QF2 - Match Thread - New Zealand v Ireland - 19/10/19 - K/O 11:15 BST

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Post by miaow on Thu 10 Oct 2019, 6:31 pm

First topic message reminder :

Thought I'd get these made nice and early for a few reasons - but one being that we're already now looking ahead to the QFs with several teams having finished their group stage, so it's all heating up for the proper knockout stuff...barring any more disruption.

NZ

QF2 - Match Thread - New Zealand v Ireland - 19/10/19 - K/O 11:15 BST - Page 14 1538347555208

Team: B Barrett; Reece, Goodhue, Lienert-Brown, Bridge; Mo'unga, Smith; Moody, Taylor, Laulala, Retallick, Whitelock; Savea, Cane, Reid.

Replacements: Coles, Tuungafasi, Ta'avao, S Barrett, Todd, Perenara, Williams, J Barrett.


Ireland

QF2 - Match Thread - New Zealand v Ireland - 19/10/19 - K/O 11:15 BST - Page 14 Irish-rugby-fans-1024x677

Team: Kearney; Earls, Ringrose, Henshaw, Stockdale; Sexton, Murray; Healy, Best, Furlong, Henderson, James Ryan, O'Mahony; Van der Flier, Stander.

Replacements: Scannell, Kilcoyne, Porter, Beirne, Ruddock, McGrath, Carbery, Larmour.



Venue: Tokyo
Referee: Nigel Owens
AR1: Pascal Gauzere
AR2: Angus Gardiner
TMO: Graham Hughes


Last edited by miaow on Thu 24 Oct 2019, 1:53 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Post by Gooseberry on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 7:45 pm

Why dont you just do the Haka during God Save The Queen then no-one can moan and we dont have to sit around waiting for the game to start?

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Post by Taylorman on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 8:02 pm

Gooseberry wrote:Why dont you just do the Haka during God Save The Queen then no-one can moan and we dont have to sit around waiting for the game to start?

Because we respect the playing of another's anthem. We dont do 'why don't you just do's...' We (mostly) try to maintain an understanding of all cultures.

Though some might now, and they would equally frowned upon.

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Post by Taylorman on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 8:52 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
Taylorman wrote:It’s disrespectful because it’s not done here. I’m not saying it’s wrong in the context of this sporting tournament but in terms of the Maori culture it’s definitely disrespectful.
We've been down this road before. Apparently, it's not disrespectful when drug dealers and gang rapists in the Mongrel Mob do the haka while wearing jackets with nazi insignia, but it is when anyone else does anything other than look on in silence when it is performed. As youngsters used to say: go figure.  You can't even respond to a haka with your own cultural gesture without being accused of disrespect, as the Taiwanese softball team discovered.

https://www.flava.co.nz/the-latest/nz-white-sox-are-majorly-disrespected-by-chinese-taipei-softball-team-after-haka/

'Apparently, it's not disrespectful when drug dealers and gang rapists in the Mongrel Mob do the haka while wearing jackets with nazi insignia'

Do you have evidence of that Rugby? care to share where that has been determined as not disrespectful?

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Post by miaow on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 8:55 pm

Taylorman wrote:

When did I say I did. I enjoyed it, but I know there will be those that don't, simply because we are taught to respect it. They don't cover 'sporting occasions' when teaching Tikanga Maori so its unexplored in that respect. I see some are getting g all excited so clearly its ruffled feathers.
I enjoyed it, just saying others won't, and haka has more meaning than a game if rugby to some. So I wouldn't be surprised if there's a move to remove it altogether. Not saying that's good either.
It is what it is.


Perhaps just speak for yourself then as you make clunky, nonsensical points that now you're passing off to hypothetical people. Best to just back your own words. Also don't think anyone's 'ruffled'. Just tired of you talking balls and gleaning...what...happiness?...from Ireland losing and their 'tears'...tbh...

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Post by miaow on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 8:56 pm

Taylorman wrote:
There is no difference between drowning out an anthem and drowning out the haka. To some. You're just claiming what are acceptable norms within your own belief system. As am I. No more, no less.

