Rugby World Cup - Eligibility, Poaching etc

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 10 Sep 2019, 7:04 pm

First topic message reminder :

LondonTiger wrote:
https://rugby365.com/countries/argentina/world-cup-players-born-abroad

To try and avoid other threads getting caught up in discussions about player eligibility and following recent comments from Agustin Pichot and Danny Care I have set up this thread with the above article as a starter. Taken from a NZ website it is as you would expect defensive of NZ. A WoL article would do the same for Wales as would joe.ie etc etc.

Some key things:


Birth does not always tell the full story.

Some examples then given where place of birth is not always relevant.


Number of Foreign-born Players per Country

19 Samoa
16 Tonga
15 USA
14 Japan, Scotland
12 Australia
8 Italy, Wales
7 England
5 France
4 Canada, Fiji, Ireland, New Zealand
1 Georgia, Russia South Africa
0 Argentina, Namibia, Uruguay

The Main Donors
48 New Zealand
18 England
13 Australia, South Africa
8 Tonga
7 Fiji
6 Ireland

It should be noted that these numbers are not necessarily correct. England have 6 players not born in England, the guys writing the article just cannot count.
Now the warning (and I may regret starting this thread):
This is not an excuse to slag off other countries. Please concentrate on your own country as much as possible, after all are you actually losing players you want to keep? 




Just seen this from care as well on the bbc:

Players are just pawns. You look at it and is there much loyalty in it? Maybe not," he told Rugby Union Weekly.

"Some are given an easier route than those who worked a fair bit harder."

Subscribe to the BBC's Rugby Union Weekly podcast

Care, 32, has won 84 England caps, but only one of those has come at a World Cup. He was ruled out of the 2011 tournament with a toe injury and was third-choice scrum-half in 2015, making a solitary appearance in England's 60-3 dead-rubber win over Uruguay.

He says that he holds no hard feelings towards Heinz, who moved to Gloucester in 2015 from Canterbury-based Crusaders, but believes the current eligibility rules are unfair.

Second row Devin Toner was overlooked for Ireland's World Cup squad in favour of South Africa-born Jean Kleyn, who served out the required three-year residency period in August.

At 33, Toner is unlikely to be in contention for a place at France 2023

World Rugby vice president Agustin Pichot tweeted that he was sympathetic to Toner's predicament. The governing body has already changed the rule, extending the residency period to five years from the end of 2020.

"I started playing rugby at five in England, dreamed of playing for my country in a World Cup," continued Care.

"You do all the hard work, you stay in England, don't look to play for a club abroad to make more money because you want to play for England and win a World Cup - now that is not going to happen.

"A lot of players who have done well for whatever country and it comes to the World Cup, the pinnacle, where you hope that loyalty and hard work is paid back and it is taken away from you. That is the disappointment. That is why is hurts so much."

You can understand the bitterness but it's a little me me me and somehow being owed. Comes back for me to those comments coming out about how it's a better atmosphere in the england camp these days. Perhaps you dont want those players who perhaps spit their dummy out a little?


Last edited by LondonTiger on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 9:00 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Because I am not great at merging threads - LT)

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Post by Brendan on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 10:01 am

Taylorman wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Kaino and nonu for example, should be able to play for Samoa this time. This is a tournament that should have the very best players on the planet at it. Those two for Samoa would lift the side and give Samoan fans something to cheer for and identify with.

If all these players were proud of their heritage, and wanted to represent the country of their ancestors, then perhaps they should have done it before switching their allegiance at a drop of a hat for the money. It's obvious that money means more than anything to these SH players.

Yes, there is that view, one I’d expect not being familiar with Pacific Island culture. Getting a pro contract is gold for some of these players but that doesn’t mean it’s not hard for them, and their families, though I wouldn’t expect those in the land of have your cake and eat it to to understand that.

Celts understand it well. The Italian players born in Argentina talk about how they were always Italian and just lived in Argentina. Kanio and Nonu were all about playing for the ABs and nothing for their heritage. A certain Fijian played one game for Fiji then never played again because he didn't want to play for them, it was the ABs or nothing (and wouldn't have played for Fiji if he was lied to in his view)

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 10:05 am

Could'a played for Ireland, that lad...had he not been cheated into playing for Fiji when all he ever wanted to do was play for New Zealand.

Does all that prove the World is a globe? Or is it still flat?

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Post by Soul Requiem on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 10:05 am

Taylorman wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Kaino and nonu for example, should be able to play for Samoa this time. This is a tournament that should have the very best players on the planet at it. Those two for Samoa would lift the side and give Samoan fans something to cheer for and identify with.

If all these players were proud of their heritage, and wanted to represent the country of their ancestors, then perhaps they should have done it before switching their allegiance at a drop of a hat for the money. It's obvious that money means more than anything to these SH players.

Yes, there is that view, one I’d expect not being familiar with Pacific Island culture. Getting a pro contract is gold for some of these players but that doesn’t mean it’s not hard for them, and their families, though I wouldn’t expect those in the land of have your cake and eat it to to understand that.

That is such a non comment.

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 10:15 am

Aye.  Up here in the Hemisphere of plenty there are family units living in hotel rooms because they've either been evicted from rental accommodation or have been thrown out of their own homes by banks.  There are queues for free food in big glamorous cities.  There are cardboard box homes in doorsteps....and all done in a climate that regularly rains cold, rains long and more than likely turns to sleet and snow for a good few dark months.

But poverty?  No.  We don't have that.  That's only for poor people in warm places like South America, Africa and the Pacific Islands.

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Post by LordDowlais on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 12:03 pm

Taylorman wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Kaino and nonu for example, should be able to play for Samoa this time. This is a tournament that should have the very best players on the planet at it. Those two for Samoa would lift the side and give Samoan fans something to cheer for and identify with.

