England's Winter

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:22 pm

First topic message reminder :

New Zealand

T20 Internationals

Friday November 1st - Christchurch
Sunday November 3rd - Wellington
Tuesday November 5th - Nelson
Friday November 8th - Napier
Sunday November 10th - Auckland

Squad
Eoin Morgan (Middlesex) captain
Jonny Bairstow (Yorkshire)
Tom Banton (Somerset)
Sam Billings (Kent)
Pat Brown (Worcestershire)
Sam Curran (Surrey)
Tom Curran (Surrey)
Joe Denly (Kent)
Lewis Gregory (Somerset)
Chris Jordan (Sussex)
Saqib Mahmood (Lancashire)
Dawid Malan (Middlesex)
Matt Parkinson (Lancashire)
Adil Rashid (Yorkshire)
James Vince (Hampshire)


Tests

Wednesday November 20th - Tauranga
Thursday November 28th - Hamilton

Squad
Joe Root (Yorkshire) captain
Jofra Archer (Sussex)
Stuart Broad (Nottinghamshire)
Rory Burns (Surrey)
Jos Buttler (Lancashire)
Zak Crawley (Kent)
Sam Curran (Surrey)
Joe Denly (Kent)
Jack Leach (Somerset)
Saqib Mahmood (Lancashire)
Matthew Parkinson (Lancashire)
Ollie Pope (Surrey)
Dominic Sibley (Warwickshire)
Ben Stokes (Durham)
Chris Woakes (Warwickshire)



South Africa

Tests

Thursday 26th December - Centurion
Friday January 3rd - Cape Town
Thursday January 16th - Port Elizabeth
Friday January 24th - Johannesburg

Squad
TBC


ODI
Tuesday 4th February - Cape Town
Friday 7th February - Durban
Sunday 9th February - Johannesburg

Squad
TBC



T20 Internationals

Wednesday 12th February - East London
Friday 14th February - Durban
Sunday 16th February - Centurion


Sri Lanka

March 7th - Warm up 1, Katunayake (3 day)
March 12th - Warm up 2, Colombo (3 day)
March 19th - 1st Test, Galle
March 27th - 2nd Test, Colombo


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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:16 pm

Said it for the first test, and saying it again here - NZ pitches make for awfully boring cricket
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Post by JDizzle on Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:34 pm

Joe Denly.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:36 pm

Hoo boy
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Post by Duty281 on Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:42 pm

Geoff Boycott would be weeping with delight at the prospect of batting on this - a great chance for Taylor and Williamson to boost their averages before the inevitable rain.

Just shake hands now. Interesting to hear Atherton’s thoughts earlier on Sky - he thinks Sibley won’t be picked for South Africa.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:46 pm

Duty281 wrote:Geoff Boycott would be weeping with delight at the prospect of batting on this - a great chance for Taylor and Williamson to boost their averages before the inevitable rain.

Just shake hands now. Interesting to hear Atherton’s thoughts earlier on Sky - he thinks Sibley won’t be picked for South Africa.

Did he elaborate on why he thinks that Duty? I missed it.

I saw they’re going to bring in Jennings for the Sri Lanka tour as a horses for courses pick - which makes sense because he has been good in Asia
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Post by Duty281 on Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:52 pm

He thinks that because Sibley has looked ‘pretty limited’ with the bat in these two tests in New Zealand that he’ll be sent on the Lions tour this winter and back to county cricket to improve, similar to how Pope was treated after his debut.

Atherton went on to say that his preference would be for Denly to open and (I think) Bairstow at 3 for South Africa.

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Post by king_carlos on Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:05 pm

Oh Joe Denly. So bad that you feel sorry for him after that drop.

It's made all the more ironic by Denly having been considered a very good fielder going back the days when he was excellent at short leg for Kent, having only been put there because Rob Key thought he looked bored in the field!

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Post by Pal Joey on Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:06 pm

More agony.  Very Happy  

I love the way Smithy is talking up the pink ball tests in Australia. Almost as if this one was done and dusted... which it is.
That should be an exciting series starting next week though. I'm looking forward to it.

A good hit out here for England (given the conditions) experimenting with some potential talent but this series (to me) has been a little flat. Some missed opportunities mixed with some steady contributions. Good to see Joe snail it along and score some big runs. I don't mind seeing him build some confidence against that attack on that particular pitch. He looked quite comfortable in such benign conditions.

