Scotland post mortem
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The v2 Forum :: Sport :: Rugby Union :: International
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Scotland post mortem
First topic message reminder :
So we're oot.
Question is... what now?
Do we think toonie will stay? If he does take the can which seems quite likely then who do we get to replace him?
I think this has to be the end of a few players too. We can't keep picking people on past form.
So we're oot.
Question is... what now?
Do we think toonie will stay? If he does take the can which seems quite likely then who do we get to replace him?
I think this has to be the end of a few players too. We can't keep picking people on past form.
NeilyBroon- Moderator
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Re: Scotland post mortem
Come 6N time I'll be amazed if Barclay and Wilson are involved, although with Wilson and Townsend you never know.
I think we should persist on what we stumbled into during the WC - Bradbury, Thomson, Ritchie and Watson with the remaining spots all to play for.
Skinner to return to the 2nd row, but probably more of the same in the front row due to lack of alternatives. Hopefully Dell gets a good run of games at LI - he was on the bench at the weekend.
I think we should persist on what we stumbled into during the WC - Bradbury, Thomson, Ritchie and Watson with the remaining spots all to play for.
Skinner to return to the 2nd row, but probably more of the same in the front row due to lack of alternatives. Hopefully Dell gets a good run of games at LI - he was on the bench at the weekend.
RDW- Founder
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Re: Scotland post mortem
I'd quite like to see Richie Gray back into the fold and partnered with Skinner, with Jonny Gray, Cummings, and Gilchrist fighting the bench spot out between them. I like the back row we've stumbled across, basically rotating the Bradbury, Richie, Watson and Thomson depending on who we're playing and how they're playing. I think it might be time for Fagerson to come in ahead of Nel. Dell is really holding the sport until Kebble and Schoeman qualify. Once Kebble is in place our pack starts to look quite dynamic and able to play the sort of rugby Townsend aspires to. I actually think we are in a fairly decent place to play very fast, very skilled rugby. It looks like we'll have to do it very well to be successful in the coming years. England seem to have stumbled across some of the best rugby ever played by a team outwith New Zealand. We are never going to beat them in a slugfest but if we get the likes of George Horne, Finn Russell, Hutchinson, Jones, Graham, Hogg etc. playing clever rugby behind a dynamic pack we may be able to out-think them.
123456789.- Posts : 1091
Join date : 2015-10-10
Re: Scotland post mortem
Forgot about R Gray - if he's fit and regular playing for Toulouse we need him back.
Fagerson's scrummaging still worries me at the highest level - Nel continues to anchor our scrum well. He's only 33 which is still prime time for a prop! If he can stay healthy he should have another season or two left in him. If we're touring SA in the summer as rumoured he may be well up for that.
Fagerson's scrummaging still worries me at the highest level - Nel continues to anchor our scrum well. He's only 33 which is still prime time for a prop! If he can stay healthy he should have another season or two left in him. If we're touring SA in the summer as rumoured he may be well up for that.
RDW- Founder
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Re: Scotland post mortem
Out-thinking the opposition is a bit ambitious having suffered the brainless garbage at the world cup and 6 nations.
What I'd like to see is an organised side well drilled in the basics, who go for it when it's on and who ruck fast and effectively. Who don't leave the opposition 22 without points. Our strength is our mobility, not power. We should be hitting rucks quickly with aggression and the SH whipping the ball out straight away or forwards running in pods of 3, picking and going and not giving the defence the time to reorganise. To often we fling it out when the defence has formed a solid wall or kick it hoping for them to drop it. As is always the case when scotland are pish, it's the basics that let us down. As I've said before, we should look at Japan as our model. Very similar to how Scotland looked in VCs last year and definitely plays to our strengths more than our current non-plan.
What I'd like to see is an organised side well drilled in the basics, who go for it when it's on and who ruck fast and effectively. Who don't leave the opposition 22 without points. Our strength is our mobility, not power. We should be hitting rucks quickly with aggression and the SH whipping the ball out straight away or forwards running in pods of 3, picking and going and not giving the defence the time to reorganise. To often we fling it out when the defence has formed a solid wall or kick it hoping for them to drop it. As is always the case when scotland are pish, it's the basics that let us down. As I've said before, we should look at Japan as our model. Very similar to how Scotland looked in VCs last year and definitely plays to our strengths more than our current non-plan.
NeilyBroon- Moderator
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Re: Scotland post mortem
Having Richie Gray back would be a huge lift. I think currently my mind is on the following changes assuming no injury issues...
Hogg; Seymour, Harris, Johnson, Graham, Russell, Laidlaw; Dell, Brown, Nel, Gilchrist, Gray, Bradbury, Ritchie, Thomson.
Replacements: McInally, Reid, Fagerson, Cummings, Wilson, G Horne, P Horne, Kinghorn.
Vs Ireland
Hogg; Graham, Bennett, Jones, Maitland, Russell, Horne; Dell, McInally, Nel, R Gray, J Gray, Ritchie, Watson, Bradbury.
Replacements: Brown, McCallum, Berghan, Skinner, Thomson, Price, Hastings, Kinghorn.
Obviously massive speculation, but I'd like to see newer players slotting in and older ones sitting out in the 6N. It's 100% a transitional time now. Centre and backrow is going to be super competitive as always but if we can cull some of the older heads I think it'll breathe a bit more life into this side. It's paying off for France currently and I'd hate for us to fall into the same slump they did by persisting with older players like Para, Beauxis?? and generally making bats**t crazy selections. Form and belief in our youth is key in my opinion.
