Scotland post mortem

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Post by NeilyBroon on Sun 13 Oct 2019, 1:49 pm

First topic message reminder :

So we're oot.

Question is... what now?

Do we think toonie will stay? If he does take the can which seems quite likely then who do we get to replace him?

I think this has to be the end of a few players too. We can't keep picking people on past form.
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Post by George Carlin on Tue 15 Oct 2019, 9:11 am

CaptainHaddock wrote:TBH if we could secure the services of Scott Robertson we'd be absolute mugs not to. The transformation he has wrought at the 'saders and the way he has them playing rugby is fantastic. he's tactically switched on, he knows how to get a team winning.
Welcome Captain. OK New to these boards or a long time lurker?
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Post by SecretFly on Tue 15 Oct 2019, 9:34 am

Kinda knew World Rugby would hold a grudge about this one. When you're down, they have the street fighter ethic of kicking you some more to teach you a lesson not to cross them again.

"Our legal team are bigger than your legal team" seems to be the lesson being taught now.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Tue 15 Oct 2019, 9:47 am

George Carlin wrote:
CaptainHaddock wrote:TBH if we could secure the services of Scott Robertson we'd be absolute mugs not to. The transformation he has wrought at the 'saders and the way he has them playing rugby is fantastic. he's tactically switched on, he knows how to get a team winning.
Welcome Captain.  OK New to these boards or a long time lurker?

Half the rugby world will be watching and waiting to see what happens after Robertson has his AB interview in December. Winning 51 of 56 games and picking up three Super titles is some record. At the same time as managing the transition from some big names to the next generation.

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Post by BigGee on Tue 15 Oct 2019, 10:49 am

Exsctly, he is pissibly the most jn demznd coach in the world right now and until that piece of the jigsaw gets pi ked and placed, no-one will know what to do with the other bits.

December is way to late for a change pre 6N, so Toonie will stay now

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Post by bsando on Tue 15 Oct 2019, 1:30 pm

I am fully expecting Toonie to see out his contract going by press and interviews. Dodson seems a pragmatic man though and he had balls to pursue a legal challenge against World Rugby in my opinion. He probably over stepped the mark a little bit but he’s definitely reigned it in since. My point being, I think Dodson will always do what is best for Scottish rugby. Sacking Toonie after a wooden spoon finish would not surprise me at all.

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Post by reallybored on Tue 15 Oct 2019, 1:46 pm

I'm all for Jamie Ritchie as captain; hasn't had a bad game for Scotland yet, captain through age-grades, versatile but should be nailed on, captains in back-row can get away with murder, has the right attitude.

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Post by 123456789. on Tue 15 Oct 2019, 1:55 pm

Issue with Jamie Ritchie is whether he's an automatic starter. To me he's the natural successor to Barclay at blindside once Hamish Watson is back. But then Bradbury and Thomson have both looked very decent and Watson is world class. Matt Fagerson will come into the reckoning also. World Cup debacles tend to have the effect of increasing the stock of the players who narrowly miss out. I'd expect Richie Gray (I know it's a different story there), Matt Fagerson, Rory Hutchinson and Huw Jones to come back to the fore. This of course raises the issue of Gregor Townsend admitting he made mistakes in the lead up to the world cup, if he isn't prepared to alter his path or change his focus then he's toast.

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Post by miaow on Tue 15 Oct 2019, 2:45 pm

George Carlin wrote:
Highland Shaun wrote:@BigGee,out of the list you posted, I would only consider Scott Robertson and, I will also add a name to the list, Pat Lam.

In no way will we get Schmidt, Gatland or Eddie Jones. Richard Cockerill and Dave Rennie would probably need to win trophies with their clubs first so, maybe in 5 years they will be ready.

Stuart Lancaster would not leave his current job but I would not say no to him, even though he is an Ex England coach.
I would also add Sean Edwards to that list. Yes, I said it.

You'll be gutted when you see Shaun Edwards lining up in the opposite coaching box when France come to Murrayfield if you do...