NZ just lacked the ability to cut through on Day 3 after the initial 2 wickets on Day 2 and the commentary team almost seemed to resign its fate to England either equalling or surpassing the NZ score. That took some wind out of the sails for me but I still enjoyed watching and listening to both matches. But by God some talk a lot of crap for what seems like ages don't they? A lot of dribble for long periods. Even that is mildly entertaining.  Smile

They'll have to get Boult and CdG ready in 9 days time otherwise I can see difficult times facing the likes of our pace trio... and now Lyon who have gathered a lot more confidence and gone about their business like a pack of big cats*... aided by a solitary mongoose late on.

*Panther - Cummins, Cougar - Hazlewood, Cheetah - Starc.


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Post by JDizzle on Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:06 pm

That’s the old ‘sacked after a year it is your fault, sacked after a week it is your boss’ fault’ cliche. Was hardly a surprise to anyone with eyes how Sibley batted this series - if you didn’t think that worked then you shouldn’t have picked him and used this series to try Crawley, or whoever. If you did think it worked, you give him more than three knocks.

Also, it would be a pretty galling feeling to be told to go away and work on your game and get replaced by a man with 0 FC runs since being told to go away and work on his game.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:33 pm

If they drop Sibley already and bring Bairstow back the England team will fail for years to come.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:42 pm

It would be utterly nuts to drop him - albeit it sounds like this is just what Atherton would do...which ultimately holds as much weight as me saying I’d pick a bowling attack of Jamie Dalrymple and Michael Yardy for Sri Lanka

Hopefully they see sense and give him the SA tour also
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Post by VTR on Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:17 am

Dalrymple and Yardy, they probably did play some ODIs together at one point. In the days before the template for winning the WC wasn't quite there...

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:58 am

Agree with the comments on Sibley, two tests isnt enough to decide hes not up to it, he did get a century in the warm up and has a lot of county cricket runs under his belt. Not sure what more he really has to learn at that level. 
It would absolutely make sense for Crawley who just wasn't ready for this tour to be punted to the Lions and ignored for the summer. But who do they think is going to open in SA if Sibley isn't? Sure hes not got a great range of scoring strokes, but if ever there was a place where being a good leaver was important its SA! On top of which hes clearly batted in exactly the manner that Silverwood demanded of the team.
What do they think players will learn on a Lions tour that they couldn't on an full England one? How to play county level attacks? 
Also worth noting that that the 4 day games for the Lions are scheduled after the SA tests  so in theory he could do both anyway. 

Theres more of a case for rotating players out in SL for me where they will want to make way for the spin trio again and where batsmen who can get at the spinners can succeed.

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Post by VTR on Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:21 am

I guess the thinking is Bairstow has a good record in SA, so they would want him in the team. Denly up to open, Bairstow at 3. Am not convinced by that myself, but that would be the plan and a long batting lineup on paper. Doing that would forget Nick Compton dead batting at 3 was a huge part of the win over there last time

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:23 am

Writing after stumps:

Mike Atherton wrote:Before the tour, there were two principal aims and two areas upon which England hoped to improve: the top-order batting and the need to lay firm foundations with a more traditional Test-match tempo; and the ability to take 20 wickets in inhospitable conditions. After the match, Root was keen to stress that the group had learnt a significant amount, although that has been a constant message from the skipper of late. Learning maybe, but an honest appraisal would be that improvements were hard to find.

Dominic Sibley has had limited opportunity to press his claim. There was nothing to suggest a long career awaits on the evidence of these three innings, although as someone who started off a long way from competence in my first two Tests, I remain wary of writing anyone off so quickly. All three dismissals raised concerns, though, from the way he was worked over in the first innings of both Tests, to his poor shot selection in the second innings against spin at Mount Maunganui.

England will probably keep faith with him for South Africa, although an obvious alternative would be to push Denly up the order to open again, creating a place for someone else at No 3. James Vince anyone? Denly’s 74 at Mount Maunganui again suggested a batsman finding his feet at this level, as did Rory Burns’s second Test hundred in Hamilton. They have certainly done enough to be sure of making the South Africa tour.

Pope looks a fine prospect, although he should not be burdened with the gloves as a reserve wicketkeeper while he is finding his way. He should be a fixture in the middle order, so that he will have gained significant exposure before the next Ashes tour in 2021-22. Having been sent to Potchefstroom for warm-weather training, clearly Jonny Bairstow is likely to return. My preference would be for him to reclaim the wicketkeeping gloves, but it is hard to see how that will happen one match into Jos Buttler’s second coming as a keeper.