Hogg; Seymour, Harris, Johnson, Graham, Russell, Laidlaw; Dell, Brown, Nel, Gilchrist, Gray, Bradbury, Ritchie, Thomson.
Replacements: McInally, Reid, Fagerson, Cummings, Wilson, G Horne, P Horne, Kinghorn.
Vs Ireland
Hogg; Graham, Bennett, Jones, Maitland, Russell, Horne; Dell, McInally, Nel, R Gray, J Gray, Ritchie, Watson, Bradbury.
Replacements: Brown, McCallum, Berghan, Skinner, Thomson, Price, Hastings, Kinghorn.
Obviously massive speculation, but I'd like to see newer players slotting in and older ones sitting out in the 6N. It's 100% a transitional time now. Centre and backrow is going to be super competitive as always but if we can cull some of the older heads I think it'll breathe a bit more life into this side. It's paying off for France currently and I'd hate for us to fall into the same slump they did by persisting with older players like Para, Beauxis?? and generally making bats**t crazy selections. Form and belief in our youth is key in my opinion.
bsando- Posts : 4440
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Re: Scotland post mortem
I'd swap Scott for Jones. Depending on Hoggs form with exeter could think about starting kinghorn.
Also Hutchinson deserves a spot surely.
If we're clearing deadwood may as well make it wholesale! If Taylor continues his form at Edinburgh I'd like to see him in the extended squad. Dobie should be invited to train.
Wilson, Barclay, Horne Sr., Taylor shouldn't be near the 23 presently.
Also Hutchinson deserves a spot surely.
If we're clearing deadwood may as well make it wholesale! If Taylor continues his form at Edinburgh I'd like to see him in the extended squad. Dobie should be invited to train.
Wilson, Barclay, Horne Sr., Taylor shouldn't be near the 23 presently.
NeilyBroon- Moderator
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Re: Scotland post mortem
Seymour looks past it - I wouldn't have him in the team just now.
RDW- Founder
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Re: Scotland post mortem
I wouldn't have Seymour in, definitely wouldn't have Jones at 12. His strength is his ability to make the most of space and run intelligent lines. The 12 channel is just too crowded for him and he looks very much so out of place. I'd have him at 13 and Hutchinson at 12. Might be a bit underpowered but we don't have a Tuilagi or an Aki. Rather than trying the next best thing, I would go down a different route and make sure we've got a decent player doing it. If Dunbar gets his mojo back I'd have him in and around the squad. Hogg is not the player he was a couple of years ago. I'm hoping it's a form issue. If not form he looks a bit bulky at the moment. I think it was O'Driscoll that said in sort of 2007-08 he packed on a lot of muscle but found he lost his pace as a result, he made a conscious decision to lift less weight, less often and reaped the rewards in 2009. Hogg may be the same, they have relatively similar strengths in their game (certainly before O'Driscoll added more strings to his bow when he began to lose pace). More worrying would be if the hip injuries have begun to take their toll on him. I hope Maitland sticks about, I like the balance of him on one wing and Graham on the other.
Laidlaw moving on will be massive for us. I feel slightly guilty saying it as there were a couple of years when he carried us. However, the fastest game in the world is entirely undermined by the slowest scrum-half in the universe. Russell, Hogg, Graham etc. all play well in space, by the time Laidlaw got to rucks the rest of the team was in the changing room reflecting on being knocked out in the group stages. Getting George Horne in will speed things up and provide an attacking threat to keep the narrow defence honest.
Laidlaw moving on will be massive for us. I feel slightly guilty saying it as there were a couple of years when he carried us. However, the fastest game in the world is entirely undermined by the slowest scrum-half in the universe. Russell, Hogg, Graham etc. all play well in space, by the time Laidlaw got to rucks the rest of the team was in the changing room reflecting on being knocked out in the group stages. Getting George Horne in will speed things up and provide an attacking threat to keep the narrow defence honest.
123456789.- Posts : 1091
Join date : 2015-10-10
Re: Scotland post mortem
I keep forgetting about Hutchinson! We really are blessed for uninjured centres at the moment. Hutchinson/Jones could be a really good centre combination as you say numbers. Hutchinson has slick hands too where as Jones I feel is better and cutting good lines and making breaks.
Laidlaw rightfully stepped up when others did not, but he knows his days are numbered now. I can't see him usurping Price or Horne again like he did post Wales disaster in 2018. I'd love to see him as 3rd choice SH for the 2020 6N, assuming the form of Price and Horne is still solid.
Seymour needs a good season to stay involved, he's looked off the boil except in defence. Steyn and Graham for me are the two best right wing options at the moment while I see Kinghorn and Maitland filling the left side.
If Hastings can come back breaming with confidence and push on with Glasgow that would be fantastic. Russell at his best is hard to beat but he lacked consistency at the RWC after a positive season at Racing.
Laidlaw rightfully stepped up when others did not, but he knows his days are numbered now. I can't see him usurping Price or Horne again like he did post Wales disaster in 2018. I'd love to see him as 3rd choice SH for the 2020 6N, assuming the form of Price and Horne is still solid.
