QF1 - Match Thread - England v Australia - 19/10/19 - K/O 08:15 BST

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Post by miaow on Thu 10 Oct 2019, 6:29 pm

First topic message reminder :

Thought I'd get these made nice and early for a few reasons - but one being that we're already now looking ahead to the QFs with several teams having finished their group stage, so it's all heating up for the proper knockout stuff...barring any more disruption.

England

QF1 - Match Thread - England v Australia - 19/10/19 - K/O 08:15 BST - Page 15 PD41938128_england-fans-sport_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqWqpbAtgKJyHaMBh-yZTXbW8et-6rYaUXyRowuM0JGEM

Team: Daly; Watson, Slade, Tuilagi, May; Farrell (capt), Youngs; M Vunipola, George, Sinckler; Itoje, Lawes; Curry, Underhill, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Marler, Cole, Kruis, Ludlam, Heinz, Ford, Joseph.


Australia

QF1 - Match Thread - England v Australia - 19/10/19 - K/O 08:15 BST - Page 15 2D0E80A200000578-3258786-Australia_fans_celebrated_their_comfortable_win_which_sent_host_-a-123_1443908592097

Team: Beale; Hodge, Petaia, Kerevi, Koroibete; Lealiifano, Genia; Alaalatoa, Latu, Sio; Arnold, Rodda; Naisarani, Hooper (c), Pocock.

Replacements: Uelese, Slipper, Tupou, Coleman, Salakaia-Loto, White, To'omua, O'Connor.



Venue: Oita
Referee: Jerome Garces
AR1: Romain Poite
AR2: Mathieu Raynal
TMO: Ben Skeen


Last edited by miaow on Thu 24 Oct 2019, 1:54 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Post by lostinwales on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 11:43 am

So its going to be NZ in the semi finals. Ireland struggling to get into the game and they don't do so well coming from behind

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Post by No name Bertie on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 11:46 am

BamBam wrote:Hoping May injury is misdiagnosed cramp rather than a hammy
MightyQuin wrote:Jones reckons he’ll be fine. No dramas, full squad for the semis.

thumbsup thumbsup

I found out exactly the same thing happened to Jonny May in the England vs Tonga match on 22 September - and it was attributed to cramp.  It seems that Jonny May is susceptible to cramping during a match.

ruck.co.uk 22 September wrote: Jonny May injury | Eddie Jones reveals why the winger went off
England winger Jonny May was forced to leave the field with an injury against Tonga as Eddie Jones’ men recorded a 35-3 win in their Rugby World Cup opener.  There was a worry that the Leicester winger had suffered a hamstring injury in the 51st minute. But Jones was quick to explain the Jonny May injury in his post-match interview with ITV.  “He just ran too much and gone down with a bit of cramp,” revealed Jones, much to the relief of England fans ...

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Post by The Oracle on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 11:47 am

Congrats England. Didn’t see the 2nd half but that’s a hell of a score. Took them to the cleaners! clap
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Post by stub on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 11:55 am

Sounds promising regarding Jonny May.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 12:25 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Curry could be a superstar if he continues on the same path.

I know im like a broken down record player..but the talent coming through in the back row is scary....

Yes, but are any of the new guys remotely as complete a player as Curry is right now? He does everything and looks better every game, especially now hes filled out a bit more.

His twin is pretty damn good. But your right at rhe moment he is supreme. Ine of the best in the world ...simple as that.

And yes Willis is an interesting one. He will be one to watch this season.  

When you think that Ludlam is still learning his trade, only played 43 first class games for Saints and only secured a regular starting slot half way through last season, how much better is he going to become as he gets more experience. Last year he was wondering if his contract was going to be renewed, this year he is playing in the knockout stages of a RWC, talk about rags to riches.

Read a piece somewhere on the BBC that at 13 he promised his teacher that he would get her a ticket to Twickenham when he played hi first game for England, 10 years later he mad good that promise.

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Post by TightHEAD on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 12:33 pm



Wasn't that impressed with Slade and once again Daly is not a FB.
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Post by lostinwales on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 12:52 pm

Slade was OK. A couple of loose moments but generally solid in defense, good back up kicker and the interception and chip for May #2 was excellent.