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Post by miaow on Tue 15 Oct 2019, 2:51 pm

Cannot see Pat Lam leaving club coaching any time soon. It has to be huge money to tempt him from Bristol and uproot his family. I also can't see him stepping back in to that as he's already had a crack with Samoa - it would be a strange time to hire him with the Bristol project just starting to tick, but who knows, maybe money talks.

Cannot see Scotland attracting Scott Robertson etc. What this RWC has proved is that there are opportunities outside Europe that prove just as financially rewarding and have different challenges as well. Namely Japan, but that will only grow as the US etc. get better. But Robertson's in line for the ABs job soon enough. Probably head to head with Gatland over the next 4 years. Why would he leave? There was talk of him coming to the Scarlets - in the end it was his assistant, so there it was as rumour distorted in translation - but we need a bit of perspective sometimes in the NH. There's no guarantee these men are motivated by money to the extent they'd turn their backs on something like prestige with the ABs, or their family's best interests. Maybe the money makes it worthwhile, it's hard to say how much the SRU will pay.

I think that's the 'good' part of LD's point, and one others have made - do Scotand have the pulling power of Wales or Ireland? Probably not.

EDIT: From a purely tactical point of view, Robertson has the best/most established 'franchise' in NZ. The Crusaders are the Leinster or Saracens of the South, full of money, in a wealthy area, prestige, some history from the club game etc.

Scotland should be looking at a man who can coach 'back foot' rugby if that's the way Scotland want/need to go. Basically, what EJ and Jamie Joseph have done with Japan. Gatland's approach was the opposite, it's been to shut down Wales' attacking instincts for the sake of 'wax on, wax off' basics - over and over and over until you stop making silly mistakes. I think Scotland need to do the same, get a coach who is aware of what it *actually* takes to coach a team at a structural/size disadvantage to the English, French, and even Irish and Welsh. Whether that means an intelligent running game, or becoming gritty and tough and Schmidt-esque in controlling the play, who knows. It's likely to be the former, in which case you still need someone to inject a bit of fight and heart.

Pat Lam honestly sounds ideal the more I think about it. I just can't see him taking the job.

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Post by miaow on Tue 15 Oct 2019, 3:01 pm

NeilyBroon wrote: Basically price has described our problem but instead called it our style. We're not NZ.

I hate this so much for so many reasons.

All it shows is that whoever is driving standards isn't coming from a place of holistic understanding.

It reminds me of when every team suddenly decided that, yes, Barcelona's tiki taka was *the*style, and we're going to pretend we're artistic and beautiful and cool and play like them as well. It reminds me exactly of Brendan Rodgers in the early days talking about 'style' and 'philosophy' - the only philosophy in sport i to win. Let others 'talk' about philosophy: not the players, not the coach, not anyone actually involved in its implementation. Your 'style' comes from actually winning games of rugby, not 'winning' the possession stats as it was for Rodgers, or minutes in play or 'speed' or whatever metric Townsend is happy to present the SRU to try and save his skin in the coming weeks.

I hate this so much.

Sport is about winning. Your primary focus is to win. If the way you play gets you there, great. That can have all manner of complexities but you don't 'start' from a place of 'we play it wide wide because we are artistes'. Na. Don't talk about style. Shows the priorities are off.

I have to say, everything about this is also why there have been so few Scottish Lions in spite of the individual talent. The mentality is all wrong.

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Post by bsando on Tue 15 Oct 2019, 3:03 pm

Well that would probably be Vern Cotter Miaow, he definitely reduced Scottish mistakes a good deal. Actually he also did a very good thing and took inspiration from Scotland sides of old which I really liked. The VC game plan was a good one, expansive rugby but not too complicated. Toonie took that over and added some extra spice (that NZ game in 2017 as an exemple). However it’s all gone a bit loose now, too many errors and not enough focus on building pressure, more tactical kicking.

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Post by tigertattie on Tue 15 Oct 2019, 3:45 pm

old coaching mind frame and saying:

You need to earn the right to wide before going wide

This is exactly our issue. We try to score off every pass, from every kick. We're obsessed with getting the ball to our allegedly world class back 3.

