England vs USA - match thread

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Post by robbo277 on Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:33 pm

First topic message reminder :

Much changed England team named this morning. Will add USA team as I find it.

ENGLAND:
Marler, Cowan-Dickie, Cole, Launchbury, Kruis, Curry, Ludlam, Vunipola, Heinz, Ford (C), Cokanasiga, Francis, Joseph, McConnochie, Daly
Singleton, Genge, Sinckler, Lawes, Wilson, Youngs, Farrell, Watson

USA:
Ainuu, Taufetee, Lamositele, Landry, Civetta, Lamborn, Quill, Dolan, Davies, Macginty, Iosefo, Lasike, Brache, Scully, Hooley
Fawsitt, Kilifi, Mullen, Peterson, Germishuys, De Hass, Campbell, Teo


Last edited by robbo277 on Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:47 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by The Oracle on Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:20 am

TightHEAD wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Farrell got away with 2 red card offences within the space of 3 weeks

How can you get away with a red card when it wasn't one, surely the TMOs and Refs would have given a red had it been one! Erm


Really?! Have you not been watching this World Cup so far?!
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Post by TightHEAD on Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:21 am

The Oracle wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Farrell got away with 2 red card offences within the space of 3 weeks

How can you get away with a red card when it wasn't one, surely the TMOs and Refs would have given a red had it been one! Erm


Really?!  Have you not been watching this World Cup so far?!

So Farrell has done two red card offences at the RWC now!

Blimey I must have blinked.
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Post by Heaf on Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:22 am

LondonTiger wrote:
Heaf wrote:
No9 wrote:I think, maybe, there's a cross thread here... 

I was responding to the "why they play on after the injury".. I know think Heaf you where on about why England played on rather than killing the game.. If so, sorry.. got different posts confused.. 

So I retract..

Ah OK - yes I was questioning the thinking of the team to play on after 80 mins for no real gain whilst risking further incidents that could affect matches to come ...

all friends again?

thumbsup

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:23 am

TightHEAD wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Farrell got away with 2 red card offences within the space of 3 weeks

How can you get away with a red card when it wasn't one, surely the TMOs and Refs would have given a red had it been one! Erm

Well surely Hodge got away with one?

The citing officer back in the autumn did not choose to cite Farrell, World Rugby said that may have been an error. I struggle to see those challenges as red cards, but do feel Farrell was lucky not to see yellow. As has been discussed many times Gardner abdicated all responsibility in the game v Springboks allowing Snyman to also get away with one. While there was some mitigation for the Saffer as Kruis dipped slightly seeing the challenge coming he still got a shoulder charge to the head. In that game Farrell hit Snyman with a shoulder charge to the upper chest.

That Farrell has chosen to work hard on changing his technique shows he is worried about the potential ramifications. The opponent only has to dip a few centimetres and he would be getting a straight red.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:25 am

TightHEAD wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Farrell got away with 2 red card offences within the space of 3 weeks

How can you get away with a red card when it wasn't one, surely the TMOs and Refs would have given a red had it been one! Erm


Really?!  Have you not been watching this World Cup so far?!

So Farrell has done two red card offences at the RWC now!

Blimey I must have blinked.

See what I said above - Hodge got away with a red card offence so refs do miss them. Oracle was not saying Farrell shoudl have seen red in the WC, but that refs and TMOs get things wrong.

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Post by Scottrf on Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:25 am

Do we really have to carry on the Farrell thing for multiple pages?

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Post by The Oracle on Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:27 am

TightHEAD wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Farrell got away with 2 red card offences within the space of 3 weeks

How can you get away with a red card when it wasn't one, surely the TMOs and Refs would have given a red had it been one! Erm


Really?!  Have you not been watching this World Cup so far?!

So Farrell has done two red card offences at the RWC now!

Blimey I must have blinked.


No, no, no. Dear me. I was merely pointing our your comment that TMOs and refs would give a red card if it was one. We've seen a number of those missed this word cup already! That was my only point, that TMOs and refs miss stuff all the time. ALL the time! It's what we discuss on these boards ad nauseum.
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Post by No9 on Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:29 am

LondonTiger wrote:
Heaf wrote:
No9 wrote:I think, maybe, there's a cross thread here... 

I was responding to the "why they play on after the injury".. I know think Heaf you where on about why England played on rather than killing the game.. If so, sorry.. got different posts confused.. 

So I retract..

Ah OK - yes I was questioning the thinking of the team to play on after 80 mins for no real gain whilst risking further incidents that could affect matches to come ...

all friends again?

Yes... my bad, and extend the apology to others who pulled me up on this.. 

I was posting on another Rugby forum in parallel, and got posts (windows) mixed up. On that forum, an England fan was debating the game continuing after the injury as it was impossible for USA to come back or even get a LBP. I simply mxed threads/posts trying to multi-task..