Daly was quiet because they didn't kick the ball much at all. He didn't have much work to do.

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Post by TightHEAD on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 12:54 pm

Daly is hopeless as a last defender. Massive weak link.
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Post by BamBam on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 1:17 pm

Looks like Tom Curry can't get everything right..

https://twitter.com/cocker/status/1185506816341487617?s=21

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 1:24 pm

England's last 5 results against Australia have remarkably similar second half scores:

2016 24- 5
2017 24- 6
2018 24- 6
2019 23- 7


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Post by Heaf on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 1:27 pm

Not to be picky that's only 4 Smile

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Post by lostinwales on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 1:31 pm

BamBam wrote:Looks like Tom Curry can't get everything right..

https://twitter.com/cocker/status/1185506816341487617?s=21

Funny but not sure if its his fault

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Post by BamBam on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 1:35 pm

Definitely some cultural crossed wires

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Post by kingelderfield on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 1:54 pm

A concern has to be if Mako and Slade are able to back up and hopefully improve on todays performances?
Getting up for the big come back game is one thing, but will they have the necessary resilient fitness to back it up?

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Post by kingelderfield on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 1:57 pm

Wasn't Billy's best game, though obviously far from his worsed. We will however need his best next week.

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Post by lostinwales on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 2:03 pm

kingelderfield wrote:A concern has to be if Mako and Slade are able to back up and hopefully improve on todays performances?
Getting up for the big come back game is one thing, but will they have the necessary resilient fitness to back it up?

I don't think we lose much starting Marler to be honest. He's been in such good form. Mako always gives his all and when on form one of the best in the game, but he was overshadowed by Sinckler today.

As for Slade I don't know. Eddie knew what Australia would try to do and knew how to counter it. If he feels we'll be better with Ford starting then Slade may well end up competing for a bench spot with Joseph.

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Post by kingelderfield on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 2:03 pm

We need 2 Watsons, hence why id happily see Nowell's introduction, as he and Watson are far more comfortable at fb and interchangable wing and fb.
Also for all Daly's kicking ability, I can't recall his kicking from hand being as exceptional.

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Post by majesticimperialman on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 2:12 pm

Thinking about next week's game Can England afford to put out the same team against New Zealand? It is a big question. probably not in my opinion. 

Will Daily be more of a liability against the threat of NZ?

Any way that is for next week.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 3:46 pm

Booooooo. Out drinking and hoping to watch the nz match blind.

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Post by LondonTiger on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 5:20 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Booooooo. Out drinking and hoping to watch the nz match blind.

Then do not come on a Rugby Forum Cool

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 5:23 pm

Git. Thought it was worth the risk on a england thread.

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Post by miaow on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 5:45 pm

Thought Tuilagi went perfectly at 12. Key in making room for May's first try.

Slade justified his selection as well, intelligent player, and will be needed v ABs.

Decent game, some way off the All Blacks' performance. Biggest test might be whether England are undercooked?

Australia pretty poor in the end, lots of effort, but all in the wrong areas. Beale was poor, wonder how different it might have been with Haylett Petty at 15. Seemed the tactic was don't kick clear, try and force an England penalty, and make territory that way.

As predicted, Koroibete got two 1 on 1s with Daly and finished them both. One pegged back, but the first one he scored was glaring. That's such an obvious weakness for England. Otherwise looking pretty good. Not as tidy as Wales were at the breakdown, but didn't need to be in the end.

Felt like England were in third gear tbh and still picked them off. Australia almost looked relieved they were out. Weird.

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Post by Poorfour on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 5:49 pm

My big worries from today were ball retention and Daly. 

If we cough up as much possession as we did today against the All Blacks, they will punish it. And Daly gave away one try with poor defensive positioning and would have given away another if it weren’t for the forward pass. Given how good the goal line defence was, there’s a very good chance that any tackle would have been enough to prevent them crossing the line at all.

Hansen will have watched that with interest. 

I’d be more comfortable with a May / Watson / Nowell back three next week. Or if any of the backs are injured, Mike Brown is fit and available...
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Post by LondonTiger on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 6:05 pm

Everyone blaming Daly for the try, and ignoring the first huge mistake which was Slade's.

