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Post by alive555 on Sun 22 Sep 2019, 11:26 am

First topic message reminder :

Lots of rugby expert pundits placing blame at the coach. Townsend is a one trick pony. Cotter got a lot more out of a far inferior group of players.

Rory Lawson

Former Scotland captain

Quote Message: The minimum standard that Scotland fans ask for is effort and fight. There was no tooth or bite to that performance. Normally you have something to hang on to - attack play or defensive solidity - but there was nothing. And to add to the misery, Hamish Watson's injury looks significant.


Ryan Grant

Former Scotland and Warriors player on BBC Radio Scotland

Quote Message: Scotland's attitude didn't look right. It's so disappointing to watch - especially in a World Cup opener where they should be right up for it.


Tom English

BBC Scotland's chief sports writer

Quote Message: Scotland didn't turn up. No urgency, no aggression, nothing. A pitiful performance. The Irish players are probably saying they can't believe how easy they had it. Scotland are an absolute soft touch.



Andy Nicol
@AndyNic9

Thank God that is over 😳 Massive disappointment but we park it and move on to next game against Samoa. Huge questions for whole squad/coaches in @Scotlandteam to answer in that game! #Sco #RWC2019 #keepthefaith

Peter Wright

Former Scotland prop on BBC Radio Scotland

Quote Message: The second half was even worse in the first - we just didn't get anything going and had no points. I can't remember a World Cup game where we haven't scored a try. More concerning is we didn't even threaten until after 70 minutes.
.
Shane Horgan

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Quote Message: That little phase was a good demonstration of the difference between the sides. It wasn't a bad move round the side from Scotland, but Ireland met it with such physicality and stopped it dead. It seemed like a lack of self-belief from Scotland that they would get over the line.

Sir Ian McGeechan assesses that Scottish effort: “It was a lack of patience. They tried to force things
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Post by NeilyBroon on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 6:35 am

Cockers seems to be plumping himself up for the job, making a statement on the WC. Interesting how he uses 'we' as well. Could well be the change we see, if any, in coach which wouldn't be ideal, though maybe he'll show more flexibility with his approach this season.
https://www.theoffsideline.com/scotland-richard-cockerill/
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Post by TJ on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 8:30 am

They played the #1 team in the world and lost. That’s all. Give them a chance. They can still make the quarters.

Its not the loss. Its the nature of the loss thats the problem

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Post by TJ on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 8:32 am


Scotland will always have the same issue with coaches - its not a top job so the choice will allways be between a young coach on the way up, an old coach on the way down, a patriotic scot ( who may be any of these) or a second rate coach. The only time in my lifetime this has not been so was Cotter

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Post by bsando on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 8:44 am

I think Scotland should stick with Toonie for a good while. I think it's good to have a Scottish coach leading Scotland and still think he's the right person for the job. There'll obviously be mistakes and poor games along the way but swapping out coaches and drastically changing the game plan are detrimental in my opinion. 15 sold out home games in a row shows there has been major progress. In 2010 we had 56,807 people attend Murrayfield for the All Blacks match, 10,000 people off full capacity.

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Post by tigertattie on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 8:47 am

Where’s the mods? Can we merge this and the other thread? It’s getting difficult to follow especially with folk talking about lions, and tigers and bears, oh my!
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Post by TightHEAD on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 8:54 am

Just need a few players to start thinking this and Scotland will be France!

nearly worked in 2011!
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Post by Taylorman on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 9:28 am

tigertattie wrote:Where’s the mods? Can we merge this and the other thread? It’s getting difficult to follow especially with folk talking about lions, and tigers and bears, oh my!

Ha ha thumbsup very good...fair enough.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 9:41 am

tigertattie wrote:Where’s the mods? Can we merge this and the other thread? It’s getting difficult to follow especially with folk talking about lions, and tigers and bears, oh my!

Merged

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Post by alive555 on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 9:42 am

if Toonies claim is right that Scotland is the fittest in the wc, how come they are all out of puff in the first 20 mins of every game?
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Post by miaow on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 1:45 pm

As EJ said when facing NZ, to paraphrase, it's not cross country fitness that counts. Doesn't matter how fit you are if you're not powerful enough to get over the gainline.

