Scotland post mortem

Page 9 of 9 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9

Go down

Scotland post mortem - Page 9 Empty Scotland post mortem

Post by NeilyBroon on Sun 13 Oct 2019, 1:49 pm

First topic message reminder :

So we're oot.

Question is... what now?

Do we think toonie will stay? If he does take the can which seems quite likely then who do we get to replace him?

I think this has to be the end of a few players too. We can't keep picking people on past form.
NeilyBroon
NeilyBroon

Posts : 1745
Join date : 2012-01-12
Age : 28
Location : Southampton

Back to top Go down


Scotland post mortem - Page 9 Empty Re: Scotland post mortem

Post by Tramptastic on Fri 08 Nov 2019, 8:27 am

Yeh the whole case is pretty farcical

As pointed out Dodson and the SRU will target the so called contingency plans.

If there are documented concerns made about typhoons during Japans bid process that were alleviated by detailed assurances as to how WR/Japan would manage the disruption caused by typhoons, then the SRU have a solid base to work from. Evidently there was no serious contingency plan beyond "we'll just cancel the games", surely this wasn't the proposal made during the bid process???

All Dodson and the SRU need to do is apologise for "strong opinions" and their "ill judged language" used, donate the money to the cause, but turn round and say "we still need to talk about this in a professional manner because this wasn't good enough". That'll make WR p00p themselves if they have to publicly discuss concerns raised pre-tournament award and how this compared to the resultant mess that occured.

I agree with Tom English in that Italy should feel the most aggrieved and Parisse was right - if NZ were going to be knocked out in the pool stages as a result of weather you can be sure they would have found a way to play the game.

Tramptastic

Posts : 682
Join date : 2012-10-19
Age : 29
Location : Edinburgh via Rockcliffe/Dalbeattie/Dumfries/The Wickerman Festival

Back to top Go down

Scotland post mortem - Page 9 Empty Re: Scotland post mortem

Post by RDW on Fri 08 Nov 2019, 8:38 am

That's the key point of Tom English's piece - WR are going hard on the SRU to cover up their own failings.

I think we should release a statement reaffirming our condolences to the Japan people (referencing the one that we already released saying that) and apologising for any insnsitive language, pay the fine directly to the charity (not through WR), say that this punishment does not change the fact that WR made a right mess of things and leave a big Geordie Reid after a lamb madras turd on WR's doorstep.

He's also right that we're going to be fighting this battle on our own - every other nation are happy to put the boot in as they weren't affected and can happily sit on their high horses, even though they know WR made a mess of things too.

RDW
Founder
Founder

Posts : 27942
Join date : 2011-06-01
Age : 32
Location : London

Back to top Go down

Scotland post mortem - Page 9 Empty Re: Scotland post mortem

Post by Tramptastic on Fri 08 Nov 2019, 9:15 am

We might get sympathy from Italy but aye thats aboot it. Italy actually had their best world cup in years, only losing one game and even then looking competitive against the boks until the red card so you'd think they'd feel heavily aggrieved there was no contingency for the final game against NZ being played elsewhere.

Hopefully all parties actually learn something rather than carrying on being ars£h0les

Tramptastic

Posts : 682
Join date : 2012-10-19
Age : 29
Location : Edinburgh via Rockcliffe/Dalbeattie/Dumfries/The Wickerman Festival

Back to top Go down

Scotland post mortem - Page 9 Empty Re: Scotland post mortem

Post by Gooseberry on Fri 08 Nov 2019, 9:30 am

RDW wrote:That's the key point of Tom English's piece - WR are going hard on the SRU to cover up their own failings.

I think we should release a statement reaffirming our condolences to the Japan people (referencing the one that we already released saying that) and apologising for any insnsitive language, pay the fine directly to the charity (not through WR), say that this punishment does not change the fact that WR made a right mess of things and leave a big Geordie Reid after a lamb madras turd on WR's doorstep.

He's also right that we're going to be fighting this battle on our own - every other nation are happy to put the boot in as they weren't affected and can happily sit on their high horses, even though they know WR made a mess of things too.


Pretty sure there were 4 teams who were affected and Scotland weren't? Even Italy who saw their two greatest ever players miss out on their retirement games didn't through their toys out the pram as much as Scotland did and make deliberate misrepresentations to the media.

Gooseberry

Posts : 5781
Join date : 2015-02-11

Back to top Go down

Scotland post mortem - Page 9 Empty Re: Scotland post mortem

Post by tigertattie on Fri 08 Nov 2019, 9:32 am

Cant we all judt say:

"Look, we threatened to take elegal advice, we didnt so lets call it a day"

and

"look, we threatened to cancel the match, we didnt so lets call it a day"

My old primary 4 teacher used to say, two wrongs don't make a right. World Rugby, a omnishambles of an orgnaisation, had pish poor contingency plans. Meanwhile the SRU, a microcosim of the omnishmables of WR, had pish poor public relations advice.