Ok, so you believe it is, as it is unacceptable in your belief system.

Why?

Would be good to just stick to specifics.

Thanks.

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Post by Old Man on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 9:01 pm

Logically speaking there is a difference.

In most sporting codes when two nations compete the anthems are sang as a symbol of those countries competing identities.

The Haka is a symbol of a native tradition / culture of New Zealand.

So not the same thing

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Post by Taylorman on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 9:11 pm

Your flag is not a symbol of a native tradition/ culture?

Interesting. Ours is.


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Post by Old Man on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 9:37 pm

really?

You don’t get national identity over cultural traditions of a native population?

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Post by Taylorman on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 9:52 pm

I don't separate it out as easily. Our flag has the union jack and the southern cross, and that represents 'roughly' albeit from a colonial perspective, the origins of those people that inhabit this country.

One of those is Maori. Both the flag, and Maori, are represented by traditions and culture, one of those being haka.

Universally, in sport, its traditional to be silent and respect one anothers flag.

In terms of haka, its traditional to respond with the same. Thats why you see the Island nations both going at it either at the same time, or one after the other. But in doing so, its inclusive in its celebration. One respects the other.

In International sport, that some sides dont have the equivalent has sprung 'offshoots', some not so positive, simply because the concept is foreign and whenever that exists, seen as threatening.

There is a 'choice' that mostly ignorant folks make thinking the haka is 'bad for their team' so they feel the need to 'get one up'...somehow.

I don't really care how they do it, but from our perspective some do end up looking rather silly. As I'm sure the haka does, especially if theyre culturally unaware, as say Gary Lineekar was.

Put simply, the uneducated simply dont know what to do, so they all sing 'swing low' or otherwise to feel better about it all.

Which is fine.

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Post by theslosty on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 10:16 pm

I'm not going to pretend I'm well informed of the cultural sensitivities surrounding the haka but I still think the Irish fans singing Fields of Athenry was more acknowledging and responding to the challenge laid down by the ABs and was done to lift the Irish players. It's hardly like the song is offensive in any way. Booing would be disrespectful to the haka, this just added to the occasion and set things up nicely imo even if the contest didn't live up to it.
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Post by Taylorman on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 10:34 pm

Yeah fair enough, if only live on TV I thought it suddenly lifted the occasion about a hundred feet off the ground it was collectively so intense so with you on that. I guess unfortunately for the team they were still required to be still but hopefully would have got the collective vibe of the crowd support.

I just hope there aren't moves to try and curtail it for the semi. For pure entertainment and intensity you couldnt beat it.

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Post by Scottrf on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 10:42 pm

I don't think there will be, there can't be many as hysterical as you about it.

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Post by miaow on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 10:57 pm

Taylorman wrote:

In International sport, that some sides dont have the equivalent has sprung 'offshoots', some not so positive, simply because the concept is foreign and whenever that exists, seen as threatening.


The throat slitting gesture makes it pretty clear it literally is threatening. That's not even up for debate.

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Post by Taylorman on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 11:28 pm

miaow wrote:
Taylorman wrote:

In International sport, that some sides dont have the equivalent has sprung 'offshoots', some not so positive, simply because the concept is foreign and whenever that exists, seen as threatening.


The throat slitting gesture makes it pretty clear it literally is threatening. That's not even up for debate.

Yeah it is, cos you don't make the rules sunshine. thumbsup

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Post by miaow on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 11:43 pm

Exactly. So it's threatening. Why respect that with silence?

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Post by Taylorman on Mon 21 Oct 2019, 12:19 am

Good point, maybe someone can answer that? There see, it is up for debate.

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Post by miaow on Mon 21 Oct 2019, 12:22 am

Don't think anyone suggested it wasn't?

Either way, singing seems fair enough until that topic is smoothed over and we can decide whether or not the throat slitting and limb slapping deserves the reverence of silence, or if a patriotic aural retort is fair enough given the circumstances.