If all these players were proud of their heritage, and wanted to represent the country of their ancestors, then perhaps they should have done it before switching their allegiance at a drop of a hat for the money. It's obvious that money means more than anything to these SH players.

Yes, there is that view, one I’d expect not being familiar with Pacific Island culture. Getting a pro contract is gold for some of these players but that doesn’t mean it’s not hard for them, and their families, though I wouldn’t expect those in the land of have your cake and eat it to to understand that.

Why can't they have a pro contract, and STILL represent their ancestral countries ?

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Post by The Oracle on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 12:20 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Kaino and nonu for example, should be able to play for Samoa this time. This is a tournament that should have the very best players on the planet at it. Those two for Samoa would lift the side and give Samoan fans something to cheer for and identify with.

If all these players were proud of their heritage, and wanted to represent the country of their ancestors, then perhaps they should have done it before switching their allegiance at a drop of a hat for the money. It's obvious that money means more than anything to these SH players.

Yes, there is that view, one I’d expect not being familiar with Pacific Island culture. Getting a pro contract is gold for some of these players but that doesn’t mean it’s not hard for them, and their families, though I wouldn’t expect those in the land of have your cake and eat it to to understand that.

Why can't they have a pro contract, and STILL represent their ancestral countries ?


They can. But often they just choose not to. But also there are some unscrupulous clubs who persuade them not to represent their country as a condition of the contract. Completely against the IRB rules so the club get around it with well chosen words ("the contract is on offer for a non-international player", etc.). The problem for the clubs is that often the whole reason a Fijian, for example, is signed by a French club is to cover for when a French player is on international duty. So I get the pressures the clubs are under too. It then becomes a game of trying to sign awesome talent who would not be selected for international rugby, which is like trying to find rocking horse sh**!
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Post by LordDowlais on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 12:58 pm

If these players felt so strongly about representing the ancestral homes, then they would do it. But lets be honest, they don't.

Heck, there are a lot of SH players who do not give a feck about representing their proper country of birth if the money is right. Sadly, for the SH players, money comes before loyalty it would seem, they are like mercenaries.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 1:03 pm

All players are going to be a little bothered about money tbf. It's not a sh thing. As long as people play by the rules let them get on with it.

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Post by LordDowlais on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 1:10 pm

I have no problem with people choosing money, but when they have made their choice, they need to live with it, not decide a few years later, to try out for another nation.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 1:16 pm

And that point can be made without the sh comment tbf. The NH may very well be in the same boat in a couple of years. People do feel attachment to ancestry and to more than 1 country very often. It's a global world nowadays.

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 1:18 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:And that point can be made without the sh comment tbf. The NH may very well be in the same boat in a couple of years. People do feel attachment to ancestry and to more than 1 country very often. It's a global world nowadays.

It's flat! No fake news please.... Whistle

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 1:21 pm

Yeah global world is garbled there. You know what I mean!

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Post by The Oracle on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 1:28 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:And that point can be made without the sh comment tbf. The NH may very well be in the same boat in a couple of years. People do feel attachment to ancestry and to more than 1 country very often. It's a global world nowadays.

Steven Shingler and the whole saga with him is a good NH example. Felt Scottish for a minute because he couldn't see a chance of getting a look in at 10 for Wales with about 10 players in front of him! He was not eligible so suddenly he's back at the Scarlets with dreams of playing for Wales. And this is where the lines of professionalism and sport are now blurred. It's a job for these guys so they want to maximise their income over a short career, and international rugby is another source to top up that income, but eligibility is not based on standard work/HR laws. It's what you are (or what your parents/grandparents are) rather than who you are. In HR law I guess its the reverse.

It's tough for the players and their families to be limited on the money they can earn due to the country they were born in, now that the sport is pro and the salaries are significant. You can be a fellow pro player, doing the exactly the same job as another player on the pitch, putting your body on the line and literally bleeding for your country..... but one is born in England and gets a £20k win bonus on top of a good match fee, while the other was born in Samoa and playing for them he gets nothing and pays for his own flight to training and matches around the world. That's the reality. And I can see why some might try to help their families out by moving abroad and ending up in a different colour international jersey.
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Post by LordDowlais on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 1:33 pm

The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:And that point can be made without the sh comment tbf. The NH may very well be in the same boat in a couple of years. People do feel attachment to ancestry and to more than 1 country very often. It's a global world nowadays.

Steven Shingler and the whole saga with him is a good NH example.  Felt Scottish for a minute because he couldn't see a chance of getting a look in at 10 for Wales with about 10 players in front of him!  He was not eligible so suddenly he's back at the Scarlets with dreams of playing for Wales.  And this is where the lines of professionalism and sport are now blurred.  It's a job for these guys so they want to maximise their income over a short career, and international rugby is another source to top up that income, but eligibility is not based on standard work/HR laws.  It's what you are (or what your parents/grandparents are) rather than who you are.  In HR law I guess its the reverse.  

It's tough for the players and their families to be limited on the money they can earn due to the country they were born in, now that the sport is pro and the salaries are significant.  You can be a fellow pro player, doing the exactly the same job as another player on the pitch, putting your body on the line and literally bleeding for your country..... but one is born in England and gets a £20k win bonus on top of a good match fee, while the other was born in Samoa and playing for them he gets nothing and pays for his own flight to training and matches around the world.  That's the reality.  And I can see why some might try to help their families out by moving abroad and ending up in a different colour international jersey.

For the Pacific Islanders yes, but what about the swathes of New Zealanders, Australians, South Africans who change their allegiance, their countries offer the same as other tier one countries, yet here we all are, choc-a-block full of them in all our national teams.

