Japan 2019 - Pool C - Argentina England France Tonga USA

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 09 Sep 2019, 2:27 pm

First topic message reminder :

TeamPlayedWonDrawnLostTriesPFPA+/-BPPoints
England220011801070210
Argentina2101649351426
France110002232124
USA10011745-3800
Tonga200221763-4600

France 23-21 Argentina                  
England 35-3 Tonga      
England 45-7 United States
Argentina 28-14 Tonga       
               


2 October 2019                   France v United States                 Fukuoka Hakatanomori Stadium, Fukuoka
5 October 2019                   England v Argentina                    Tokyo Stadium, Chōfu
6 October 2019                   France v Tonga                            Kumamoto Stadium, Kumamoto
9 October 2019                   Argentina v United States             Kumagaya Rugby Stadium, Kumagaya
12 October 2019                 England v France                         International Stadium Yokohama, Yokohama
13 October 2019                 United States v Tonga                  Hanazono Rugby Stadium, Higashiōsaka


Last edited by LondonTiger on Tue 01 Oct 2019, 9:33 am; edited 2 times in total

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Post by BigGee on Sat 21 Sep 2019, 10:03 am

Argentina probably deserved to win this game but gzve themselves to much to do

Cracking game though

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Post by maestegmafia on Sat 21 Sep 2019, 10:03 am

Haven’t heard this referee ask the players to use the ball once this match, where as Nigel was giving them a very short time in the first game to use it...!

Lucky narrow win by France.

England fans must be licking their lips at the prospect of playing either of these two.

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Post by RDW on Sat 21 Sep 2019, 10:04 am

Not the best quality of games but plenty drama.

Well done France!

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Post by Cyril on Sat 21 Sep 2019, 10:05 am

Well done France!

Argentina’s RWC is done already.

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Post by RDW on Sat 21 Sep 2019, 10:06 am

I'm sure the Argentinians will be asking why the French got so many final warnings!

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Post by BigGee on Sat 21 Sep 2019, 10:09 am

Yes, France deserved a YC. You just can't give 2 final warnings.
Owens or Barnes wojld havd carded them probably even before that

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Post by RiscaGame on Sat 21 Sep 2019, 10:15 am

I expected England to qualify pretty comfortably, but think they’ll get five points against both of those teams now.

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Post by maestegmafia on Sat 21 Sep 2019, 10:21 am

RiscaGame wrote:I expected England to qualify pretty comfortably, but think they’ll get five points against both of those teams now.

I agree I would be expecting a BP in the first half too. Tonga and the USA are Likely to beat one of these two on this form.

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Post by BigGee on Sat 21 Sep 2019, 10:34 am

You never know with France though, they were z different tesm in the first hlsf and would give everyone a game playing like that.

They won at the end of the day, that takes the pressure off them as qualification is now secured.

They could still play there way into the tournament.

Argentina not out of it with a BP, but are now going to have to beat England, a very tall order.

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 21 Sep 2019, 10:37 am

Classic, classic France. Never change.

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Post by maestegmafia on Sat 21 Sep 2019, 1:26 pm

BigGee wrote:You never know with France though, they were z different tesm in the first hlsf and would give everyone a game playing like that.

They won at the end of the day, that takes the pressure off them as qualification is now secured.

They could still play there way into the tournament.

Argentina not out of it with a BP, but are now going to have to beat England, a very tall order.

Like a number of teams when France are allowed to be dominant they are, when the opposition impose themselves successfully on France they quickly fall apart.

Beating them is about not giving them their head of steam. England did this perfectly this year in the 6N.

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Post by LondonTiger on Sat 21 Sep 2019, 2:54 pm

Thought France had no kicking game and looked pretty lost when pinned in their half. 

However as Argentina seemed to have no running game, they got away with it.

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Post by Big on Sun 22 Sep 2019, 6:27 am

Not sure how the win guarantees France get through. Its unlikely but I wouldn't rule out France lose to England, and England lose to Argentina and its all about points and tries etc. England may be favourites to beat both, but they were in 2015 as well.