WR should use the whole carry on as a case study on how to prevent such nonsense in the future and the SRU should reflect and realise that spouting off in public was completely wrong if only from a public image point of view.
tigertattie
tigertattie

Posts : 6941
Join date : 2011-07-11
Location : On the naughty step

Back to top Go down

Scotland post mortem - Page 9 Empty Re: Scotland post mortem

Post by RDW on Fri 08 Nov 2019, 9:34 am

Gooseberry wrote:
RDW wrote:That's the key point of Tom English's piece - WR are going hard on the SRU to cover up their own failings.

I think we should release a statement reaffirming our condolences to the Japan people (referencing the one that we already released saying that) and apologising for any insnsitive language, pay the fine directly to the charity (not through WR), say that this punishment does not change the fact that WR made a right mess of things and leave a big Geordie Reid after a lamb madras turd on WR's doorstep.

He's also right that we're going to be fighting this battle on our own - every other nation are happy to put the boot in as they weren't affected and can happily sit on their high horses, even though they know WR made a mess of things too.


Pretty sure there were 4 teams who were affected and Scotland weren't? Even Italy who saw their two greatest ever players miss out on their retirement games didn't through their toys out the pram as much as Scotland did and make deliberate misrepresentations to the media.

You do know what Parisee said yeah? Strange comment. Also what do you mean Scotland weren't effected?

Scotland and Italy were the only teams who had a chance of qualifying, albeit Italy's were very very remote as they would have needed to beat NZ by a cricket score. NZ, England and France were quite happy about not having to play an extra game. Canada were gutted they didn't get a last game but they didn't stand to lose any money/prestige from not qualifying like Scotland (or Italy technically) were.

What misrepresentations are you talking about?


Last edited by RDW on Fri 08 Nov 2019, 9:35 am; edited 1 time in total

RDW
Founder
Founder

Posts : 27942
Join date : 2011-06-01
Age : 32
Location : London

Back to top Go down

Scotland post mortem - Page 9 Empty Re: Scotland post mortem

Post by Tattie Scones RRN on Fri 08 Nov 2019, 9:35 am

RDW wrote:A few key points here that pretty much every journalist seems to be ignoring:

- Legal action was never threatened, just that they would seek legal advice. A key difference!
- Dodson's comments came during a 2 hour press conference where he expressed sympathy for the Japanese people several times and acknowledged how difficult a situation it was. WR and the press are making us out to be insensitive monsters who all we cared about was suing everyone.
- It is World Rugby's opinion that it brought the game into disrepute and was insensitive to all the people affected. I'm no lawyer but would that stand up in court - i.e. do they have any proof that it brought the game into disrepute? As mentioned above during the press conference we said what needed to be said about the effect it was having. We also released a statement saying similar sentiments.
- The Japan coach had a bit of a rant about it but he didn't say that Scotland have insulted the nation and were being disrespectful. Reading his quotes it was more anger of the insinuation that Japan would like the game to be cancelled (never said by the SRU) or that they didn't deserve their place in the QF (also never said by the SRU), and painting it as a David vs Goliath game given all his players are amateurs etc.
- There's obviously no bad blood between Scotland and Japan given we've agreed a test match next November.
- The 'independent' bloke that has passed this judgement is the same guy that tried to ban Ford and Gray during the last world cup - a decision that was later overruled. I guess he doesn't like the Scots!  Very Happy
- They say in their judgement that SRU's insinuation that teams are treated differently was one of the reasons they are guilty. What about Parisee's comments who clearly stated he thinks teams are treated differently?


There's absolutely no doubt that the whole situation could have been handled better, and I suspect Dodson's dealings with WR behind closed door is what they are most affronted about. I just do not believe this is a valid disciplinary case and I also don't understand why WR are doing it - it massively distracts from what was a very successful tournament. I can't imagine SRU will accept this - which WR must know - and it's going to get even more messy when the arbitration happens. This should have been dealt with behind closed doors.

For what it's worth I hope the SRU do end up donate to the charity even if we have our offences cleared.

Excellent post RDW. If only people could read properly and not interpret how they want to.

The amount of people saying the SRU threatened legal action. Absolute bollix.

Tattie Scones RRN

Posts : 1745
Join date : 2011-05-24
Age : 43
Location : Scottish Rugby Purgatory

Back to top Go down

Scotland post mortem - Page 9 Empty Re: Scotland post mortem

Post by Tattie Scones RRN on Fri 08 Nov 2019, 9:36 am

Gooseberry wrote:
RDW wrote:That's the key point of Tom English's piece - WR are going hard on the SRU to cover up their own failings.