On this forum I take it all back.

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Post by TightHEAD on Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:29 am

Scottrf wrote:Do we really have to carry on the Farrell thing for multiple pages?

Agreed its rather boring, we should be talking about a solid performance (minus last play) that England just produced with mostly their B team. thumbsup
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Post by The Oracle on Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:33 am

TightHEAD wrote:
Scottrf wrote:Do we really have to carry on the Farrell thing for multiple pages?

Agreed its rather boring, we should be talking about a solid performance (minus last play) that England just produced with mostly their B team. thumbsup


Yes, time to move on.

I was going to ask actually...... how many of those would you consider to be 'first choice'  for England?  Was it mostly B team with a smattering of A team or a 50/50 mix?  I know it's a matter of opinion sometimes who you consider 1st choice compared to who Eddie thinks.  Promising signs though, and evidence of strength in depth.
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Post by No9 on Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:34 am

LondonTiger wrote:
No9 wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:So, will Francis be cited?

No


Dallaglio disagrees, thinks he will be cited.

Thought the purpose of citing was to correct wrong or missed foul play. If a suitable decision was taken on field (in this case it was with RED), then there is nothing to cite for.

Um, Francis is an England player.
Doh .. I was discussing Quill's red (on another forum) and screwed up here as well.... Sorry.. 

Note to myself.... stop posting on multiple forums at the same time. Erm

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:39 am

The Oracle wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:
Scottrf wrote:Do we really have to carry on the Farrell thing for multiple pages?

Agreed its rather boring, we should be talking about a solid performance (minus last play) that England just produced with mostly their B team. thumbsup


Yes, time to move on.

I was going to ask actually...... how many of those would you consider to be 'first choice'  for England?  Was it mostly B team with a smattering of A team or a 50/50 mix?  I know it's a matter of opinion sometimes who you consider 1st choice compared to who Eddie thinks.  Promising signs though, and evidence of strength in depth.

If everyone is fit, I am starting to think that the full strength team in Eddie's eyes is:

Daly
Nowell
Manu
Farrell
Ford
Youngs
Billy
Underhill
Curry
Kruis
Itoje
Sinckler
George
Mako

In which case five started today. 

However you could easily argue Watson over Nowell, Slade at 13 with Manu and Farrell moving in 1, Wilson at 6 with Curry moving to 7. Lawes at lock or 6. Plus I liked how the props went today. Marler and Cole really put their opponents through the wringer, then Genge and Sinckler capitalised.

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Post by BamBam on Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:39 am

The Oracle wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:
Scottrf wrote:Do we really have to carry on the Farrell thing for multiple pages?

Agreed its rather boring, we should be talking about a solid performance (minus last play) that England just produced with mostly their B team. thumbsup


Yes, time to move on.

I was going to ask actually...... how many of those would you consider to be 'first choice'  for England?  Was it mostly B team with a smattering of A team or a 50/50 mix?  I know it's a matter of opinion sometimes who you consider 1st choice compared to who Eddie thinks.  Promising signs though, and evidence of strength in depth.

Of the starting XV, Daly, Curry, Billy, Marler would be in the starting A team with the current injuries. Ford and JJ would be in the 23 

Rest are probably bench at best in the big games

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Post by BamBam on Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:44 am

I still think Eddie wants to go back to the Farrell / Manu / Slade midfield in the big games, with Ford as his option to open it up later on, but as Slade continues to struggle with injury Ford / JJ could easily end up being starters

Also think Lawes is a starter at the moment, big fan of Kruis set piece but Lawes just looks so good every time he gets on the field

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:48 am

I am a huge fan of Lawes and I woudl start him. However I just feel that Eddie will opt to use him from the bench.

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:54 am

The Oracle wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Farrell got away with 2 red card offences within the space of 3 weeks

How can you get away with a red card when it wasn't one, surely the TMOs and Refs would have given a red had it been one! Erm


Really?!  Have you not been watching this World Cup so far?!

So Farrell has done two red card offences at the RWC now!

Blimey I must have blinked.


No, no, no.  Dear me.  I was merely pointing our your comment that TMOs and refs would give a red card if it was one.  We've seen a number of those missed this word cup already!  That was my only point, that TMOs and refs miss stuff all the time. ALL the time!  It's what we discuss on these boards ad nauseum.  


Well they didnt miss this one so clearly its not all the time.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:57 am

Goose,

You know that "all the time" is a hyperbolic statement meaning regularly, and not too be taken literally as meaning 100% of the time.

warning

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:03 am

Ok tramp. Some people would have just bitten the bullet but you want to double down and prove you don't know what you're talking about!