Seymour needs a good season to stay involved, he's looked off the boil except in defence. Steyn and Graham for me are the two best right wing options at the moment while I see Kinghorn and Maitland filling the left side.
If Hastings can come back breaming with confidence and push on with Glasgow that would be fantastic. Russell at his best is hard to beat but he lacked consistency at the RWC after a positive season at Racing.
bsando- Posts : 4440
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Re: Scotland post mortem
Aye i forgot seymour. Sad but he is headimg down retirement street I reckon. Much like greig the ponderous he's been a great servant to scotland but i think his form is in irreversible decline.
Who is in the squad in his place? Blain? VDM doesn't qualify until summer does he?
Also perhaps worth a shout for the squad is haining. He looks abrasive, which is what we really need. Crosbie, Carmichael etc too. We have to start squad planning for 2023 and have a general vision of how we want to play.
Who is in the squad in his place? Blain? VDM doesn't qualify until summer does he?
Also perhaps worth a shout for the squad is haining. He looks abrasive, which is what we really need. Crosbie, Carmichael etc too. We have to start squad planning for 2023 and have a general vision of how we want to play.
NeilyBroon- Moderator
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Re: Scotland post mortem
I'm not sure having Laidlaw as third choice makes all that much sense. It's a spot that could go to one of the younger lads coming through or Sam Hidalgo-Clyne if he's back to near his best. Having Laidlaw in and around the squad leaves a temptation. If the Ireland game goes wrong for us, there'll be talk of having him back in and whilst he might drag us to the finish line against an Italy or a France he's never going to win us having a tournament. The intensity England played at on Saturday would blow us away with him involved.
I don't think Finn Russell is ever going to change an awful lot in terms of consistency and I suppose we just have to accept he's our best player and he'll always screw up at one point. It's worth pointing out that he is still relatively young for an international fly-half. Sexton was something of an understudy aged 26 in 2011, Russell is 27 and has been our starter in two world cups. Sexton first real big rugby event was the 2013 Lions tour aged 28. Russell has the opportunity to reach that level in 2021. He's a much better rugby player than Ford but I suspect Ford is a better fly-half. Certainly one more suited to Gatland's game.
I don't think Finn Russell is ever going to change an awful lot in terms of consistency and I suppose we just have to accept he's our best player and he'll always screw up at one point. It's worth pointing out that he is still relatively young for an international fly-half. Sexton was something of an understudy aged 26 in 2011, Russell is 27 and has been our starter in two world cups. Sexton first real big rugby event was the 2013 Lions tour aged 28. Russell has the opportunity to reach that level in 2021. He's a much better rugby player than Ford but I suspect Ford is a better fly-half. Certainly one more suited to Gatland's game.
123456789.- Posts : 1091
Join date : 2015-10-10
Re: Scotland post mortem
Not sure if mentioned, but the Wales vs SA semi final does not fill me with confidence that the Lions tour will be worth going to, or even watching on TV....
Putting here so not to anger certain posters....
Putting here so not to anger certain posters....
R!skysports- Posts : 3667
Join date : 2011-03-17
Re: Scotland post mortem
123456789. wrote:I'm not sure having Laidlaw as third choice makes all that much sense. It's a spot that could go to one of the younger lads coming through or Sam Hidalgo-Clyne if he's back to near his best. Having Laidlaw in and around the squad leaves a temptation. If the Ireland game goes wrong for us, there'll be talk of having him back in and whilst he might drag us to the finish line against an Italy or a France he's never going to win us having a tournament. The intensity England played at on Saturday would blow us away with him involved.
I don't think Finn Russell is ever going to change an awful lot in terms of consistency and I suppose we just have to accept he's our best player and he'll always screw up at one point. It's worth pointing out that he is still relatively young for an international fly-half. Sexton was something of an understudy aged 26 in 2011, Russell is 27 and has been our starter in two world cups. Sexton first real big rugby event was the 2013 Lions tour aged 28. Russell has the opportunity to reach that level in 2021. He's a much better rugby player than Ford but I suspect Ford is a better fly-half. Certainly one more suited to Gatland's game.
Is he though?
The inconsistency means in my mind he is not actually that good. One game in 4 is not a good return......
He is like Scotland just now. One half of brilliance seems to paper over the cracks that the rest has been terrible...
R!skysports- Posts : 3667
Join date : 2011-03-17
Re: Scotland post mortem
R!skysports wrote:123456789. wrote:I'm not sure having Laidlaw as third choice makes all that much sense. It's a spot that could go to one of the younger lads coming through or Sam Hidalgo-Clyne if he's back to near his best. Having Laidlaw in and around the squad leaves a temptation. If the Ireland game goes wrong for us, there'll be talk of having him back in and whilst he might drag us to the finish line against an Italy or a France he's never going to win us having a tournament. The intensity England played at on Saturday would blow us away with him involved.
I don't think Finn Russell is ever going to change an awful lot in terms of consistency and I suppose we just have to accept he's our best player and he'll always screw up at one point. It's worth pointing out that he is still relatively young for an international fly-half. Sexton was something of an understudy aged 26 in 2011, Russell is 27 and has been our starter in two world cups. Sexton first real big rugby event was the 2013 Lions tour aged 28. Russell has the opportunity to reach that level in 2021. He's a much better rugby player than Ford but I suspect Ford is a better fly-half. Certainly one more suited to Gatland's game.
Is he though?
The inconsistency means in my mind he is not actually that good. One game in 4 is not a good return......