I think we should release a statement reaffirming our condolences to the Japan people (referencing the one that we already released saying that) and apologising for any insnsitive language, pay the fine directly to the charity (not through WR), say that this punishment does not change the fact that WR made a right mess of things and leave a big Geordie Reid after a lamb madras turd on WR's doorstep.

He's also right that we're going to be fighting this battle on our own - every other nation are happy to put the boot in as they weren't affected and can happily sit on their high horses, even though they know WR made a mess of things too.


Pretty sure there were 4 teams who were affected and Scotland weren't? Even Italy who saw their two greatest ever players miss out on their retirement games didn't through their toys out the pram as much as Scotland did and make deliberate misrepresentations to the media.

You've got proof of this garbage statement have you?

Tattie Scones RRN

Posts : 1745
Join date : 2011-05-24
Age : 43
Location : Scottish Rugby Purgatory

Back to top Go down

Scotland post mortem - Page 9 Empty Re: Scotland post mortem

Post by RDW on Fri 08 Nov 2019, 9:37 am

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:
RDW wrote:A few key points here that pretty much every journalist seems to be ignoring:

- Legal action was never threatened, just that they would seek legal advice. A key difference!
- Dodson's comments came during a 2 hour press conference where he expressed sympathy for the Japanese people several times and acknowledged how difficult a situation it was. WR and the press are making us out to be insensitive monsters who all we cared about was suing everyone.
- It is World Rugby's opinion that it brought the game into disrepute and was insensitive to all the people affected. I'm no lawyer but would that stand up in court - i.e. do they have any proof that it brought the game into disrepute? As mentioned above during the press conference we said what needed to be said about the effect it was having. We also released a statement saying similar sentiments.
- The Japan coach had a bit of a rant about it but he didn't say that Scotland have insulted the nation and were being disrespectful. Reading his quotes it was more anger of the insinuation that Japan would like the game to be cancelled (never said by the SRU) or that they didn't deserve their place in the QF (also never said by the SRU), and painting it as a David vs Goliath game given all his players are amateurs etc.
- There's obviously no bad blood between Scotland and Japan given we've agreed a test match next November.
- The 'independent' bloke that has passed this judgement is the same guy that tried to ban Ford and Gray during the last world cup - a decision that was later overruled. I guess he doesn't like the Scots!  Very Happy
- They say in their judgement that SRU's insinuation that teams are treated differently was one of the reasons they are guilty. What about Parisee's comments who clearly stated he thinks teams are treated differently?


There's absolutely no doubt that the whole situation could have been handled better, and I suspect Dodson's dealings with WR behind closed door is what they are most affronted about. I just do not believe this is a valid disciplinary case and I also don't understand why WR are doing it - it massively distracts from what was a very successful tournament. I can't imagine SRU will accept this - which WR must know - and it's going to get even more messy when the arbitration happens. This should have been dealt with behind closed doors.

For what it's worth I hope the SRU do end up donate to the charity even if we have our offences cleared.

Excellent post RDW. If only people could read properly and not interpret how they want to.

The amount of people saying the SRU threatened legal action. Absolute bollix.

This is a world of Trump, Brexit and fake news - sadly that's too much to ask for these days.

RDW
Founder
Founder

Posts : 27942
Join date : 2011-06-01
Age : 32
Location : London

Back to top Go down

Scotland post mortem - Page 9 Empty Re: Scotland post mortem

Post by Tattie Scones RRN on Fri 08 Nov 2019, 9:38 am

Indeed. Twitter is not good for my blood pressure at the moment.

Tattie Scones RRN

Posts : 1745
Join date : 2011-05-24
Age : 43
Location : Scottish Rugby Purgatory

Back to top Go down

Scotland post mortem - Page 9 Empty Re: Scotland post mortem

Post by LondonTiger on Fri 08 Nov 2019, 9:52 am

When you have a head coach like Eddie Jones who is a complete gobshite you have to sometimes accept that he may be misrepresented or misunderstood.

Dodson for me is in the same boat. While not a gobshite he has over the years come across as a self-serving twerp far too keen on a soundbite and only interested in acting the big man.

Personally I feel the fine on Scotland is ridiculous, noting I have not read the rationale. However I would fine them merely for having Dodson as CEO.

LondonTiger
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 21971
Join date : 2011-02-10

Back to top Go down

Scotland post mortem - Page 9 Empty Re: Scotland post mortem

Post by RDW on Fri 08 Nov 2019, 9:56 am

LondonTiger wrote:When you have a head coach like Eddie Jones who is a complete gobshite you have to sometimes accept that he may be misrepresented or misunderstood.