Are they all seriously not good enough for their country of origin ?

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Post by lostinwales on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 1:44 pm

It is not just a question of 'good enough'. Different players will thrive or struggle in different environments. For England we had Flutey. He wasn't going anywhere in NZ but did very well, if only for a couple of years, here in the UK. That wasn't because of rugby standards but much more to do with where he was at in his life.

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Post by The Oracle on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 1:52 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:And that point can be made without the sh comment tbf. The NH may very well be in the same boat in a couple of years. People do feel attachment to ancestry and to more than 1 country very often. It's a global world nowadays.

Steven Shingler and the whole saga with him is a good NH example.  Felt Scottish for a minute because he couldn't see a chance of getting a look in at 10 for Wales with about 10 players in front of him!  He was not eligible so suddenly he's back at the Scarlets with dreams of playing for Wales.  And this is where the lines of professionalism and sport are now blurred.  It's a job for these guys so they want to maximise their income over a short career, and international rugby is another source to top up that income, but eligibility is not based on standard work/HR laws.  It's what you are (or what your parents/grandparents are) rather than who you are.  In HR law I guess its the reverse.  

It's tough for the players and their families to be limited on the money they can earn due to the country they were born in, now that the sport is pro and the salaries are significant.  You can be a fellow pro player, doing the exactly the same job as another player on the pitch, putting your body on the line and literally bleeding for your country..... but one is born in England and gets a £20k win bonus on top of a good match fee, while the other was born in Samoa and playing for them he gets nothing and pays for his own flight to training and matches around the world.  That's the reality.  And I can see why some might try to help their families out by moving abroad and ending up in a different colour international jersey.

For the Pacific Islanders yes, but what about the swathes of New Zealanders, Australians, South Africans who change their allegiance, their countries offer the same as other tier one countries, yet here we all are, choc-a-block full of them in all our national teams.

Are they all seriously not good enough for their country of origin ?


That's the exaggeration of the century!

But yes, some of them are not good enough so they look for a club contract elsewhere. You can bet your bottom dollar that if Hadleigh Parkes had been a multi-cap All Black he wouldn't have considered coming to Wales until such time as he was no longer wanted by the All Black and he wanted to top up the pension at a NH club. Have you seen how much a bog standard Super rugby player gets in NZ?! It's about the same as an admin assistant or a call centre worker over here! Not knocking those jobs, but for a pro sportsman with a short career you're going to want more. So yes, some come here. I bet a lot of them don't actually come thinking about international rugby. They're offered a place by a coach that knows them (as in the case of Parkes) and then due to good performances suddenly catch the eye and they get capped. Remember in NZ all 3 million people are sh*t hot at rugby! Only 5 pro teams and 1 All Blacks squad. So lots of talent for not many spaces. So lets say you're a decent talent but maybe 4th at best in line for the All Blacks. You're on £20k equivalent. Scarlets have lost both centres to Wales for a lot of the season. You're offered £150k to go to the UK. Would you go? Not talking about playing for Wales now. The decision is a straight £20k at home of £150k in Wales. Would you go? Some wouldn't but the more adventurous might snap it up. Then after a couple of years you've been lighting up the Pro14. Gatland or Pivac says "we'd like you to train with us. You're good enough for international rugby. Fancy it"? Now some wouldn't. The real patriots would say 'nah, mate'. Others who have been taken in by the Welsh, made to feel part of the community, perhaps now have kids that are welsh, are in the welsh schools system, maybe even speaking welsh...... they might think they'd like to give something back. Maybe they want their Welsh child to see daddy playing for Wales. So for some this might be enough to 'change allegiances'. Maybe.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 1:57 pm

It always comes back to individuals , you're right Oracle. Symonds was hearing murmurs of NZ calling.. he decided to come back to England I expect he thought it would almost be a foregone conclusion he'd be picked and has disappeared. Some.would have stayed and you never know. As fans we all like to think we'd pick the country we support but it is a job as much as a calling.

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Post by LordDowlais on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 2:07 pm

The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:And that point can be made without the sh comment tbf. The NH may very well be in the same boat in a couple of years. People do feel attachment to ancestry and to more than 1 country very often. It's a global world nowadays.

Steven Shingler and the whole saga with him is a good NH example.  Felt Scottish for a minute because he couldn't see a chance of getting a look in at 10 for Wales with about 10 players in front of him!  He was not eligible so suddenly he's back at the Scarlets with dreams of playing for Wales.  And this is where the lines of professionalism and sport are now blurred.  It's a job for these guys so they want to maximise their income over a short career, and international rugby is another source to top up that income, but eligibility is not based on standard work/HR laws.  It's what you are (or what your parents/grandparents are) rather than who you are.  In HR law I guess its the reverse.  

It's tough for the players and their families to be limited on the money they can earn due to the country they were born in, now that the sport is pro and the salaries are significant.  You can be a fellow pro player, doing the exactly the same job as another player on the pitch, putting your body on the line and literally bleeding for your country..... but one is born in England and gets a £20k win bonus on top of a good match fee, while the other was born in Samoa and playing for them he gets nothing and pays for his own flight to training and matches around the world.  That's the reality.  And I can see why some might try to help their families out by moving abroad and ending up in a different colour international jersey.

For the Pacific Islanders yes, but what about the swathes of New Zealanders, Australians, South Africans who change their allegiance, their countries offer the same as other tier one countries, yet here we all are, choc-a-block full of them in all our national teams.

Are they all seriously not good enough for their country of origin ?


That's the exaggeration of the century!

