Rugby World Cup and delayed games.

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Post by majesticimperialman on Sun 29 Sep 2019, 9:26 pm

First topic message reminder :

Can any one recall a time in the history of the Rugby World Cup when a schedule game had to be called off, and rescheduled and what effect  did that rescheduled game have on the world cup? They say the weather might turn nasty before the next round gets under way. 




Discuss.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 08 Oct 2019, 3:32 pm

I'd rather englands match be cancelled than have to play australia or wales with less rest period. Also then the added bonus of finishing top.

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Post by Afro on Tue 08 Oct 2019, 3:35 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Hence my comment about playing in empty stadiums. If you have to go to the effort of re-arranging due to a typhoon, one assumes there will be no supporters

But the teams and officials would still need to travel. If its not safe enough for supporters, then its not safe enough for the teams and officials to travel either
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Post by BamBam on Tue 08 Oct 2019, 3:37 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd rather englands match be cancelled than have to play australia or wales with less rest period. Also then the added bonus of finishing top.

Don't think we would have less rest would we? Would just be a cancelled match if it can't be played on Saturday, we finish top then play whoever finishes 2nd

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 08 Oct 2019, 3:38 pm

BamBam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd rather englands match be cancelled than have to play australia or wales with less rest period. Also then the added bonus of finishing top.

Don't think we would have less rest would we? Would just be a cancelled match if it can't be played on Saturday, we finish top then play whoever finishes 2nd

Aye, as pool games are not re-arranged we would just move into the 1/4 final.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 08 Oct 2019, 3:39 pm

Ah. Sorry only skim read the rules in regards to rearrangement. Was reading the delayed part.

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Post by Irish Londoner on Tue 08 Oct 2019, 3:43 pm

If Ireland-Samoa goes ahead but Japan-Scotland is cancelled does that mean that Japan top the group?
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Post by BamBam on Tue 08 Oct 2019, 3:45 pm

If head to head takes priority over points difference then yes!

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Post by Afro on Tue 08 Oct 2019, 3:45 pm

BamBam wrote:If head to head takes priority over points difference then yes!

Which it does
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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 08 Oct 2019, 3:47 pm

Afro wrote:
BamBam wrote:If head to head takes priority over points difference then yes!

Which it does

If two teams are equal then head to head takes priority.
If three teams are equal points difference takes priority to find Pool Winner, with head to head then resuming priority to find runner up.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Tue 08 Oct 2019, 6:21 pm

Sounds like there is a lot more behind-the-scenes discussion about at least trying to hold the Japan-Scotland game at another venue. If the typhoon is on the expected collision course, then it's hard to see how games could go ahead as planned. That's not what the tournament rules say should happen but it seems like everyone has looked at the consequences, and not enjoyed the prospect.

Re-arranging two 70,000 strong matches would be a nightmare, so the England-France game might just be a write-off.


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Post by miaow on Tue 08 Oct 2019, 6:51 pm

Would be amazed if any game gets cancelled and not re-arranged. Setting myself up for a fall, but I just can't see it happening.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Tue 08 Oct 2019, 7:43 pm

miaow wrote:Would be amazed if any game gets cancelled and not re-arranged. Setting myself up for a fall, but I just can't see it happening.

It's the daunting logistics.

Sending England and France to play in Oita might not be so bad for the teams because they will play their quarter finals there. That is the only potential positive.

This typhoon will get weaker before it hits but it will be one of the biggest seen. The last typhoon that hit a few weeks ago killed people, damaged infrastructure, caused mass power outages in Chiba which last for three weeks in some areas, and disrupted all forms of transport. If we see anything like that around Tokyo and Yokohama, then expending energy and resources re-arranging a sporting event might look unseemly.

Here's hoping it's not anything on that scale but it can still be an uncomfortable few days. I was talking with one group over from England who said they still planned to go to Yokohama if the match is cancelled, because some RFU guys have arranged an after-match function there. I had to tell them the trains don't run when a typhoon hits, and that event won't be taking place. I think some people are under the impression a typhoon is just stormy weather. Typhoon is the name for a hurricane in the Pacific. There's a hurricane on the way. If the matches are off, we aren't all going to be going out sightseeing and a fun night on the town instead. The best advice for everyone will be to buy food and drink and stay shut up safely inside.