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Post by Taylorman on Mon 21 Oct 2019, 12:37 am

Yes it does, and I look forward to it this weekend because it certainly sets the scene for a great encounter, which I see Eddie has now turned his focus on NZ, predictable as ever calling the Abs the greatest sports team i the history of dot.

Thats where he and Cheika were so different in their approaches.

Cheika refused to call them the All Blacks, and insisted his team call them NZ as well.

Jones is smarter, right out of the Hansen book. Praise the hek out of the opposition outwardly and leave them nothing to use.

Let the secound round of games begin. Jones provides far more interest in that regard. Still guessing he won't be able to help himself though as the media pile the pressure on him and his side.

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Post by rodders on Mon 21 Oct 2019, 11:37 am

Haven't read back but well done NZ, the ABs were just on a different level and better in every aspect. It's hard to see past NZ winning but England and probably SA will give a much sterner test.

From an Ireland point of view it is bitterly disappointing for Schmidt and Rory to go out with such a dire performance but unfortunate it was consistent with the stuttering form we've seen since the 6N. i had hoped we had something else in the locker and the Japan and 6N performances weren't a true reflection of were we were at but unfortunately that wasn't the case.

It's hard to pick any positives, Larmour looked sharp when he came on and we rallied a bit to get a couple of tries when it could have been 50-60 points to nil but really that was shambolic.

I don't think it should tarnish Joe's legacy but in hindsight it is clear we peaked last season and have been going through the motions since and maybe things just went stale despite the soundbites about how things were good in the camp.

Farrell will have some challenge picking up the pieces but at least for him expectations will be fairly low going into the 6N.

Best is gone, Sexton and Kearney look past it, and maybe we've seen the best of Healy, POM, Earls and Murray too. There is quite a bit of rebuilding to do.
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Post by Ninjarugby on Mon 21 Oct 2019, 2:27 pm

With all the disappointment of Saturday really a good idea to argue about the haka and what it means and doesn't mean.
This is just frustration coming out.
For me Rory Best looked a little deflated after facing the haka. I suspect Ireland were told they were not allowed to make a statement against it.
One of his 1st throws in the line-out was a defensive one when it should have been an attacking one. Hindsight is brilliant but easy to see NZ had put a lot of work into defending against our rolling maul & it a defensive line-out was definitely the wrong option. This all stems from Best's lack of confidence in that area.
I understand Sexton trying to get every inch out of the first penalty to the corner but this again stems from his lack of confidence in the line-out.
No good in POM stealing a line-out when he cost us any chance of getting a score before half time. At least that would have given us hope at half time. I get it he plays on the edge but that was a pretty stupid clear out.
Schmidt didn't develop our game and as a result we are on the plane home now.
Why bring Klein, he played like an hour and maybe a little more against the weaker opponents. Bring Toner and don't upset the apple cart. Maybe his big immobile frame could have helped on Saturday.
That said we have had a very successful time under Schmidt and he should be remembered for that.
Now its up to Andy Farrell to plan for the future.
If you do learn from your mistakes he has 2015/2019 WC's to learn from and take Ireland forward.
Baby steps. We have Scotland/Wales at home to start so he needs a fast one.
Personally I'd like to see at least 5 new faces in the new squad for the 6 Nations.
No one would have beaten NZ in the mood they were in on Saturday. It was perfect rugby for 60 or 70 minutes so I for one won't be hard on the team. We still have quite a bit of improving to do regardless of what the IRFU would have us believe.
NZ v Eng, been waiting quite a long time for NZ to shut E Jones up!

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Post by Scottrf on Mon 21 Oct 2019, 2:31 pm

Ninjarugby wrote:For me Rory Best looked a little deflated after facing the haka.

I thought he looked super emotional.

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Post by SecretFly on Mon 21 Oct 2019, 3:14 pm

Ninjarugby wrote:With all the disappointment of Saturday really a good idea to argue about the haka and what it means and doesn't mean.
This is just frustration coming out.
For me Rory Best looked a little deflated after facing the haka. I suspect Ireland were told they were not allowed to make a statement against it.