He is like Scotland just now. One half of brilliance seems to paper over the cracks that the rest has been terrible...
I don't think he's as inconsistent as is assumed. He does have moments that are completely insane and fail to work. His recent habit of kicking the ball very hard at the opposition's legs for example needs to go. But any of our big wins over the last few years simply would not have happened without him. I'm not sure you can say that for anyone else.
123456789.- Posts : 1091
Join date : 2015-10-10
Re: Scotland post mortem
123456789. wrote:R!skysports wrote:123456789. wrote:I'm not sure having Laidlaw as third choice makes all that much sense. It's a spot that could go to one of the younger lads coming through or Sam Hidalgo-Clyne if he's back to near his best. Having Laidlaw in and around the squad leaves a temptation. If the Ireland game goes wrong for us, there'll be talk of having him back in and whilst he might drag us to the finish line against an Italy or a France he's never going to win us having a tournament. The intensity England played at on Saturday would blow us away with him involved.
I don't think Finn Russell is ever going to change an awful lot in terms of consistency and I suppose we just have to accept he's our best player and he'll always screw up at one point. It's worth pointing out that he is still relatively young for an international fly-half. Sexton was something of an understudy aged 26 in 2011, Russell is 27 and has been our starter in two world cups. Sexton first real big rugby event was the 2013 Lions tour aged 28. Russell has the opportunity to reach that level in 2021. He's a much better rugby player than Ford but I suspect Ford is a better fly-half. Certainly one more suited to Gatland's game.
Is he though?
The inconsistency means in my mind he is not actually that good. One game in 4 is not a good return......
He is like Scotland just now. One half of brilliance seems to paper over the cracks that the rest has been terrible...
I don't think he's as inconsistent as is assumed. He does have moments that are completely insane and fail to work. His recent habit of kicking the ball very hard at the opposition's legs for example needs to go. But any of our big wins over the last few years simply would not have happened without him. I'm not sure you can say that for anyone else.
Eeer - what big wins lol
R!skysports- Posts : 3667
Join date : 2011-03-17
Re: Scotland post mortem
Aus away and England at home spring to mind, plus Ireland x 2, Wales, France etc.
The Aus away performance was my personal favourite - he was outstanding.
The Aus away performance was my personal favourite - he was outstanding.
RDW- Founder
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Re: Scotland post mortem
R!skysports wrote:Not sure if mentioned, but the Wales vs SA semi final does not fill me with confidence that the Lions tour will be worth going to, or even watching on TV....
Putting here so not to anger certain posters....
Gatland will use it as a re-match/revenge, throw in a token Scot, Irish and Englishman to keep the sponsors happy. AWJ to captain. You're right it might be worth saving the tour money for something else.
TightHEAD- Posts : 6192
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Re: Scotland post mortem
Laidlaw would be a good guy to have around Scotland training camps, especially for up and coming players in the backline. I'd be sad to not see him involved in teh 2020 6N at training and off the bench perhaps. I understand your concern numbers about him being catapulted by Toonie back to starting every game and therefore stalling progress, but I can't see that happening personally.
bsando- Posts : 4440
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Re: Scotland post mortem
TightHEAD wrote:R!skysports wrote:Not sure if mentioned, but the Wales vs SA semi final does not fill me with confidence that the Lions tour will be worth going to, or even watching on TV....
Putting here so not to anger certain posters....
Gatland will use it as a re-match/revenge, throw in a token Scot, Irish and Englishman to keep the sponsors happy. AWJ to captain. You're right it might be worth saving the tour money for something else.
After the world cup I'd love to just hear him say "The Scots need some sliverware or else their numbers will be low again." At least then he's setting a challenge and being crystal clear. The annoying thing as a Scotland fan is trying to read through the manure when it comes to the inevitable Lions non selection.
bsando- Posts : 4440
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Re: Scotland post mortem
I look at lions players and none of them are the same after. Seymours lack of confidence and motivation post-lions was horrible to watch. To be honest I'd rather our guys keep not getting picked because they inevitably go as filler 9/10 times.
NeilyBroon- Moderator
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Re: Scotland post mortem
If you was picking a Lions team/squad right now. How many Scottish.Irish players would actually make the squad. Basing the teams on the Rugby World Cup?
majesticimperialman- Posts : 6170
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Re: Scotland post mortem
majesticimperialman wrote:If you was picking a Lions team/squad right now. How many Scottish.Irish players would actually make the squad. Basing the teams on the Rugby World Cup?
All pointless speculation, as the Lions team does not get picked now but fair to say that with Gats as head coach, the answer to that would not be very many. However if he was genuinely picking on form, there would be a lot of English and not a lot of any of the other nations atm!
As far as Scottish players go, I am not very confident that situation will change significantly in two years time either. Partly because Scotland will likely still be struggling against the bigger boys and also because Gatland will still be the coach!
BigGee- Admin
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Re: Scotland post mortem
Scotland need to win the 6N for some much needed street cred. I only think that would sway Gatland to pick more than 2-3 Scottish players.
bsando- Posts : 4440
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Re: Scotland post mortem
The chances of us winning the 6N is remote, but we certainly need to pick up an away win or two to show we are moving on as a team.
Never been a better time to do it with Ireland and Wales in transition. But so are we!
Never been a better time to do it with Ireland and Wales in transition. But so are we!
