ireland second.

The quicker we go to groups of 6 the better.  If the issues in Europe hadn't of happened Russia wouldn't even be here so adding 4 teams won't effect the standard to much.
If you did 6 groups instead of 4 you just have a round 16 so only the bottom 4 that are currently there get one less game.  6 groups also allows 6 days between rounds for each group.

That would result in far too many matches, the semi finalists would be playing 9 times in seven weeks.

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Post by Brendan on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 12:03 pm

Duty281 wrote:Samoa incredibly lucky not to have two red cards. Tackling like a bunch of out of control idiots.

Is it a case of them having to wait for the first game so over excited.
Add in that they have not been great against T2 in Europe they don't want to finish last in the group.

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Post by Brendan on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 12:06 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
Brendan wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Looking at Russia today, they will get absolutely hammered by Ireland. Having kept teh same team for Samoa - they look shattered already.

It seems unfair that Russia get the two games they target in the space of 4 days with the rest of th WC a formality.  I am sure Russia would have rather Scotland or Ireland second.

The quicker we go to groups of 6 the better.  If the issues in Europe hadn't of happened Russia wouldn't even be here so adding 4 teams won't effect the standard to much.
If you did 6 groups instead of 4 you just have a round 16 so only the bottom 4 that are currently there get one less game.  6 groups also allows 6 days between rounds for each group.

That would result in far too many matches, the semi finalists would be playing 9 times in seven weeks.

Currently they play 4 group games and three knockouts
If 4 in a group they would play 3 group and 4 knockouts.
Having teams play 2 games in 4 days and then another 6 days later isn't great at all for the player safety. How many Russians are more likely to pick up injuries because they haven't fully recovered.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 12:07 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
Brendan wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Looking at Russia today, they will get absolutely hammered by Ireland. Having kept teh same team for Samoa - they look shattered already.

It seems unfair that Russia get the two games they target in the space of 4 days with the rest of th WC a formality.  I am sure Russia would have rather Scotland or Ireland second.

The quicker we go to groups of 6 the better.  If the issues in Europe hadn't of happened Russia wouldn't even be here so adding 4 teams won't effect the standard to much.
If you did 6 groups instead of 4 you just have a round 16 so only the bottom 4 that are currently there get one less game.  6 groups also allows 6 days between rounds for each group.

That would result in far too many matches, the semi finalists would be playing 9 times in seven weeks.

I think he means 6 groups of 4, though it did read as groups with 6 teams per group? I never like having the number of groups not being divisible by 4 - as then you either have a best runner up/3rd place scenario or like 1999 a playoff round.

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Post by bsando on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 12:08 pm

This match is insane! Fighting going on while someone could have potentially scored a try??

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Post by Pal Joey on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 12:12 pm

Are you calmed down now? lol

Lots of brainless anger from the Samoans. They're lucky the bears can't take advantage. Or how you say... not go downtown yet.
If they don't settle down in the 2nd half then Russia might still be right for an upset.
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Post by carpet baboon on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 12:19 pm

So.
I'm a little shocked that neither was a red.
As, let's be honest, they were both reds. I don't think anyone would have been shocked to see them both as red.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 12:27 pm

Brendan wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
Brendan wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Looking at Russia today, they will get absolutely hammered by Ireland. Having kept teh same team for Samoa - they look shattered already.

It seems unfair that Russia get the two games they target in the space of 4 days with the rest of th WC a formality.  I am sure Russia would have rather Scotland or Ireland second.

The quicker we go to groups of 6 the better.  If the issues in Europe hadn't of happened Russia wouldn't even be here so adding 4 teams won't effect the standard to much.
If you did 6 groups instead of 4 you just have a round 16 so only the bottom 4 that are currently there get one less game.  6 groups also allows 6 days between rounds for each group.

That would result in far too many matches, the semi finalists would be playing 9 times in seven weeks.

Currently they play 4 group games and three knockouts
If 4 in a group they would play 3 group and 4 knockouts.
Having teams play 2 games in 4 days and then another 6 days later isn't great at all for the player safety.  How many Russians are more likely to pick up injuries because they haven't fully recovered.

Sorry misread that, you'd end up with a right old mess of deciding which teams went through to the knockouts. Euro 2016 was a cluster**** for that.

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Post by miaow on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 12:28 pm

Scottrf wrote:The fact that a slight dip can mitigate flying in out of control with your shoulder and making direct contact with the head is an absolute joke.

Totally agree. This is where hours of sitting in a room, thrashing out the protocols, comes to nothing. Dipping in to the tackle was designed to mitigate players who, at the last minute, try to go low, to basically make themselves harder to tackle. Like Ken Owens, cannonball tackling etc. If defender then smashes their head, it's a recognition the carrier played a part in the contact by changing their body height at the last minute.

It's not meant to mitigate the fact that basaically no-one runs around a rugby field without a slight bend in the knees. That's not dipping. Empathy with the game they call it. Basic unerstanding would be another way of summing it up.