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Post by lostinwales on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 2:51 pm

alive555 wrote:if Toonies claim is right that Scotland is the fittest in the wc, how come they are all out of puff in the first 20 mins of every game?

It seems like every team is the fittest.

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Post by R!skysports on Wed 25 Sep 2019, 4:59 pm

TJ wrote:
They played the #1 team in the world and lost. That’s all. Give them a chance. They can still make the quarters.

Its not the loss.  Its the nature of the loss thats the problem

It's not just the nature, it is the recurring theme of bad tactics, poor morale, out thought and a coach way way out of his depth that is the problem

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Thu 26 Sep 2019, 11:27 pm

R!skysports wrote:
TJ wrote:
They played the #1 team in the world and lost. That’s all. Give them a chance. They can still make the quarters.

Its not the loss.  Its the nature of the loss thats the problem

It's not just the nature, it is the recurring theme of bad tactics, poor morale, out thought and a coach way way out of his depth that is the problem

Agree. I suspect that given a 4 year cycle Toonie could dismantle the All Blacks.

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Post by BigGee on Mon 30 Sep 2019, 7:29 pm

So, has Toonie at least partially redeemed himself after today's game?

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Mon 30 Sep 2019, 7:40 pm

BigGee wrote:So, has Toonie at least partially redeemed himself after today's game?

No. Today was par. If anything it showed that he got a fair few selections badly wrong against Ireland.

If we take max points from Russia and Japan, and then give the ABs the game of their lives, then I may give him one more 6 Nations.

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Post by NeilyBroon on Mon 30 Sep 2019, 9:59 pm

The fact we were scraping for a BP win against a very poor side was worrying. Nilling them was good so, swings in roundabouts i guess.

Like FES, only QF qualification with a great performance against NZ will save toonie for me as a fan, although i feel the SRUs standards may be lower.
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Post by majesticimperialman on Mon 30 Sep 2019, 10:09 pm

What i found hard to believe was after all most 30 minutes Scotland had only scored 3 points. No disrespect to Samoa but Scotland should of scored more points than that.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Mon 30 Sep 2019, 10:18 pm

So has the 'Fire Schmit' bandwagon gained more of a following yet? Wink

What next for Townsend, back to Glasgow? I felt he was the one to transform Glasgow rugby. Rennie has keep them competitive, but hasn't really been able to move them forward in the last 4 years.

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Post by NeilyBroon on Mon 30 Sep 2019, 10:21 pm

People associate toonie with our best attacking rugby. I think it was more the latter part of verns tenure and therefore spilled over into toonies. We have seen our most toothless attack this year (except against England in 2nd half when the players took over) which looks like our attack back when... oh wait... toonie was attack coach. I think he has managed to get credit (or not receive blame) for the work of other coaches in years gone past but his luck is wearing thin.
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Post by SecretFly on Tue 01 Oct 2019, 12:59 am

It's back to Hire Townsend, is it?

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Post by SecretFly on Tue 01 Oct 2019, 1:03 am

mikey_dragon wrote:So has the 'Fire Schmit' bandwagon gained more of a following yet? Wink

The Schmidt Clock?

Nah. We'll wait until after the Japan rematch on Final day.....

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Post by Taylorman on Tue 01 Oct 2019, 1:27 am

SecretFly wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:So has the 'Fire Schmit' bandwagon gained more of a following yet? Wink

The Schmidt Clock?

Nah.  We'll wait until after the Japan rematch on Final day.....

He's coming home for a well needed rest.
be good having him back, down the local telling the boys about the Night Chicago died...(whatta whatta night it really was! Ye-eees indeed...) thumbsup

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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue 01 Oct 2019, 1:35 am

By home you mean Ireland? Schmidt isnt returning to NZ any more now that his mum has passed.

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Post by Cyril on Tue 01 Oct 2019, 1:45 am

Schmidt will go to France I would think. Probably already in negotiations as we type.

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Post by Pie on Tue 01 Oct 2019, 6:05 am

Japan will beat Scots

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Post by TightHEAD on Tue 01 Oct 2019, 10:57 am

Pie wrote: Japan will beat Scots

Why?
Please explain.
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Post by SecretFly on Tue 01 Oct 2019, 11:03 am

He doth wish it to be so.