RDW- Founder
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Re: Scotland post mortem
With 20/20 hindsight, I wonder if it would have been better for Toonie to take up Gatland's offer of being part of the Lions coaching group after all.
Poorfour- Posts : 6003
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Re: Scotland post mortem
Scotland are capable of wining the 6ns but we’re also capable of getting the wooden spoon (our luck, we’d beat Italy, but Italy would beat France)
There’s some weird chat coming from you lot just now. I blame the lack of Scottish participation in international rugby.
1. Ritchie Gray – Part of me says he’s gone and not coming back. He was out the shop window and fell from grace (needlessly) and when the coaches did go crawling back, he said he’d rather spend time with his newborn kid rather than hold tackle bags (quite rightly). This could be a sign that Ritchie is done with Scotland or it could affirm the coaches thoughts that he’s no longer in the frame.
2. Lions – No way will Gats pick many Scottish players. If he did, the whole “I pick winners” excuse the last tour will unravel and expose him as a fraud. Make no bones about it, the last lions tour was geared up to get the Welsh players playing and hopefully beating NZ so that if they met in the world cup, Wales would see that NZ are just human and not have to be frightened of their mystique. The next tour, Gats doesn’t need it as a Welsh development tour. It will come down to what Gats wants to do going forward. If he wants to win the tour and boost his future coaching credentials then he’ll pick the form players to beat SA. If he want to slip off quietly into retirement, then he may use the tour as a last hurrah form some of his faithful Welsh servants (a al Woodward and England)
3. Barclay – He’s still good yet. I think the injury he had meant he wasn’t fully match fit for the WC and the humidity in Japan exposed that. On a cold Feb afternoon, he can still do a shift for Scotland. Having said that, my preferred back row will still be a combo of Blade/Bradbury/Watson/Ritchie. If Watson starts you can have Ritchie on the bench, if Ritchie is too goo to bench you have him start at 6 and have Bradbury or Blade playing 8 or on the bench.
4. Laidlaw – I don’t think he’ll go now after the poor WC. How long is Price out for? If Laidlaw can get one more 6ns run out then I think he’ll go for it. He shouldn’t though, Wee George should be given the 9 going forward to develop.
5. Wilson – Get rid of him. Useless nothing positive penalty magnet. The days of players being picked on their banter provision are long gone.
There’s some weird chat coming from you lot just now. I blame the lack of Scottish participation in international rugby.
1. Ritchie Gray – Part of me says he’s gone and not coming back. He was out the shop window and fell from grace (needlessly) and when the coaches did go crawling back, he said he’d rather spend time with his newborn kid rather than hold tackle bags (quite rightly). This could be a sign that Ritchie is done with Scotland or it could affirm the coaches thoughts that he’s no longer in the frame.
2. Lions – No way will Gats pick many Scottish players. If he did, the whole “I pick winners” excuse the last tour will unravel and expose him as a fraud. Make no bones about it, the last lions tour was geared up to get the Welsh players playing and hopefully beating NZ so that if they met in the world cup, Wales would see that NZ are just human and not have to be frightened of their mystique. The next tour, Gats doesn’t need it as a Welsh development tour. It will come down to what Gats wants to do going forward. If he wants to win the tour and boost his future coaching credentials then he’ll pick the form players to beat SA. If he want to slip off quietly into retirement, then he may use the tour as a last hurrah form some of his faithful Welsh servants (a al Woodward and England)
3. Barclay – He’s still good yet. I think the injury he had meant he wasn’t fully match fit for the WC and the humidity in Japan exposed that. On a cold Feb afternoon, he can still do a shift for Scotland. Having said that, my preferred back row will still be a combo of Blade/Bradbury/Watson/Ritchie. If Watson starts you can have Ritchie on the bench, if Ritchie is too goo to bench you have him start at 6 and have Bradbury or Blade playing 8 or on the bench.
4. Laidlaw – I don’t think he’ll go now after the poor WC. How long is Price out for? If Laidlaw can get one more 6ns run out then I think he’ll go for it. He shouldn’t though, Wee George should be given the 9 going forward to develop.
5. Wilson – Get rid of him. Useless nothing positive penalty magnet. The days of players being picked on their banter provision are long gone.
tigertattie- Posts : 9499
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Re: Scotland post mortem
Oh get a grip! Everyone knows the bulk of Gatland's Lions squad will now be Waikato Chiefs players.
Wales next biggest contribution. 2 from England, Irish doctor and......
Sorry, plane is full.
Wales next biggest contribution. 2 from England, Irish doctor and......
Sorry, plane is full.
SecretFly- Posts : 31800
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Re: Scotland post mortem
Poorfour wrote:With 20/20 hindsight, I wonder if it would have been better for Toonie to take up Gatland's offer of being part of the Lions coaching group after all.
It was to be Howley's assistant, so no.
Instead Townsend oversaw our summer tour where we beat Australia, which was one of our best performances under his reign.
We did also lose to Fiji, which was one of his worst!
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Re: Scotland post mortem
RDW wrote:Poorfour wrote:With 20/20 hindsight, I wonder if it would have been better for Toonie to take up Gatland's offer of being part of the Lions coaching group after all.
It was to be Howley's assistant, so no.
Instead Townsend oversaw our summer tour where we beat Australia, which was one of our best performances under his reign.
We did also lose to Fiji, which was one of his worst!
