Japan V Scotland (if it's on)

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Post by RDW on Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:39 pm

First topic message reminder :

MATCH 40
SUNDAY 13 OCTOBER
KICK OFF (UK TIME)
11:45

SCOTLAND
WORLD RANKING 9TH

Referee: Ben O'Keeffe
International Stadium Yokohama, Kanagawa Prefecture, Yokohama City

(Or not at all)

Is this Schrodinger's game in that it can be considered both on and cancelled at the same time? I'm sure Jimbo will correct me in my interpretation....


Last edited by RDW on Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:45 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by bsando on Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:34 pm

Kind of tough though SecretFly, Typhoons are super aggressive storms that diminish very quickly once they pass through. I'd expect a Sunday morning decision dependent on damage incurred.

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Post by Pal Joey on Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:40 pm

Yeah, they pioneered the JIT methodology in manufacturing.
I'm assuming it's the same for making the final decision whether to go ahead or not.
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Post by jimbopip on Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:42 pm

bsando wrote:Wilson ahead of Barclay?? No Taylor? No Berghan? Otherwise looks okay, shame about Maitland, didn't realise he had a niggle.

Barclay played 80 minutes against Russia, Japan will play a fairly high tempo game. At his age he needs more than four days between Tests. That's not really a surprise.
Taylor seemingly injured a thumb (one of his own) against Russia.
As for Berghan; Dell should be well rested, Shrek is obviously thriving on the katsu chicken curry and chips and deserves his place on the bench, Ragnar offers more around the park in the last 20. Actually all of the bench, with the notable exception of Shrek, will bring pace when they come on.

Secretfly, the announcement is due to be made at midday local time, four am here. This should allow them to see how things are in Tokyo.

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Post by RDW on Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:43 pm

Just noticed Maitland is injured - that's a blow.

Seymour hasn't looked himself for a long time.

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Post by tigertattie on Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:44 pm

Oh great, I can see it now

Gets out tea leaves...............

Japan, being a nation of honourable people, have insisted that WR move the Japan vs Scotland match to ensure this is played.

In the greatest match ever played in WC history, Scotland are winning by 48 points to 39 with both teams scoring half a dozen tries each that came from the most free flowing beautiful attacking rugby the world has ever seen.

Scotland are in control on the half way line with 10 secs left on the clock when suddenly, from out of nowhere, Ryan Bloody Wilson flops over a ruck, lying on top of 3 Japanese players while shouting "Its just banter boys, I'm Batman". The ref then blows to give Japan a penantly onthe halfway line. Ryan Bloody Wilson then jumps up and shouts at the ref saying "You can't penalise me, I've got leadership skills, this is just banter and I'm Batman". The ref then gives Japan an extra 10m. Japan then look to take a kick to give them the LBP and go through to the QF but they miss. But wait. The TMO has come on. Appartnely the ref only gave japan 9.8 metres for Wilson's backchat. The kick is retaken, it goes through, Scotland are out the world cup.

Meanwhile, not realising the kick was retaken, Ryan Bloody Wilson is running around the stadium with his pants over his shorts shouting "It's all bantz, it's all bantz!"
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Post by TightHEAD on Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:51 pm

What is it with Scots and courts?

Take it on the chin, we all knew this could happen, I feel for the fans who have travelled out there.
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Post by jimbopip on Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:10 pm

tigertattie warning

In the words of the beautiful Bet Lynch, "Easy tiger! Easy"

I know we have differing opinions here on what Batman brings to the team. I can't help but feel those differences are more based on geography than a realistic assessment of his contributions to the cause.

Since you Luvvies insist on living in a shortbread tin version of a Harry Lauder sepia tinted slum there's no point in trying to educate you in the finer things in life. I'll bet you never had a Katsu chicken curry and chips washed down with a bottle of vintage IrnBru for breakfast , have you? Philistine.

Does Batman deserve to start ahead of Mags-Replicant-Mbawsa ? No. Should he be on the bench ahead of Barcs? Yes. His form over the season, and the warm up matches was better than Barcs'. Are there any other backrowers in the squad? No. So it's Batman. One thing we do know is that he will give it all he's got. You can argue that Matt Fagerson would have been a better choice but Toonie made his choice without consulting us. So Batman it is.

As for your vilifying him as some kind of rough-housing ne'erdowell. warning
Young Pipetto said hello to him pitchside at the Allianz a couple of seasons ago and he couldn't have been nicer to him. OK so he did spend part of that match rolling around the deck smacking Daddy's Boy Farrell, but that should be de riguer for a flanker. If he comes on on Sunday and rattles into their 10, I'll be a happy bunny.