Dodson for me is in the same boat. While not a gobshite he has over the years come across as a self-serving twerp far too keen on a soundbite and only interested in acting the big man.

Personally I feel the fine on Scotland is ridiculous, noting I have not read the rationale. However I would fine them merely for having Dodson as CEO.

This most Scottish fans would agree with! You guys probably aren't even aware of all the internal SRU controversy's that he's been part of.

It also leads to a great deal of confiction with the fans as he's also overseen a significant improvement in how we are run as a business - we're in the best financial position we've ever been and are starting to invest a lot in academies etc.

RDW
Founder
Founder

Posts : 27942
Join date : 2011-06-01
Age : 32
Location : London

Back to top Go down

Scotland post mortem - Page 9 Empty Re: Scotland post mortem

Post by SecretFly on Fri 08 Nov 2019, 10:00 am

I think there's a pretty good logic trail to say others were affected by the shenanigans caused by the Typhoon.
For example, what if Italy had given New Zealand a right good game, made them play, made them tackle, made them sweat, made them work.... would New Zealand then have been as Harlem Globetrotterish with Ireland the following week?

In the end, Scotland got to play their game, got their fair whack at it... but the other two of England and New Zealand were allowed stay fresh, didn't risk game injuries and were given the opportunity to plan for three more games rather than four.

I hope the Italian, Australian and Irish Unions put in their official missives to WR and demand that more equatable contingency plans are put in operation in future rather than the farcical situation whereby some teams Had to play their fourth games, others Hadn't to play.
... some Could play their fourth game and others Couldn't.

Whistle ...... but private letters of course, not public interviews...... don't want getting trigger fingered litigious WR riled again.

BTW, on a similar slant - will WR now throw the book at Chris Robshaw for bringing the game into disrepute by publically saying that Saracens have brought the game into disrepute - and that now the game of Rugby Union is basically as corrupt as other sports?
Hefty fine coming, Chris?

SecretFly

Posts : 31124
Join date : 2011-12-12

Back to top Go down

Scotland post mortem - Page 9 Empty Re: Scotland post mortem

Post by BigGee on Fri 08 Nov 2019, 10:05 am

Dodson is the classic curates egg of a CEO.

Perhaps in a world of big egos as exists in international sport, you need a bombastic figure to be your leader.

As RDW says, he has transformed the SRU from the basket case it was under previous regimes into a well functioning business, but there have been casualties along the way, Finn Russell's dad amongst them.

He has his admirers out there though, last time England were looking for a CEO there was talk of him moving down south!

Bottom line is bottom line in big business and sport is not immune to that and anyone who can produce it will be in demand.

I am wondering though if maybe he has done his time in Scotland now and maybe we need to move on from the Dodson era. Maybe sometime in the not to distant future, it might be time for a change at the top of Scottish rugby.

That won't get us out of the current mess though. I am not sure what will.

BigGee
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 8328
Join date : 2013-11-05
Location : London

Back to top Go down

Scotland post mortem - Page 9 Empty Re: Scotland post mortem

Post by RDW on Fri 08 Nov 2019, 10:13 am

The other issue here is how this will affect our long term relationship with WR. This could affect everything from commercial arrangements to player disciplinary proceedings - we're not going to get a favourable response on anything.

Long term lasting damage has resulted from this, there is no doubt.

I'd say our chances of hosting or partially hosting a World Cup are dead and buried for at least the next 50 years! It least we don't get Typhoons in Scotland.... Run

RDW
Founder
Founder

Posts : 27942
Join date : 2011-06-01
Age : 32
Location : London

Back to top Go down

Scotland post mortem - Page 9 Empty Re: Scotland post mortem

Post by BigGee on Fri 08 Nov 2019, 10:24 am

https://www.theoffsideline.com/scottish-rugby-world-cup-sanction/

David Barnes does a good analysis of it all in TOL as well.

BigGee
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 8328
Join date : 2013-11-05
Location : London

Back to top Go down

Scotland post mortem - Page 9 Empty Re: Scotland post mortem

Post by NeilyBroon on Sat 09 Nov 2019, 9:07 am

I can't help feeling the SRU are just going to make a bad situation worse if they keep fighting it. It's happened now and the initial situation probably could have been diffused earlier with just a couple of bruised egos the damage. Yes it's petty from world rugby, but unfortunately world rugby have a big say in what we as a nation can do. Look at their neglect of the pacific islands for instance, i don't think we'll get ourselves any big games or friends in the other unions by being belligerent and unless we want to put ourselves permanently in the tier 2 bracket we should swallow our pride a bit.