I was thinking more in terms of the exposure to a range of international coaches - though the performances in Australia were some of the best I can remember from Scotland.
By the way, I think that you shouldn't necessarily judge him on his performance as a relatively new international coach at his first RWC. The RWC is a very different beast from other tournaments, and since the start of professionalism no-one has won it without prior experience of going through the tournament. Woodward crashed out in 99 before winning in 03. Eddie lost the final in 03, but helped Jake White to the title in 07. Henry lost in 07, but NZ stuck with him and he won in 11, with Hansen as an assistant - who then won in 15.
Rassie has a chance to buck the trend, but if things go according to form Eddie will be collecting the title in his own right at the third attempt.
If Toonie has learned from this experience, he will be a better coach for it - though perhaps he would benefit from an experienced sidekick.
Poorfour- Posts : 6003
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Re: Scotland post mortem
I get what you're saying Poorfour but it's not just the WC that we've had issue with - his last 18 months has been really poor. We've been on a downward slide after the 2018 6N really.
The WC backlash is a culmination of many disappointing performances.
The WC backlash is a culmination of many disappointing performances.
RDW- Founder
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Re: Scotland post mortem
Poorfour, I think the big disappointment is that from 2004 to 2014 we had a group of generally dedicated but pretty average players. They had one or two big performances in them a season; we beat Australia in 2009 with a pretty Herculean defensive performance and a bigger splash of luck, similarly England in 2006 and 2008, South Africa in 2010. The norm however was being between eight and twenty points off of off the rest of the traditional five nations and the Tri-Nations. Vern Cotter managed to turn that around with the help of a group of greatly improved players. To begin with Toonie seemed to build on it we should have beaten New Zealand, we beat Australia home and away, beat England and France with some to spare. Across 2017 and 2018 we beat every Six Nations team as well as Australia and Argentina.
Since then we seem to have abandoned all that was good in those performances in favour of a sort of ill-defined kicking game that doesn't suit our strengths whilst the flakiness that defined losses to Fiji, the USA, Wales in 2018 has become the norm. Townsend has taken little to no responsibility for that, his response has been an exhibition in intransigence. Every tournament every journalist in every country pumps out the usual: "if Scotland can carry their home form away they're in with a shot", "if Scotland could just add a bit of steel to the flair they could well be the dark horses", "if Scotland can build a platform to play off..." etc. etc. etc. In the last eighteen months the home fortress has, if not been destroyed, certainly been breached, the flair has largely been replaced with an inaccurate kicking game. Chris Harris being the epitome of this, when one of our genuine attacking threats went off the boil, Townsend could have stuck with Jones or replaced him with Hutchinson instead he went for the arch-plodder. The arch-plodder did play to his full capability in fairness but in terms of style it was up there with replacing Scholes with Fellaini. If Townsend's takeaway from this World Cup has been to play with ball in hand and to instil patience in our play then it's been a worthwhile exercise.
I've long been of the opinion that World Cup's are not the best place to assess where we are currently. In a slight bastardisation of the traditional rugby "earn the right to go wide" you need to earn the right to win the World Cup. If as a Northern Hemisphere team you've been consistently competing to win the Six Nations then you can rightfully go into a World Cup expecting to win and be bitterly disappointed when you don't. For us the Six Nations is far more important, it is a far better parameter of where we are. If we win the Six Nations in the next four years then the World Cup debacle was worth it. It is simply a case of whether Townsend is prepared to make the changes to give the lads a shot at that. On the evidence of the last two years it seems quite unlikely.
Since then we seem to have abandoned all that was good in those performances in favour of a sort of ill-defined kicking game that doesn't suit our strengths whilst the flakiness that defined losses to Fiji, the USA, Wales in 2018 has become the norm. Townsend has taken little to no responsibility for that, his response has been an exhibition in intransigence. Every tournament every journalist in every country pumps out the usual: "if Scotland can carry their home form away they're in with a shot", "if Scotland could just add a bit of steel to the flair they could well be the dark horses", "if Scotland can build a platform to play off..." etc. etc. etc. In the last eighteen months the home fortress has, if not been destroyed, certainly been breached, the flair has largely been replaced with an inaccurate kicking game. Chris Harris being the epitome of this, when one of our genuine attacking threats went off the boil, Townsend could have stuck with Jones or replaced him with Hutchinson instead he went for the arch-plodder. The arch-plodder did play to his full capability in fairness but in terms of style it was up there with replacing Scholes with Fellaini. If Townsend's takeaway from this World Cup has been to play with ball in hand and to instil patience in our play then it's been a worthwhile exercise.
I've long been of the opinion that World Cup's are not the best place to assess where we are currently. In a slight bastardisation of the traditional rugby "earn the right to go wide" you need to earn the right to win the World Cup. If as a Northern Hemisphere team you've been consistently competing to win the Six Nations then you can rightfully go into a World Cup expecting to win and be bitterly disappointed when you don't. For us the Six Nations is far more important, it is a far better parameter of where we are. If we win the Six Nations in the next four years then the World Cup debacle was worth it. It is simply a case of whether Townsend is prepared to make the changes to give the lads a shot at that. On the evidence of the last two years it seems quite unlikely.