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Post by tigertattie on Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:15 pm

As long as he does it legally Jimbo.

His only contrabution to the WC so far is to lay on top of a ruck givning away a penatly and preventing his team-mate getting a turn over.

He's jsut knickers.

Barcs (a former/reformed weegie) on the other hand has scored a try.
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Post by Taylorman on Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:17 pm

Fighting words from Jamie Joseph who’s a bit peeved with being told his side want the game called off. Again, not the teams at fault but not a good thing to poke the bear I wouldn’t think.

This match just has to go ahead. Yahoo

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Post by The Oracle on Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:22 pm

He makes some odd comments though, does Joseph. He tries to make out his side are amateur compared to Scotland and that they're only paid '100 bucks' each for attending training. Yet in other parts of the interview he says his side have been in camp for 240 days this year - christ, not many sides can say they've been together for that length of time I'm sure! And I bet the likes of Fiji or Samoa, whose players are all pro, get very little money for training camps either. Seems to be contradicting himself a little.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50011993
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Post by jimbopip on Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:35 pm

Most, or at least a sizeable chunk, of the Japan squad are contacted to their Super12/14/69/whatever side and Jamie Joseph had himself installed as their second team coach this year. Which in effect meant they played very little first team rugby but spent a lot of time training as a squad. I would imagine they were on their club's payroll at that point.

I feel quite nostalgic now: a southern hemisphere coach claiming his players are amateurs while they receive all the benefits of a very professional set up, including full time wages. Laugh

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Post by EST on Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:38 pm

The Oracle wrote:He makes some odd comments though, does Joseph.  He tries to make out his side are amateur compared to Scotland and that they're only paid '100 bucks' each for attending training.  Yet in other parts of the interview he says his side have been in camp for 240 days this year - christ, not many sides can say they've been together for that length of time I'm sure!  And I bet the likes of Fiji or Samoa, whose players are all pro, get very little money for training camps either.  Seems to be contradicting himself a little.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50011993

That contradiction jumped out at me as well, not many amateur teams can be in camp for that length of tume. As I understand it, the teams in the Japanese league are extensions of corporate entities - as the players are paid by the companies, they may technically be seen as employees of that organisation first and foremost and rugby players secondly?

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Post by Taylorman on Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:39 pm

Hmmm, wonder who will be the last ones laughing here. censored

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Post by SecretFly on Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:42 pm

Leitch only gets a 100 bucks for attending training in super wealthy Japan?

Great player, extremely dumb human being......... IF I believed it.

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Post by SecretFly on Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:44 pm

Taylorman wrote:Hmmm, wonder who will be the last ones laughing here. censored

They're laughing at the idea that somehow they (Scotland) are going to be bluffed into thinking they'll have an easy ride against 'amateurs'.

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Post by rodders on Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:46 pm

Cyril wrote:Will Pro14 sides now complain that Scottish and Italian players return early to bolster their squads?

Good point Cyril, just when you think things can't get worse!
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Post by The Oracle on Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:51 pm

rodders wrote:
Cyril wrote:Will Pro14 sides now complain that Scottish and Italian players return early to bolster their squads?

Good point Cyril, just when you think things can't get worse!


I'm sure we can find it in ourselves somewhere to have a bit of a moan Laugh

Seriously though, this World Cup period was meant to be a field day for the Dragons in the Pro14. We were going to pick up win after win and top the league! What are we going to do now!!! Laugh
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Post by tigertattie on Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:11 pm

So. the World Cup cant be held where the weather is bad, it cant be in the summer, it cant impact the clubs, its not allowed to interfere with the Rugby Championship or 6Ns, it's not allowed to interfere with the Lions Tour, it's not allowed to be held at Christmas/Eid/Diwalli, it's not allowed to be in ireland, it's not allowed tp be held during the rhino mating season.

So it's to be held in Sept each year rotating between Eng/Wal/Fra and SA/Oz/NZ

thats what you call opening up rugby to the world!

All we can do is look for the world to change the calandar to being 9 months long and the left over weeks can be used for sporting events!
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Post by Pal Joey on Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:20 pm

Think it would be good in the US but I'd prefer to see it in Ireland before that.
They deserve to host it next (after France again!) more than any other nation.
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Post by TheMildlyFranticLlama on Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:24 pm

tigertattie wrote:So it's to be held in Sept each year rotating between Eng/Wal/Fra and SA/Oz/NZ

Judging from some of the comments online it seems some people would genuinely be happy with this vomit

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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:29 pm

Pal Joey wrote:Think it would be good in the US but I'd prefer to see it in Ireland before that.
They deserve to host it next (after France again!) more than any other nation.