I don't actually get this section, especially the highlighted bit, Ninja.

What would Ireland be making a statement against?

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Post by The Great Aukster on Mon 21 Oct 2019, 6:07 pm

Ninjarugby wrote:No one would have beaten NZ in the mood they were in on Saturday. It was perfect rugby for 60 or 70 minutes so I for one won't be hard on the team. We still have quite a bit of improving to do regardless of what the IRFU would have us believe.
NZ v Eng, been waiting quite a long time for NZ to shut E Jones up!
Agree with that part Ninja - probably because it contradicts the rest of your post.

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Post by Pie on Mon 21 Oct 2019, 6:14 pm

Taylorman wrote:You bid what? Farewell to the comp? laughing

But jesting aside, good luck vs France. May the hills and valleys be singing and chirping tomorrow. Very Happy

Illiterate as well as ignorant, why doesn't that surprise me

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Post by Taylorman on Mon 21 Oct 2019, 6:36 pm

Ninjarugby wrote:With all the disappointment of Saturday really a good idea to argue about the haka and what it means and doesn't mean.
This is just frustration coming out.
For me Rory Best looked a little deflated after facing the haka. I suspect Ireland were told they were not allowed to make a statement against it.
One of his 1st throws in the line-out was a defensive one when it should have been an attacking one. Hindsight is brilliant but easy to see NZ had put a lot of work into defending against our rolling maul & it a defensive line-out was definitely the wrong option. This all stems from Best's lack of confidence in that area.
I understand Sexton trying to get every inch out of the first penalty to the corner but this again stems from his lack of confidence in the line-out.
No good in POM stealing a line-out when he cost us any chance of getting a score before half time. At least that would have given us hope at half time. I get it he plays on the edge but that was a pretty stupid clear out.
Schmidt didn't develop our game and as a result  we are on the plane home now.
Why bring Klein, he played like an hour and maybe a little more against the weaker opponents. Bring Toner and don't upset the apple cart. Maybe his big immobile frame could have helped on Saturday.
That said we have had a very successful time under Schmidt and he should be remembered for that.
Now its up to Andy Farrell to plan for the future.
If you do learn from your mistakes he has 2015/2019 WC's to learn from and take Ireland forward.
Baby steps. We have Scotland/Wales at home to start so he needs a fast one.
Personally I'd like to see at least 5 new faces in the new squad for the 6 Nations.
No one would have beaten NZ in the mood they were in on Saturday. It was perfect rugby for 60 or 70 minutes so I for one won't be hard on the team. We still have quite a bit of improving to do regardless of what the IRFU would have us believe.
NZ v Eng, been waiting quite a long time for NZ to shut E Jones up!

Great post, must admit I don’t get the Toner thing, especially for a World Cup which is about passion and pride playing for your country. I couldn’t believe Schmidt went with an outsider so close to the tournament. Not only does it infer a lack of confidence in a long serving team mate, it reflects, in my opinion, Schmidt’s disregard for the Irish psyche, and what it means to play for Ireland. Just about to go into the tournament he selects an outsider in what was really a hairline difference between the two.

I don’t think in the end Schmidt ever did master how the World Cup works, how the prep and lead up work from 12-24 months earlier all lead to what it takes in the knockouts, as both times he’s been found out before half time. In knockouts your side MUST be playing the best rugby it has played in that four year period. That’s what Hansen has learned and the quarter is key to that, both France in 2015 and Ireland in 2019 two of the most clinical efforts in the last 8 years. There’s no coincidence there. Ireland brought along its 6N side, and thought that would be enough.

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Post by Taylorman on Mon 21 Oct 2019, 6:39 pm

Pie wrote:
Taylorman wrote:You bid what? Farewell to the comp? laughing

But jesting aside, good luck vs France. May the hills and valleys be singing and chirping tomorrow. Very Happy

Illiterate as well as ignorant, why doesn't that surprise me

Really? I think the luck I wished you here just may have given you the win. Cheer up pie, you’ve a big match to prepare your side for. Not sure the luck will visit twice somehow.