Spin and pace win matches on flat pitches but England struggled in both departments. Jack Leach took two wickets at an average of 76.50, and then was omitted for the second Test as England changed tack by backing their pace attack and gambling on bowling first. It was a mistake not to give the wrist spinner, Matt Parkinson, a try in Hamilton and it is difficult to see how England can look beyond Leach and Moeen Ali for South Africa, even though their long-term aim must be to find an attacking rather than a holding spinner. Root said that he was due to sit down with Ali over the next few days to gauge the all-rounder’s appetite for Test cricket.

Jofra Archer’s series was a reminder, to him and us, about how demanding the game can be. Two wickets in 82 overs at an average of 104.50 was a long way short of expectations. He remains, though, an ace in the pack if used wisely. Root said that Archer had learnt “a huge amount” and that he remained “an extremely exciting talent” who has a lot to offer Test cricket and the England team, and that this first experience with the Kookaburra ball will stand him in good stead for South Africa.

As leading wicket-taker, Sam Curran did as well as, if not better, than expected and Chris Woakes showed in Hamilton that he remains a fierce competitor. Broad looked innocuous in Mount Maunganui, more incisive in Hamilton, and will be looking forward to re-establishing his new-ball partnership with James Anderson in South Africa. Stokes bowled sharply on the final day, showing no ill-effects from his knee injury, and Root was hopeful that there would be no long-term problems to limit his involvement for the rest of the winter.

With only three players of decent Test experience — Root, Broad and Stokes — perhaps it was too much to expect success against arguably New Zealand’s best ever Test team. Root’s double hundred apart, though, there were few highlights on this disappointing tour. England’s Test team remains a work in progress, as it has for the past four years. Reasons for optimism? South Africa, their next opponents, have bigger problems.

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:25 am

That loses all credibility at the point he mentions James Vince at 3.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:29 am

I suspect Bairstow will be recalled and replace Crawley in the squad, being both reserve batter and keeper. He is currently in South Africa at the Fast Bowling camp, batting in the nets against Anderson and Wood.

Possible squad:

Burns
Sibley
Denly
Root
Pope
Stokes
Buttler
Bairstow
Archer
Broad
Curran
Woakes
Anderson
Wood
Leach
(Ali)

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:30 am

Gooseberry wrote:That loses all credibility at the point he mentions James Vince at 3.

I read that as being written in a sarcastic tone. Malan could well be the non touring reserve batter though.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:07 am

He also wants rid of Buttler as keeper after one game too?

These guys spent all summer saying England need some fresh blood in the side, and give them a by stopping the chopping and changing, and now after two games want wholesale changes and bringing back Bairstow et al.

Make your bloody mind up!
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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:11 am

Add Malan and Bairstow to the squad. Not sure Ali needs to come along

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Post by TightHEAD on Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:13 am

Bring them home, its embarrassing.
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Post by Gooseberry on Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:22 am

Mo singlehandedly won a test last time he went to SA and they are notoriously bad against any form of spinners. Whilst the pitches tend to be extremely seam friendly they will want a spinner in the side (as they probably wish they had for this one), and I guess Mo gives them that option to balance the batting. That said Im not sure if hes ready to return yet or not, and Leach is the better spinner no argument. 

Not convinced that Malan is the answer for tests. Let him concentrate on the white ball stuff, his T20 form has been devastatingly good. Whilst in hindsight he maybe was ditched too soon from tests its not his strong suit and we have surely learnt from Roy and others that England are better off letting all but the very most talented batsmen concentrate on their best suit. Even Root isnt looking so secure as a T20 player. 

First time in 20 years England havent won a series in a year. Its pretty bad. Woakes at least looks like hes figured out how to bowl with the kookabura, Curran may have finished leading wicket taker but that was over two games and nothing like the SR and average Woakes managed.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:23 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:He also wants rid of Buttler as keeper after one game too?

These guys spent all summer saying England need some fresh blood in the side, and give them a by stopping the chopping and changing, and now after two games want wholesale changes and bringing back Bairstow et al.

Make your bloody mind up!

Someone has to come in as a genuine backup keeper, so Bairstow for Crawley makes sense. I would never have given Buttler the gloves but as they have I would keep him there.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:18 am

Jeetan Patel has been appointed as Spin Bowling Consultant for the tours of SA & SL. This is for tests and the limited overs stuff in SA. He will join up with England on Christmas Eve.