Scotland need to move away from the mantra of "we'll score more than you" and move to "we'll drop the ball less than you"

Rugby is a game for all shapes and sizes and its a balance between defence and attack. We need to have a more varied game plan and we need to play the opposition/weather/conditions more rather than just trying to fling the ball about.

We're unbelievably naive when we play. We don’t stick the ball up the jumper. we don’t build phases, we don’t change how we are playing to combat the opposition or adapt to how the ref is viewing things. It's just "give Finn the ball so he can get it to the fast boys as fast as we can"
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Post by bluestonevedder on Tue 15 Oct 2019, 3:46 pm

What's happened to John Hardie? Is he totally out of the Scotland picture now?

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Post by tigertattie on Tue 15 Oct 2019, 3:58 pm

bluestonevedder wrote:What's happened to John Hardie? Is he totally out of the Scotland picture now?

pretty much. He got himself into a spot of bother then moved to play for Newcastle who have just been relegated. With him out of the shop window and the coming of Hamish Watson and now Jamie Ritchie, he's fallen right off the radar.
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Post by miaow on Tue 15 Oct 2019, 3:59 pm

Apologies for perhaps labouring the point as well, but as we've dragged up US politics in to this (yesterday) it reminds me of something - basically the key issue with Townsend.

I remeber around the time of the 2016 US election and what felt, at times, like Hillary's attempts at coronation, what Christopher Hitchens had said/written about her - I paraphrase, but it was basically that 'the office of Presidency shouldn't be used as therapy'.

Basically, I wonder if there's just too much of that from Townsend - too much of 'using' the job of coach as an extension, a sticking plaster, and a purpose for the ways in which he failed to fully manifest as a player.

If it is, as I sense it might be, then it's time to get rid asap as it won't get better, and will probably get very worse towards the very end.

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Post by miaow on Tue 15 Oct 2019, 3:59 pm

bsando wrote:Well that would probably be Vern Cotter Miaow, he definitely reduced Scottish mistakes a good deal. Actually he also did a very good thing and took inspiration from Scotland sides of old which I really liked. The VC game plan was a good one, expansive rugby but not too complicated. Toonie took that over and added some extra spice (that NZ game in 2017 as an exemple). However it’s all gone a bit loose now, too many errors and not enough focus on building pressure, more tactical kicking.

Yes, from the outside, the best coach you could hav would be Cotter back - think most fans would want that if possible? Just seems totally unfeasible for several reasons.

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Post by bluestonevedder on Tue 15 Oct 2019, 4:26 pm

tigertattie wrote:
bluestonevedder wrote:What's happened to John Hardie? Is he totally out of the Scotland picture now?

pretty much. He got himself into a spot of bother then moved to play for Newcastle who have just been relegated. With him out of the shop window and the coming of Hamish Watson and now Jamie Ritchie, he's fallen right off the radar.

It's always a shame when one mistake seemingly leads to a whole series of events that seemingly end a career. I enjoyed his style of play and it was great to watch him at the 2015 WC.

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Post by BigGee on Tue 15 Oct 2019, 5:09 pm

I don't think he is quite the player he was then, age and the battering he inflicts on himself have taken their toll. He was good in the last WC though, will always remember that.

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Post by sensisball on Tue 15 Oct 2019, 5:48 pm

I remember Hardie making a succession of massive tackles and winning crucial turnovers in the Samoa game that saved our bacon. I always thought he was the main difference between winning and losing the match.

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Post by Pie on Tue 15 Oct 2019, 7:32 pm

You dont need a new coach to read Russell the riot act. I watched very closely as Scots kicked ball away nearly every time after 5 -6 phases.

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Post by miaow on Tue 15 Oct 2019, 7:48 pm

Never got the Hardie hype. Decent player, yes, he's a Kiwi after all, but no better than the potential Watson and now Ritchie show.

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Post by miaow on Tue 15 Oct 2019, 7:49 pm

Pie wrote:You dont need a new coach to read Russell the riot act. I watched very closely as Scots kicked ball away nearly every time after 5 -6 phases.

Picked the wrong parts of Rugby League to imitate...