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Post by Ninjarugby on Tue 22 Oct 2019, 7:59 am

SecretFly wrote:
Ninjarugby wrote:With all the disappointment of Saturday really a good idea to argue about the haka and what it means and doesn't mean.
This is just frustration coming out.
For me Rory Best looked a little deflated after facing the haka. I suspect Ireland were told they were not allowed to make a statement against it.

I don't actually get this section, especially the highlighted bit, Ninja.

What would Ireland be making a statement against?

Ok bad English or misuse on my part so apologies for the confusion. In 2016 the Irish team made a figure of 8 as a tribute to Anthony Foley & many say it was the emotion used in the right way to get the right result. That day nobody would have beaten Ireland, I believe.
Last year the team took a step forward after the Haka. That for me was a statement that Ireland would not take a step back on the day & in fairness they didn't. They defended the line and no tries were scored against them.
In fairness I just got into the bar at the end of the Haka & maybe I was hoping for something similar. That didn't happen and Ireland were well & truly blown away. Every time Ireland do well against the AB's they have very fast start. Not rocket science. By taking that away from them they were 22 - 0 down at half time. I know not their fault as NZ played near perfect rugby.
I hope this clarifies.

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Post by SecretFly on Tue 22 Oct 2019, 9:09 am

Yep, get it now. OK

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Post by The Great Aukster on Tue 22 Oct 2019, 11:30 am

Ninjarugby wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Ninjarugby wrote:With all the disappointment of Saturday really a good idea to argue about the haka and what it means and doesn't mean.
This is just frustration coming out.
For me Rory Best looked a little deflated after facing the haka. I suspect Ireland were told they were not allowed to make a statement against it.

I don't actually get this section, especially the highlighted bit, Ninja.

What would Ireland be making a statement against?

Ok bad English or misuse on my part so apologies for the confusion. In 2016 the Irish team made a figure of 8 as a tribute to Anthony Foley & many say it was the emotion used in the right way to get the right result. That day nobody would have beaten Ireland, I believe.
Last year the team took a step forward after the Haka. That for me was a statement that Ireland would not take a step back on the day & in fairness they didn't. They defended the line and no tries were scored against them.
In fairness I just got into the bar at the end of the Haka & maybe I was hoping for something similar. That didn't happen and Ireland were well & truly blown away. Every time Ireland do well against the AB's they have  very fast start. Not rocket science. By taking that away from them they were 22 - 0  down at half time. I know not their fault as NZ played near perfect rugby.
I hope this clarifies.

Best might have been confused by the words - this would have been more up his street?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjfVx5tYXLA

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Post by rodders on Tue 22 Oct 2019, 11:50 am

Taylorman wrote:
I don’t think in the end Schmidt ever did master how the World Cup works, how the prep and lead up work from 12-24 months earlier all lead to what it takes in the knockouts, as both times he’s been found out before half time. In knockouts your side MUST be playing the best rugby it has played in that four year period. That’s what Hansen has learned and the quarter is key to that, both France in 2015 and Ireland in 2019 two of the most clinical efforts in the last 8 years. There’s no coincidence there. Ireland brought along its 6N side, and thought that would be enough.

I agree with that. Schmidt's approach is built on ultra detailed analysis of the opposition and determining an intricate and often complex tactics and power plays and that requires time to prepare and perfect.

This may work well in terms of the 6N where we know the opposition, the AIs when fixtures are known well in advance or Club knockout when there is a good gap between rounds.

Unfortunately in the RWC with the short turn arounds between games this doesn't work well at all, I'd bet we had a pretty well drilled plan for the boks, as we did against the Scots. I think we underestimated Japan, and the conditions and really that was the downfall before NZ put us out of our misery. By contrast Wales have a very simple game plan but do it well.