Bad, bad decision making. There's no issue with the laws, it's how it's refereed. Poite is a shocking ref at times. The second one is about as blatant a red card for a reckless high tackle with force as we'll see this world cup. Unbelievable.

6-5 still, 44 mins gone.

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Post by miaow on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 12:31 pm

Samoa try. 45 mins. Russian defender yellow carded for seat belt tackle in act of scoring i.e. Samoan leaning down. To compare the 3 incidents and arive at the same decision for all of them is a joke. Con missed. 6-10 Samoa lead.

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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 12:35 pm

Samoa should have had two red cards, it's farcical. Why do we always give the Island nations a free ride ? Just because they are physical, we should not just brush it off as being their way. steam

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Post by Scottrf on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 12:42 pm

Not kicking possession away is so underrated.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 12:39 pm

Lee-Lo & Matu'u cited, Fidow given a retrospective YC.

https://www.world.rugby/news/482506

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Post by TightHEAD on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 12:51 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Lee-Lo & Matu'u cited, Fidow given a retrospective YC.

https://www.world.rugby/news/482506

Good, shoulder to the head whether its intentional or a mistake is still dangerous. Lets make it simple for the Refs at every level of the game.

HEAD is RED.
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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 1:02 pm

You know I will disagree with that last line as we have had this argument before. If the ball carrier has their head at knee level for instance how could you ever make a head on tackle? Or are you saying you have to let them get past you then jump on their back?

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Post by TightHEAD on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 1:03 pm

Well I'm not surprised! Rolling Eyes

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 1:12 pm

So 2 red cards for the Tongans on the tuilagi first try. Seems a bit excessive.

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Post by TightHEAD on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 1:13 pm

As is potential brain damage because others can not tackle properly!
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 1:16 pm

Well your suggestion ain't going to happen so I guess we can move on.pretty quickly.

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Post by TightHEAD on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 1:17 pm

HEAD is RED

or we can put up with Refs getting it wrong on the day? Whistle


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 1:17 pm

Not in rugby union.

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Post by TightHEAD on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 1:21 pm

Its the way the game is going. Only a matter of time.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 1:34 pm

Watch touch rugby then.

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Post by TightHEAD on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 1:36 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Watch touch rugby then.

You get some vicious slaps in that format of the game.
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Post by miaow on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 2:02 pm

Weird reading that Olly Kohn - Wales and Harlequins legend - is part of the disciplinary panel.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 2:35 pm

TightHEAD wrote:HEAD is RED

or we can put up with Refs getting it wrong on the day? Whistle

So if the ball carrier drops so his head is at knee height that is the tackers fault?

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 2:42 pm

TightHEAD wrote:As is potential brain damage because others can not tackle properly!

You do realise that the stats show:

1) The most dangerous tackle is head on head with both players equally likely to be injured. 
2) Next is the tackle round the hip and thigh with the tackler far more likely to be injured.

As someone who suffered 5 fractured vertebrae from a high tackle, I am not an apologist for such things. However not every contact with the head is reckless by the tackler. 

If you really want to eliminate as much of the risk of concussion as possible the sport would have to go non-contact.

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Post by Old Man on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 4:11 pm

There should be equal measures for ball carriers putting themselves in danger. Whether it is sliding down during a tackle, ducking, or leading with the noggin

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Post by miaow on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 4:59 pm

According to Jaco Peyper, there are, remember? Farrell's hit against Australia?

'Your ball carrier dropped the shoulder as well'.

Oh...

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Post by Old Man on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 5:12 pm

True, Farrell on Andre Esterhuizen, but that was someone else who refereed.


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 5:21 pm

I was going to say snyman on kruis in the same match. But that was just assault!

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Post by Old Man on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 5:21 pm

You’ll have to remind me I don’t recall

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 5:43 pm

A certain red on a clear out. Wasnt seen by the officials at the time.

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Post by Old Man on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 5:46 pm

clip?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 5:50 pm

It'll be on the internet somewhere.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 6:04 pm

Not a clip but mentioned in this article. 

https://rugbylad.ie/former-professional-referee-say-owen-farrell-tackle/


Now I include the article because the picture looks a lot like the "tackle" made by Tonga's 7 on Billy V that was deemed fair. 


There has been too much inconsistency in this are over the last year. While the hit on Billy (and hence Snyman) were only penalty offences, this group is seeing some dodgy decisions being upgraded to Red Cards. Something is going seriously wrong in the Ref/TMO interactions. 

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Post by SecretFly on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 7:03 pm

Is there any rugby happening in between the endless boring ref chat?

It's becoming an epidemic and is killing all contests/championships stone dead.  

Maybe just have a dedicated World Cup Ref watch thread for dedicated Ref observers.  This is Pool A.  We got games to think about and talk about.

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Post by miaow on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 7:06 pm

Old Man wrote:True, Farrell on Andre Esterhuizen, but that was someone else who refereed.


No, no. Farrell did it twice last autumn. Wait to the very end of the video and listen to what Peyper says...




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