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Post by TightHEAD on Tue 01 Oct 2019, 11:05 am

What is it based on?
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Post by bsando on Tue 01 Oct 2019, 11:31 am

My kiwi mate has been sending me the same message every couple of days "Japan are going to beat Scotland". Not gonna lie, I’m definitely
nervous especially after the Japanese dismantling of Ireland.

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Post by NeilyBroon on Tue 01 Oct 2019, 11:35 am

Just respond "they're only warming up to upset NZ"
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Post by bsando on Tue 01 Oct 2019, 11:44 am

Haha will do!

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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 01 Oct 2019, 12:40 pm

Hello my fellow Scottish members, I must say, when I saw this thread go up, I was cringing, fire Townsend, for what ?

What do you all expect from Gregor Townsend ? He is working with vastly inferior tools to his peers in the 6N bar Italy. Scotland has 2 pro clubs, half of what the rest have in the Pro14. That means half the amount of players. The fact that Scotland are comfortably in the top 10 is a massive achievement. The SRU are constantly having to scour the globe for SQ players just to pad out your national team, or bring players in with the potential to represent Scotland.

For my liking, Scotland will win the rest of their games in their group, and you will qualify, and that is about the best that you can expect, if you do lose to Japan, then that will be just an indictment of where you are. Scotland have not one an away game outside of Italy in the 6N for years, this is not Gregor Townsend's fault.

Why would you expect to beat Ireland, Samoa, Japan and Russia away from Scotland when you have not won away from Scotland on a regular basis for years ? Sometimes I think you Scottish build yourself up for disappointment.

You have some decent players, Hogg, Russell, Watson, but your good players would have to work damn hard to get into any of the other nations above them in the rankings.

If you all think firing Townsend is the answer, then fair play to you, carry on. Who else is out there who would take on the Scotland job who is better ?

Reality is, Scotland's place in the rugby world order is about right at 9th best in the world, 5th best of the 6N, with the odd result spattered in here and there, which should always be celebrated.

I think, Scotland are doing good for what they have at their disposal, you have just nilled a country that a lot of people were expecting you to lose to. I expect you to win your next two games, but Japan, at this time, in their own country, will be tough, and if Scotland lose, I will not be surprised, but that does not mean Townsend should lose his job either.

Sorry if I sound a little condescending, I just think a little bit of reality is needed here, also, I apologise in advance if what I have put on here will upset any of our Scottish, or indeed any other nations members. OK

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Post by NeilyBroon on Tue 01 Oct 2019, 1:04 pm

No offence taken!

I think many of us believe that scotland were on a more consistent upwards trajectory under VC before he was usurped by toonie. In the beginning we looked good but again I'd put this more down to VCs work than Toonies.

We played a lot grittier and more disciplined rugby under vc. Now toonie has bedded in we regularly show a lack of edge and composure, especially against tier one. But unless you follow Scotland it's probably harder to see this decline. People point to one offs under toonie while failing to acknowledge the huge amount of dross inbetween.

I think a lot of us were hoping that the SRU hadn't made a mistake in letting VC go for an up and coming scottish coach and that Toonie would prove our doubts wrong as he did with glasgow but i think the last 18 months have confirmed for a lot of us what we already felt.

Appreciate from the outside it feels reactionary hut this has been a growing problem in the Scotland camp and has really come to prevalence recently. I think the scoreline against Samoa flattered to deceive, we looked like we were struggling in attack for large parts of the game against a very poor samoan side.
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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 01 Oct 2019, 1:16 pm

NeilyBroon wrote:I think many of us believe that scotland were on a more consistent upwards trajectory under VC before he was usurped by toonie. In the beginning we looked good but again I'd put this more down to VCs work than Toonies.

We played a lot grittier and more disciplined rugby under vc. Now toonie has bedded in we regularly show a lack of edge and composure, especially against tier one. But unless you follow Scotland it's probably harder to see this decline. People point to one offs under toonie while failing to acknowledge the huge amount of dross inbetween.

I think Scotland have improved in the 6N under Townsend. Not by much mind, but you have gone away from fighting it out with Italy for the spoon, to more mid table, Scotland at home are not a gimmee anymore. Although I am sure there is a stats expert on here who can tell me otherwise.

NeilyBroon wrote:I think a lot of us were hoping that the SRU hadn't made a mistake in letting VC go for an up and coming scottish coach and that Toonie would prove our doubts wrong as he did with glasgow but i think the last 18 months have confirmed for a lot of us what we already felt.