Slade did excellently for May's second try, but overall he was a bit of a passenger. As expected Manu saw less of the ball than usual, but then we had little ball.

In the end, while Australia dominated much of the stats, losing the turnover battle 18-8 was critical.

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Post by miaow on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 6:06 pm

Nowell at 15? That's what I'd go for, personally. Maybe an issue in the air, but he seems to be a bit like Halfpenny in understanding positioning.

Haven't read the thread so presumably everyone picked up on Daly, but it seems his attack has suffered as well. The extra 10m or so you get from his place kicking isn't really looking worth it. He's a good #23 in my mind.

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Post by miaow on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 6:10 pm

Also, bit heated in the week before the game etc., accusations of bias, but I'm actually glad Australia got their @rses handed back to them. Disgraceful post match behaviour after losing to Wales, pretty poor media all tournament with regard to refereeing and high tackling, and ultimately they looked poor today. Lots of ability - I love Koroibete with ball in hand, absolute perfect rugby player - but they're the French of the SH. Almost disdainful approach to things like exit strategies because 'we're Australian and we want to entertain people'. Amateurish in the end. Particularly when you can line up Rhys Hodge to kick it 60-70m downfield every time...

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Post by LondonTiger on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 6:15 pm

Oh Daly was our weakest player, followed by Slade imo.

Unless his confidence is shot though I believe that EJ will persevere. Bearing in mind how poorly Watson went at FB in 2018 and how well he continues to go on the wing I just cannot see him being moved. Nowell could have been an option if he had any rugby under his belt.

And P4 - I usually respect your opinions, but Brown would not have got within spitting distance of Koroibete.

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Post by miaow on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 6:22 pm

Interesting. I thought Slade added some key touches, aside from the obvious nice grubber assist, and was generally pretty solid. It's more about having him 'there' as an intelligent, ball playing option when it matters - and of course that did matter for the try.

How much slower is Nowell than Slade?

Can't help but feel Daly is a 'package' deal - a quadruple threat of pace, goal kicking, side stepping, and versatility. NZ showed how just brute physical attributes can win games - SA likewise. Is Nowell quick enough in the modern game? Genuinely not sure.

Either way, it does seem he will stick with Daly - but you wonder...Nowell's been injured, the time to blood him back in to the team was put back. Expect the unexpected - including if it's something very sensible, or that he sticks. Just don't know with EJ. No clear 15 in the team in my mind, but Brown wasn't the answer, nor was Alex Goode. Barrett shows how important speed is in impacting skills and decisions - Lamour v Kearney as well. Both too slow.

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Post by miaow on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 6:32 pm

One other thing - and not to drag out the Tuilagi debate, but it's relevant - is Tuilagi's defence. I remember him missing a key tackle, possibly in the lead up to a try, today. That's why he's not a 13 for me. His tackle percentage is something like 65% for the tournament. That's not outside centre stuff.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 6:49 pm

He went perfectly at 12. Except when he didn't which is why he cant play at 13. Great.

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Post by Poorfour on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 6:58 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Oh Daly was our weakest player, followed by Slade imo.

Unless his confidence is shot though I believe that EJ will persevere. Bearing in mind how poorly Watson went at FB in 2018 and how well he continues to go on the wing I just cannot see him being moved. Nowell could have been an option if he had any rugby under his belt.

And P4 - I usually respect your opinions, but Brown would not have got within spitting distance of Koroibete.

I beg to differ. Neither the try nor the disallowed try was about pure speed, it was all about positioning. There was enough time for Daly to get in position, but he committed too early, gave Koroibete too much space on the outside and left himself with too much to do. From the same position, Brown would have been even further away than Daly, but Brown wouldn’t have been in that position.
 
Daly doesn’t think about space the way a fullback needs to. He leaves too many gaps when he should be covering the space and controlling options.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 7:01 pm

Fair. He is going to get switched now though.

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Post by miaow on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 7:01 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:He went perfectly at 12. Except when he didn't which is why he cant play at 13. Great.

What?


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 7:02 pm

Exactly.
Sorry still also waiting for you to say which games you are basing tuilagi's performances at 13 as well.

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Post by kingelderfield on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 7:12 pm

Is ford really such a defensive weakness?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 7:14 pm

Nope. I dont think anyone has said he is really.