The transport disruption is the main concern because you have to decide if you have the scope to get people to a new venue or just abandon all hope of doing that. Hard to see how you can get thousands of fans 500 miles from Tokyo to Oita. Even harder to imagine how they'll get back, given that flights and trains to the capital could well be off-line for Saturday and Sunday. When you have a typhoon on the way, you want to cut down on all unnecessary travel.


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Post by miaow on Tue 08 Oct 2019, 8:25 pm

I understand all of that, but I'll stick by what I say that WR will do everything possible to avoid cancelling a game outright as it would literally devalue the result of the tournament.

You just have to deal with it from a hierarchical point of view. What's the most important thing? That a competitive match is played. Fans, extraneous media, all of that - it's a distant priority in the grand scheme of things. You can delay a game by a day with minimal impact to players, both prep and post-game. I dunno. Just cannot see it happening.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 1:31 am

New update has the typhoon hitting the Tokyo and Yokohama areas around mid-day on Saturday. One of the major railway operators, JR East, is looking at suspending services on Saturday and Sunday. If they do that, the other operators will follow suit, and it won't be possible for most people to get to the stadium.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 6:48 am

Japanese press saying any rescheduled games would take place in venues closed to spectators.

Final decision is imminent.


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Post by maestegmafia on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 7:50 am

Rugby Fan wrote:Japanese press saying any rescheduled games would take place in venues closed to spectators.

Final decision is imminent.


A sensible decision if it can be arranged. Might mean games being played next week I guess.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 9:03 am

Having made and published rules for the tournament, I will not be happy if they change them before the pool stages end. Probably in a minority of one, but there we go.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 9:09 am

As long it doesn't disadvantage teams I'm ok with some leeway shown. Obviously I wouldn't like to see france and England played on monday if they are then expected to play australia and wales in any combo the following Saturday if they've had more rest. Nice versa I'd be more than happy for our game to be cancelled and then face a knackered team.

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Post by Gooseberry on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 9:13 am

Cant they just close the roof for the Wales game Whistle

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Post by The Oracle on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 9:49 am

Gooseberry wrote:Cant they just close the roof for the Wales game Whistle


Not sure if you’re being sarcastic, but there are a few stadia with roofs at this World Cup! Not sure if the stadium for Wales v Fiji is one of them though.
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Post by LordDowlais on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 10:06 am

It's just been announced on the news that they expect Sundays games to be spared by the weather, the Typhoon has changed it's course and will now hit mainland Japan on Saturday afternoon.

“It’s got sustained wind speeds of 120mph gusting up to 170mph, it actually strengthened a little bit first thing this morning.

“Japan is used to typhoons hitting at this time of year but this one is quite remarkable because even it’s going to weaken it will still be classified as a very strong typhoon as it makes landfall.

“We’re expecting at this moment landfall will be around the Tokyo area on Saturday lunchtime in the UK so over there probably late afternoon into the evening so that’s going to coincide exactly with the England France match, with strong winds and flodding rains just ahead of that as well.

“It’s going to be an atrocious day on Saturday and I can’t imagine the authorities will want anyone travelling or going anywhere, being out and about in those conditions.

“The typhoon will clear away on Saturday so what happens to the Scotland Japan match on Sunday may well depend on how much damage and how much rainfall there may have been from Saturday so just the aftermath of the typhoon as it moves through.”



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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 10:09 am

Who are those quotes from please LD?

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Post by LordDowlais on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 10:11 am

LondonTiger wrote:Who are those quotes from please LD?

BBC meteorologist Simon King. OK

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 10:17 am

Thanks.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 10:30 am

From previous experience, running major events just after a typhoon depends very heavily on whether the railway companies start running trains, as well as issues of fallen trees, flooding and infrastructure damage.

Typhoon Faxai (the 15th this year) caused a lot of casualties and damage in Chiba, and the railway companies were wildly optimistic about how quickly they could restore services. It may be they prefer to play it safe with announcements this weekend, which could mean no trains even if the conditions are playable on Sunday.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 10:35 am

LondonTiger wrote:Who are those quotes from please LD?