But yes, some of them are not good enough so they look for a club contract elsewhere.  You can bet your bottom dollar that if Hadleigh Parkes had been a multi-cap All Black he wouldn't have considered coming to Wales until such time as he was no longer wanted by the All Black and he wanted to top up the pension at a NH club.  Have you seen how much a bog standard Super rugby player gets in NZ?!  It's about the same as an admin assistant or a call centre worker over here!  Not knocking those jobs, but for a pro sportsman with a short career you're going to want more.  So yes, some come here.  I bet a lot of them don't actually come thinking about international rugby.  They're offered a place by a coach that knows them (as in the case of Parkes) and then due to good performances suddenly catch the eye and they get capped.  Remember in NZ all 3 million people are sh*t hot at rugby!  Only 5 pro teams and 1 All Blacks squad.  So lots of talent for not many spaces.  So lets say you're a decent talent but maybe 4th at best in line for the All Blacks.  You're on £20k equivalent.  Scarlets have lost both centres to Wales for a lot of the season.  You're offered £150k to go to the UK.  Would you go?  Not talking about playing for Wales now.  The decision is a straight £20k at home of £150k in Wales.  Would you go?  Some wouldn't but the more adventurous might snap it up.  Then after a couple of years you've been lighting up the Pro14.  Gatland or Pivac says "we'd like you to train with us.  You're good enough for international rugby.  Fancy it"?  Now some wouldn't.  The real patriots would say 'nah, mate'.  Others who have been taken in by the Welsh, made to feel part of the community, perhaps now have kids that are welsh, are in the welsh schools system, maybe even speaking welsh...... they might think they'd like to give something back.  Maybe they want their Welsh child to see daddy playing for Wales.  So for some this might be enough to 'change allegiances'.  Maybe.


I do not know how much money they are on, but I would imagine that your average All Black, or Springbok are on a lot more than £20-25K per year. It tells you everything that is wrong with our systems though if we up here are ready to pay top money on players who have not made the grade in their own countries though. chin

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 2:26 pm

Depends if it improves your own team. Even then the boys like botha were widely welcomed whereas shields not so much. Shields is linked closer to England.
To bring it back round to cares comments I think players will turn a blind eye until its their position threatened. At that point some will find anything to get bitter about.

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Post by The Oracle on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 2:57 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:And that point can be made without the sh comment tbf. The NH may very well be in the same boat in a couple of years. People do feel attachment to ancestry and to more than 1 country very often. It's a global world nowadays.

Steven Shingler and the whole saga with him is a good NH example.  Felt Scottish for a minute because he couldn't see a chance of getting a look in at 10 for Wales with about 10 players in front of him!  He was not eligible so suddenly he's back at the Scarlets with dreams of playing for Wales.  And this is where the lines of professionalism and sport are now blurred.  It's a job for these guys so they want to maximise their income over a short career, and international rugby is another source to top up that income, but eligibility is not based on standard work/HR laws.  It's what you are (or what your parents/grandparents are) rather than who you are.  In HR law I guess its the reverse.  

It's tough for the players and their families to be limited on the money they can earn due to the country they were born in, now that the sport is pro and the salaries are significant.  You can be a fellow pro player, doing the exactly the same job as another player on the pitch, putting your body on the line and literally bleeding for your country..... but one is born in England and gets a £20k win bonus on top of a good match fee, while the other was born in Samoa and playing for them he gets nothing and pays for his own flight to training and matches around the world.  That's the reality.  And I can see why some might try to help their families out by moving abroad and ending up in a different colour international jersey.

For the Pacific Islanders yes, but what about the swathes of New Zealanders, Australians, South Africans who change their allegiance, their countries offer the same as other tier one countries, yet here we all are, choc-a-block full of them in all our national teams.

Are they all seriously not good enough for their country of origin ?


That's the exaggeration of the century!

But yes, some of them are not good enough so they look for a club contract elsewhere.  You can bet your bottom dollar that if Hadleigh Parkes had been a multi-cap All Black he wouldn't have considered coming to Wales until such time as he was no longer wanted by the All Black and he wanted to top up the pension at a NH club.  Have you seen how much a bog standard Super rugby player gets in NZ?!  It's about the same as an admin assistant or a call centre worker over here!  Not knocking those jobs, but for a pro sportsman with a short career you're going to want more.  So yes, some come here.  I bet a lot of them don't actually come thinking about international rugby.  They're offered a place by a coach that knows them (as in the case of Parkes) and then due to good performances suddenly catch the eye and they get capped.  Remember in NZ all 3 million people are sh*t hot at rugby!  Only 5 pro teams and 1 All Blacks squad.  So lots of talent for not many spaces.  So lets say you're a decent talent but maybe 4th at best in line for the All Blacks.  You're on £20k equivalent.  Scarlets have lost both centres to Wales for a lot of the season.  You're offered £150k to go to the UK.  Would you go?  Not talking about playing for Wales now.  The decision is a straight £20k at home of £150k in Wales.  Would you go?  Some wouldn't but the more adventurous might snap it up.  Then after a couple of years you've been lighting up the Pro14.  Gatland or Pivac says "we'd like you to train with us.  You're good enough for international rugby.  Fancy it"?  Now some wouldn't.  The real patriots would say 'nah, mate'.  Others who have been taken in by the Welsh, made to feel part of the community, perhaps now have kids that are welsh, are in the welsh schools system, maybe even speaking welsh...... they might think they'd like to give something back.  Maybe they want their Welsh child to see daddy playing for Wales.  So for some this might be enough to 'change allegiances'.  Maybe.