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Post by NeilyBroon on Tue 15 Oct 2019, 8:34 pm

Ahh hard horse. I bet he had no problem hunting rabbits in the Pyrenees with stern vern.
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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 15 Oct 2019, 9:00 pm

A scotsman walks into an empty bar. 

The englishman, irishman and welshman are still at the world cup. 


(Too soon?)

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Post by NeilyBroon on Tue 15 Oct 2019, 9:02 pm

It's why our whisky is the best!
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Post by CaptainHaddock on Tue 15 Oct 2019, 9:20 pm

George Carlin wrote:
CaptainHaddock wrote:TBH if we could secure the services of Scott Robertson we'd be absolute mugs not to. The transformation he has wrought at the 'saders and the way he has them playing rugby is fantastic. he's tactically switched on, he knows how to get a team winning.
Welcome Captain.  OK New to these boards or a long time lurker?

Thanks GC. Long time lurker finally moved to comment as therapy for the agony which is being a Scotland supporter. :-)

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Post by BigGee on Tue 15 Oct 2019, 9:33 pm

You are in good compzny here!

Welcome

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Post by tigertattie on Tue 15 Oct 2019, 11:47 pm

BigGee wrote:You are in good compzny here!

Welcome

Yup. Misery loves company.

Pull up a chair. We have loads (misery and company)
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Post by George Carlin on Wed 16 Oct 2019, 8:36 am

miaow wrote:
bsando wrote:Well that would probably be Vern Cotter Miaow, he definitely reduced Scottish mistakes a good deal. Actually he also did a very good thing and took inspiration from Scotland sides of old which I really liked. The VC game plan was a good one, expansive rugby but not too complicated. Toonie took that over and added some extra spice (that NZ game in 2017 as an exemple). However it’s all gone a bit loose now, too many errors and not enough focus on building pressure, more tactical kicking.

Yes, from the outside, the best coach you could hav would be Cotter back - think most fans would want that if possible? Just seems totally unfeasible for several reasons.
Not least because Montpellier have a hell of a lot more money than the SRU. I recall that Cotter is the best paid club coach in the world game.
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Post by sensisball on Wed 16 Oct 2019, 9:01 am

He is now DoR at Montpellier having endured a poor season where they struggled home and away.
I fancy Vern prefers hand on coaching rather than dealing with the politics of the board room.
Maybe he would take a small pay drop to get back to the coaching coal face? The SRU can but ask.

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Post by BigGee on Wed 16 Oct 2019, 9:41 am

VC is in his last contracted year at Montpellier and has been shunted away from day to day coaching. He is almost certain to leave at the end of the season and rumours were that they would be happy to get him off the payroll sooner than that if they could (he is not cheap).

He seemed to enjoy his time in Scotland and we certainly enjoyed his tenure. I was there for his send off against Italy and it is hard to see Toonie getting a standing ovation from the whole crowd currently, should he decide to go.

There is however the old adage about not going back and it has good sense attached to it. How many coaches or managers really do well with their second bites at the cherry. From his perspective he has everything to lose and maybe not that much to gain. He is pretty financially set up now, so don't imagine that money would be his main motivator.

He has always talked about heading back to the farm in NZ as well at some point. The last coaching job has not gone so well either. Is he losing his touch or has just had enough?

All valid questions that would need to be answered prior to a VC return.

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Post by NeilyBroon on Wed 16 Oct 2019, 10:13 am

Im a big vern fan but think biggee is right here. How would it mentally affect him and the players would be my question. Vern left on a high and I'd rather remember it like that. It'd be unfair of the sru to d*ck around because of their mistake.

Unfortunately after taking many deep breaths i think our current option is the only feasible one. Shy of a triple crown I will not be satisfied. He's had plenty of time for "good" performances and they've just not surfaced since the switch from VC. So for me it's results or we get a new coach to make us play as a team. I am confident that in 6 months we'll have a new coach.

I'd look to the gallagher premiership or super league for anyone with a long-standing strong record. I also think an ex forward may be the way to go.
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Post by tigertattie on Wed 16 Oct 2019, 10:40 am

VC is a difficult one now for two reasons.