WOL.

Yahoo

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Post by Rugby Fan on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 1:10 pm

Telegraph claims in a scoop the England game will be played in Oita, and the teams have been told.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-world-cup/2019/10/09/exclusive-englands-rugby-world-cup-2019-clash-france-moved-oita/

In a dramatic turn of events as Super Typhoon Hagibis heads straight towards landfall in Tokyo on Saturday, Rugby World Cup has taken the unprecedented step of re-locating England’s final Pool C game against France in Yokohama on Saturday to Oita 600 miles to the south on Kyushu.

It is probable that the game will be played behind closed doors so as to ensure the safety of spectators who might try to travel to the game.

Both teams were informed of the contingency plans on Wednesday and were taking steps to arrange transportation on Thursday.

The decision goes against the original tournament rules whereby any pool game that was to be affected by extreme adverse weather conditions would be cancelled rather than postponed with two points awarded to each side.

However with the final standings in the pool not yet assured organisers were determined to try and maintain the integrity of competition by staging the game.



The most recent meteorological updates show that the ‘violent category’ typhoon would hit Yokohama almost at kick-off time and with the certainty that the entire transport network round Tokyo would be shut down RWC 2019 had no option but to seek alternatives.

It is likely too that the Japan v Scotland game on Sunday will also be impacted and probably relocated.


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 1:15 pm

Would england be within their rights to simply say no, we'll play to the rules of cancelled games?

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 1:16 pm

If the match takes place on teh same day then surely it is at worse delayed? Rules said nothing about prohibiting relocation.

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Post by BigGee on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 1:29 pm

There are some fairly serious rumours doing the rounds that the England and the Scotland game are both going to be cancelled!

That would be Scotland out, which barely seems believable!

I can't believe that Japan would feel comfortable going through like that either

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Post by Rugby Fan on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 1:41 pm

Telegraph has retracted that scoop.

That is very poor reporting

Rich Freeman says the press conference will be at midday JST, which is 4:00am in the UK.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 2:00 pm

If a single game is cancelled then the whole tournament will be an unmitigated disaster, it simply is not good enough.

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Post by robbo277 on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 2:30 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Would england be within their rights to simply say no, we'll play to the rules of cancelled games?

Simply, no. It would be a forfeited game and England would be kicked out the tournament.

I'm sure if World Rugby tried to relocate it and England had a serious objection they could appeal, but part of the job World Rugby is currently doing is looking at logistical issues. If they deem it "fair", then the game will need to be played.

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Post by Irish Londoner on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 2:35 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Would england be within their rights to simply say no, we'll play to the rules of cancelled games?

Not saying it's right but they should be able to - after all there's been a lot of stuff about the teams should have known about the changes to the tackling laws before the RWC so why adhere to those but not these rules - also set before the RWC?

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 2:41 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Would england be within their rights to simply say no, we'll play to the rules of cancelled games?

Not saying it's right but they should be able to - after all there's been a lot of stuff about the teams should have known about the changes to the tackling laws before the RWC so why adhere to those but not these rules - also set before the RWC?

Are but one is a law the other a rule Very Happy

I am still unclear as to whether relocating a match would be against the rules of the tournament. Postponing a pool game to another day would however break the rules.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 2:44 pm

I think England and France might have taken Oita if it was played on Saturday. There would have been less enthusiasm for moving the match to a later date, leaving less recovery time before the Quarter Final

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 2:58 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:I think England and France might have taken Oita if it was played on Saturday. There would have been less enthusiasm for moving the match to a later date, leaving less recovery time before the Quarter Final

Was moving it to a different day discussed?

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Post by BigGee on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 2:58 pm

It is hard to see how any teams could or would object to a move to snother venue or a postponement.

It is against the spirit of the game and the competition and i don't think any team would wish to be advantaged like that.

I think those rules wete written more in mind of an immediate event, a bit like the freak rain storm in SA years ago that almost caused the France v SA semi final to be cancelled, though in the end they did play it on what would be considered today as an unsafe pitch (it was several inches under water in places)

This is a slightly different situation where the westher is predictable to a point and some kind of mitigation could potentially be put in place.