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:18 am

LondonTiger wrote:Goose,

You know that "all the time" is a hyperbolic statement meaning regularly, and not too be taken literally as meaning 100% of the time.

warning

Not always

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:24 am

Realistically couldn't have gone much better for england so far this world cup.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:26 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ok tramp. Some people would have just bitten the bullet but you want to double down and prove you don't know what you're talking about!

I had to go some way back to what you are referring to. In the end it depends on your definition of high. The challenges that Farrell made in the Autumn that so upset people did appear to be leading with the shoulder, no attempt to wrap the arms and contact was made high on the player BUT did not make contact with the head. All it would have taken was a slight dip and a tackle that was high on the player becomes contact with the head.

So, due to a bot of luck, following the protocol that tackle now should be a penalty and a Yellow Card. Player dips slightly and there is insufficient mitigation against the red card.


All in all I do feel that the argument is about semantics - and the allegation of not knowing what he is talking about is unfair. (Please note the colour of this post and therefore my role in making it)

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Post by bluestonevedder on Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:27 am

Ben Youngs passing is still absolutely shocking. Neither the long range or short range passes were going where they needed to. Even his pop passes were too low or too high. He really needs to sort it out. It sucks all the momentum out of the attack and leads to increased knock-ons.

I'd have Heinz as the starter.

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Post by TightHEAD on Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:27 am

Youngs was poor, always is as a sub.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:31 am

That's fair to a point LT. But he along with and mikey have been invited to not look silly and haven't taken the opportunity. Still I'll leave it there.


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:33 am

Heinz was pretty poor in the 1st 10 min but looked a lot better after that. Perhaps a few nerves. Youngs still playing his way back to form but he needs to hurry up.

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Post by TightHEAD on Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:38 am

If Youngs was a Wuzz, Bears, Bath, Wasps, Saints, Chiefs, Quins, Sale, Falcons or Glaws Player he would be no where near the England set up.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:43 am

I think his form is a country mile behind spencer. Still amazed he didn't make it.

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Post by Exiledinborders on Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:54 am

Respect to Farrell. When he was hit he got up immediately. What a contrast to Sexton.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:01 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Heinz was pretty poor in the 1st 10 min but looked a lot better after that. Perhaps a few nerves. Youngs still playing his way back to form but he needs to hurry up.

TBH, I thought Heinz was far too slow for the entire first half. 

There was poor passing from everyone. Heinz, Youngs, Ford, Joseph, Daly & Farrell all threw some shockers.

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Post by TightHEAD on Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:02 am

LondonTiger wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Heinz was pretty poor in the 1st 10 min but looked a lot better after that. Perhaps a few nerves. Youngs still playing his way back to form but he needs to hurry up.

TBH, I thought Heinz was far too slow for the entire first half. 

There was poor passing from everyone. Heinz, Youngs, Ford, Joseph, Daly & Farrell all threw some shockers.

Baby oil?????
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Post by LondonTiger on Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:02 am

Exiledinborders wrote:Respect to Farrell. When he was hit he got up immediately. What a contrast to Sexton.

Arguably though he got up quickly to try and thump the Yank 7.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:03 am

TightHEAD wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Heinz was pretty poor in the 1st 10 min but looked a lot better after that. Perhaps a few nerves. Youngs still playing his way back to form but he needs to hurry up.

TBH, I thought Heinz was far too slow for the entire first half. 

There was poor passing from everyone. Heinz, Youngs, Ford, Joseph, Daly & Farrell all threw some shockers.

Baby oil?????

Apparently the humidity inside the stadium was so high that Ugo dropped the mic his hands were so wet.

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Post by TightHEAD on Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:04 am

Nice, Mind you he always dropped the ball too.
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Post by LondonTiger on Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:05 am

TightHEAD wrote:Nice, Mind you he always dropped the ball too.

True.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:10 am

LondonTiger wrote:Apparently the humidity inside the stadium was so high that Ugo dropped the mic his hands were so wet.
He was probably carrying it in the wrong hand.


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Post by LondonTiger on Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:12 am

Even back in 2009, how was that not a high tackle?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:18 am

My mind went to his full back appearance for England.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:20 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:My mind went to his full back appearance for England.

Same here. Not the best decision Johnson ever made.

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Post by robbo277 on Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:26 am

I thought Heinz was sloppy but Youngs wasn't great when he came on either. I'd definitely start Youngs against Argentina, hes the experienced guy and if he can get back to his best he's a potent weapon. I wouldn't be afraid of starting Heinz against France if he had a shocker.

I'd agree, I think to not have Spencer is an odd call but it's made now.

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Post by hugehandoff on Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:56 am

BamBam wrote:I predicted 44-6 in the prediction game, so I almost smiled when that try went in



minus 10 points for being unpatriotic Laugh

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Post by Exiledinborders on Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:07 am

LondonTiger wrote:
Exiledinborders wrote:Respect to Farrell. When he was hit he got up immediately. What a contrast to Sexton.