I honestly dont think Ireland will bid again for a long time. The process is weighted too much towards making money or offering money for votes.

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Post by Pal Joey on Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:31 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
Pal Joey wrote:Think it would be good in the US but I'd prefer to see it in Ireland before that.
They deserve to host it next (after France again!) more than any other nation.

I honestly dont think Ireland will bid again for a long time. The process is weighted too much towards making money or offering money for votes.

That's a shame.
How about a combined Ireland-Scotland bid... final in Dublin? Any chance of that do you think?
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Post by 123456789. on Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:37 pm

Pal Joey wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Pal Joey wrote:Think it would be good in the US but I'd prefer to see it in Ireland before that.
They deserve to host it next (after France again!) more than any other nation.

I honestly dont think Ireland will bid again for a long time. The process is weighted too much towards making money or offering money for votes.

That's a shame.
How about a combined Ireland-Scotland bid... final in Dublin? Any chance of that do you think?

Think there's a bit of bad blood between Ireland and Scotland in rugby terms currently after Scotland didn't support the Irish bid the last time. Both sides are petty enough that they'd argue over where the final should be held and allow the whole thing to be cancelled. Anyhow by that point Boris Johnson's series of (definitely not) borders will make Typhoon Haggis look like an administrative speed bump by that point.

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Post by Big on Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:51 pm

123456789. wrote:
Think there's a bit of bad blood between Ireland and Scotland in rugby terms currently after Scotland didn't support the Irish bid the last time. Both sides are petty enough that they'd argue over where the final should be held and allow the whole thing to be cancelled. Anyhow by that point Boris Johnson's series of (definitely not) borders will make Typhoon Haggis look like an administrative speed bump by that point.

Bad blood might be an issue, but even if there were a hard border (and frankly I've no idea what's going to happen there...) the presence of a hard border and over 1000km of sea didn't stop Australia and New Zealand co-hosting in 1987. They were going to do the same in 2003 but fell out over pitch signage rights, which would suggest that unsurprisingly perhaps the biggest stumbling block to any co-hosting is arguments over the money! Rolling Eyes

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Post by bsando on Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:57 pm

123456789. wrote:
Pal Joey wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Pal Joey wrote:Think it would be good in the US but I'd prefer to see it in Ireland before that.
They deserve to host it next (after France again!) more than any other nation.

I honestly dont think Ireland will bid again for a long time. The process is weighted too much towards making money or offering money for votes.

That's a shame.
How about a combined Ireland-Scotland bid... final in Dublin? Any chance of that do you think?

Think there's a bit of bad blood between Ireland and Scotland in rugby terms currently after Scotland didn't support the Irish bid the last time. Both sides are petty enough that they'd argue over where the final should be held and allow the whole thing to be cancelled. Anyhow by that point Boris Johnson's series of (definitely not) borders will make Typhoon Haggis look like an administrative speed bump by that point.

That would be a brilliant world cup though for the fans! Guiness in Dublin and malt whisky in Edinburgh and Glasgow. Road tripping around Ireland and Scotland in between matches.

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Post by Hazel Sapling on Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:00 pm

Ireland-Scotland-Wales bid would work well but Ireland went it alone and France have more money/infrastructure to host. I don't think Ireland have the size to host as NZ came across as a one-off compared to the previous and subsequent tournaments. 2027 should go to the Americas, whether it is USA/Canada or Uruguay/Argentina.

On the actual game
- McInally has been in poor form and being dropped/not captain might be what he needs
- P Horne does nothing for me, Taylor or Hastings is better. Versatility you go with Taylor, covering 10 you go with Hastings
- Seymour has been a great servant, but not sure if I would have put Kinghorn there. If Kinghorn could tackle a bit better, he would be starting. 50/50 call for me

We have enough there to win...whether the team shows up and is able to deal with a blitz defence is another matter

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Post by highland_scot on Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:01 pm

Pal Joey wrote:Think it would be good in the US but I'd prefer to see it in Ireland before that.
They deserve to host it next (after France again!) more than any other nation.

US would be good, but it's hurricane season in September, would have to hold it all in the West, or inland... And avoid tornado alley!

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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:08 pm

I would never want to share a RWC with the Scots, they didnt vote for us, they voted with their wallet, so they can go funk themselves. It wouldnt be necessary anyway.