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Post by westisbest on Sun 22 Sep 2019, 7:30 am

France will know they have to up their game big time when they play England. Would still fancy England to win, but you never know. If France turn up and have a great 80 and England are not on their game, France could get the win.

As with Argentina, they will have to up their game.

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Post by LondonTiger on Sun 22 Sep 2019, 4:22 pm

Just seen that Fofana has been replaced in the squad.

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Post by maestegmafia on Sun 22 Sep 2019, 4:30 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Just seen that Fofana has been replaced in the squad.

Sad news, great player.

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Post by maestegmafia on Sun 22 Sep 2019, 5:29 pm

Lyon centre Barassi, 21, is the third member of France's World Rugby under-20 championship-winning side of 2018 in the senior squad alongside Romain Ntamack and Demba Bamba

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Post by sensisball on Sun 22 Sep 2019, 6:16 pm

Massive blow for Fofana, not able to finish his international career after another world cup campaign. But equally a massive blow for the team. The back line definitely works better with the Clermont legend at 12. Barassi is a talented young player but with zero senior international experience.

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Post by Poorfour on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 6:49 am

Big wrote:Not sure how the win guarantees France get through. Its unlikely but I wouldn't rule out France lose to England, and England lose to Argentina and its all about points and tries etc. England may be favourites to beat both, but they were in 2015 as well.

This time England haven’t done stupid things like try to slim their pack down in the training camp or pick Sam Burgess to do a job and then take him off at 60 minutes when he’s been doing it well.

England have a very strong record against Argentina; on yesterday’s evidence I don’t think Argentina have enough to pose a real threat. France are always a banana skin - but if England have already qualified when they meet then losing to them would not make much difference because the draw is equally tough on both sides.
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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 2:21 pm

Poorfour wrote:
Big wrote:Not sure how the win guarantees France get through. Its unlikely but I wouldn't rule out France lose to England, and England lose to Argentina and its all about points and tries etc. England may be favourites to beat both, but they were in 2015 as well.

This time England haven’t done stupid things like try to slim their pack down in the training camp or pick Sam Burgess to do a job and then take him off at 60 minutes when he’s been doing it well.

England have a very strong record against Argentina; on yesterday’s evidence I don’t think Argentina have enough to pose a real threat. France are always a banana skin - but if England have already qualified when they meet then losing to them would not make much difference because the draw is equally tough on both sides.


Honestly if England cant beat a side that hasn't won a game in over a year then they don't deserve to be in the last 8 and never should have been contenders in the first place. The winless streak and world ranking of 11 maybe does them a disservice but Argentina are not a top side, its shouldn't have taken France beating them to realise that. 

It does though make France pretty likely to go through, and also showed they have bothered to turn up.  

The pressure and unfortunate injuries could still get to England but they absolutely only have themselves to blame if they don't progress too IMO.

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Post by miaow on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 2:27 pm

Argentina play good rugby at times but they've completely lost any winning instinct. NZ practically handed them the win earlier in the summer, and yet, repeatedly, they couldn't execute on the ABs line in the dying minutes to win it. That sums up where they are.

It feels a bit like a Glasgow-Scotland situation with Jaguares-Argentina now. So much emotional and mental energy has gone in to making them a competitive, successful team, who so very nearly won Super Rugby this year, that they haven't carried it through to the national team, where  once upon a team the Pumas were better than the sum of their parts. They feel like a team expecting a Super Rugby approach to work at test level.

They will throw everything at England but I don't think they know how to win anymore. There's a sense of a vacuum in the leadership team, and not sure the head coach has done a good job replacing his predecessor, where I think the continuity there helped them for years.

France are the real threat, and if Argentina sufficiently soften key English players' bodies/minds up the week before, and France cut down the errors, their offloading game will keep them in the game, and from there you never know.