I do not know how much money they are on, but I would imagine that your average All Black, or Springbok are on a lot more than £20-25K per year. It tells you everything that is wrong with our systems though if we up here are ready to pay top money on players who have not made the grade in their own countries though. chin


I didn't say an All Black.  I've talked about the players not deemed good enough for the All Blacks.  That's why I specifically mentioned a player 4th in line at best for an All Black spot.  I specifically said a bog standard super rugby player.  It was on this very site that someone mentioned the salary of your average pro club man in NZ.  And yes £20-25k equivalent was mooted for a non test pro. Like I said, if they're an All Black then they're likely to stay in NZ because the salary is topped up and they have commercial perks, sponsorship, etc.  It's the ones lower down the pecking order that come here early in their careers - Bundee Aki, Hadleigh Parkes, Willis Halaholo, Johnny McNicoll, etc.  They're the ones with something to offer and are tempted by a pro salary in another country vs the likelihood of staying at home and earning a pittance compared to someone doing the same job in Wales/England/Ireland/Scotland/France.  It's just economics.


On your second point..... these players come in and are often better though, aren't they? Have you noticed that?  Hence why they end up being called up for international duty.  Bundee Aki, Hadleigh Parkes, Willis Halaholo, Johnny McNicoll.  Two have been called up.  The other two probably will be.  And it's because they've been brought over and have outshone the local talent.  Parkes was brought over as centre cover for Scott Williams. He ended up better than him and Williams dropped to the bench and out of the squad altogether to the Ospreys. So actually, on your 2nd point I see it the other way around.  It says a lot for rugby in the NH when a player earning peanuts in NZ can come in and be better than the local talent who we're paying 5 x the salary!  We're overpaying the dross here.  Probably inflated wages due to having player quotas historically.  Think about it.  If we moved to a system in the Welsh regions where we were 100% welsh qualified.  No overseas players.  Suddenly we need to find 160 welsh players and pay them a pro salary even if they're not up to it.  Otherwise we wouldn't be able to put a full squad out!
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Post by miaow on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 3:34 pm

NZ clubs is different to NZ Super Rugby player. I'm really struggling to believe a Super Rugby player is on £25k a year. Double that and that's probably still a conservative estimate.

For your Mitre 10 Cup teams? Yeah, probably £20-30k. That's to be expected, and what some fringe players in the NH will be on when signing their first contracts.

Hadleigh Parkes is a weird one. Almost capped by default - Gatland wants a hard running 12, and we have a dearth of those atm. Scott Williams form/fitness issues, Roberts retiring - it left a gap for him. He's the first non-Welsh player we've picked in, what, 10-15 years? There have been a few English with Welsh grannies - Olly Kohn, Will James, Tomas Francis in the current squad. But I can't think of any SH player the other 4 Home Nations go for in the same way - not since Brent Cockbain, Hal Luscombe, Sonny Park etc. That was 15 years ago. Fair play to Parkes, he's taken his chance well, and from being a solid clubman he doesn't look too out of place at test level, although I don't think he has the same pedigree as Scott Williams, Gatland clearly likes him.

By and large, Wales really don't adhere to the 'poaching' thing. They have a good ex-pat scouting system, and getting Anscbome was a great piece of work, but there's a difference between a Welsh aprent and grandparent in my opinion. I see literally no issue with the Anscombe situation - he's suddenly wanted, it's a business, if NZRU want him they bid to keep him on the conveyor belt with the promise of ABs test caps. That might change if we cap Holaholo and McNicoll though, and not really one I'd like to see, however good they have been at club level.

I, personally, wouldn't want Wales to go down the route of the Scottish and Irish, and even the English, with scouting project players and signing them up to the clubs. I don't think the 5 year rule will stop that to be honest, if anything it will just chance scouting tactics to make them look at 22 year olds and younger, which could be even worse to the host countries. Wales suffer that with England taking loads of young players, with mixed returns.

One thing interesting though - the idea of lineage and identity in relation to generations. We always think about parents, but what about children? It's a good point, and I think McNicoll has stated his kids feel Welsh? And that would be a motivation to play for Wales. The only player I can think of who would really adhere to the Welsh kids would be John Barclay, whose children are Welsh speaking, but of course he's a captain for Scotland. But maybe there are others, like Aki. And how can you deny that the national identity 'thing' cannot come 'backup' from children as well? Frankly, you cannot, and I think it's a good point to make, and not one that's regularly mentioned. I think there's truth to that.

Having been around modern clubs, I can categorically say the higher you go, the less romance there is. It's a total meat factory. It is a business, there's marginal room for national identity and meaning, and you literally cannot begrudge players/coaches abiding by the rules to benefit their team and their careers. It's the unions that need to sort it out.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 3:43 pm

The english clubs famously tow the line of what the rfu want.

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 4:14 pm

If we could pick Sony Rugby Robots, then it would be much easier...but much more expensive!  Can you imagine the price of a Sony RR Unit with a Dan Carter chip inserted?

Only f**ing England could afford them - one as starter and one coming off the bench....just for tradition's sake as, of course, they would not tire.

Anyway, onward technology to stop all this endless talk of grannies and kids.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 6:15 pm

Taylorman wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
Taylorman wrote:...With only 5 pro sides in NZ, Sevens, Maori and the ABs, 8 or 9 positions as a pro head coach doesnt meet the demand...
You have an overseas coach in charge of the All Black Sevens, though.

Currently, after about 100 years it seemed of the same kiwi one.
The rest of us are still doing it that way. NZ is the first tier one rugby nation to select a foreign coach for its sevens side. If New Zealand has so many coaches but not enough positions, you would have to wonder why that happened?

To be honest, Taylorman, I have come around to your thinking on some issues over the years. I used to give NZ and Australia a much harder time over Pacific Islander players until I realized what immigration naturally does for qualification. I don't think that absolves the Home unions for a moment. However, the Southen Unions are not in a position to throw stones when they have always, and I mean ALWAYS, acted in their own interests, rather than in what what neutral supporters might consider the interests of the sport.