I respect what dodson has done for scottish rugby, and we do need a combative chairman but not at the expense of our long term future relationships with the bigger unions. Maybe it is time for him to step aside and a fresh pair of eyes to assess our political situation.
NeilyBroon
NeilyBroon

Posts : 1745
Join date : 2012-01-12
Age : 28
Location : Southampton

Back to top Go down

Scotland post mortem - Page 9 Empty Re: Scotland post mortem

Post by 123456789. on Sat 09 Nov 2019, 2:14 pm

I do think we need to pick our battles. This is not one we can win nor one that we would gain anything tangible from winning. There are several battles on the horizon. The bigger unions want to globalise rugby but not at their own expense. New Zealand for example want to expand to a global season but not at their own risk. They will not travel to Fiji or Tonga or Samoa. England are the same. If they determine the way to go is to promotion and relegation then we will be the ones in the firing line. At the moment Dodson is pursuing a short term, utilitarian approach. Expending massive amount of good will in the process. It would be much better to strike the tone of the conciliator and come very much so back within the fold. If we insist on striking our own path outwith World Rugby they may determine that they are much better off without us. Likewise, with the World Cup decision, Dodson struck the attitude that we should simply go with the country that pays us best. In doing so managed to strike a wedge between us and our traditional Celtic allies in the process. The battle lines are being drawn for the wranglings over the future of rugby, the SRU would be well advised to stop irritating the referee and alienating itself from its traditional allies.

Dodson has done very well for us, however I think his businessman approach is beginning to grate with the SRU's real role as the guardian of a sport in a nation. We saw that with his analysis of the Townsend-Cotter situation. He saw the SRU as a business and was evidently worried about the impact of losing a talented part of that business. Rugby people generally took the opinion that it wouldn't do any harm for Townsend his education elsewhere and Cotter to stick around. On the other hand he did a stellar job securing the money for the Murrayfield naming rights. One need only to consider Bill Beaumont's pint diplomacy in the nineties. The RFU got itself swept up in the business side of things and it needed a rugby man to fix the dispute. Perhaps it's time for Dodson to focus on the domestic, business side and send a real rugby man (or woman) to do the diplomatic stuff. Rightly or wrongly he'll be considered to be acting only in the interest of Scotland's coffers as opposed to the good of the game. Sending someone else will ultimately serve us better. Even if he's just Dodson's delegate.

Sending Allan Jacobsen might be an idea, I imagine he could sufficiently drink the rest under the table that he may come away with the Web Ellis trophy and part ownership of Twickenham.

123456789.

Posts : 394
Join date : 2015-10-10

Back to top Go down

Scotland post mortem - Page 9 Empty Re: Scotland post mortem

Post by reallybored on Tue 12 Nov 2019, 9:19 pm

I'd like to see a long-term appointment at captain; McInally will be 33 come 2023 and possibly/probably won't be first choice.

For me, the best candidate is Jamie Ritchie.  He looks like a special player IMO with the right attitude and due to his versatility, it's easier to keep him in the team. Plus as a captain at flanker, he can get away with way more sh!t before getting a YC.

reallybored

Posts : 922
Join date : 2012-07-13

Back to top Go down

Scotland post mortem - Page 9 Empty Re: Scotland post mortem

Post by BigGee on Tue 12 Nov 2019, 9:31 pm

I certainly would not be against that, he seems the standout csndidate amongst the youngsters in the squad.

You just hope it won't effect his own game taking on that responsibility at his age

BigGee
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 8328
Join date : 2013-11-05
Location : London

Back to top Go down

Scotland post mortem - Page 9 Empty Re: Scotland post mortem

Post by NeilyBroon Yesterday at 7:38 am

I think he'd need to keep his passion in check, especially after seeing how frustrated he got during the japan game but he could be a good captain. McInally definitely isn't a captain but is a great player who if stays fit and regains his form may see the next WC. The other option is Watson of course, smart player and a fair cert for starting. Other than that we don't really have many other viable candidates. Hogg has captained but FB isn't great to captain from and when he has captained the game generally hasn't ended in our favour.
NeilyBroon
NeilyBroon

Posts : 1745
Join date : 2012-01-12
Age : 28
Location : Southampton

Back to top Go down

Scotland post mortem - Page 9 Empty Re: Scotland post mortem

Post by Tattie Scones RRN Yesterday at 7:51 am

NeilyBroon wrote:I think he'd need to keep his passion in check, especially after seeing how frustrated he got during the japan game but he could be a good captain. McInally definitely isn't a captain but is a great player who if stays fit and regains his form may see the next WC. The other option is Watson of course, smart player and a fair cert for starting. Other than that we don't really have many other viable candidates. Hogg has captained but FB isn't great to captain from and when he has captained the game generally hasn't ended in our favour.