1. He may be losing the fire in his belly to coach and may look at going to NZ to enjoy a quieter life.
2. If he has the fire still, he may have aspirations of stepping up. If so, why would he want to return to the SRU who kicked him in the nuts so they could favour the chosen one (not so chosen now)

If it were me I'd be telling the SRU that if I want good enough for you two years ago, I'm not good enough for yo now. Now where's my beer, i'm off for a lay down in the sun!
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Post by EST on Wed 16 Oct 2019, 10:41 am

NeilyBroon wrote:Im a big vern fan but think biggee is right here. How would it mentally affect him and the players would be my question. Vern left on a high and I'd rather remember it like that. It'd be unfair of the sru to d*ck around because of their mistake.

Unfortunately after taking many deep breaths i think our current option is the only feasible one. Shy of a triple crown I will not be satisfied. He's had plenty of time for "good" performances and they've just not surfaced since the switch from VC. So for me it's results or we get a new coach to make us play as a team. I am confident that in 6 months we'll have a new coach.

I'd look to the gallagher premiership or super league for anyone with a long-standing strong record. I also think an ex forward may be the way to go.

I think you're right Neily. We have a really difficult 6 nations, three away games and Ireland first up at the Aviva followed up by England at home. I can see why the SRU are keeping him on, but I don't think his position will be tenable if we don't manage to pick up a couple of wins.

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Post by RDW on Wed 16 Oct 2019, 11:23 am

If Townsend does get his P45 before / after the 6N I wonder if Mallinder will be given charge of the summer tour with an aim to have someone in place permanently. Most coaches will be in contract until the summer.

Anyone know where the tour is? Would be good to 'rest' a number of old timers and give the young ones a chance.

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Post by robbo277 on Wed 16 Oct 2019, 11:33 am

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/fiji-set-for-massive-clash-at-beginning-of-2020-test-season/

Suggests Scotland will play 1 test against the ABs and possibly two against Fiji, Samoa or Tonga

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Post by tigertattie on Wed 16 Oct 2019, 11:59 am

robbo277 wrote:https://www.rugbypass.com/news/fiji-set-for-massive-clash-at-beginning-of-2020-test-season/

Suggests Scotland will play 1 test against the ABs and possibly two against Fiji, Samoa or Tonga

What? We're not in a tri team tourny wiht Italy agian? We love playing summer tours against teams we've already played earlier in the year!!!

Maybe other teams jsut dont want to play against us in case the game is cancelled due to an outbreak of the Zombie virus and we end up suing them for A) the game being cancelled or B) our players having thier brains eaten by Zombies!
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Post by 123456789. on Wed 16 Oct 2019, 12:21 pm

If you were VC would you come back to Scotland though? He signed a contract with two years before he started, did a fantastic job and was then shunted before he had a chance to finish the job. Would he be willing to risk it all happening again? It would also take Mark Dodson to eat a whopping, great humble pie.

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Post by SecretFly on Wed 16 Oct 2019, 12:56 pm

tigertattie wrote:
robbo277 wrote:https://www.rugbypass.com/news/fiji-set-for-massive-clash-at-beginning-of-2020-test-season/

Suggests Scotland will play 1 test against the ABs and possibly two against Fiji, Samoa or Tonga

What? We're not in a tri team tourny wiht Italy agian? We love playing summer tours against teams we've already played earlier in the year!!!

Maybe other teams jsut dont want to play against us in case the game is cancelled due to an outbreak of the Zombie virus and we end up suing them for A) the game being cancelled or B) our players having thier brains eaten by Zombies!

laughing Nobody feels safe signing a contract now with Ambulance Chasing Scots.

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Post by Tramptastic on Wed 16 Oct 2019, 12:58 pm

The SRU fluffed it with Cotter, we need to accept he's not coming back and it probably wouldn't work even if he did. Too many hurt feelings etc etc. They had an opportunity to get a hard nosed kiwi coach who understood the players and country he was coaching and was willing to be in for the long term, a la Gatland.

That boat has sailed.