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Post by 123456789. on Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:11 pm

Big wrote:
123456789. wrote:
Think there's a bit of bad blood between Ireland and Scotland in rugby terms currently after Scotland didn't support the Irish bid the last time. Both sides are petty enough that they'd argue over where the final should be held and allow the whole thing to be cancelled. Anyhow by that point Boris Johnson's series of (definitely not) borders will make Typhoon Haggis look like an administrative speed bump by that point.

Bad blood might be an issue, but even if there were a hard border (and frankly I've no idea what's going to happen there...) the presence of a hard border and over 1000km of sea didn't stop Australia and New Zealand co-hosting in 1987.  They were going to do the same in 2003 but fell out over pitch signage rights, which would suggest that unsurprisingly perhaps the biggest stumbling block to any co-hosting is arguments over the money! Rolling Eyes

The hard border bit was a joke, I don't believe it would be a problem. I have thought for a long time that if Scotland were to attempt to host a world cup it would be sensible to expand temporarily into England to include Newcastle and Sunderland. Both have large stadiums close to Scotland's rugby heartlands, and I imagine the English would be onside if it meant taking rugby to previously unconverted areas. Between Scotland and Ireland you could have the Stadium of Light, St. James' Park, Murrayfield, Hampden, Ibrox, Celtic Park, the Aviva Stadium, Croke park. As well as smaller stadiums like Scotstoun, Pittodrie, Rugby Park, Thomond Park, RDS, Ravenhill and the Sportsground. The sticking point would be the final; Glasgow could be a compromise, it's closer to Ireland and has a large Irish diaspora as well as three very large stadiums.

The other issue would be buying the Welsh votes, I may be wrong but I think there's yet to be a Northern Hemisphere world cup in which the Welsh did not host a knockout round.

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Post by Big on Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:36 pm

To be fair to the Welsh - the Millenium stadium is a cracking stadium, and the locals love their rugby. If I was organising a world cup I'd want some of the matches there!

St James park is also great, I went to the Scotland v Samoa game there during the 2015 world cup, as well as the England warm up a few weeks ago. Would agree it would be a sensible extra stadium if Scotland did ever make a bid. Stadium of Light is decent enough but is a bit smaller than St James, and not quite so direct by train for those coming from North of the border.

As an outside bet you could maybe also include Darlington's ground. It's on the main North-South train line so easier from Edinburgh than Sunderland, and has 25k seats - so big enough for some of the smaller games. It was originally built for football, but is now technically a rugby stadium.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:40 pm

Yeah Cardiff is a good rugby venue, right in city centre with an anything goes approach to nightlife.

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Post by RDW on Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:51 pm

Hazel Sapling wrote:Ireland-Scotland-Wales bid would work well but Ireland went it alone and France have more money/infrastructure to host. I don't think Ireland have the size to host as NZ came across as a one-off compared to the previous and subsequent tournaments. 2027 should go to the Americas, whether it is USA/Canada or Uruguay/Argentina.

On the actual game
- McInally has been in poor form and being dropped/not captain might be what he needs
- P Horne does nothing for me, Taylor or Hastings is better. Versatility you go with Taylor, covering 10 you go with Hastings
- Seymour has been a great servant, but not sure if I would have put Kinghorn there. If Kinghorn could tackle a bit better, he would be starting. 50/50 call for me

We have enough there to win...whether the team shows up and is able to deal with a blitz defence is another matter

Bit harsh I think - lineout has been good and he did well against Samoa. In all the distractions today it's never really been explained why he was dropped - to drop your captain before the biggest game in years is a major decision!

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Post by Poorfour on Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:56 pm

Big wrote:To be fair to the Welsh - the Millenium stadium is a cracking stadium, and the locals love their rugby.  If I was organising a world cup I'd want some of the matches there!

St James park is also great, I went to the Scotland v Samoa game there during the 2015 world cup, as well as the England warm up a few weeks ago.  Would agree it would be a sensible extra stadium if Scotland did ever make a bid.  Stadium of Light is decent enough but is a bit smaller than St James, and not quite so direct by train for those coming from North of the border.  

As an outside bet you could maybe also include Darlington's ground.  It's on the main North-South train line so easier from Edinburgh than Sunderland, and has 25k seats - so big enough for some of the smaller games.  It was originally built for football, but is now technically a rugby stadium.

The challenge is that the NH RWCs tend to be the ones where World Rugby is banking on making a lot of money, and you need a lot of big stadia for that. RWC 2015 used:
- 3 stadia over 70,000 seats
- 3 over 50,000
- 5 over 30,000
- 2 under 20,000.

Ireland and Scotland combined have a decent number of mid-sized stadia, but only Croke Park is over 70,000. That's always going to be a struggle.