I think the other side is that the IRFU are so focused on 6N and AI for commercial reasons we aren't preparing far enough out the way other top sides are. The 4 sides in the SF plus Japan were clearly better conditioned.
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Post by Ninjarugby on Tue 22 Oct 2019, 2:28 pm

How do Ireland break this cycle? I for one thought that Schmidt had managed to do it but not so.
2003, we scraped past Arg & in the 1/4 final France blew us out of the water before we even fired a shot.
2007, no point in going there, 4 bad games.
2011, we surprised ourselves & everybody & beat Aus but were a shadow of the team against Wales. High hope at the start that lasted only for the group stage.
2015, we expected to win the group but the France game put an end to any real hope of beating Argentina. Madigan was picked off the back of the French result & Chris Henry was no international 7.
I said our back row needed to deliver but all 8 were bullied.
What does Farrell or the IRFU do to break the cycle? The Welsh players and their teams totally under perform in the Heineken Cup (Champions Cup) and this is their 3rd semi-final in a row. There's no way the Welsh players are better than ours. We had a world class coach.
He never really got the better of Gatland over their head to heads. Eddie Jones figured him out.
So what does Farrell do now? I'm not convinced by Mike Catt either. Lets see what our attack looks like 1st Feb 2020.

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Post by miaow on Tue 22 Oct 2019, 3:45 pm

QF in 2015 for Wales, but point taken, Ninja. Big disparity between club  and country for Wales. I'd argue that you under-rate the Welsh players. To a man, particularly in the backs, I'd say the Welsh are better. It's the forward grizzle where Ireland have the edge, but then they don't have it over other countries like England or SA or NZ, and so their point of difference over Wales is largely nullified against other teams.

As an aside, and a clear indication that the model of rugby Schmidt had doesn't really cut it - not just against NZ, but also a more vibrant England, and a dedicated Japan side - where does this leave Gatland in 2021?

Yes, yes, I konw it's perhaps not the thread to ask, and that Farrell is HIGHLY unlikely to join up with the Lions again (I'd imagine it will be the last hurrah for Shaun Edwards and Gatland tbh). The worry is, with 18 months out of the NH, is he going to select guys like Connor Murray on past form? I cannot see a 9 who's readily placed to usurp Murray and play the faster, zippier game Ireland probably now need to play; I also don't think Farrell is the coach to demand that, either.

The way Ireland adapt will no doubt be crucial for the Lions, and yes, it's not what Irish fans care about - some hate it, clearly - and at this time, it's not a concern. But with Gatland coaching in NZ, you''d have to think he'll be picking someone who stays close to the NH scene - presumably Edwards with France as he'll have time to study the club and country form of all 4 nations - but even then, might it all come crashed down in 2021 for Warren if the missing ingredient is he ends up relying on too many old boys like Murray? Not sure, all hypotheticals at this point, but in terms of style, Schmidt and Gatland aren't far away, and I think there's a relation in the wider point with the way the Lions, Ireland, and Wales are all going to adapt in the coaching change that will occur post-RWC.

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Post by rodders on Tue 22 Oct 2019, 4:46 pm

Ninjarugby wrote:How do Ireland break this cycle? I for one thought that Schmidt had managed to do it but not so.
2003, we scraped past Arg & in the 1/4 final France blew us out of the water before we even fired a shot.
2007, no point in going there, 4 bad games.
2011, we surprised ourselves & everybody & beat Aus but were a shadow of the team against Wales.

See I'm not convinced there is a pattern, too much was made of this semi final target and winning KO game. At the end of the day you either win a tournament or you don't, going out in the QF or SF is going to be a failure for any top team.

We've become far too fixated on getting beyond a QF, if there is a pattern it is the failure to produce top form consistently enough to even look like contenders, once a tournament kicks off bar the odd one off decent performance like in 2003 or 2011.

Was this is bad as 2007? I'd suggest if we'd have been in a tougher group we may well have not made the QF this time and vice versa in 2007.
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Post by Taylorman on Tue 22 Oct 2019, 5:07 pm

rodders wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
I don’t think in the end Schmidt ever did master how the World Cup works, how the prep and lead up work from 12-24 months earlier all lead to what it takes in the knockouts, as both times he’s been found out before half time. In knockouts your side MUST be playing the best rugby it has played in that four year period. That’s what Hansen has learned and the quarter is key to that, both France in 2015 and Ireland in 2019 two of the most clinical efforts in the last 8 years. There’s no coincidence there. Ireland brought along its 6N side, and thought that would be enough.