Arguably though he got up quickly to try and thump the Yank 7.
In the best traditions of rugby I feel. Better than lying ‘injured’ until your opponent is carded then having a miraculous recovery which seems to be the way of some players.

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Post by robbo277 on Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:37 am

In a similar vein, sometimes at amateur level we get a player down and the opposition call "head" so the ref stops the game and potentially sniffs out one of our attacks. Then the player doesnt go off for an HIA or, as we don't have the medical staff for an accurate HIA, straight removal from the game. Sometimes the player will even get treatment on their knee.

My pet hate about amateur rugby.

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Post by miaow on Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:08 am

robbo277 wrote:I don't know why we didn't kick it out. What's left to prove at 45-0? Can't impact the result, could have only got injured or sent off.

I assume it's a mentality thing. PMA and all that. Keep going, keep playing. Don't worry about the clock, don't worry about the scoreline, play the game as it comes.

Get out of the NH mentality of control and manipulation and pressure and living off mistakes, EJ has tried to fire up a instinctive, attacking ferocity in England that means they want to enjoy the competition, keep going, keep striving.

There was the 50 point threshold to cross. There was another try to score. Crucially, some of those boys out there will have likely player their last game for England at the RWC.

I understand the mentality and methodology but, as is fairly typical, if it doesn't come naturally, or if you're trying to overplay and now pretend it's natural (Scotland...), it can come back to bite you, as it did for England.

The other point, of course, is that it's good prep for later in the tournament for those who will be playing. Getting a try after 80 minutes is v. different to 8 minutes. Eng love fast starts, here was a chance to have an emphatic finish when they're shattered, where systems are loose, and it's down to skills and clear heads under fatigue to get them over the line.

Think they probably failed that test, if that's what playing on after the 80 was about.

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Post by miaow on Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:28 am

Just a quick question on the Farrell tackle. This article makes the mistake that the hsoulder charge bloodied Farrell.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/49844461

He went down in the lead up to the Mconachie/Mconaughie...(sp) try, staying down clearly bleeding, getting up, feeding Joseph, who got the try assist.

What was it that led to him being cut? Was it illegal?

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:39 am

BamBam wrote:I still think Eddie wants to go back to the Farrell / Manu / Slade midfield in the big games, with Ford as his option to open it up later on, but as Slade continues to struggle with injury Ford / JJ could easily end up being starters

I think that was the intention. Farrell's form towards the end of the season was mediocre and his warm up game performances were also underwhelming. Ford on the other hand almost single handedly saved Tigers and has then looked decent, refinding his international form. Even with Slade around I think Eddie might go back to the Ford/Farrell partnership he knows works and then use Slade off the bench if he wants to change how we attack. Ford knowing the games of Youngs, Farrell and Manu inside out helps give him automatic midfield solidarity.

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Post by alanmackie6 on Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:44 am

With due respect these big wins over minnows mean little,yes there will always be
surprises like the Urugauy result.BUT the main event starts next week,France or
Argentina are real threats still.
In Irelands group Japan could be a real threat to Scotland,it will be a huge shock
if SA and Nz don`t make QF`s.
Wales /Australia are the biggest match that I can see,on all Known form NZ will
reach at least SF,meet either these sides then its the Final. laughing laughing laughing

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Post by majesticimperialman on Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:44 am

Great win for England, but i cannot understand why they did not kick the ball out and keep usa scoreless. was over confidence, did they ( England) thought they could get another try at the death? It just baffles me the game was won why give them a chance at all?

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Post by The Oracle on Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:47 am

alanmackie6 wrote:With due respect these big wins over minnows mean little,yes there will always be
surprises like the Urugauy result.BUT the main event starts next week,France or
Argentina are real threats still.
In Irelands group Japan could be a real threat to Scotland,it will be a huge shock
if SA and Nz don`t make QF`s.
Wales /Australia are the biggest match that I can see,on all Known form NZ will
reach at least SF,meet either these sides then its the Final. laughing laughing laughing


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Post by Taylorman on Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:56 am

majesticimperialman wrote:Great win for England, but i cannot understand why they did not kick the ball out and keep usa scoreless. was over confidence, did they ( England) thought they could get another try at the death? It just baffles me the game was won why give them a chance at all?

'much' bigger things to worry about... thumbsup

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Post by alanmackie6 on Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:43 am

Oracle my opinion is as valid as any here including yours,i know my Rugby especially
NZ`s.Of Course cards can change games especially if Red,but again the crap about
the Haka.It was abandoned on the 1971-2 UK tour BUT was reinstated by public request
on the Lions tour by the Lions.

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