Ireland's got 2 big ones and 4 medium sized ones, Scotland, even with St James's Park
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Post by BigGee on Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:57 pm


Head Coach Gregor Townsend today named the Scotland team for the decisive Rugby World Cup Pool A finale against Japan at the International Stadium Yokohama (kick-off 11.45am BST, 7.45pm local time) – live on ITV/STV.




The Scots must defeat the tournament hosts for a chance to progress to the quarter-finals, with four or more championship points than their opponents required to guarantee safe passage to the last eight.


An emphasis on rotation and recovery has seen Townsend make 12 changes to the team which started Scotland’s 61-0 victory over Russia two days ago, though shows just two changes to that which took to the field against Samoa in round two almost a fortnight ago (34-0) – meaning all 31 squad players featured in these vital Pool wins.

Scrum-half Greig Laidlaw returns to captain the side and build on his national team record of appearances in the role, with Stuart McInally listed among an impactful bench.

Laidlaw is among seven of those rested after the Samoa win to begin preparations for this Sunday’s Test against the Brave Blossoms, providing a fresh spine of the team in spite of the four-day turnaround between rounds three and four.

He is joined by rested stand-off Finn Russell – surpassing the record set by Roy Laidlaw and John Rutherford of 35 starts together at half-back – back-row Blade Thomson, lock Jonny Gray, full-back Stuart Hogg, centre Sam Johnson and prop Allan Dell – with Saracens wing Sean Maitland unable to recover sufficiently from a groin strain sustained in the Samoa game.






Record breakers - Finn Russell and Greig Laidlaw in Japan




Townsend said: “It’s taken a real squad effort from our players here in Japan to put us in a position to play for a place in the quarter-finals, having risen to the challenge of what’s effectively been knockout rugby since the second round of our Pool.

“The entire group has featured in our past two Tests, both of which have been clinical and professional performances.

“It was great to see players get the opportunity to play in this World Cup on Wednesday and it looked like they enjoyed the experience.

“The effort invested in defence, support play and clearing has been encouraging and has put a lot of pressure on the opposition.




“A few players have pushed hard for selection with the form they’ve shown in training and in the last two games and it’s now down to this group of 23 men to build on this momentum and squad togetherness to deliver a winning performance against Japan.”
Head Coach Gregor Townsend




Every effort has been made to manage the load on the remainder of Sunday’s starting team, with Fraser Brown – rewarded with his first start of the campaign at his favoured position of hooker – prop Willem Nel, lock Grant Gilchrist and centre Chris Harris all playing half an hour or less against Russia.

Edinburgh’s Magnus Bradbury returns to partner the rested Thomson and Jamie Ritchie – an unused replacement against Russia – in the back-row.

Wings Darcy Graham and Tommy Seymour are the only others to have started against Russia, completing the back-three with full-back Hogg.

Townsend added: “The opportunity to face the hosts in such a decisive Pool match will be a unique occasion and should be a great spectacle.

“Games of this magnitude don’t come around very often in a playing career so we will be giving it everything to make sure it is a memorable match.”

Scotland team to play Japan at Yokohama Stadium in Rugby World Cup Pool A
Sunday 13 October (kick-off 11.45am BST, 7.45pm local time)

15. Stuart Hogg VICE CAPTAIN (Exeter Chiefs) – 71 caps

14. Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors) – 54 caps
13. Chris Harris (Gloucester) – 13 caps
12. Sam Johnson (Glasgow Warriors) – 8 caps
11. Darcy Graham (Edinburgh) – 10 caps

10. Finn Russell (Racing 92) – 48 caps
9. Greig Laidlaw CAPTAIN (Clermont Auvergne) – 75 caps

1. Allan Dell (London Irish) – 27 caps
2. Fraser Brown VICE CAPTAIN (Glasgow Warriors) – 45 caps
3. Willem Nel (Edinburgh) – 34 caps
4. Grant Gilchrist (Edinburgh) – 39 caps
5. Jonny Gray (Glasgow Warriors) – 54 caps
6. Magnus Bradbury (Edinburgh) – 10 caps
7. Jamie Ritchie (Edinburgh) – 13 caps
8. Blade Thomson (Scarlets) – 4 caps

Substitutes:
16. Stuart McInally (Edinburgh) – 32 caps
17. Gordon Reid (Ayrshire Bulls) – 40 caps
18. Zander Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors) – 24 caps
19. Scott Cummings (Glasgow Warriors) – 7 caps
20. Ryan Wilson (Glasgow Warriors) – 48 caps
21. George Horne (Glasgow Warriors) – 9 caps
22. Pete Horne (Glasgow Warriors) – 44 caps
23. Blair Kinghorn (Edinburgh) – 16 caps

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Post by BigGee on Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:58 pm

Everyone seems to have forgotten that we may have a game on sunday!