These are very difficult calls though, with genuine safety considerations to be allowed for.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 3:01 pm

BigGee wrote:It is hard to see how any teams could or would object to a move to snother venue or a postponement.

It is against the spirit of the game and the competition and i don't think any team would wish to be advantaged like that.

The reason pool games could not be postponed to another day was to stop teams being disadvantaged with reduced recovery times etc. Of course I doubt they had envisaged the situation that Scotland arguably face. Proper announcement tomorrow apparently.

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Post by Irish Londoner on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 3:03 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Would england be within their rights to simply say no, we'll play to the rules of cancelled games?

Not saying it's right but they should be able to - after all there's been a lot of stuff about the teams should have known about the changes to the tackling laws before the RWC so why adhere to those but not these rules - also set before the RWC?

Are but one is a law the other a rule Very Happy

I am still unclear as to whether relocating a match would be against the rules of the tournament. Postponing a pool game to another day would however break the rules.

So you can't break the law but you can break the rules ! That's the sort of argument that would keep a barrister in new Porsches for a few years ! Very Happy

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Post by Brendan on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 6:08 pm

Anyone who followed the 2002 soccer WC wouldn't be surprised if the decision was made to cancel the Japan Scotland game. Once the semis happened no one would care about it.

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Post by miaow on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 6:16 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Would england be within their rights to simply say no, we'll play to the rules of cancelled games?

Interesting question. Presumably no if WR officially rearranges the game, but then yes, if push came to shove, and they put their foot down early enough. But that's just supposition.

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Post by majesticimperialman on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 7:56 pm

Just seen that England v France game as been called off due to typhoon Hagiss hitting the area. First time in 32 years a game as been called off.

Who the hell decided to host a Rugby World Cup in typhoon season?

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Post by westisbest on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 8:37 pm

I read they are making a decision at 4am.

I suppose if it does get called off, it won’t affect the table, whereas if japan Scotland would.

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Post by EnglishReign on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 9:03 pm

Maybe a daft suggestion but if there's any possibility of a cancellation (like there was with 4 days to go still), can't a decision to move the game to a safe location happen there and then? Feel like it's been on the cards for a while yet a last minute decision will be made.

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Post by miaow on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 9:20 pm

If there's 1 game you want called off for the sake of the other being player, it's that game. Both are through. The game itself is seen as a disruption to the QFs. There's minor benefit to the team not playing, and as the decision will likely go to the wire, they won't get that much more prep time eiher way.

If the Japan Scotland game is called off, then there are issues. If you can only protect/rearrange one, its that one.

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Post by tigertattie on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 9:33 pm

It’s rock and a hard place.

If they cancel the Japan vs Scotland game and Scotland go out it would be terrible for rugby.

If they play the game in a closed stadium with no fans to cheer on Japan and they go out it would be terrible for rugby.

If they cancel the England France game and they get a weeks rest then put Oz and wales out the World Cup then it would be terrible for rugby.

Who’d be an organiser!!!
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Post by miaow on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 9:39 pm

Yeah, when you put it like that...no winners here. Games have to go ahead.

Unfortunately it does now make it increasingly unlikely Japan will host a RWC again. At least at this time of year, let's see what happens with the global season. My bet would be France-Australia-USA+Canada-South Africa-Ireland/Scotland.

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Post by EnglishReign on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 10:17 pm

I agree with those points, I’d argue that England would be massively undercooked for a QF if the game is cancelled.

So in the same vein, if it’s cancelled and Aus batter an underperforming England, it would be terrible for rugby.

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Post by miaow on Thu 10 Oct 2019, 12:43 am

Well, it's off: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/49995604

I take it all back. Amazed it's come to this tbh, but there we go. Really, really hurts the tournament unfortunately - France will have a nice long rest, while Wales, who are battered and bruised from Fiji, have another game to play before facing them.

Let's just hope the Scotland game goes ahead otherwise there are major, major questions. This could just about get lost in the hype once the rugby starts again, but if Scotland are knocked out by default? That's harder to ignore.

miaow

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