With respect Neily, I disagree. It's about time we had a forward with some balls. He wasn't over passionate, he was standing up for Seymour who got suplexed. Our pack have been powderpuff for far too long and until our players start being more aggressive, we'll always play second fiddle to the top 6 teams.

Tattie Scones RRN

Posts : 1745
Join date : 2011-05-24
Age : 43
Location : Scottish Rugby Purgatory

Back to top Go down

Scotland post mortem - Page 9 Empty Re: Scotland post mortem

Post by Tramptastic Yesterday at 8:35 am

It's an interesting discussion about the captaincy - I don't know if any of you here listen to the rugby pod with Jim Hamilton but he was discussing the non-pick of a captain in 2011 where Robinson picked Kellock as captain but didn't actually pick him for the matches.

This supposedly left the players not knowing what was going on and where to take leadership from whereas other teams have had a captain picked from the outset and he gets picked as captain regardless of form.

Maybe this issue reared it's head in Japan with Townsend not knowing who to pick as captain? Barclay was off form/on the way out, Laidlaw could justifiably have been picked as captain but it looks like Townsend wanted his options open in case Price was the form choice.

McInally was probably the only real choice but then Townsend dropped him?! If in a few years time the players turn around and go "aw yeh, 2019 we had no idea what the plan was and who to take a lead from", I wouldnt be shocked.

Townsend doesn't need to pick a captain for the next 4 years, he can pick a different captain for each series of games, but he needs to pick a man at the start of a tournament and back him for each and every game.

Tramptastic

Posts : 682
Join date : 2012-10-19
Age : 29
Location : Edinburgh via Rockcliffe/Dalbeattie/Dumfries/The Wickerman Festival

Back to top Go down

Scotland post mortem - Page 9 Empty Re: Scotland post mortem

Post by BigGee Yesterday at 8:49 am

It is true though that most good teams are build around a successful captain and the team becomes synonymous with him, think:

Reid or McCaw with the ABs

John Eales with Australia

Warburton then AWJ with Wales

Martin Johnson and now Farrell with England

Have Scotland had such a captain since the David Sole era? It is hard to think of one really and it may possibly be the missing link to take us forward. There is no doubt that in the marginal moments when we have lost close games, even in that Japan game in this WC, which we could have won, we simply lacked leadership in those moments.

BigGee
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 8328
Join date : 2013-11-05
Location : London

Back to top Go down

Scotland post mortem - Page 9 Empty Re: Scotland post mortem

Post by RDW Yesterday at 8:54 am

Of that list Biggee all of them have an edge. Our captains are too polite.

Ritchie for me!

RDW
Founder
Founder

Posts : 27942
Join date : 2011-06-01
Age : 32
Location : London

Back to top Go down

Scotland post mortem - Page 9 Empty Re: Scotland post mortem

Post by NeilyBroon Yesterday at 8:57 am

To be fair under townsend the team could have had a consistent captain and still not had a clue what they were doing.

With regards to Ritchie I just meant keeping his nose clean, at least to the ref. If your captain gets penalised a lot, that's going to give the ref an opinion on the team as a whole.
NeilyBroon
NeilyBroon

Posts : 1745
Join date : 2012-01-12
Age : 28
Location : Southampton

Back to top Go down

Scotland post mortem - Page 9 Empty Re: Scotland post mortem

Post by Tramptastic Yesterday at 9:19 am

Aye but in any team you need a player that everybody instinctively listens to, when they say "shut up and listen" EVERYONE shuts up and listens in.

If the coach declares one player as captain for the tournament and says "this is my guy" and continues to back him then, whatever the game plan, it commands a bit of clarity so when things aren't going well the players can look to the captain. If your nominated world cup captain is sitting on the bunch... wheres the clarity?

Tramptastic

Posts : 682
Join date : 2012-10-19
Age : 29
Location : Edinburgh via Rockcliffe/Dalbeattie/Dumfries/The Wickerman Festival

Back to top Go down

Scotland post mortem - Page 9 Empty Re: Scotland post mortem

Post by bsando Yesterday at 9:36 am

Dropping McInally for Brown was a weird decision in the RWC. Sometimes I feel like coaches get so caught up in all the in depth analysis, selection tactics and training stats etc they forget the basics of the game. That is just one of the many examples of where the coaches got it wrong in Japan. McInally is a really good player and being a pilot and having his own coffee business outside of rugby shows he likes to keep busy. I'm not sure if he is the right man for the captaincy though.