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Post by Pie on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 8:35 pm

well done ENG now do us all a favor and knock NZ off their perch

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Post by LondonTiger on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 8:36 pm

kingelderfield wrote:Is ford really such a defensive weakness?

He is an excellent cover defender. Head on he makes a high proportion of tackles and often has a large number to make as he is never hidden in defence. However he will never be a dominant tackler and the occasion where he is bumped off by a big guy is used to support prejudge opinions. We are all guilty of doing this, applying confirmation bias to what we see.

It is this application of confirmation bias that makes any debate about players, especially on a forum, difficult. We can all watch the same game and take very different things from it. We cannot believe that no-one else has seen what we see. This leads to arguments and name calling.

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Post by LondonTiger on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 8:36 pm

Pie wrote:well done ENG now do us all a favor and knock NZ off their perch

Thanks. We shall try.

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Post by miaow on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 8:39 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Exactly.
Sorry still also waiting for you to say which games you are basing tuilagi's performances at 13 as well.

Oh right, yeah, I get it. So he'd played 13 in the lead up/in the tournament so far with a tackle percentage of 65%, but somehow you don't understand why that's not good enough in important games...

Ok Hug

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Post by miaow on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 8:41 pm

kingelderfield wrote:Is ford really such a defensive weakness?

Potentially, yes, in that he will get driven back with ease if isolated 1 on 1. Obviously few opponents are good enough to do that to England. I'd say Daly is a bigger problem with the same/worse issue as NZ wil make linebreaks.

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Post by LondonTiger on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 8:43 pm

Slade managed 60% tackle completion today Run

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Post by miaow on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 8:45 pm

Haha, good point. Although less damning in a one off game than over several. But perhaps that's an issue that needs looking at for England - particularly with the upcoming opponents. They caused havoc inside and outside by running at the Irish fringes and then feeding it both ways. Likely to do the same next week.

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Post by majesticimperialman on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 8:47 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Pie wrote:well done ENG now do us all a favor and knock NZ off their perch

Thanks. We shall try.

This England team looks the opposit to the 2003 team( Great white orcs) they are not as old as those guys, but look very sharp.

I would like to think this England side could beat NZ and go all the way and win the final. 

What an achievement that would be for such a young side/team/squad.

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Post by Pie on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 8:50 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Pie wrote:well done ENG now do us all a favor and knock NZ off their perch

Thanks. We shall try.

This England team looks the opposit to the 2003 team( Great white orcs) they are not as old as those guys, but look very sharp.

I would like to think this England side could beat NZ and go all the way and win the final. 

What an achievement that would be for such a young side/team/squad.

What they must do - and it was the only time Ireland looked to trouble NZ - is play a tight game and hammer them in the narrow channels and in the ruck. Pick and drive pick and drive.

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Post by majesticimperialman on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 8:53 pm

Pie wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Pie wrote:well done ENG now do us all a favor and knock NZ off their perch

Thanks. We shall try.

This England team looks the opposit to the 2003 team( Great white orcs) they are not as old as those guys, but look very sharp.

I would like to think this England side could beat NZ and go all the way and win the final. 

What an achievement that would be for such a young side/team/squad.

What they must do - and it was the only time Ireland looked to trouble NZ - is play a tight game and hammer them in the narrow channels and in the ruck. Pick and drive pick and drive.

I am sure Eddie Jones will take your advice on board. thumbsup

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 9:11 pm

But playing 13 in the lead up miaow didn't mean anything as they were warm ups surely? Were they the games you basing his 13 performances on?

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Post by Taylorman on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 9:18 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Pie wrote:well done ENG now do us all a favor and knock NZ off their perch

Thanks. We shall try.

Shocked

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Post by Taylorman on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 9:21 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:England's last 5 results against Australia have remarkably similar second half scores:

2016 24- 5
2017 24- 6
2018 24- 6
2019 23- 7


Gosh, eerie...

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Post by LondonTiger on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 9:25 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:But playing 13 in the lead up miaow didn't mean anything as they were warm ups surely? Were they the games you basing his 13 performances on?

Sometimes 7.5 it is time to let a fish go. Cut the line, sit back, drink a beer and watch the setting sun. Would have made Moby Dick a much better book.

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