I agree with that. Schmidt's approach is built on ultra detailed analysis of the opposition and determining an intricate and often complex tactics and power plays and that requires time to prepare and perfect.

This may work well in terms of the 6N where we know the opposition, the AIs when fixtures are known well in advance or Club knockout when there is a good gap between rounds.

Unfortunately in the RWC with the short turn arounds between games this doesn't work well at all, I'd bet we had a pretty well drilled plan for the boks, as we did against the Scots. I think we underestimated Japan, and the conditions and really that was the downfall before NZ put us out of our misery. By contrast Wales have a very simple game plan but do it well.

I think the other side is that the IRFU are so focused on 6N and AI for commercial reasons we aren't preparing far enough out the way other top sides are. The 4 sides in the SF plus Japan were clearly better conditioned.        

Yes in 2013 Ireland got off to a great start, three tries in 25 minutes or something like that. Same in Chicago. And by last week the entire rugby world knew if you get Ireland down, they usually stay down.

So stands to reason that Ireland were treated to probably one of the fiercest starts they’ve ever faced in that quarter, I know Aaron Smith kept banging on about the start being key, and it was, it sealed the match.

Hopefully with England’s slower start vs Oz we can do the same.

Looking forward to seeing a new Ireland outfit. Schmidt’s staying on in Ireland so he’s bound to get itchy feet and get picked up somewhere? Maybe Nuciforas position if he gets lulled back after the Cheika wake.

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Post by The Great Aukster on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 7:50 am

rodders wrote:
Ninjarugby wrote:How do Ireland break this cycle? I for one thought that Schmidt had managed to do it but not so.
2003, we scraped past Arg & in the 1/4 final France blew us out of the water before we even fired a shot.
2007, no point in going there, 4 bad games.
2011, we surprised ourselves & everybody & beat Aus but were a shadow of the team against Wales.

See I'm not convinced there is a pattern, too much was made of this semi final target and winning KO game. At the end of the day you either win a tournament or you don't, going out in the QF or SF is going to be a failure for any top team.

We've become far too fixated on getting beyond a QF, if there is a pattern it is the failure to produce top form consistently enough to even look like contenders, once a tournament kicks off bar the odd one off decent performance like in 2003 or 2011.

Was this is bad as 2007? I'd suggest if we'd have been in a tougher group we may well have not made the QF this time and vice versa in 2007.      
Is it about fixation, or are Ireland simply performing to their actual capability? In other words Ireland are a top eight side and sometimes will be higher and sometimes lower?

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Post by Ninjarugby on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 8:21 am

The Great Aukster wrote:
rodders wrote:
Ninjarugby wrote:How do Ireland break this cycle? I for one thought that Schmidt had managed to do it but not so.
2003, we scraped past Arg & in the 1/4 final France blew us out of the water before we even fired a shot.
2007, no point in going there, 4 bad games.
2011, we surprised ourselves & everybody & beat Aus but were a shadow of the team against Wales.

See I'm not convinced there is a pattern, too much was made of this semi final target and winning KO game. At the end of the day you either win a tournament or you don't, going out in the QF or SF is going to be a failure for any top team.

We've become far too fixated on getting beyond a QF, if there is a pattern it is the failure to produce top form consistently enough to even look like contenders, once a tournament kicks off bar the odd one off decent performance like in 2003 or 2011.

Was this is bad as 2007? I'd suggest if we'd have been in a tougher group we may well have not made the QF this time and vice versa in 2007.      
Is it about fixation, or are Ireland simply performing to their actual capability? In other words Ireland are a top eight side and sometimes will be higher and sometimes lower?