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Post by Taylorman on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 6:18 pm

Brendan wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
Taylorman wrote:...With only 5 pro sides in NZ, Sevens, Maori and the ABs, 8 or 9 positions as a pro head coach doesnt meet the demand...
You have an overseas coach in charge of the All Black Sevens, though.

And their last two head coaches needed NH international rugby experience before getting the top job.  All their other coaches that didn't go overseas where't great WC time so I guess there is something missing in NZ that the coaches need from outside.

Let's be honest who was the last  SH coach to come two a 6Nation country and hit the ground running at Club or Country. I think all the successful SH coaches in Europe had to learn new things before they became successful.  It's not like they teach all the systems Joe or Gats have down in NZ, but it's par for the course here.  Listen to Rassie talk about how Pro14 made him a much better coach compared to what SR would have done.

Really? Like who? Graham Henry and Steve Hansen? Who came back and failed miserably in their first World Cup attempt in 07 and nearly got sacked? lost a series to the Boks on 09? It took those experiences to make them who they were. It took Hansen 8 years back in NZ before he was able to take over. You really think his efforts in Wales made him what he is today? Rubbish. If anything it gave him a bad start.

Henry was a great coach before he left. It took him ages to get back into winning again.

InnS hmidt and Gats, and all the other coaches you keep getting over they have experience in either playing or coaching sides that know how to win.

All your coaches know how to do is lose. Generally. Look at your coaches this World Cup. Who are the successful ones? Any?

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Post by Taylorman on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 6:24 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
Taylorman wrote:...With only 5 pro sides in NZ, Sevens, Maori and the ABs, 8 or 9 positions as a pro head coach doesnt meet the demand...
You have an overseas coach in charge of the All Black Sevens, though.

Currently, after about 100 years it seemed of the same kiwi one.
The rest of us are still doing it that way. NZ is the first tier one rugby nation to select a foreign coach for its sevens side. If New Zealand has so many coaches but not enough positions, you would have to wonder why that happened?

To be honest, Taylorman, I have come around to your thinking on some issues over the years. I used to give NZ and Australia a much harder time over Pacific Islander players until I realized what immigration naturally does for qualification. I don't think that absolves the Home unions for a moment. However, the Southen Unions are not in a position to throw stones when they have always, and I mean ALWAYS, acted in their own interests, rather than in what what neutral supporters might consider the interests of the sport.

Didn’t Ben what’s his name take Fiji first anyway, sevens is not a career choice in NZ domestic rugby. It’s not a pro sport at any level bar the sevens circuit itself. Our players are XVs players that either play sevens to get a start, ie Lomu, Cullen etc,or cant crack the AB or even a Super rugby side. We play it well, but we don’t take it as seriously as XVs u til the Olympic or something like that. I don’t count it as part of the NZ coaching mainstream. Tietjens is the only NZ coach there’s ever been. Not a lot were banging his door down.

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Post by Taylorman on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 6:42 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Kaino and nonu for example, should be able to play for Samoa this time. This is a tournament that should have the very best players on the planet at it. Those two for Samoa would lift the side and give Samoan fans something to cheer for and identify with.

If all these players were proud of their heritage, and wanted to represent the country of their ancestors, then perhaps they should have done it before switching their allegiance at a drop of a hat for the money. It's obvious that money means more than anything to these SH players.

Yes, there is that view, one I’d expect not being familiar with Pacific Island culture. Getting a pro contract is gold for some of these players but that doesn’t mean it’s not hard for them, and their families, though I wouldn’t expect those in the land of have your cake and eat it to to understand that.

Why can't they have a pro contract, and STILL represent their ancestral countries ?

Often it’s because the clubs put pressure on them not to.

Look my point is simply that they do a lot for rugby the world over, they’re exciting to watch and I would go as far as saying Pacific Islander ethnic players on a head to head basis produce the best players in this game by a distance.

AllIm saying is, in return for having them scattered globally that for this tournament alone there should be a push to allow those that are not required by their adopted countries to play for their own people as ONE way of giving back to the PI nations. It’s a way of reuniting them with their own should that appeal to them. Players like Faletau and the Vunipolas who are in the north simply because their fathers got a pro contract there. He will have missed his Island way of life growing up as a kid. Not that he didn’t have a good upbringing in Wales.

I see in wiki Faletau allowed others to call him Toby because it was ‘easier’ but more recently prefers to be acknowledged as his real name. That alone is a sign of his yearning back to his cultural roots, something that is very strong with Pacific Islanders.

For Faletau to play for Tonga at a World Cup when no longer wanted by Wales would be a ‘returning to his roots’ gesture, for both himself, and his fathers side of the family.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 6:53 pm

Taylorman wrote:Didn’t Ben what’s his name take Fiji
Fiji is not a tier one rugby team

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Post by Taylorman on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 7:03 pm

Oh well that’s a bit selective. Sevens is a by product of Fifteens and in Fiji it’s far more competitive than here. Fiji have by far the best domestic Sevens set up. We have none, maybe a once a year regional thing on a weekend. We end up selecting ‘who’s left’ from XVs.

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Post by Cyril on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 7:03 pm

Then you get the likes of Nacewa who tie themselves to a Tier 2 country and then throw their toys out of the pram when they then can’t play for a Tier 1 nation.

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 7:08 pm

Yeah, you get the likes of Nacewa.......... thank God.

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Post by miaow on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 7:18 pm

Taylorman wrote:You really think his efforts in Wales made him what he is today? Rubbish. If anything it gave him a bad start.

This is the crux of why I don't think anyone takes you seriously. There's no understanding beneath the surface. If there's an opportunity to bash/blame the NH and validate/champion the SH, you take it, even if it's not the truth. Pathetic.

