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Post by No9 on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 11:52 pm

Russia qualified by default due to points being docked from Spain and Belgium. Yet, Russian sport is stilled dogged by doping scandals, so much so there are calls for Russia to be banned from all world sporting competitions. ( https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/49805296)

So is there a reasonable argument to kick them out of the RWC.

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Post by No9 on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 11:54 pm

Put my thoughts separately from the OP.

I’m not sure it would gain anything as Russia aren’t really going to progress, but I’m uneasy that this sends the wrong signal.

Guess they only have another 2 weeks before they go home anyway.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 6:23 am

Does any one know the scale of drug testing at this world cup?

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Post by propdavid_london on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 9:23 am

I don't know the scale of drug testing - I am speculating but I would like to think that all teams are tested regularly as part of standard protocol for all RWC participants (by and independent). Obviously the further you get in the competition the more times you are likely to get tested.

Russia particularly does seem to have a lot of issues with this. I am sure I heard somewhere this morning that their athletes were looking at expulsions from the Olympics because of poor practices.

I wouldn't want to kick out a team from the RWC unless there is damming evidence specifically against the Rugby team or set-up. And proof that its systemic and not just one player!

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Post by Rinsure on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 9:28 am

propdavid_london wrote:
Russia particularly does seem to have a lot of issues with this.  I am sure I heard somewhere this morning that their athletes were looking at expulsions from the Olympics because of poor practices.  

There was certainly a piece on the sports desk of the Today programme on R4 this morning about it. They talked all about it, RUSADA and WADA conflicts etc, and then made absolutely no mention of the fact that Russia Rugby are in action today in Japan against Samoa. Typical lack of joined up thinking across all news items at the moment.

I agree, you have to work on the premise of innocent until proved otherwise, even if there is a cloud of suspicion cast by the practises across other sporting disciplines.

I does help that they are unlikely to trouble the later stages of the tournament, mind you.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 9:43 am

WADA are not happy that RUSADA seem to have doctored the files they delivered (late) for review. Russia are currently banned from the IAAF run championships and suggestions are no wthat there will be a push to ban Russia from team championships such as FIFA 2022 in Qatar.

PEDs is an issue across the globe in all sports but the evidence does suggest that in Russia it is State sponsored (echoes of DDR). IAAF currently allow Russian athletes who are independently verified to compete as neutral athletes but even this option may soon be removed.

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Post by SecretFly on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 9:52 am

Well a cycling team from the USA allowed systematic doping to occur on their watch for a number of years...so let's ban the USA from all sporting competition?  
More specifically, let's ban their Rugby team from the World Cup, or at least let's start asking public question about our suspicions.

Major questions have been asked about the Sky cycling team. So let's ban England From the WC.

Let's ban Jamaica from all sports considering the big question marks that were put up about their domestic drug testing procedures as regards sprinters some years ago.

Let's ban SA from the Rugby World Cup too given one of their award winning junior players from last year was found to have taken drugs this year.

The French have had big question marks thrown at their behavior in Top 14 competition, with Toulon a few years back been accused of having a very dubious relationship with a specified pharmacy.

So ban the French too - from all sport.

It seems it's always easier to wave the finger at the big, bad, sinister, horrid, awful Russians.  The Russians are responsible for just about all problems in the world.  Ban them from Earth. Wink

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 9:56 am

The issue is not that some athletes or some institutions have been cheating in Russia (and no-one is calling for Russia to be banned from RWC I think). The issue is that the evidence suggests that the Russian Government is behind a systematic doping program across the entire spectrum of sports.

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Post by SecretFly on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 10:34 am

The problem with the argument that doping is State sanctioned (Allegedly) across all sports in Russia is that in 'Western' Nations the States absolve themselves of the responsibility of overseeing drugs transgressions within specific sports within their territorial boundaries.
"It's really not our responsibility.  There are organisations that police that.  We're not involved."

But a Nation is complicit if it allows any sporting organisations (competitive OR testing) to use their flag, and assume representative status for that Nation, whilst cheating in the form of either PED taking or more modern and less detectable blood manipulation techniques.  