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Post by BamBam on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 2:45 pm

I'm pretty confident we'll win the rest of our pool games, and I'm usually a pessimist!

I think the nerves are due to the schedule, if the USA game was either our 3rd/4th game, I think we'd all be feeling much happier due to being able to give the big players a rest before the knockouts start

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 7:33 am

Slade an injury worry apparently. Team announced soon, but the Times has this to say:

Jones was planning to make a late decision on the Exeter Chiefs centre, who came on at full back against Tonga after five weeks out with medial ligament damage but has also been training at fly half. England only have time for one full-on training session before they face the US and have been preparing two teams concurrently over the past ten days.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 7:35 am

Sounds as if it's a short term one for usa?

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Post by Rinsure on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 7:59 am

The Guardian reporting that Cokanasiga still has heavy strapping on his knee too....


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Post by Rinsure on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 8:34 am

England team:

Marler, LCD, Cole, Launch, Kruis, Curry, BV, Ludlam; Heinz, Ford (c), Cokanasiga, Francis, JJ, McConnochie, Daly

Finishers:
Singleton, Genge, Sinkler, Lawes, Wilson, Youngs, Faz, Watson

Seems to suggest the report of Cokanasiga someone posted above (ahem) is false and he's fit, but lends credence to the Slade injury being of note .

Not a bad side, should be more than strong enough.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 8:36 am

Marler starting ahead of Genge is a surprise, the rest pretty much makes sense.

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Post by Rinsure on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 8:38 am

I reckon that's 10 changes to the starting XV, so considerably more than half the side, regardless of rounding Wink


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Post by Rugby Fan on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 8:39 am

Is Ludlam really seen as a seven, or is that just to give him game time?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 8:42 am

Doesn't really matter the number on his back if hes playing with curry or underhill.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 8:43 am

Rugby Fan wrote:Is Ludlam really seen as a seven, or is that just to give him game time?

That is where he played all last season for Saints I believe.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 8:44 am

LondonTiger wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:Is Ludlam really seen as a seven, or is that just to give him game time?

That is where he played all last season for Saints I believe.

That's my understanding too, it seems to be his work at the breakdown that's got him into the squad.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 8:50 am

Then of course add in that they want to give Curry as much experience as possible at 6.

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Post by Rinsure on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 8:56 am

LondonTiger wrote:Then of course add in that they want to give Curry as much experience as possible at 6.

So yeah, it's obvious this is the plan, and he is seen as the main main at 6, which implies that in a "first choice" side Underhill is the preferred 7.

If you'd told me that based on their performances last Autumn and in the 6N I would have been more than a little surprised. To me - and in some ways it's a good job I'm not in charge of selection, I guess - Curry is the better 7, his breakdown work and link play more nuanced than that of Underhill. Underhill, on the other hand, is a destructive tackler - possibly our best "chopper" since Worsley, and carries well in traffic.

Perhaps I just have an old fashioned view of the back row roles, and the game is evolving. Regardless, let's hope they keep proving Eddie right, even if it proves me wrong!

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Post by RDW on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 8:58 am

Why are England flogging Vunipola so much? Played every game this season so far.

It's almost like Jones doesn't think he's a completely irreplaceable player!

Who actually is England's back up 8? Wilson?

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Post by Rinsure on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 9:01 am

RDW wrote:Why are England flogging Vunipola so much? Played every game this season so far.

It's almost like Jones doesn't think he's a completely irreplaceable player!

Who actually is England's back up 8? Wilson?

Yep, Wilson, and he's on the bench for this one.

The thinking is that Billy needs to be playing to maintain his "level", and it's a risk / reward calculation which Eddie feels benefits the side as we go deeper into the tournament.

I'll admit to a degree of nervousness about the injury risk, but if he plays, he plays.

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Post by hugehandoff on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 9:04 am

They think Billy is better the more he plays and there is 8 days between USA and Argentina matches so they want to keep him going. I would imagine they will want to take him off with 25 to go, but let's see how the other flankers fare first.