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Post by Taylorman on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 7:22 pm

Cyril wrote:Then you get the likes of Nacewa who tie themselves to a Tier 2 country and then throw their toys out of the pram when they then can’t play for a Tier 1 nation.

Geez really? Nacewa was at a time when players were only recently able to play both, Frank Bunce an example.

Navewa goes on for a minute and doesn’t even touch the ball and he’s consigned to Fiji forever at such a young age? He went on to become an All Black quality fullback and would definitely have had a long career there.

As such Fiji gave him no future so was left with the Blues then more money in Ireland, all because of that one minute.

And you call that throwing the toys out!

Unbelievable.

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Post by miaow on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 7:23 pm

Taylorman wrote:I see in wiki Faletau allowed others to call him Toby because it was ‘easier’ but more recently prefers to be acknowledged as his real name. That alone is a sign of his yearning back to his cultural roots, something that is very strong with Pacific Islanders.

Absolutely classic. Your opinions are full of factually incorrect balls - including this, of course; he's still known as Toby by all his Welsh mates, just wants his official name on the register as per his family's wishes, which is only good and proper. Nothing to do with 'yearning'. Talking about talking through your oh yeah just to make your lazy, bigoted point for the 5000th time in 2 years. You're like a Kiwi David Brent. It's embarrassing.

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Post by Taylorman on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 7:31 pm

miaow wrote:
Taylorman wrote:I see in wiki Faletau allowed others to call him Toby because it was ‘easier’ but more recently prefers to be acknowledged as his real name. That alone is a sign of his yearning back to his cultural roots, something that is very strong with Pacific Islanders.

Absolutely classic. Your opinions are full of factually incorrect balls - including this, of course; he's still known as Toby by all his Welsh mates, just wants his official name on the register as per his family's wishes, which is only good and proper. Nothing to do with 'yearning'. Talking about talking through your  oh yeah just to make your lazy, bigoted point for the 5000th time in 2 years. You're like a Kiwi David Brent. It's embarrassing.

No Miaow, you’re wrong, and the ignorance is embarrassing. I’ve known Pacific Islanders all my life. His non PI upbringing will be a missing part of his life for a fact. That yearning, and his growing up happily in Wales can co-exist together. That you see they can’t is the embarrassment. You have no idea.

His name is Taulupe. Not Toby. Wales changed it to Toby.

Imagine moving to Tonga and being called Ioane instead of John, a name handed down by your father. It’s that ignorance that allows for one to yearn for their roots. Happy to live in Tonga but you’re immediately told you aren’t British anymore through a renaming.


Last edited by Taylorman on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 7:41 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by miaow on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 7:36 pm

You've been getting more and more racist, and more and more arrogant, in the last few weeks, T, but this takes the peace.

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Post by Taylorman on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 7:47 pm

miaow wrote:You've been getting more and more racist, and more and more arrogant, in the last few weeks, T, but this takes the peace.

Really? I’m not the one who renamed Taulupe ‘Toby’.

What a crock. That’s racism right there. And you don’t even see it. Instead of embracing the origin of his name you change it. Yeah, real welcoming.

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Post by The Oracle on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 7:53 pm

Easy fellas. Faletau changed it to Toby. So I guess he’s the racist???
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Post by Engine#4 on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 7:53 pm

Taylorman wrote:
miaow wrote:
Taylorman wrote:I see in wiki Faletau allowed others to call him Toby because it was ‘easier’ but more recently prefers to be acknowledged as his real name. That alone is a sign of his yearning back to his cultural roots, something that is very strong with Pacific Islanders.

Absolutely classic. Your opinions are full of factually incorrect balls - including this, of course; he's still known as Toby by all his Welsh mates, just wants his official name on the register as per his family's wishes, which is only good and proper. Nothing to do with 'yearning'. Talking about talking through your  oh yeah just to make your lazy, bigoted point for the 5000th time in 2 years. You're like a Kiwi David Brent. It's embarrassing.

No Miaow, you’re wrong, and the ignorance is embarrassing. I’ve known Pacific Islanders all my life. His non PI upbringing will be a missing part of his life for a fact. That yearning, and his growing up happily in Wales can co-exist together. That you see they can’t is the embarrassment. You have no idea.

Do you know Taulupe Faletau personally?

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Post by Taylorman on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 8:46 pm

No, I don't need to know that to know there will be missing in his life his cultural roots. At some point he'll choose to embrace them more if he isnt already. Its called being a human being. Through his blood runs several hundred years of Tongan ancestory. Growing up in Wales will have confused that significantly, and I mention changing his name merely as a point of difference for him.

I'm not saying the whole of Wales is being racist I'm saying circumstances in life throw people together and without the rules they figure things out, what works for them. Toby may have been a way to allow him to fit him, to not have others laugh at him at school. The best of intentions may have been very genuine, albeit nauvely so.

We all expect that. But underlying it all he'll have grown gradually aware that people more like he is are elsewhere, and that creates the yearning.

That is all I'm saying. And thats why playing for their country of origin would be a good way to finish their careers, to complete some circle of life that took a slightly different path because of the sport.

No more, no less.


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 9:20 pm

Wow.

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Post by The Oracle on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 9:35 pm

Taylorman wrote:No, I don't need to know that to know there will be missing in his life his cultural roots. At some point he'll choose to embrace them more if he isnt already. Its called being a human being. Through his blood runs several hundred years of Tongan ancestory. Growing up in Wales will have confused that significantly, and I mention changing his name merely as a point of difference for him.

I'm not saying the whole of Wales is being racist I'm saying circumstances in life throw people together and without the rules they figure things out, what works for them. Toby may have been a way to allow him to fit him, to not have others laugh at him at school. The best of intentions may have been very genuine, albeit nauvely so.