Ritchie could be a great leader, I just wonder if he has a slight anger problem though. I've seen the red mist descend a few times when he's been playing and I think your captain has to keep a cool head in those tough, close games. Also, at 23 years old he is still pretty young and he has only just become a regular player for Scotland. However, Sam Warburton captained Wales in 2011 at the same age so maybe age means bugger all. Although Warburton had a cool head was a very consistent player.

Personally I think Johnny Gray is Scotland's captain in the making, he is Scotland's most regular starter and a more mature player. He had a stormer against Japan despite the result. He is calm and a consistent performer, which couldn't really say about anyone else who has held the captaincy in recent years. Most importantly he is well respected by all his team mates. If he can step up it may be the challenge that he needs to push his career forwards to becoming a genuine world class player.

bsando

Posts : 2414
Join date : 2011-11-27
Age : 30
Location : London

Back to top Go down

Scotland post mortem - Page 9 Empty Re: Scotland post mortem

Post by Tramptastic Yesterday at 9:46 am

I dunno about Johnny Gray, he can come across as one of our too nice guys.

Cockers saw some leadership qualities in Bradbury (before the drunken incident, but then we've all seen the video of laidlaw mashed oot of his mind on a night out so i don't think it makes much difference), maybe Bradbury? He's fair aggressive and is a forward potential?

would also be in favor of Ritchie BUT ritchie is competing with Watson for the coveted 7 shirt so Ritchie is at risk of being swapped/dropped which is not ideal

Tramptastic

Posts : 682
Join date : 2012-10-19
Age : 29
Location : Edinburgh via Rockcliffe/Dalbeattie/Dumfries/The Wickerman Festival

Back to top Go down

Scotland post mortem - Page 9 Empty Re: Scotland post mortem

Post by BigGee Yesterday at 10:03 am

I think Ritchie is the classic modern 61/2 backrow player, just as good on either side. You just need to have a carrying option at No.8 if he plays 6, something we have not always gone for.

BigGee
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 8328
Join date : 2013-11-05
Location : London

Back to top Go down

Scotland post mortem - Page 9 Empty Re: Scotland post mortem

Post by Tramptastic Yesterday at 10:27 am

Yeh, you couldn't play Ritchie, Watson and say Wilson as a backrow, the only decent carrier being Watson.

How old is Thompson? is he likely to make another world cup (injuries permitting)? Would be good to actually see him get a run of games and some proper form going.

Tramptastic

Posts : 682
Join date : 2012-10-19
Age : 29
Location : Edinburgh via Rockcliffe/Dalbeattie/Dumfries/The Wickerman Festival

Back to top Go down

Scotland post mortem - Page 9 Empty Re: Scotland post mortem

Post by jimbopip Yesterday at 10:30 am

NeilyBroon wrote:I like it. It'll probably open with the question "why in God's name diddidn't toonie make pete horne captain?"

Whistle Fixed that for you Whistle

Now that was what I was considering posting a couple of days ago. The turn this thread has taken has allowed me to think seriously about who should be captain. Interestingly Gee, your list failed to include Old Bumchin captaining England. Like him or loathe him he was an outstandingly good captain. I'll always argue that on the Lions tour when the centres were; Guscott, Gibbs, Hastings and Bumchin that Bumchin was fourth out of four on the list. However, he was always picked! I'm not bitter, though. Not at all.

Toonie has two choices, not just at captain but the whole squad: keep the same group and develop towards the next WC, rip it up and start again, as Orange Juice sang.

Toonie has always been an evolution rather than revolution type of coach. I don't think we'll see a reboot come the 6Nations.

As for the captaincy; the most successful captains embody a mixture of the coach's vision and the spirit of the team. If Jim Telfer could go into a geneticist's lab and design his dream flanker he would create Finlay Calder. Wouldn't we all? I think Toonie's captain, if he ever settles on just one, will be someone with the "Whatever it takes" mentality running through him like a stick of Blackpool Girvan rock. Mbawsa could easily be that man. Actually, Mbawsa-Bradbury-Hamish could be our first choice back row for the foreseeable future. I don't see Jonny as captain material: it didn't work at Glasgow, he's too introverted will never be our Alun Wynn Jones , let him be the best Jonny Gray ever and that'll do nicely.
I think the next long term captain will be …….Scott Cummings. The dynamism, the angles of running, the willingness to play what's in front of him and above all the unshakeable confidence in his own ability....he's Toonie's man alright. AND... he has learned to have a bit of dog about him too. He is like the hyperactive love child of Dancer and Big Bad Bob.Erm

Of course if Toonie chooses a back as captain it'll be either The Hardest Working Rugby Player In The World or The Man Who Makes Others Play Better.

jimbopip

Posts : 4945
Join date : 2012-10-14
Location : sunny Essex

Back to top Go down

Scotland post mortem - Page 9 Empty Re: Scotland post mortem

Post by bsando Yesterday at 10:36 am

Tramptastic wrote:Yeh, you couldn't play Ritchie, Watson and say Wilson as a backrow, the only decent carrier being Watson.