All governments should be held to account for seriously monitoring sporting organisations seeking to represent that Nation.

So in Russia, the State is obviously more hands-on and therefore easier to spot the complicity pathway.  In Western Privatisation realms, the complicity of Government structures in such potential corruption is less clear cut but no less potentially real and sinister.

All Nations know the serious political and financial influence of exerting an image of sporting prowess to the World.  It's never just sport - the 'medal' battles at the Olympics for example is a pure unadulterated and in my mind increasing grotesque exercise in crass world politics.  Cold War stuff never disappeared with the fall of the Wall.  It's still there, and all big Influential Nations are involved in seeking to turn sport to Propaganda.  

So which Rugby team at this World Cup is provably perfectly clean in terms of PED usage over the last four years or do?  Can we know the answer?  And if some method was there that would tell us without error, and without bias, which teams or players dabbled in drugs or blood manipulation techniques over the last four years, would we be shocked by the names perhaps mentioned?  Or would we shrug our shoulders,
and mumble to ourselves, 'well yeah, kinda had my suspicions all along'.
But two things I feel is certain.  There would be a list of names.  And no, they wouldn't all be Russian

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 10:44 am

Oh I fully believe there is an underlying issue in our sport - and Ruby not being a Russian priority much more likely to be in other teams. 

We cannot turn away from the evidence suggesting that the Russian Sports Ministry has been leading a campaign to dope guys up and then falsifying the records. Now this is not a novel or unique occurence. We have seen it with Balco and US Postal in the States and certainly Team SKy have "pushed teh envelope" if not ever breaking rules.

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Post by profitius on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 8:37 pm

No9 wrote:Russia qualified by default due to points being docked from Spain and Belgium. Yet, Russian sport is stilled dogged by doping scandals, so much so there are calls for Russia to be banned from all world sporting competitions. ( https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/49805296)

So is there a reasonable argument to kick them out of the RWC.


There's always been doping in Russian sport. I'd say they're probably cleaner now than ever so its odd that people are calling for them to be banned now. Just as there's a growing politician divide between Russia and the globalists.
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Post by Brendan on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 11:48 pm

Here is my problem with things like this.

China and Russia have had issues with drugs in athletics.  Up until Russia was kicked out of the G7 there was no issues.  Now they are drugging up every sports person while others are clean.

Mr Bolt never failed a test but had many people he trained with fail.  While he was good was he really better then all the kids juicing?  In the US you have college students coming out of nowhere to become the 3rd fastest 100m sprinter and going to the Olympics.  Kenya have had massive issues with testing.

Armstrong showed that the governing bodies do what they want when they want.  Once Armstrong finished up his teammates started to fail tests because they weren't stars anymore.

In 2018 NZ had their drug issues come to light.  And lets not forget SA.

If we forget about the politics we might see there are few sides clean of blame.  Just because Russia did better than you expected doesn't mean they have over performed. I wish people would actually pay attention to T2 results rather then ask politics what we should believe. Fiji have got alot better over the last 6 years should we be looking at them? Or Japan 4 years ago?

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Post by miaow on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 11:53 pm

SecretFly wrote:Well a cycling team from the USA allowed systematic doping to occur on their watch for a number of years...so let's ban the USA from all sporting competition?  
More specifically, let's ban their Rugby team from the World Cup, or at least let's start asking public question about our suspicions.

Major questions have been asked about the Sky cycling team.  So let's ban England From the WC.

Let's ban Jamaica from all sports considering the big question marks that were put up about their domestic drug testing procedures as regards sprinters some years ago.

Let's ban SA from the Rugby World Cup too given one of their award winning junior players from last year was found to have taken drugs this year.

The French have had big question marks thrown at their behavior in Top 14 competition, with Toulon a few years back been accused of having a very dubious relationship with a specified pharmacy.

So ban the French too - from all sport.

It seems it's always easier to wave the finger at the big, bad, sinister, horrid, awful Russians.  The Russians are responsible for just about all problems in the world.  Ban them from Earth. Wink

I like the cut of your jib. Have you thought about becoming a mod*?

*not 606 specific. I have no gripe with the mods on here.

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