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Post by Gooseberry on Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:29 am

Interesting as Root mentioned they might continue with no spinner for SA and they are only having him for the white ball games there. Bit of a mistake in my opinion as SA have been consistently awful against spinners on any pitches for years now.
Its certainly needed if they dont rate/trust Leach enough and looking ahead to SL they absolutely will need to make spin the centre of their attack again.
Mo has always been better when he has done guidance on hand, maybe it's it helps fragile confidence. I guess a big decision for that tour is whether to stuck with Rashid Leach Mo which was succesful last year or chuck Parkinson in the mix. The state of Rashids shoulder could play a role in that decision, as could overlap with the lions which is where youd expect to see the likes of Mahmood and Parkinson bowling this winter.


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Post by Jetty on Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:49 am

Gooseberry wrote:Interesting as Root mentioned they might continue with no spinner for SA and they are only having him for the white ball games there. Bit of a mistake in my opinion as SA have been consistently awful against spinners on any pitches for years now.
Its certainly needed if they dont rate/trust Leach enough and looking ahead to SL they absolutely will need to make spin the centre of their attack again.
Mo has always been better when he has done guidance on hand, maybe it's it helps fragile confidence. I guess a big decision for that tour is whether to stuck with Rashid Leach Mo which was succesful last year or chuck Parkinson in the mix. The state of Rashids shoulder could play a role in that decision, as could overlap with the lions which is where youd expect to see the likes of Mahmood and Parkinson bowling this winter.


That would be a crazy idea. 5 fast bowlers!!!! What teams do that? Also points docked for slow over rates.
Ali did get MOM at Durban. 51-12-116-7.
Maharaj v Aus also at Durban 63.2-9-225-9


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Post by king_carlos on Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:27 pm

I imagine that Leach will be in the side for Sri Lanka where the ball will turn. He's the most accurate out of Mo, Rashid and himself which is worth much more when the ball in ripping square.

It's a shame that we didn't use one of the NZ tests (that fell outside the test championship) to give Mahmood or Parkinson a game. The only spinner England have recently tried since Swann who turns the ball significantly is Crane. His first-class average of 50 is hardly comparable to Parkinson with a FC average of 25.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:22 pm

Sounds like Bairstow, Wood and Anderson will be added to the squad announced tomorrow, and Mahmood will be the only one to drop out from the NZ tour (which makes sense with Wood and Jimmy now back to fitness)

Seems the sensible choice
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Post by Gooseberry on Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:50 pm

So Crawley stays?

Lots of talk around of CSA being in meltdown, sponsors dropping out, potential player strikes, corruption and general meltdown. But at least they can take wickets with a kookabura

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Post by LondonTiger on Sat Dec 07, 2019 8:24 am

Squad to be announced today with the 3 additions Olly quotes likely to be added.

Crawley may stay if they decide Bairstow is only the reserve keeper, but will apparently be in the Lions Squad come Feb.

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Post by king_carlos on Sat Dec 07, 2019 7:12 pm

Recalling Bairstow as a reserve keeper makes sense. Given he was told to go away and prove his form it would be pretty ironic if he's recalled as a batsman. It would also be a bit like putting a sticking plaster on a collapsing bridge if he gets plopped into the top order without playing a single first class match since being dropped.

I still feel that he should concentrate on batting. The way his average in the second innings after keeping drops off a cliff suggest that mental burnout over a match is an issue. Watching such a talented batsman get bowled through the gate wafting at a stock ball also gets rather frustrating...

As a keeper I see him continuing to average in the mid-30s whilst being a solid but unspectacular keeper. As a batsman I'd hope he could push his average into the 40s as that's where he has the talent to be.

With Buttler more suited to the counter attacking role at 7 and Foakes by far the best gloveman of the 3 I think it's the best scenario for the team as well.

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Post by Gooseberry on Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:45 am

Saying recalling Bairstownas a reserve keeper and that he should concentrate on his batting does not make sense.

It would be pretty ironic if hes recalled as something hes never been as good at Foakes as without getting better at that or proving his form in batting.

End ofnthebday hes a batsman keeper and at one time did manage to sustain an average around 40 which would put him in pretty hallowed company around the England players of the past two years or so.

If he can manage to turn up and not be a national embarrassment that wouldnt be too bad.

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Post by Gooseberry on Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:42 pm

Read suggestions from Smith that mo isn't assured a place on sti lank. I'm sure they'd love to have him and be able to play 3 spinners again even if he wasnt the best last time they went.

Even if he indicates hes ready to come back you get the same issue as with Bairstow, how do you go away and playbypurself into red ball form when all the winter monies in bbl/ipl/otherplsand the summer scheduleis already overloaded for the 3 format England players.


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