Teams out

Big news is the McInally drops to bench and Brown starts, GL is the captain. Maitland out with injury so Seymour starts on the wing with Blairhorn on the bench!

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Post by EWT Spoons on Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:00 pm

BigGee wrote:Everyone seems to have forgotten that we may have a game on sunday!

Teams out

Big news is the McInally drops to bench and Brown starts, GL is the captain. Maitland out with injury so Seymour starts on the wing with Blairhorn on the bench!

Been posted 4x already mate.  Seems to be less important than discussing where a future WC could be held.

Can understand why you might have missed them, as they've largely been ignored.

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:01 pm

SecretFly wrote:Have the World Rugby people given a schedule for when they'd for a fact either declare the game on or off?  After all, they had a press conference to fanfare a few other decisions.  It's getting late.  Do Scotland, Japan and fans just turn up and wait for a decision seconds before the ref blows his whistle to start?

5 minutes from the end depending on whether japan are winning or not.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:01 pm

Poorfour wrote:
Big wrote:To be fair to the Welsh - the Millenium stadium is a cracking stadium, and the locals love their rugby.  If I was organising a world cup I'd want some of the matches there!

St James park is also great, I went to the Scotland v Samoa game there during the 2015 world cup, as well as the England warm up a few weeks ago.  Would agree it would be a sensible extra stadium if Scotland did ever make a bid.  Stadium of Light is decent enough but is a bit smaller than St James, and not quite so direct by train for those coming from North of the border.  

As an outside bet you could maybe also include Darlington's ground.  It's on the main North-South train line so easier from Edinburgh than Sunderland, and has 25k seats - so big enough for some of the smaller games.  It was originally built for football, but is now technically a rugby stadium.

The challenge is that the NH RWCs tend to be the ones where World Rugby is banking on making a lot of money, and you need a lot of big stadia for that. RWC 2015 used:
- 3 stadia over 70,000 seats
- 3 over 50,000
- 5 over 30,000
- 2 under 20,000.

Ireland and Scotland combined have a decent number of mid-sized stadia, but only Croke Park is over 70,000. That's always going to be a struggle.


Ireland's got 2 big ones and 4 medium sized ones, Scotland, even with St James's Park

Disagree, Japan only has 1 70k stadium. Most stadia are well below 50k. Japan is in the NH.

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Post by miaow on Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:11 pm

RDW wrote:McInally dropped!

From an outside perspective, can't say I'm surprised.

Not that he's a bad player, but that he is a dreadful captain. Nothing about him screams captain material and I have no idea how he got the role.

You can't pull it off him easily - 'ah, you're a decent player, Stuart, but a cr@p captain, and so you're starting, but just not leading' - without also saying he's not good enough as a player.

That's my thoughts behind it. Equally, he's a decent player, but not exactly undroppable either - which makes the captaincy issue all the more puzzling. Not a fan of giving front rowers the captaincy as they have to go off in this day and age around 60 minutes. Unless they're special, but that's even rarer these days. The days of Sean Fitzpatrick never leaving the field are long gone. Make your best lock or back rower your captain and be done with it.

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Post by EWT Spoons on Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:20 pm

miaow wrote:
RDW wrote:McInally dropped!

From an outside perspective, can't say I'm surprised.

Not that he's a bad player, but that he is a dreadful captain. Nothing about him screams captain material and I have no idea how he got the role.

You can't pull it off him easily - 'ah, you're a decent player, Stuart, but a cr@p captain, and so you're starting, but just not leading' - without also saying he's not good enough as a player.

That's my thoughts behind it. Equally, he's a decent player, but not exactly undroppable either - which makes the captaincy issue all the more puzzling. Not a fan of giving front rowers the captaincy as they have to go off in this day and age around 60 minutes. Unless they're special, but that's even rarer these days. The days of Sean Fitzpatrick never leaving the field are long gone. Make your best lock or back rower your captain and be done with it.

Hard to disagree with any of that, I would have said he was undroppable, but as he's been dropped that blows that theory out the water.