We should resign ourselves to one more season of Townsend and if its truely awful, bin him, and hire somebody a bit more pragmatic. I don't think the pragmatic choice should be Cockerill, he's a club coach he enjoys the day to day, like Townsend.

We should be looking at another Gatland/Cotter type figure. Jamie Joseph would be good, Robertson would be an absolute coup if the all blacks decide he's not ready.

It's all a bit odd cause Cotter had a genuine interest in how Scotland used to play and he reportedly said he wanted the scotland job cause he was tired of french players slagging the Scots. Can we name anyone else in world rugby circles who has a genuine interest in the scottish game, outside of scotland? Nuh!

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Post by propdavid_london on Wed 16 Oct 2019, 1:05 pm

I am sure Jake White is a name that will be mentioned - like he is with every international coaching job Smile

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Post by George Carlin on Wed 16 Oct 2019, 1:09 pm

SecretFly wrote:
tigertattie wrote:
robbo277 wrote:https://www.rugbypass.com/news/fiji-set-for-massive-clash-at-beginning-of-2020-test-season/

Suggests Scotland will play 1 test against the ABs and possibly two against Fiji, Samoa or Tonga

What? We're not in a tri team tourny wiht Italy agian? We love playing summer tours against teams we've already played earlier in the year!!!

Maybe other teams jsut dont want to play against us in case the game is cancelled due to an outbreak of the Zombie virus and we end up suing them for A) the game being cancelled or B) our players having thier brains eaten by Zombies!

laughing Nobody feels safe signing a contract now with Ambulance Chasing Scots.
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Post by miaow on Wed 16 Oct 2019, 1:52 pm

I've met Vern and was impressed with how he spoke, his understanding and attitude to the game. But same goes for Dave Rennie. Of the coaches I've come across they're the 2 I'd have gone for for Wales, over Pivac, but hopefully that works out in the end. Not sure what the issue is with Rennie at Glasgow, but I'd say either of those 2 would improve this Scotland side immensely.

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Post by miaow on Wed 16 Oct 2019, 1:54 pm

NeilyBroon wrote:Shy of a triple crown I will not be satisfied.

A triple crown usually means a grand slam as well these days. Think that's a bit ambitious tbh.

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Post by SecretFly on Wed 16 Oct 2019, 2:04 pm

propdavid_london wrote:I am sure Jake White is a name that will be mentioned - like he is with every international coaching job Smile

There's something strange,
In your neighbourhood,
Who ya gonna call?.....

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Post by 123456789. on Wed 16 Oct 2019, 3:23 pm

Seems Townsend is in no imminent danger. Interesting to read between the lines though:

Gregor Townsend wrote:But ultimately I'm most disappointed with the last 15-20 minutes. We gave ourselves a tough position to come back from but I'm more disappointed with how we didn't win. I felt the momentum had swung and we should have kicked on, but that was when we were least accurate in attack. That's me [attack coach]. That's my area. The other part is defence. Defensively, we weren't good in that second quarter. Our defence is not up there with the best teams in the world. We've shown improvements, but you can't switch off.

Looks like Matt Taylor might be the fall guy.

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Post by tigertattie on Wed 16 Oct 2019, 3:30 pm

If it matters to you, it matters to Digby Brown!
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Post by jimbopip on Wed 16 Oct 2019, 8:22 pm

Gentlemen, I think it's time for me to come at this from a slightly different angle. Whistle

One argument posited on this thread in favour of reinstating BVC is that he never lost by more than 15 points and usually by less than 7.Except was he not in charge at Twickers when they stuffed us royally ? This does show his teams were competitive but he still lost a higher percentage of matches than Toonie. So we were losing more often than we were winning but we were usually coming a close second.
Two of the most exciting rugby matches I have ever watched were under Toonie; the 38-38 draw with Engurland and the Japan match. In case you hadn't noticed we didn't win either of those. Over the two games we were beaten by 7 points in total.
Two of the worst, most sickeningly disappointing games I have seen were under Toonie; the Cardiff Fiasco and Ireland recently. The omnishambles in Nice doesn't count as it was a warm up match. Warm up for the Ireland debacle as it happens.
So is the decision, do we want to watch a Scotland who lose narrowly, a lot, and are competitive but essentially secondraters OR do we want to watch a side who are sometimes sublime and sometimes heartbreakingly inept but slightly better at being second rate?