I think it would be unfair to compare his term with Glasgow with his Scotland tenure. Glasgow have had some world class NSQ players in their ranks along with a few Scottish internationals. He does not have that luxury with the national team.

NeilyBroon wrote:Appreciate from the outside it feels reactionary hut this has been a growing problem in the Scotland camp and has really come to prevalence recently. I think the scoreline against Samoa flattered to deceive, we looked like we were struggling in attack for large parts of the game against a very poor samoan side.

I really think you are doing a disservice here, nilling an opponent is not flattering to deceive in my opinion, especially when a lot of people had Samoa down to win.

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Post by Pie on Wed 02 Oct 2019, 5:47 pm

TightHEAD wrote:
Pie wrote: Japan will beat Scots

Why?
Please explain.

Because I Frak said so

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Post by tigertattie on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 9:19 am

LordDowlais wrote:Hello my fellow Scottish members, I must say, when I saw this thread go up, I was cringing, fire Townsend, for what ?

What do you all expect from Gregor Townsend ? He is working with vastly inferior tools to his peers in the 6N bar Italy. Scotland has 2 pro clubs, half of what the rest have in the Pro14. That means half the amount of players. The fact that Scotland are comfortably in the top 10 is a massive achievement. The SRU are constantly having to scour the globe for SQ players just to pad out your national team, or bring players in with the potential to represent Scotland.

For my liking, Scotland will win the rest of their games in their group, and you will qualify, and that is about the best that you can expect, if you do lose to Japan, then that will be just an indictment of where you are. Scotland have not one an away game outside of Italy in the 6N for years, this is not Gregor Townsend's fault.

Why would you expect to beat Ireland, Samoa, Japan and Russia away from Scotland when you have not won away from Scotland on a regular basis for years ? Sometimes I think you Scottish build yourself up for disappointment.

You have some decent players, Hogg, Russell, Watson, but your good players would have to work damn hard to get into any of the other nations above them in the rankings.

If you all think firing Townsend is the answer, then fair play to you, carry on. Who else is out there who would take on the Scotland job who is better ?

Reality is, Scotland's place in the rugby world order is about right at 9th best in the world, 5th best of the 6N, with the odd result spattered in here and there, which should always be celebrated.

I think, Scotland are doing good for what they have at their disposal, you have just nilled a country that a lot of people were expecting you to lose to. I expect you to win your next two games, but Japan, at this time, in their own country, will be tough, and if Scotland lose, I will not be surprised, but that does not mean Townsend should lose his job either.

Sorry if I sound a little condescending, I just think a little bit of reality is needed here, also, I apologise in advance if what I have put on here will upset any of our Scottish, or indeed any other nations members. OK

You've answered your own arguement LD. Japan have even less resources than we do with just one club yet they are making advances.

Also with Edinburgh and Glasgow managing to beat Irish and Welsh teams in the pro 14, why then are we not beating the national sides when we meet?

Scotland should be winning thier home games against Ireland and Wales and putting up a good account when they go to visit these sides.

If we lost to Ireland by 5 points in a well fought match, no one would be firing shots at Toonie as to be fair it is expected to lose to them on neutral soil. We didnt lose by 5 though and we were utter devoid of ideas and tactics.

Scotland should not be so inconsitent. We are playing the odd game well here and there which shows the players have it in them, but then we get spanked the following week which indicates that it is a tactical/game plan issue.
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Post by LordDowlais on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 9:36 am

tigertattie wrote:You've answered your own arguement LD. Japan have even less resources than we do with just one club yet they are making advances.

Don't Japan have their own fully professional league ? I am sure they do, it's where all the older players go to earn their pension.

tigertattie wrote:Also with Edinburgh and Glasgow managing to beat Irish and Welsh teams in the pro 14, why then are we not beating the national sides when we meet?

I have already explained this one, and the facts are, Glasgow especially, have very good NSQ players padding out their teams, a luxury the national side does not have.

tigertattie wrote:Scotland should be winning thier home games against Ireland and Wales and putting up a good account when they go to visit these sides.