I think McInally is a superb player, but he's not vocal in the slightest and as such not one to talk to refs or really talk to players, but he does lead by example.  I posted before the WC that he didn't really want the captaincy (but would take it if offered), as he's probably not a natural leader.
For me, i think Ritchie is best suited to that role, he leads by example, has captained every age grade he was involved with, and club level.  He's got 2-3 kids so is used to dealing with the like of Finn, he's going to be very hard to remove from the team (can play 6 or 7 so can accommodate Mish) and he's able to talk to the players and ref.  He's also still very young so will be around the team for the next decade.

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Post by miaow on Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:21 pm

bsando wrote:That would be a brilliant world cup though for the fans! Guiness in Dublin and malt whisky in Edinburgh and buckfast in Glasgow. Road tripping and road sleeping around Ireland and Scotland in between matches.

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Post by miaow on Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:25 pm

On a serious note, obviously Ireland and Scotland would be amazing. I wrote a few days ago that it's the bid that should happen. Stupid politics getting in the way - does Ireland have enough stadia to cope? Can't just have every game at the Aviva, and it's not like England where you can co-opt football stadia in the same way without having a big impact, is it?

Makes sense to combine the two and have some of the best rugby stadia in both countries hosting. Obviously let Wales play our games at the Millennium, and maybe throw a quarter final over to Wales as well, and you're golden.

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Post by miaow on Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:31 pm

EWT Spoons wrote:
miaow wrote:
RDW wrote:McInally dropped!

From an outside perspective, can't say I'm surprised.

Not that he's a bad player, but that he is a dreadful captain. Nothing about him screams captain material and I have no idea how he got the role.

You can't pull it off him easily - 'ah, you're a decent player, Stuart, but a cr@p captain, and so you're starting, but just not leading' - without also saying he's not good enough as a player.

That's my thoughts behind it. Equally, he's a decent player, but not exactly undroppable either - which makes the captaincy issue all the more puzzling. Not a fan of giving front rowers the captaincy as they have to go off in this day and age around 60 minutes. Unless they're special, but that's even rarer these days. The days of Sean Fitzpatrick never leaving the field are long gone. Make your best lock or back rower your captain and be done with it.

Hard to disagree with any of that, I would have said he was undroppable, but as he's been dropped that blows that theory out the water.

I think McInally is a superb player, but he's not vocal in the slightest and as such not one to talk to refs or really talk to players, but he does lead by example.  I posted before the WC that he didn't really want the captaincy (but would take it if offered), as he's probably not a natural leader.
For me, i think Ritchie is best suited to that role, he leads by example, has captained every age grade he was involved with, and club level.  He's got 2-3 kids so is used to dealing with the like of Finn, he's going to be very hard to remove from the team (can play 6 or 7 so can accommodate Mish) and he's able to talk to the players and ref.  He's also still very young so will be around the team for the next decade.

Aagain, outside perspective, but if not Barclay (seems too old now) the next obvious leader is Johnny Gray. Seems he hasn't lived up to the hype though. Few more years/a bit of improvement and he's the obvious captain in that team in my opinion. Far too many 1-2 season wonders in just about every position for Scotland, so it ends up falling on players like Laidlaw to captain. Pretty telling that Townsend is coach as he's made the 9 captain, and the 15 a vice captain. Yeah, 2's vice as well, but come on. The game isn't won or lost by the 15.

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Post by EWT Spoons on Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:39 pm

miaow wrote:
EWT Spoons wrote:
miaow wrote:
RDW wrote:McInally dropped!

From an outside perspective, can't say I'm surprised.

Not that he's a bad player, but that he is a dreadful captain. Nothing about him screams captain material and I have no idea how he got the role.

You can't pull it off him easily - 'ah, you're a decent player, Stuart, but a cr@p captain, and so you're starting, but just not leading' - without also saying he's not good enough as a player.

That's my thoughts behind it. Equally, he's a decent player, but not exactly undroppable either - which makes the captaincy issue all the more puzzling. Not a fan of giving front rowers the captaincy as they have to go off in this day and age around 60 minutes. Unless they're special, but that's even rarer these days. The days of Sean Fitzpatrick never leaving the field are long gone. Make your best lock or back rower your captain and be done with it.

Hard to disagree with any of that, I would have said he was undroppable, but as he's been dropped that blows that theory out the water.

I think McInally is a superb player, but he's not vocal in the slightest and as such not one to talk to refs or really talk to players, but he does lead by example.  I posted before the WC that he didn't really want the captaincy (but would take it if offered), as he's probably not a natural leader.
For me, i think Ritchie is best suited to that role, he leads by example, has captained every age grade he was involved with, and club level.  He's got 2-3 kids so is used to dealing with the like of Finn, he's going to be very hard to remove from the team (can play 6 or 7 so can accommodate Mish) and he's able to talk to the players and ref.  He's also still very young so will be around the team for the next decade.