I think the buffties at HQ imagined that they were replicating the Lineen-Townsend progression when they got rid of Vern. You can see their logic: he has put some backbone into the squad, but we're still losing more than we win and backbone alone wont take us to the next level. So let's do what Glasgow did.

The question is, has Toonie been an outright failure? In the words of my favourite French actor, "Oui, non, petetre."

Some people see Toonie as a one trick pony: harum scarum high tempo rugby being his one trick. The embarrassing defeats to sides who do no more than defend competently and score from our mistakes would seem to point to a lack of Plan B.

The same criticism could also be levelled at his adherence to the philosophy of John Wooden. His is just one way of looking at coaching atheletes: there are others equally valid.

I think this last comment is where a lot of people "just don't get" Toonie. They point to Wooden's belief that a good coach never changes the way his team play because of who the opposition are as this would be a betrayal of their philosophy of how they want the game to be played. Certainly we have all howled in anguish when Gatland and Schmidt outwit Toonie by the cunningly fiendish manoeuvre of doing exactly what they did last time they humiliated us.

But that is to oversimplify and misunderstand what is really going on. One thing Toonie has taken from Wooden is the need for every individual to look in the mirror and reflect honestly on their practice ( not a one off performance but their day to day practice) and look for ways to improve. In simple terms this means evolution not revolution. For instance, when Toonie was first appointed could any of us have imagined "defence is more important than attack" as his mantra? Or that Chris Harris would play ahead of.... Taylor, Jones, Bennet, Scott,Steyn, Grigg to name a few.

Toonie, I am fairly certain, does not see himself as the finished article as a coach. he will reflect on this World Cup and try to find ways to improve. If he is given until the end of the 6N's then self-preservation would dictate that he prioritises short term success over long term development. Meanwhile any disaffected elements in the squad/SRU will actively be looking to undermine him.

As I said earlier in the week, either sack him NOW or back him long term. I don't know an awful lot about many things but I'm fairly certain that Toonie is very aware of where the weaknesses and failings lie. I'm also fairly certain that if the day comes when he realises he can't remedy them he will walk.










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Post by NeilyBroon on Wed 16 Oct 2019, 9:00 pm

I'm not convinced he is aware to be honest.

The Price article would indicate he just tells the players to back themselves and be creative and free. He's not done anything to disprove that theory, as head coach for Scotland, as Glasgow coach, as Scotland attack coach. It worked at Glasgow as years worth of structure was in place. When did Glasgow win? 2014/5? Not long after the reins were passed over. After that? Not much, he just had a very good squad. It worked at first with Scotland because Vern's structure was in place 6 months on and toonie had an excellent assistant in McFarland. This being said, Toonies Scotland has still won mostly against minnows qnd the tier one win rate is lower in the same time frame. Vern helped us compete with bigger fish and we worked as a cohesive team with a plan, yes sometimes the plan goes wrong but it was less frequent. Toonie has reintroduced impatience and complacency, traits we had begun to shake off after the last time toonie was in the Scotland coaching team. If he, as he likely will, survives as coach then I very much doubt we will see improvement as I'm yet to see evidence beyond the 14-15 pro12 title. Toonie has made us a basketcase again. I'd rather Scotland be a cohesive unit as that's the best rugby we've seen from them and, let's face it, we need to play better than the sum of our parts, not just let a few players fling it about in the vain hope of a miracle score.

Finally if Toonie tries to pin most of the blame on Taylor that is about as poor a reflection on his character as any. I would hope that he doesnt, as our defence worked fine under Taylor before.
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Post by jimbopip on Wed 16 Oct 2019, 10:21 pm

https://ontopofthemoon.com/2019/08/26/toonys-25/

Neilly, the above link should take you to a post on the On Top Of The Moon site. Disco is usually excellent with statistics, I reckon he could prove anything with facts. Granted it is dated 25th August so doesn't include the World Cup it is still pretty interesting.

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