Well what ever it is it won't go away as its out there already. No matter what happens it will be in the back of everybody's minds. That won't go away until we break through and get to a semi-final.
But the AB's (and that is what every team need to aspire to), want to keep getting better every game.
Ireland are improving just not at the rate we want to and quite often we are not as good as we think we are!
Ireland were better under Schmidt than we were under Kidney who in turn were better than we were under EOS. That is progress.
Now the trick is for Ireland to be better under Farrell which is not going to be easy.
We play NZ 3 times in summer 2022 and we have to target at least one win. If we play to SA in SA we have to target a series win.
We have to keep and get back our good home record. I think its important we win all 3 home games in the 6 Nations as they are Scotland, Wales & Italy. Also Ireland have a very good recent record against France, (started by Kidney). That needs to continue.

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Post by Old Man on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 8:32 am

Ninjarugby wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
rodders wrote:
Ninjarugby wrote:How do Ireland break this cycle? I for one thought that Schmidt had managed to do it but not so.
2003, we scraped past Arg & in the 1/4 final France blew us out of the water before we even fired a shot.
2007, no point in going there, 4 bad games.
2011, we surprised ourselves & everybody & beat Aus but were a shadow of the team against Wales.

See I'm not convinced there is a pattern, too much was made of this semi final target and winning KO game. At the end of the day you either win a tournament or you don't, going out in the QF or SF is going to be a failure for any top team.

We've become far too fixated on getting beyond a QF, if there is a pattern it is the failure to produce top form consistently enough to even look like contenders, once a tournament kicks off bar the odd one off decent performance like in 2003 or 2011.

Was this is bad as 2007? I'd suggest if we'd have been in a tougher group we may well have not made the QF this time and vice versa in 2007.      
Is it about fixation, or are Ireland simply performing to their actual capability? In other words Ireland are a top eight side and sometimes will be higher and sometimes lower?

Well what ever it is it won't go away as its out there already. No matter what happens it will be in the back of everybody's minds. That won't go away until we break through and get to a semi-final.
But the AB's (and that is what every team need to aspire to), want to keep getting better every game.
Ireland are improving just not at the rate we want to and quite often we are not as good as we think we are!
Ireland were better under Schmidt than we were under Kidney who in turn were better than we were under EOS. That is progress.
Now the trick is for Ireland to be better under Farrell which is not going to be easy.
We play NZ 3 times in summer 2022 and we have to target at least one win. If we play to SA in SA we have to target a series win.
We have to keep and get back our good home record. I think its important we win all 3 home games in the 6 Nations as they are Scotland, Wales & Italy. Also Ireland have a very good recent record against France, (started by Kidney). That needs to continue.

Only New Zealand has ever won a series in South Africa. Ireland will be in very good company if they can muster that.

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Post by Engine#4 on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 8:33 am

I think there has been a fixation. The media has been banging on about this idea that a QF is an albatross around Ireland's neck for 4 years. I don't see how losing in the QF vs SF makes much difference if any.

You could say that a top 8 exit is in line with where the team is at this year. However as regards Ireland's 'potential' this kind of ignores all of dropped balls, line errors, missed kicks. The NZ defence, as has been analysed in detail, had holes and we had opportunities. It looked more like the team choked to me and as Taylor has been roaring for months this team hasn't shown much capacity to claw a game back when down early.


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Post by Taylorman on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 8:35 am

Besides the 74 Lions that is. A great side.

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Post by Old Man on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 8:35 am

Yeah I am thinking Countries. The Lions also won in 1997.

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Post by Galted on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 8:50 am

Old Man wrote:Yeah I am thinking Countries. The Lions also won in 1997.

I'm sure France have as well.
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Post by Old Man on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 8:53 am

Yes my apologies, 1958

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Post by Taylorman on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 8:58 am

Yep, SA got their win in NZ really early...1937 with Cravens side, but then didn’t win another. Lions won here in 71. They were good those tour days. Not that I saw any of them, bar Lions 77, the last big one here.

All Blacks lost a lot more back then to the clubs...Newport, Cardiff, Llanelli, Munster, Midland Counties?, northern Transvaal, Western province etc.

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 9:55 am

58. Me and Google remember it well.....

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