Why ? Everybody else outside of Scotland can recognise that Scotland have a few very good players, Hogg, Watson, yet you have some seriously mediocre players, I am sorry, it's just where you are. Every coach in the last decade cannot keep getting it wrong, this is why you only ever beat Wales and Ireland once in a decade.

tigertattie wrote:If we lost to Ireland by 5 points in a well fought match, no one would be firing shots at Toonie as to be fair it is expected to lose to them on neutral soil. We didnt lose by 5 though and we were utter devoid of ideas and tactics.

As I have said above, not every coach you have had in the past 15 years or so could be getting the tactics wrong all the time, perhaps you need to look at the players for a change ?

tigertattie wrote:Scotland should not be so inconsitent. We are playing the odd game well here and there which shows the players have it in them, but then we get spanked the following week which indicates that it is a tactical/game plan issue.

But Scotland are consistent, you can guarantee they will consistently lose all their away games to Wales, Ireland, France, England every year in the 6N. They will put a shift in during the AI's. I'm sorry, but the players do not have it in them.


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Post by EWT Spoons on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 9:53 am

I'm not going to get drawn on the Toonie out stuff, as whilst I don't think he should have been appointed in the first place, I'm not sure changing coaches is the way to go currently.

However, just to the point above, Japan have significantly more resources than Scotland.
They apparently have 122k registered (male and female) players, Scotland have 33k - 38k

They have 16 teams playing in their top league (actually called that) with players in that league earning some of the highest salaries in rugby.

Plus there is only about 10 years difference between when Scotland & Japan started playing the sport.

All in they should be a lot better than they currently and are significantly better resourced than Scotland.


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Post by SecretFly on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 9:58 am

Lord, what do you want them to hoist, a white flag?

Yes, they have only two sides - others have four...but others have more than four, they have 12 and 14.  Yet still the Nations with four decide to push on and try to compete.

Scotland have two elite professional sides to work from so yes, even more difficult to compete, not just in terms of standard of players, but in terms of when injuries occur and finding replacements.

But what's the argument here?  [Give up guys.  Stop thinking you should win games.  Accept your Tier 2 future.]  Is that the argument?  Strange one if it is.  No, you fight, fight, fight.... just like the 'minnow' sides have been doing in this contest.  And I'm certainly not classing Scotland as a minnow side.  But if minnow sides can be hailed for their fight, then certainly Scotland can't be accosted for wanting more from players and coaches.

Meanwhile, for a side with only two elite professional teams in a country with 5 or 6 million ( Italy by far a bigger population) and looking at their usual average place in the rankings from probably 5th to 8th of so, they aren't doing too bad!  Get two more professional teams working (which will have to happen at some point in the future) and they'd have as many "skilled" players operating as Ireland and Wales...easily.

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Post by LordDowlais on Thu 03 Oct 2019, 1:08 pm

SecretFly wrote:Lord, what do you want them to hoist, a white flag?

Never. I just think that some of their fans need a little bit of a reality bite. Sack Townsend ????? What for ? He has improved them in my opinion.

SecretFly wrote:Scotland have two elite professional sides to work from so yes, even more difficult to compete, not just in terms of standard of players, but in terms of when injuries occur and finding replacements.

I know, I have said this above. So you are just repeating what I have said.

SecretFly wrote:But what's the argument here? [Give up guys. Stop thinking you should win games. Accept your Tier 2 future.] Is that the argument? Strange one if it is. No, you fight, fight, fight.... just like the 'minnow' sides have been doing in this contest. And I'm certainly not classing Scotland as a minnow side. But if minnow sides can be hailed for their fight, then certainly Scotland can't be accosted for wanting more from players and coaches.

Who is arguing ? There is no argument. What a strange thing to say. Headscratch

SecretFly wrote:Meanwhile, for a side with only two elite professional teams in a country with 5 or 6 million ( Italy by far a bigger population) and looking at their usual average place in the rankings from probably 5th to 8th of so, they aren't doing too bad! Get two more professional teams working (which will have to happen at some point in the future) and they'd have as many "skilled" players operating as Ireland and Wales...easily.

Again, I know. I have also said this above. Well, except for the extra teams bit.


SF, with all due respect, what is the point of your article ? With what you have written, it would seem you are agreeing with me, but the tone of your article suggests you want to disagree with me.

I cannot fathom this forum sometimes. Laugh

LordDowlais

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