123456789.- Posts : 1091
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Re: Scotland post mortem
Poorfour wrote:
By the way, I think that you shouldn't necessarily judge him on his performance as a relatively new international coach at his first RWC. The RWC is a very different beast from other tournaments, and since the start of professionalism no-one has won it without prior experience of going through the tournament. Woodward crashed out in 99 before winning in 03. Eddie lost the final in 03, but helped Jake White to the title in 07. Henry lost in 07, but NZ stuck with him and he won in 11, with Hansen as an assistant - who then won in 15.
Good omen for us then with two time unfortunate Farrell.
SecretFly- Posts : 31800
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Re: Scotland post mortem
SecretFly wrote:Poorfour wrote:
By the way, I think that you shouldn't necessarily judge him on his performance as a relatively new international coach at his first RWC. The RWC is a very different beast from other tournaments, and since the start of professionalism no-one has won it without prior experience of going through the tournament. Woodward crashed out in 99 before winning in 03. Eddie lost the final in 03, but helped Jake White to the title in 07. Henry lost in 07, but NZ stuck with him and he won in 11, with Hansen as an assistant - who then won in 15.
Good omen for us then with two time unfortunate Farrell. :whistle:
I can't judge how much is down to Farrell, but Ireland peaked a year too early, and once they'd been outplayed once there didn't seem to be a back up gameplan. The flaws were there from February and both the Twickenham warm up and the QF exposed them ruthlessly. Was that down to a broken defensive system, to senior players with nothing left in the tank? Hard to say. But Farrell's defensive system worked well for England until Lancaster started taking Sam Burgess off and putting an unfit Manu Tuilagi on.
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Re: Scotland post mortem
https://twitter.com/Scotlandteam/status/1190269196300640256
RDW- Founder
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Re: Scotland post mortem
I will be supporting England for this one.
Firstly they are a Northern Hemisphere side and we want to redress the balance somewhat
Secondly, they have been the best team in the tournament and deserve to win, a team, it has to be said as well, that we have not lost to for the past 2 years
Firstly they are a Northern Hemisphere side and we want to redress the balance somewhat
Secondly, they have been the best team in the tournament and deserve to win, a team, it has to be said as well, that we have not lost to for the past 2 years
BigGee- Admin
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Re: Scotland post mortem
No issues with Scottish people supporting England, just don't know why the SRU felt the need to tweet that! No one would have said anything if they hadn't and this is really riled people up!
RDW- Founder
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Re: Scotland post mortem
RDW wrote:https://twitter.com/Scotlandteam/status/1190269196300640256
Sh!t the bed thats caused the page to light up.
Its a mixture of genuine banterous comments of "nah, we're bokke fans" to down right racist hatred toward England.
tigertattie- Posts : 9499
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Re: Scotland post mortem
the replies are worth a read certainly!
RDW- Founder
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Re: Scotland post mortem
tigertattie wrote:RDW wrote:https://twitter.com/Scotlandteam/status/1190269196300640256
Sh!t the bed thats caused the page to light up.
Its a mixture of genuine banterous comments of "nah, we're bokke fans" to down right racist hatred toward England.
God knows what the Evans brothers would make of it
Gooseberry- Posts : 8384
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Re: Scotland post mortem
Gooseberry wrote:tigertattie wrote:RDW wrote:https://twitter.com/Scotlandteam/status/1190269196300640256
Sh!t the bed thats caused the page to light up.
Its a mixture of genuine banterous comments of "nah, we're bokke fans" to down right racist hatred toward England.
God knows what the Evans brothers would make of it
Thom wont care, he's too busy warming up his vocal chords for tomorrow night on the x factor
tigertattie- Posts : 9499
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Re: Scotland post mortem
RDW wrote:https://twitter.com/Scotlandteam/status/1190269196300640256
Good to see Glove back on twitter.
lostinwales- lostinwales
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Re: Scotland post mortem
Have to say I'll be supporting South Africa tomorrow, not through any anachronistic anti-English sentiment but simply because Siya Kolisi lifting the World Cup in a Springbok jersey would be an incredibly poignant image of how sport, specifically our sport, can impact the wider world in a constructive way. I won't be disappointed if England win though, they have a number of very good players who seem to be very good people.
123456789.- Posts : 1091
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Re: Scotland post mortem
Even my dad, an "anyone but England" ex pat... living in England... is reluctantly supporting them.
The NH needs a win. I'll be supporting them. They also deserve to win on the current evidence. I don't mind England doing well, they have this image of arrogance because of the media twonks but most of their fans are just as self deprecating as Scotland fans!
It's England's to lose tomorrow, but how will they cope as favourites in a final? I guess we'll see.
The NH needs a win. I'll be supporting them. They also deserve to win on the current evidence. I don't mind England doing well, they have this image of arrogance because of the media twonks but most of their fans are just as self deprecating as Scotland fans!
It's England's to lose tomorrow, but how will they cope as favourites in a final? I guess we'll see.
NeilyBroon- Moderator
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Re: Scotland post mortem
Am I right in thinking South Africa's next game is against.....us?
RDW- Founder
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Re: Scotland post mortem
RDW wrote:Am I right in thinking South Africa's next game is against.....us?
Ah good. The Raeburn shield can come home
Seriously though, this World Cup has shown us exactly what has been going on over the last 12 months that anyone has a chance of beating anyone else.
Namibia bearing Fiji
England beating NZ
SA beating England
NZ beating SA
Wales beating Oz
Japan beating Ireland
The look at the run up to the WC.