We all expect that. But underlying it all he'll have grown gradually aware that people more like he is are elsewhere, and that creates the yearning.

That is all I'm saying. And thats why playing for their country of origin would be a good way to finish their careers, to complete some circle of life that took a slightly different path because of the sport.

No more, no less.



You need to extend it to every country then. The PIs and their people are not extra special or deserving of special rules. People move abroad with their families from all countries. The PIs shouldn’t be a special case. And neither would they want to be, I’m sure.

One rule for all, I say.
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Post by Taylorman on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 9:58 pm

Where I think they are, from a rugby sense. But as a general rule, tend to agree.

The one rule for all is a bit ill defined for me.

For example, why is it that 'Toby' didnt get to keep his real name then? One rule for all sure insists everyone is known by their own name.  So yeah, one rule for all, as long as its 'our rule'.

One rule for all is an easy position when you're not the one that has to do all the changing.

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Post by The Oracle on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 10:14 pm

Taylorman wrote:Where I think they are, from a rugby sense. But as a general rule, tend to agree.

The one rule for all is a bit ill defined for me.

For example, why is it that 'Toby' didnt get to keep his real name then? One rule for all sure insists everyone is known by their own name.  So yeah, one rule for all, as long as its 'our rule'.


No one changed his name you fool. That’s how he liked to be known. You’ll have to ask him why he wanted people to call him Toby. And people respected his wishes and called him Toby. And as soon as he wanted to be called Taulupe people respected that and referred to him from thence forth as Taulupe. That’s respect.

And when I say ‘one rule for all’ I’m talking about World Rugby and eligibility. In essence, I don’t think that the PIs should be a special case and be allowed to play for their ‘roots’ after being capped elsewhere when there will be cases of other players in other nations with the same desire to go back to their roots: Irish players who may want to play for their ‘roots’ in the South Africa, or Welsh capped players who want to go back to NZ, or Italians who want to go back to their Scottish roots. That’s the one rule for all I’m talking about. It’s not my rule. It’s World Rugby’s (currently).
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Post by The Oracle on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 10:16 pm

Hang on.....Are you seriously suggesting that Faletau was forced to change his name by the welsh government or something??? Please tell me I’m now misreading your post? What on earth are you on about ‘one rule for all’ in terms of his name?! Completely lost me now the more I read that post.
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Post by Brendan on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 10:22 pm

Tman do you think that all non T1 countries should be allowed to use players that have been tied to a nation or is it just the PIs because they are so small so need the help.

Also do you think the RC should be expanded to take in at least one PI team. And the Mitre 10 give a place to a PI team like Oz has done with Fiji.

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Post by Taylorman on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 10:41 pm

The Oracle wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Where I think they are, from a rugby sense. But as a general rule, tend to agree.

The one rule for all is a bit ill defined for me.

For example, why is it that 'Toby' didnt get to keep his real name then? One rule for all sure insists everyone is known by their own name.  So yeah, one rule for all, as long as its 'our rule'.


No one changed his name you fool. That’s how he liked to be known. You’ll have to ask him why he wanted people to call him Toby. And people respected his wishes and called him Toby. And as soon as he wanted to be called Taulupe people respected that and referred to him from thence forth as Taulupe. That’s respect.

And when I say ‘one rule for all’ I’m talking about World Rugby and eligibility. In essence, I don’t think that the PIs should be a special case and be allowed to play for their ‘roots’ after being capped elsewhere when there will be cases of other players in other nations with the same desire to go back to their roots: Irish players who may want to play for their ‘roots’ in the South Africa, or Welsh capped players who want to go back to NZ, or Italians who want to go back to their Scottish roots. That’s the one rule for all I’m talking about. It’s not my rule. It’s World Rugby’s (currently).  

Whereas I do. PI rugby has such a presence in World rugby and they get nothing back in return. I'm not saying its anyones fault, I just think that the rules need to be changed to allow 'Islanders' to play for their 'Island' at this event, regardless of whatever rules are out there.

We should allow Piutau, or Faletau to play for Tonga, purely because they are Tongan. Simple. I don't care who's rule it is.


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Post by miaow on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 11:09 pm

Taylorman wrote:No, I don't need to know that to know









No more, no less.


Please don't say it gets worse than this. It's generally going ok with the WUMs etc. keeping it to a minimum, everyone having lots of actual rugby to focus on.

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Post by Taylorman on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 11:13 pm

The Oracle wrote:
No one changed his name you fool. That’s how he liked to be known. You’ll have to ask him why he wanted people to call him Toby. And people respected his wishes and called him Toby. And as soon as he wanted to be called Taulupe people respected that and referred to him from thence forth as Taulupe. That’s respect.

 

He changed it because it meant he didn't have to get laughed at, or repeat it again endlessly, or spell it. Its commonplace to do that where people aren't familiar with a culture and its more important to fit in, than to be correct.

He changed it later because he had the confidence to stand on his own, that correctness in terms of his cultural identity was now more important.

I wouldnt call that respect.

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Post by miaow on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 11:19 pm

Really not worth engaging in proper debate.

https://youtu.be/89CI15umv18?t=1060

17:40 to the end.

This is the tripe Kiwis are fed by their state broadcaster.

- The PIs are a special case and AB hand-me-downs are totally fine as long as it doesn't weaken the ABs
- It's all the big, bad NH's fault...just don't ask for any specifics
- The ABs are also victims to the NH and it's fine to take PI players and immigrants and not put money back on the islands...because...again...NH's fault.
- NZ will change the rules to make sure PIers play for the ABs and turn down huge, helpful salaries in the NH if it means capping them a few times and then tossing them away, instead of having a test career like Tuiali or Faletau
- WR hates the PIs

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