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Post by Poorfour on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 9:46 am

It looks to me like Eddie is trying to keep the spine of the team from the Tonga game together - Marler, Curry, Vunipola, Ford, Daly.

I am not too worried about Billy playing again - he's had enough time out that he's relatively fresh and the way he plays he will benefit from having a string of games to get the match toughness back. USA - Lasike aside - should be less bruising than Tonga, and I hope we get to see Wilson at 8 later in the game just so that he can get into the tempo of the position.

As for Marler starting over Genge, he was subbed pretty early against Tonga so I think Eddie is trying to give them 40 minutes each until he has Mako back (and it will be interesting to see if Marler spends any time at TH in this game). But Marler is the more natural starter - the best setpiece LH and the best defensively, whereas Genge and Mako have more impact later in the game.
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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 9:51 am

Do not normally see the LH and BS described as the spine of the team Very Happy

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Post by Poorfour on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 9:56 am

LondonTiger wrote:Do not normally see the LH and BS described as the spine of the team Very Happy

It's more typically TH and RH lock, but there's definitely a sense of keeping some consistency in key positions.
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Post by BamBam on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 10:08 am

Shame Slade is out, but happy enough with the rest. I'm with those who are slightly nervous about Billy playing every game, but would hope he comes off around 50 mins to give Wilson a decent amount of time at 8


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Post by Soul Requiem on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 10:09 am

Completely passed me by that Piers Francis is playing, played youth Rugby with him many years ago.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 10:17 am

Poorfour wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Do not normally see the LH and BS described as the spine of the team Very Happy

It's more typically TH and RH lock, but there's definitely a sense of keeping some consistency in key positions.

I have usually seen it as Hooker, (sometimes locks), No8, SH, FH, FB

Either way not sure Eddie is worrying too much about the spine of the team and just doing what he seems is right. (Though I do sometimes wonder if he looks at what people say then does something to spite them)

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Post by Gooseberry on Thu 26 Sep 2019, 2:09 pm

England have the second and third biggest wins of the tournament so far, no major injuries, no cards. Possibly their bets start to a world cup campaign? 

Theres only two games that really matter for them in the pool stage though

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Post by Old Man on Thu 26 Sep 2019, 3:00 pm

Not really a challenging start though, is it?

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Post by BamBam on Thu 26 Sep 2019, 3:22 pm

Yep, tournament starts now for us. Even so, got to be happy with getting everyone a run out, securing the bonus points pretty comfortably and no new injuries


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Post by miaow on Thu 26 Sep 2019, 7:24 pm

The impressive thing about England has been their territorial control. You'd expect them to with their kicking game, but eventhough USA looked ore potent than Tonga, and played looser, they never really looked like scoring a try again.

That would be an area I'd be focusing on in the next 2 games. Keep France in their own half and England should walk it. Argentina will probably have a better kicking game than France, but not quite the same physical power, so might not be as able to get over the gainline in the English 22.

Positive start for England for sure. Lots of mistakes, lots of penalties, but plenty of explosive tries and the system of set-piece, kick, set-piece, try is working well.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 27 Sep 2019, 8:39 am

Report in the Guardian suggests that Mako and Nowell will be available for selection against Argentina and they are hopeful for Slade.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 27 Sep 2019, 12:10 pm

Quill gets a 3 match ban.

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Japan 2019 - Pool C - Argentina England France Tonga USA - Page 3 Empty Re: Japan 2019 - Pool C - Argentina England France Tonga USA

Post by BamBam on Fri 27 Sep 2019, 12:14 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Report in the Guardian suggests that Mako and Nowell will be available for selection against Argentina and they are hopeful for Slade.

Great news. I'd probably have both Mako / Nowell on the bench to get them back into the swing of things, but think both are part of Eddie's first choice side and wouldn't be surprised if they go straight in. Slade sounds a bit further away

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