Scotland not losing to England
England beating Ireland
Ireland beating wales
SA beating NZ
Ireland peaked a year early
England peaked a week early
Scotland didn’t peak
If you play that World Cup again in a months time many of the games will have different results and you’d need to be a very good betting man to be able to pick who would be in the final.
tigertattie- Posts : 9499
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Re: Scotland post mortem
We've already peaked in 2017 and we lost to Fiji that year
What you mean to say is Ryan Wilson hasn't peaked.
We'll be world champs with him as captain in 2023 and the two hardest working centres in rugby and toonie back to making selection calls throwing darts at a spinning dartboard.
What you mean to say is Ryan Wilson hasn't peaked.
We'll be world champs with him as captain in 2023 and the two hardest working centres in rugby and toonie back to making selection calls throwing darts at a spinning dartboard.
NeilyBroon- Moderator
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Re: Scotland post mortem
I think the traditional Tier Team is null and void now, I'd say there's more Tiers now with less between them with each team able to, potentially, win or lose to the teams two levels above and below them depending on various factors:
Tier 1
England, New Zealand, South Africa
Tier 1.5
Ireland, Wales
Tier 2
Scotland, France, Argentina, Australia
Tier 2.5
Japan, Italy, Fiji
Tier 3
Georgia, Samoa, Tonga, USA
Tier 4
Uruguay, Namibia, Russia, Canada
There's also the fact that this final has set up a mouthwatering Lions tour for our players to not be involved in.
Tier 1
England, New Zealand, South Africa
Tier 1.5
Ireland, Wales
Tier 2
Scotland, France, Argentina, Australia
Tier 2.5
Japan, Italy, Fiji
Tier 3
Georgia, Samoa, Tonga, USA
Tier 4
Uruguay, Namibia, Russia, Canada
There's also the fact that this final has set up a mouthwatering Lions tour for our players to not be involved in.
123456789.- Posts : 1091
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Re: Scotland post mortem
As someone who is a fierce patriot but moved away from home when I was 17 and left Scotland for work, salad and exotic ladies when I was 21, I do stare in disbelief in the 'anyone but England' brigade. Makes us look collectively like a bunch of morons. And it's not just 'all a bit of a joke', there's something more sinister there and it's existed since I was a kid.
The world is an enormous place, full of people and cultures who have deep and systematic problems. Some people cannot show their faces, others cannot vote, some women walk in constant fear of being assaulted and others stand a reasonable chance of stepping on a home-made nail bomb on their way to buy baby food. This is aside from the tier of people below who have no food, water or hope.
How staggeringly insular and forking thick as yak sheize does one have to be to snipe at a neighbour nation out of what seems to the outside world to be nothing more than an inferiority complex. The reason I turned round completely on the Scottish independence question is because despite the fact it makes little short term financial sense, what you are buying for that money is a chance to be truly self determining. And there's one thing that lowers us as a nation, it's blaming other people, other countries and other governments for our own position in the world. We're amazingly good at whining and I'm getting tired of it.
Grow up, grow a pair a support your fellow home nations folks. You'd want them to do the same for you. We're better than that.
The world is an enormous place, full of people and cultures who have deep and systematic problems. Some people cannot show their faces, others cannot vote, some women walk in constant fear of being assaulted and others stand a reasonable chance of stepping on a home-made nail bomb on their way to buy baby food. This is aside from the tier of people below who have no food, water or hope.
How staggeringly insular and forking thick as yak sheize does one have to be to snipe at a neighbour nation out of what seems to the outside world to be nothing more than an inferiority complex. The reason I turned round completely on the Scottish independence question is because despite the fact it makes little short term financial sense, what you are buying for that money is a chance to be truly self determining. And there's one thing that lowers us as a nation, it's blaming other people, other countries and other governments for our own position in the world. We're amazingly good at whining and I'm getting tired of it.
Grow up, grow a pair a support your fellow home nations folks. You'd want them to do the same for you. We're better than that.
George Carlin- Admin
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Re: Scotland post mortem
Aye well said, i don't think anyone on this forum is of that ilk and most of us will support the home nations outside of our games (plus we need someone to support given we'll be out within the first few weeks usually!).
I was disappointed for England and was watching it with a friend who was absolutely mortified (understandably so). The little comfort i could give was "at least you're not a Scotland fan" to which he replied "Well we've not beaten you for the last two years so it's not much better!"
In fairness i fully expect a pasting from England this year. They'll come to murrayfield with a point to prove and if nothing's changed in Toonies set up I am 100% dreading it!
I was disappointed for England and was watching it with a friend who was absolutely mortified (understandably so). The little comfort i could give was "at least you're not a Scotland fan" to which he replied "Well we've not beaten you for the last two years so it's not much better!"
In fairness i fully expect a pasting from England this year. They'll come to murrayfield with a point to prove and if nothing's changed in Toonies set up I am 100% dreading it!
NeilyBroon- Moderator
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Re: Scotland post mortem
Hard to know how that match will effect England. They put so much into the tournsment that a dip in form after it would be perfectly understsndsble as well.
This could be a strange 6N with cosch and player turnover and the lingering fstigue post WC.
The one constant being that we will likely still be up agsinst it!
This could be a strange 6N with cosch and player turnover and the lingering fstigue post WC.
The one constant being that we will likely still be up agsinst it!
BigGee- Admin
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