Aagain, outside perspective, but if not Barclay (seems too old now) the next obvious leader is Johnny Gray. Seems he hasn't lived up to the hype though. Few more years/a bit of improvement and he's the obvious captain in that team in my opinion. Far too many 1-2 season wonders in just about every position for Scotland, so it ends up falling on players like Laidlaw to captain. Pretty telling that Townsend is coach as he's made the 9 captain, and the 15 a vice captain. Yeah, 2's vice as well, but come on. The game isn't won or lost by the 15.

Johnny suffers the same problem as McInally, but much much worse. He's not a leader, good player, but not a captain. Glasgow tried for a while but gave up on that.

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Post by miaow on Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:44 pm

Yeah, seems too much of a 'nice boy' as far as I can tell. Someone you'd be ok with your daughter marrying, but that's about it. Not enough fight in him, not enough grit.

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Post by robbo277 on Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:11 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Have the World Rugby people given a schedule for when they'd for a fact either declare the game on or off?  After all, they had a press conference to fanfare a few other decisions.  It's getting late.  Do Scotland, Japan and fans just turn up and wait for a decision seconds before the ref blows his whistle to start?

5 minutes from the end depending on whether japan are winning or not.

I know this is facetious, but if the game is abandoned at or after half time the result at the time stands. I think cancellation is the main risk, as I think if conditions are good enough to play I don't think they'll deteriorate to the point the game needs to be abandoned.

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Post by Poorfour on Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:13 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Disagree, Japan only has 1 70k stadium. Most stadia are well below 50k. Japan is in the NH.

I was wondering if someone would try to score pedant points [1]... I used "NH" as a shorthand for "wealthy, typically European host countries that can promise large ticket sales and big tv revenue."

World Rugby runs its finances on an 8 year cycle, earning naff all between RWCs and alternating RWC host countries between lower revenue ones that develop the game (Japan) or celebrate its heritage (New Zealand) and ones in countries with big TV markets and big stadia. In effect, the only countries that could currently satisfy the latter category are England and France. Italy could be a candidate if it could garner enough attention away from soccer. Wales, Scotland and Ireland might be able to do it if they pull together. South Africa ought to be able to do it but there are concerns about security and ticket sales.

Yes, Japan is technically in the NH, but as you say it has small stadia and is a "developing" nation in rugby terms. And you'll notice that World Rugby selected it in the "off" cycle, after the record revenues they were guaranteed from England 2015.

The pattern is really consistent:
1987 - Aus / NZ (small)
1991 - UK (big)
1995 - SA (small-ish)
1999 - UK & France (big)
2003 - Australia (small)
2007 - France (big)
2011 - NZ (small)
2015 - England (huge)
2019 - Japan (small, and diminished by hurricanes)
2023 - France

What's the betting on 2031 being hosted by England again?

---
[1] Actually, that should be "pedantry points" [2]
[2] 10 pedantry points to me!
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Post by SecretFly on Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:29 pm

Poorfour wrote:


What's the betting on 2031 being hosted by England again?


It'll be held in Antarctica, main sponsors Disney, televised exclusively on Netflix...when Sepp Blatter is confirmed as new World Rugby CEO after the absolute shambles of Japan 2019.

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Post by 123456789. on Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:39 pm

Dropping the captain for the big game is a move straight from the 2011 Andy Robinson playbook. Let's hope that's where the similarities end.
It could be a deliberate strategy, I've always had it in my head that Fraser Brown is the better set piece hooker of the two. The logic could be to have Brown on to begin with, then have MacInally on as the bigger attacking threat with 20 minutes to go, with a four day turnaround the game is about basically getting as much as possible out of the players.

On the captain situation, your captain needs to be a guaranteed starter. For us that's usually Hogg, Maitland, Johnson, Russell, Laidlaw, Watson, Gray, Dell, MacInally, Nel. None of those, Laidlaw aside, scream captaincy material. The front three are all usually substituted around the 50-60 minute mark. Gray wasn't a god Glasgow captain. Watson, Russell, Johnson and Maitland have, to my knowledge, not been captains before. Hogg captained Scotland against the USA and that didn't go fantastically.

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Post by bsando on Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:47 pm

miaow wrote:
bsando wrote:That would be a brilliant world cup though for the fans! Guiness in Dublin and malt whisky in Edinburgh and buckfast in Glasgow. Road tripping and road sleeping around Ireland and Scotland in between matches.

Laugh clap

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