How old is Thompson? is he likely to make another world cup (injuries permitting)? Would be good to actually see him get a run of games and some proper form going.

Yeah I look forward to seeing how he goes injury wise at Scarlets. He did pretty well in a Scotland jersey, I liked where he was showing up in attack. His defence was questionable though, I think he looked a bit loose in that area.

bsando

Posts : 2414
Join date : 2011-11-27
Age : 30
Location : London

Back to top Go down

Scotland post mortem - Page 9 Empty Re: Scotland post mortem

Post by BigGee Yesterday at 11:03 am

jimbopip wrote:
NeilyBroon wrote:I like it. It'll probably open with the question "why in God's name diddidn't toonie make pete horne captain?"

Whistle Fixed that for you Whistle

Now that was what I was considering posting a couple of days ago. The turn this thread has taken has allowed me to think seriously about who should be captain. Interestingly Gee, your list failed to include Old Bumchin captaining England. Like him or loathe him he was an outstandingly good captain. I'll always argue that on the Lions tour when the centres were; Guscott, Gibbs, Hastings and Bumchin that Bumchin was fourth out of four on the list. However, he was always picked! I'm not bitter, though. Not at all.


You are right Jim, Carling was a good captain and a better player than he is sometimes reckoned to be but became more famous for allegedly shag*ing the Godly Diane, than for his exploits on the rugby pitch. He did sort of blow it in 1990 as well, did I ever mention that I was there!

It is a long time ago and age is certainly whithering my memory now, but I seem to remember that he did not get picked for the Lions test team and went off in a major sulk about it as well.

As I said, a very good captain of a very good team, but probably would not include him in the list of the greats.

BigGee
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 8328
Join date : 2013-11-05
Location : London

Back to top Go down

Scotland post mortem - Page 9 Empty Re: Scotland post mortem

Post by RDW Yesterday at 11:04 am

As an aside, should we not have issued an apology and paid the fine by now?

RDW
Founder
Founder

Posts : 27942
Join date : 2011-06-01
Age : 32
Location : London

Back to top Go down

Scotland post mortem - Page 9 Empty Re: Scotland post mortem

Post by SecretFly Yesterday at 11:12 am

RDW wrote:As an aside, should we not have issued an apology and paid the fine by now?

There is a public press conference planned to state why the fine shouldn't be paid .... before paying it.

SecretFly

Posts : 31124
Join date : 2011-12-12

Back to top Go down

Scotland post mortem - Page 9 Empty Re: Scotland post mortem

Post by Gooseberry Yesterday at 11:24 am

SecretFly wrote:
RDW wrote:As an aside, should we not have issued an apology and paid the fine by now?

There is a public press conference planned to state why the fine shouldn't be paid .... before paying it.


And to think the Mods accused Miaow of being childish....

Gooseberry

Posts : 5781
Join date : 2015-02-11

Back to top Go down

Scotland post mortem - Page 9 Empty Re: Scotland post mortem

Post by NeilyBroon Yesterday at 11:27 am

I'd like to see an apology video in the style of BP a la South Park.

Just Dodson repeatedly saying we're sorry whilst partaking in various wholesome activities.

NeilyBroon
NeilyBroon

Posts : 1745
Join date : 2012-01-12
Age : 28
Location : Southampton

Back to top Go down

Scotland post mortem - Page 9 Empty Re: Scotland post mortem

Post by SecretFly Yesterday at 11:52 am

Gooseberry wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
RDW wrote:As an aside, should we not have issued an apology and paid the fine by now?

There is a public press conference planned to state why the fine shouldn't be paid .... before paying it.


And to think the Mods accused Miaow of being childish....

?

SecretFly

Posts : 31124
Join date : 2011-12-12

Back to top Go down

Scotland post mortem - Page 9 Empty Re: Scotland post mortem

Post by highland_scot Yesterday at 1:32 pm

RDW wrote:As an aside, should we not have issued an apology and paid the fine by now?

I like to think that they've sent a holdall full of £1 coins, with receiver to pay the postage.
Or they've paid it in Bank of Scotland £1 notes and someone at world rugby is still counting.

highland_scot

Posts : 593
Join date : 2012-05-10

Back to top Go down

Scotland post mortem - Page 9 Empty Re: Scotland post mortem

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 9 of 9 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum