Gallagher Premiership 2019/20

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 17 Oct 2019, 2:07 pm

First topic message reminder :

Table

Pos
Team
Played
Won
Drawn
Lost
For
Against
Pts Difference
Bonus
Points
1
Bristol Bears
4
3
0
1
96
65
31
2
14
2
Northampton Saints
4
3
0
1
115
85
30
2
14
3
Sale Sharks
4
2
0
2
95
59
36
3
11
4
Gloucester Rugby
4
2
0
2
68
62
6
2
10
5
Exeter Chiefs
4
2
0
2
73
72
1
2
10
6
London Irish
4
2
0
2
85
94
-9
2
10
7
Worcester Warriors
4
2
0
2
79
89
-10
1
9
8
Bath Rugby
4
2
0
2
73
96
-13
0
8
9
Harlequins
4
1
0
3
77
98
-21
2
6
10
Wasps
4
1
0
3
83
104
-21
1
5
11
Leicester Tigers
4
1
0
3
53
97
-44
0
4
12
Saracens
4
3
0
1
86
62
24
-34
-22
Bath
Last Season - 6th

Players in: Lewis Boyce (Prop), Christian Judge (Prop), Will Stuart (Prop), Mike Williams (Utility Forward), Josh McNally (Second Row), Ollie Fox (Scrum Half)
Promoted from Academy: Miles Reid, Will Vaughan, Sam Nixon, Tom de Glanville, Will Britton, Jack Davies, Tom Doughty, Levi Davis promoted (X Factor permitting)

Players Out: Dave Attwood (Second Row), Paul Grant (Back Row), Luke Charteris (Second Row), James Wilson (Utility Back), Kahn Fotuali'i (Scrum Half), Jacques van Rooyen (Prop), Jack Wilson (Wing), Cooper Vuna (Wing), Anthony Perenise (Prop), Michael van Vuuren (Hooker), Max Lahiff (Prop)


Bristol Bears
Last Season - 9th

Players in: Dave Attwood (Second Row), Nathan Hughes (Back Row), Nicky Thomas (Prop), Max Lahiff (Prop), Tyrese Johnson-Fisher (Wing)
Promoted from Academy: Sam Bedlow, John Hawkins, Toby Fricker

Players out: Nick Haining (Back Row), George Smith (Back Row), Nick Fenton-Wells (Back Row), Joe Latta (Second Row), Tusi Pisi (Fly Half), Sione Faletau (Prop), Jack Lam (Back Row)


Exeter Chiefs
Last Season: Runners Up

Players in: Stuart Hogg (Full Back), Will Witty (Second Row), Tom Price (Second Row), Stan South (Utility Forward), Jannes Kirsten (Utility Forward), Jacques Vermeulen (Utility Forward)

Players out: Santiago Cordero (Wing/FB), Tom Lawday (Back Row), Moray Low (Prop), Ollie Atkins (Second Row), Mitch Lees (Second Row)


Gloucester
Last Season: 3rd

Players in: Joe Simpson (Scrum Half), Jamal Ford-Robinson (Prop), Chris Harris (Centre), Corne Fourie (Prop)
Promoted from Academy: Charlie Chapman, Alex Seville, Alex Craig, Ciaran Knight, Tom Seabrook, Henry Walker

Players out: Paddy McAllister (Prop), Gareth Denman (Prop), Kyle Traynor (Prop) Tom Savage (Second Row), Gareth Evans (Back Row), Ben Vellacott (Scrum Half), Henry Purdy (Centre/Wing)


Harlequins
Last Season 4th

Players in: Santiago Garcias Botta (Prop), Martin Landajo (Scrum Half), Michele Campagnaro (Centre), Scott Baldwin (Hooker), Stephan Lewies (Second Row), Glen Young (Second Row), Will Evans (Flanker), Simon Kerrod (Prop), Tom Lawday (Back Row), Travis Ismaiel (Wing), Veriniki Goneva (Wing), Tevita Cavubati (Second Row)

Players out: Alofa Alofa (Utility Back), George Merrick (Second Row), Lewis Boyce (Prop), James Horwill (Second Row), Josh Ibuanokpe (Prop), Tim Visser (Wing), Charlie Walker(Wing), Demitir Catrakilis (Fly Half), Mat Luamanu (Back Row), Luke Wallace (Flanker), Stan South (Second Row), Dave Ward (Hooker), Dave Lewis (Scrum Half), Ben Glynn (Second Row)


Leicester Tigers
Last season 11th

Players in: Jordan Taufua (Back Row), Noel Reid (Fly Half/Centre), Calum Green (Second Row), Jaco Taute (Centre), Tomas Lavanini (Second Row), Nephi Leatigaga (Prop), Charlie Clare (Hooker), Joe Thomas (Centre), Johnny McPhillips (Fly Half), EW Viljoen (Utility Back), Hanro Liebenberg (Back Row), Jordan Coghlan (Back Row)
Promoted from Academy: Tom Hardwicke, Joe Heyes, Sam Lewis, Jordan Olowefela, Tommy Reffell, Sam Aspland Robinson, Harry Simmons, Ben White

Players out: Matt Toomua (Centre), Mike Williams (Utility Forward), Graham Kitchener (Second Row), Mathew Tait (Utility Back), Will Evans (Flanker), Tom Varndell (Winger), James Voss (Second Row), Matt Smith (Centre), Gareth Owen (Centre), Michael Fitzgerald (Second Row), Brendon O'Connor (Back Row), Valentino Mapapalangi (Back Row), Fred Tuilagi (Back Row), Leonardo Sarto (Wing),  Joe Ford (Fly Half), David Feao (Prop), David Denton (Back Row), Ross McMillan (Hooker), Campese Ma'afu (Prop), Charlie Thacker (Centre)


London Irish
Last Season: Promoted

Players in: Allan Dell (Prop), Nick Phipps (Scrum Half), Curtis Rona (Wing), Sean O'Brien (Back Row), Sekope Kepu (Prop), Paddy Jackson (Fly Half), Waisake Naholo (Wing), Adam Coleman (Second Row), Ruan Botha (Second Row), Steve Mafi (Utility Forward), George Nott (Utility Forward)

Players Out: Josh McNally (Second Row), Ian Keatley (Fly Half), Brendan McKibbin (Centre), Mike Coman (Back Row), Tommy Bell (Utility Back), Topsy Ojo (Wing), Fergus Mulchrone (Centre), Luke McLean (Full Back), Sebastian de Chaves (Second Row), Ofisa Treviranus (Back Row), Greig Tonks (Utility Back),  Napolioni Nalaga (Wing), Sam Twomey (Second Row), Filo Paulo (Second Row), Manasa Saulo (Prop)


Northampton Saints
Last Season: 4th

Players in: Matt Proctor (Utility back), Owen Franks (Prop), Ryan Olowofela (Wing), Henry Taylor (Scrum Half), Michael van Vuuren (Hooker)
Promoted from Academy: Ehren Painter, Fraser Dingwall,  James Grayson,  Alex Mitchell,  Alex Moon

Players Out: Luther Burrell (Centre), Jamal Ford-Robinson (Prop), James Craig (Utility Forward), James Haskell (Back Row), Dominic Barrow (Second Row), Nafi Tuitavake (Wing), Ken Pisi (Centre)


Sale Sharks
Last Season: 7th

Players in: Jake Cooper-Woolley (Prop), Robert du Preez (Fly Half), Akker van der Merwe (Hooker), Lood de Jager (Second Row), Coenie Oosthuizen (Prop), Dan du Preez (Utility Forward), Jean-Luc du Preez (Back Row), Simon Hammersley (Full Back), Mark Wilson (Back Row)

Players Out: Andrei Ostrikov (Second Row), Mark Jennings (Centre), Alexandru Țăruș (Prop), Johnny Leota (Centre),  Paolo Odogwu (Wing), James O'Connor (Utility Back), Josh Strauss (Back Row), George Nott (Utility Forward)


Saracens
Last Season: Champions

Players in: Elliot Daly (Utility back), Rhys Carré (Prop), Jack Singleton (Hooker), Josh Ibuanokpe (Prop)
Promoted from Academy: Alistair Crossdale, Dominic Morris

Players out: Christopher Tolofua (Hooker), Sione Vailanu (Back Row), Hayden Thompson-Stringer (Prop), David Strettle (Wing), Henry Taylor (Scrum Half) Dominic Day (Second Row), Marcelo Bosch (Centre), Schalk Burger (Back Row)


Wasps
Last Season: 8th

Players in: Malakai Fekitoa (Centre), Jeffery Toomaga-Allen (Prop), Ben Vellacott (Scrum Half), Matteo Minozzi (Utility back), Sione Vailanu (Back row), Biyi Alo (Prop), Paolo Odogwu (Wing), Zach Kibirige (wing)
Promoted from academy:  Will Porter,  Callum Sirker,  Sam Spink,  Tom Willis,  Tim Cardall,  Gabriel Oghre,  Owain James, Jacob Umaga

Players out: Jake Cooper-Woolley (Prop), Nathan Hughes (Back row), Will Stuart (Prop), Elliot Daly (Centre), Joe Simpson (Scrum half), Willie le Roux (Full Back), Michele Campagnaro (Centre), Kearnan Myall (Second Row), Gabiriele Lovobalavu (Centre), Matt Mullan (Prop)


Worcester Warriors
Last Season 10th

Players in: Graham Kitchener (Second Row), Jono Kitto (Scrum Half), Melani Nanai (Wing), Ed Fidow (Wing)
Promoted from Academy: Andrew Kitchener,  Ted Hill

Players out:  Bryce Heem (Wing), Josh Adams (Wing), Darren Barry (Second Row), Wynand Olivier (Centre), Dewald Potgieter (Back row), Jack Singleton (Hooker), Jonny Arr (Scrum half), Carl Kirwan (Back row), Luke Baldwin (Scrum Half), Ben Te'o (Centre), Alafoti Fa'osiliva (Back row)


Last edited by LondonTiger on Tue 12 Nov 2019, 11:19 am; edited 6 times in total

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Post by Rinsure on Mon 02 Dec 2019, 11:00 am

bathmad wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:Bath, Wasps or Leicester will go down.

Don't want rugby to follow football but clearly new faces are needed at all three in the coaching department.

Wasps can still play some rugby and get a result here or there. I can't see past Bath or Leicester as relegation favourites now.
Neither seem capable of constructing and executing a game plan. When you look at the quality between the 2 backlines in particular of those 2 teams, it beggars belief really.

As a Wasps fan I wish I shared your confidence. We were dreadful towards the back end of last season, and despite the elongated pre-season this time around nothing has changed. Our defence is porous, discipline dreadful, and the recruitment in the backs to replace playmakers in Cips and WLR hasn't worked. Add in losing key players in Wade, Daly, Hughes... I am in no way confident of our ability to beat anyone at the moment.


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Post by bathmad on Mon 02 Dec 2019, 11:20 am

Maybe. I've said it multiple times over the last few seasons though - Bath's achilles heel is not necessarily winning games, it's getting bonus points either in victory or defeat. If someone had the stats, I'm sure they would be bottom over the last 3-4 years other than the teams that went down.
After 4 rounds of the premiership (before Euro games), Bath had won 2 out of 4 - the same as Sale in 3rd, but were already 3 points behind due to this problem.

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 02 Dec 2019, 11:33 am

bathmad wrote:Maybe. I've said it multiple times over the last few seasons though - Bath's achilles heel is not necessarily winning games, it's getting bonus points either in victory or defeat. If someone had the stats, I'm sure they would be bottom over the last 3-4 years other than the teams that went down.
After 4 rounds of the premiership (before Euro games), Bath had won 2 out of 4 - the same as Sale in 3rd, but were already 3 points behind due to this problem.

2018/19 Bath's 12 bonus points saw them finish 6th, 1 point ahead of Sale who only managed 7 bonus points. Quins with 16 bonus points finished on the same points as Bath but one place higher in the table. Five sides secured more BPs.

2017/18 Bath's 12 bonus points saw them finish one place above Glaws in 6th. Both had 11 wins but Gloucester had a draw. Four sides secured more BPs.

2016.17 Bath finished 5th with 11 BPs. Four teams had more bonus points, two above and two below them in the table.

2015/16 Bath finished 9th with 12 BPs. Only two sides obtained more bonus points.

2014/15 Bath finished 2nd with 11 BPs. Only two sides got more, and no sides secured more TBPs.

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Post by TightHEAD on Tue 03 Dec 2019, 12:51 pm

I hope Leicester go down.

So why is the rugby media scared of saying it and hoping they don't go down?
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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 03 Dec 2019, 12:54 pm

TightHEAD wrote:I hope Leicester go down.

An opinion you are entitled to, no matter the motive.

TightHEAD wrote:So why is the rugby media scared of saying it and hoping they don't go down?

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Post by propdavid_london on Tue 03 Dec 2019, 1:06 pm

Relegation isn't the worst thing to happen to clubs...in fact I am fairly sure that supporters of Quins and Saints will quite openly state that it was necessary to re-set the clock and rebuild - ultimately leading to much better future performances.

It doesn't matter what club gets relegated - they just need to see it for what it is. Its just that Tigers aren't accustomed to the lower end of the table (at the moment). There is still plenty of time to fight back up and guys like Veianu coming back will make a huge difference.

LI seems to have come back up with a decent amount of punch, Bristol are currently backing up some great performances from last season, and we all know the Exeter story going from strength to strength.

TightHead - I hadn't noticed that the media were scared of saying that Tigers might go down!

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 03 Dec 2019, 1:14 pm

I do think relegation last season would have been better for us than being consigned to another year of relegation dog fight. There are some fundamental issues that need to be sorted.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 03 Dec 2019, 1:15 pm

Also I do not believe relegation would break the club, whereas relegation for Wasps and Bath (and probably Saracens actually) could actually be a death knell if the money men left.



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Post by TightHEAD on Tue 03 Dec 2019, 2:23 pm

Yeh right! Rolling Eyes
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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 03 Dec 2019, 2:29 pm

TightHEAD wrote:Yeh right! Rolling Eyes

Sometimes it may pay to actually make clear what you mean, rather than hit and run posts. Perhaps look to contribute to debates?


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Post by TightHEAD on Tue 03 Dec 2019, 2:30 pm

Tumbleweed

Where is everyone?

This site is like a morgue these days?
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Post by formerly known as Sam on Tue 03 Dec 2019, 5:35 pm

LondonTiger wrote:I do think relegation last season would have been better for us than being consigned to another year of relegation dog fight. There are some fundamental issues that need to be sorted.

It would be tough because on one hand we would likely lose several key players but on the upside much like Quins when they went down we have a number of academy graduates pushing into the side that could be the back bone of the club for a few years. If we could retain a couple of the more vital players by loaning them out for a season like Falcons have done with Wilson then we could bounce back even better.

Until the future of the board and the coaching staff is sorted though there's nothing to suggest we won't spiral.

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Post by king_carlos on Tue 03 Dec 2019, 10:43 pm

Zach Mercer and Charlie Ewels both out for 3 months with knee injuries. Huge blows for Baths already fragile looking pack.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Wed 04 Dec 2019, 2:15 am

king_carlos wrote:Zach Mercer and Charlie Ewels both out for 3 months with knee injuries. Huge blows for Baths already fragile looking pack.
Ouch.

Bath is a good example of how money has been no guarantee of success. Wasps and Bath are also recent examples of how hard it is to back up a good season. Fully expected Bath to continue in the same vein as the 2014-5 season, and didn't expect Cipriani's departure to be such a watershed for Wasps. They really missed Goperth last season, as he might have helped Sopoaga settle in.

It's enjoyable to see everything thrown in the air this season. Still, it's far too early to know whether Bristol really can build a team which can challenge consistently for top honours, or if they will turn out to be a one season wonder too.

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Post by TJ on Wed 04 Dec 2019, 5:24 am

TightHEAD wrote:Tumbleweed

Where is everyone?

This site is like a morgue these days?

Got fed up of the small number of trolls who wreck every thread and throw around false accusations. thats why I hardly post any more

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 04 Dec 2019, 8:47 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:I do think relegation last season would have been better for us than being consigned to another year of relegation dog fight. There are some fundamental issues that need to be sorted.

It would be tough because on one hand we would likely lose several key players but on the upside much like Quins when they went down we have a number of academy graduates pushing into the side that could be the back bone of the club for a few years. If we could retain a couple of the more vital players by loaning them out for a season like Falcons have done with Wilson then we could bounce back even better.

Until the future of the board and the coaching staff is sorted though there's nothing to suggest we won't spiral.

We may have lost some players, but this season as a post WC season much better in Championship than next season being pre-lions with some guys keen to impress.

Although TH may disagree, I do believe our coaching is the worst in the league. Bobo is about the only one I would keep. Have a huge amount of respect for Geordie but he has done nothing so far to show he can cut it as the head man.


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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 04 Dec 2019, 8:49 am

king_carlos wrote:Zach Mercer and Charlie Ewels both out for 3 months with knee injuries. Huge blows for Baths already fragile looking pack.

Not good for Bath.

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Post by TightHEAD on Wed 04 Dec 2019, 8:59 am

TJ wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:Tumbleweed

Where is everyone?

This site is like a morgue these days?

Got fed up of the small number of trolls who wreck every thread and throw around false accusations.  thats why I hardly post any more

I know it can be tough at times on here sometimes, the posts some people post is laughable, talking of tough Bath are in big trouble this season, losing Ewels and Mercer and a sledge hammer blow, two of our best performing forwards.

Can't see Bath getting out of the bottom four places this season.
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Post by TightHEAD on Wed 04 Dec 2019, 9:33 am

#HooperOUT furious
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Post by formerly known as Sam on Wed 04 Dec 2019, 9:55 am

LondonTiger wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:I do think relegation last season would have been better for us than being consigned to another year of relegation dog fight. There are some fundamental issues that need to be sorted.

It would be tough because on one hand we would likely lose several key players but on the upside much like Quins when they went down we have a number of academy graduates pushing into the side that could be the back bone of the club for a few years. If we could retain a couple of the more vital players by loaning them out for a season like Falcons have done with Wilson then we could bounce back even better.

Until the future of the board and the coaching staff is sorted though there's nothing to suggest we won't spiral.

We may have lost some players, but this season as a post WC season much better in Championship than next season being pre-lions with some guys keen to impress.

Although TH may disagree, I do believe our coaching is the worst in the league. Bobo is about the only one I would keep. Have a huge amount of respect for Geordie but he has done nothing so far to show he can cut it as the head man.


Agreed. We look like a scratch side with the most basic of game plans. I had great optimism that pre season would give our coaches chance to implement a meaningful change but there's been only a small improvement (sometimes the defence works as opposed to it being like a sieve).

Boris has kept the scrum going well but as you say the rest aren't doing enough to earn their salaries. Geordie should be moved to a pathway job as he seems to have made the development set up worthwhile. The rest to be phased out with better options brought in. Borthwick as head coach and leading the forwards will remove the need for Bakewell. If we could get a DOR to work with him who could coach and attack well that would be really helpful (I dream of Wayne Smith).

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Post by Rinsure on Wed 04 Dec 2019, 11:07 am

LondonTiger wrote:Also I do not believe relegation would break the club, whereas relegation for Wasps and Bath (and probably Saracens actually) could actually be a death knell if the money men left.

From a Wasps perspective, relegation would be a crippling blow. The value of the bonds issued would go through the floor, the stadium would become (as with CCFC) a massive white elephant, and Wasps would be fighting in the Championship with Cov RFC for the title of "Best in Coventry".

There is a lot of chatter about Dai's position, and whether he will be there in the new year if results go against us. Were that to happen (which I hope it doesn't; mid-season "football sackings" don't sit well with me) the question would be of who would take over? The idea of an internal promotion doesn't inspire hope, and then you start looking at who is available and what they would bring to the club. Far better to plan for a change after the season - be that a sideways or upstairs move for Dai, with a Head Coach coming in, or a new DoR.

We will see, I guess.

Relegation would be a crippling blow indeed, but by no means off the cards. Are we better than Bath or Tigers? Can't say right now. Are we enough points better than Sarries? Unlikely to be the case. Next game in the Prem is home to Quins, and that's a must win as we've got Bristol and Saints after that.

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Post by Rinsure on Wed 04 Dec 2019, 11:28 am

king_carlos wrote:Zach Mercer and Charlie Ewels both out for 3 months with knee injuries. Huge blows for Baths already fragile looking pack.

That's really bad news for Bath. How far off fitness is Faletau?

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Wed 04 Dec 2019, 3:17 pm

Rinsure wrote:
king_carlos wrote:Zach Mercer and Charlie Ewels both out for 3 months with knee injuries. Huge blows for Baths already fragile looking pack.

That's really bad news for Bath. How far off fitness is Faletau?

Hooper is quoted as giving a pretty meh description of his recovery from injury. Sounded like they'll be no sign of him this calendar year. Maybe pre 6N?

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Post by TightHEAD on Wed 04 Dec 2019, 3:39 pm

His heads gone. I don't think we'll see him back in the blue black and white.
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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 09 Dec 2019, 9:31 am

Predicted League Table at End of Season (bookies odds)

Exeter
Northampton
Gloucester
Sale
Bristol
Harlequins
Saracens
Bath
London Irish
Worcester
Wasps
Leicester

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Post by Rinsure on Mon 09 Dec 2019, 9:33 am

LondonTiger wrote:Predicted League Table at End of Season (bookies odds)

Exeter
Northampton
Gloucester
Sale
Bristol
Harlequins
Saracens
Bath
London Irish
Worcester
Wasps
Leicester

Honestly, and with due respect to the Tigers fans, I'd take that right now.

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Post by king_carlos on Mon 09 Dec 2019, 12:31 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Predicted League Table at End of Season (bookies odds)

Exeter
Northampton
Gloucester
Sale
Bristol
Harlequins
Saracens
Bath
London Irish
Worcester
Wasps
Leicester

Harsh on Worcester from the bookies. They are a tough team to break down, particularly at home and play some really good attacking rugby now. Short of Duncan Weir being called up in an injury crisis or England taking a punt on Ted Hill they won't lose anyone to the 6 Nations either.

I'd agree with Sarries climbing that high though. Before the deduction I think they will have around 80 points, so 45 points in the table. Other than Worcester I don't see where any of the teams named below them will pick up that number of wins.

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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 09 Dec 2019, 2:54 pm

TBF I think most Tigers fans feel last place is being overly optimistic

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Post by Khouli Khan on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 12:30 pm

LondonTiger wrote:I do think relegation last season would have been better for us than being consigned to another year of relegation dog fight. There are some fundamental issues that need to be sorted.

I've been saying for years, to the chagrin of the rabid and one-eyed members of the Tigers' Official Forum, that Tigers have been in decline for years.

Relegation would be a blessing in my opinion. Reset, get a bit of humility and then build once more. Premiership survival simply seems to reinforce the club's attitude that everything must be alright - or at least, it will get better soon. A root and branch clear-out is needed.

Its ridiculous to think that Salarysins will soon overtake Tigers, despite a 35 point deduction. That's just how bad Tigers are right now.

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Post by mid_gen on Wed 11 Dec 2019, 10:46 am

[quote="TightHEAD"]Tumbleweed

Where is everyone?

This site is like a morgue these days? [/quote]

Check in occasionally, but as you say, apart from the trolls flinging excrement at each other there's little to bother coming here for. Shame, but it's what happens when you don't moderate the WUMs.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Wed 11 Dec 2019, 8:44 pm

Khouli Khan wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:I do think relegation last season would have been better for us than being consigned to another year of relegation dog fight. There are some fundamental issues that need to be sorted.

I've been saying for years, to the chagrin of the rabid and one-eyed members of the Tigers' Official Forum, that Tigers have been in decline for years.

Relegation would be a blessing in my opinion. Reset, get a bit of humility and then build once more. Premiership survival simply seems to reinforce the club's attitude that everything must be alright - or at least, it will get better soon. A root and branch clear-out is needed.

Its ridiculous to think that Salarysins will soon overtake Tigers, despite  a 35 point deduction. That's just how bad Tigers are right now.

I dunno I think a lot of people were worried about the state of our academy, coaching set up and some of the recruitment for most of the last 10 years. I have been. The worrying paralysis of fear that is gripping the board possibly the biggest concern.

We've at least fixed the academy and development pathway...

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Post by Khouli Khan on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 6:31 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Khouli Khan wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:I do think relegation last season would have been better for us than being consigned to another year of relegation dog fight. There are some fundamental issues that need to be sorted.

I've been saying for years, to the chagrin of the rabid and one-eyed members of the Tigers' Official Forum, that Tigers have been in decline for years.

Relegation would be a blessing in my opinion. Reset, get a bit of humility and then build once more. Premiership survival simply seems to reinforce the club's attitude that everything must be alright - or at least, it will get better soon. A root and branch clear-out is needed.

Its ridiculous to think that Salarysins will soon overtake Tigers, despite  a 35 point deduction. That's just how bad Tigers are right now.

I dunno I think a lot of people were worried about the state of our academy, coaching set up and some of the recruitment for most of the last 10 years. I have been. The worrying paralysis of fear that is gripping the board possibly the biggest concern.

We've at least fixed the academy and development pathway...

If you ever visited the Tigers Official forum for the last 5 years at least, you could have fooled me....

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Post by Gooseberry on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 10:42 am

Tigers forward coach gone...Borrhwick all but confirmed post 6 nations. Quite possibly too late.

The idea that relegation could have been a good thing I dont really buy. The wake up call should have come from the near miss, and not worrying about running two A teams to compete in the champions cup should have given them the ability to target league games and maybe win some.
Obviously the world cup taken a bigger toll on Tigers than many clubs, but the cap allowances they get for providing england players should have allowed some recruitment to cover and they have remained well off the pace even with the stars back.

The decline has been going on for some time, but really took a sharp turn at the start of last season. It's been a slow sink further into disaster since then despite a lot of talking up of Murphy and various academy players and new signings.

Borthwick shows the club is finally waking up to the realities of the situation. Theres still enough A quality to avoid relegation but I think pretty much all supporters now recognise that a sweeping clear out is required over the summer if nothing else than to break the negative mindset that is affecting performances of stars and kids alike.
We have seen failings from players like Youngs who is an international star and Tigers lifer, from expensive foreign imports like Polota Nau and from exciting yong talent like Olowofela have failed. It's not about types and quality of player, it seems to me to be about a broken culture on and off the field.

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Post by Khouli Khan on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 10:53 am

Gooseberry wrote:Tigers forward coach gone...Borrhwick all but confirmed post 6 nations. Quite possibly too late.

The idea that relegation could have been a good thing I dont really buy. The wake up call should have come from the near miss, and not worrying about running two A teams to compete in the champions cup should have given them the ability to target league games and maybe win some.
Obviously the world cup taken a bigger toll on Tigers than many clubs, but the cap allowances they get for providing england players should have allowed some recruitment to cover and they have remained well off the pace even with the stars back.

The decline has been going on for some time, but really took a sharp turn at the start of last season. It's been a slow sink further into disaster since then despite a lot of talking up of Murphy and various academy players and new signings.

Borthwick shows the club is finally waking up to the realities of the situation. Theres still enough A quality to avoid relegation but I think pretty much all supporters now recognise that a sweeping clear out is required over the summer if nothing else than to break the negative mindset that is affecting performances of stars and kids alike.
We have seen failings from players like Youngs who is an international star and Tigers lifer, from expensive foreign imports like Polota Nau and from exciting yong talent like  Olowofela have failed. It's not about types and quality of player, it seems to me to be about a broken culture on and off the field.

The wakeup call should have been enough - but it wasn't. Now I think relegation might be the only thing that will have the desired effect.

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Post by Margin_Walker on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 11:15 am

Relegation is a real drag. I know Saints and Quins fans sometimes get misty eyed about it, but if a club is really on a downward trajectory it doesn't really help much imo.

As a fan it's nice to visit some different grounds and the end of the playoffs has taken a fair bit of stress away. But overall you lose some good players, get very little media coverage, no foreign fixtures and have to work very hard not to yoyo once the rot has set in.

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Post by Khouli Khan on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 11:21 am

Margin_Walker wrote:Relegation is a real drag. I know Saints and Quins fans sometimes get misty eyed about it, but if a club is really on a downward trajectory it doesn't really help much imo.

As a fan it's nice to visit some different grounds and the end of the playoffs has taken a fair bit of stress away. But overall you lose some good players, get very little media coverage, no foreign fixtures and have to work very hard not to yoyo once the rot has set in.

If the club is on a downward trajectory and has no hope of improving, then that club doesn't deserve to be in the Premiership anyway. If the club has real ambition and the nouse to turn the club around, then relegation shouldn't be a problem.

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Post by Margin_Walker on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 11:33 am

Relegation will always be a problem and will cost the club financially and usually in promising players.

As a LI fan I would have taken a near miss any day.

Each to their own though

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Post by Khouli Khan on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 11:35 am

Margin_Walker wrote:Relegation will always be a problem and will cost the club financially and usually in promising players.

As a LI fan I would have taken a near miss any day.

Each to their own though

Would Saints fans agree with you? Sure they spent a few years in the doldrums after promotion, but learnt from their experience?

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Post by Margin_Walker on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 1:08 pm

They may not, but for me things have moved on and the stakes are higher financially.

I'm guessing most Worcester, Bristol and Newcastle fan would be less inclined to view it as a blessing.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 3:07 pm

Relegation would strip us of virtually all our big name players. To rebuild from there would be an epic task. Sure we'd make our way out of the championship with what we had left but in promotion it would then be difficult to rebuild without a a wealthy backer. We'd lose a lot of the sponsorship that keeps the club where it is currently, I know that we've already had some sponsors re-evaluate the worth of sponsoring us due to last season so it could be a financially painful time.

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Post by Khouli Khan on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 3:16 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:Relegation would strip us of virtually all our big name players. To rebuild from there would be an epic task. Sure we'd make our way out of the championship with what we had left but in promotion it would then be difficult to rebuild without a a wealthy backer. We'd lose a lot of the sponsorship that keeps the club where it is currently, I know that we've already had some sponsors re-evaluate the worth of sponsoring us due to last season so it could be a financially painful time.

1. Its already an epic task to rebuild from where the club is right now, i'm struggling to see the difference;

2. Yep, propping up the Premiership is going to be the norm, not the exception - so the sponsors are going to have to get used to it.

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Post by Gooseberry on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 3:16 pm

Agree Sam , whilst most clubs bounce straight back its a long road from that to a full recovery, especially if youre trying to operate in a financially secure way. And lets be straight here, missing out on the playoffs was a huge hit for Tigers prestige. Being a bottom half team last season an absolute humiliation.
 
Its not like these wake up calls are new. Theres already a huge mountain to climb to get back to where they should be (top 4, capable of getting out of a HC pool). Fighting with a hand tied behind their back playing the likes of Doncaster and Ampthill wont help them get there. 

I wouldnt expect Borthwick to hang around if it happens either.

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Post by Gooseberry on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 3:19 pm

Khouli Khan wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:Relegation would strip us of virtually all our big name players. To rebuild from there would be an epic task. Sure we'd make our way out of the championship with what we had left but in promotion it would then be difficult to rebuild without a a wealthy backer. We'd lose a lot of the sponsorship that keeps the club where it is currently, I know that we've already had some sponsors re-evaluate the worth of sponsoring us due to last season so it could be a financially painful time.

1. Its already an epic task to rebuild from where the club is right now, i'm struggling to see the difference;

2. Yep, propping up the Premiership is going to be the norm, not the exception - so the sponsors are going to have to get used to it.


Less income, loss of coaches, loss of players, loss of fans loss of ability to attract new players, not playing high quality teams to drive improvement. 

The GK Championship is a huge drop down and massive hit to finances.  It would be a huge setback in whatever half baked plans they do have for rebuilding the shattered culture at Welford road.

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Post by Khouli Khan on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 3:23 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
Khouli Khan wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:Relegation would strip us of virtually all our big name players. To rebuild from there would be an epic task. Sure we'd make our way out of the championship with what we had left but in promotion it would then be difficult to rebuild without a a wealthy backer. We'd lose a lot of the sponsorship that keeps the club where it is currently, I know that we've already had some sponsors re-evaluate the worth of sponsoring us due to last season so it could be a financially painful time.

1. Its already an epic task to rebuild from where the club is right now, i'm struggling to see the difference;

2. Yep, propping up the Premiership is going to be the norm, not the exception - so the sponsors are going to have to get used to it.


Less income, loss of coaches, loss of players, loss of fans loss of ability to attract new players, not playing high quality teams to drive improvement. 

The GK Championship is a huge drop down and massive hit to finances.  It would be a huge setback in whatever half baked plans they do have for rebuilding the shattered culture at Welford road.

Half the fans are living in the past anyway, might not be a bad thing.

I don't know, i'm still going to stick with my opinion that relegation (and its a very real threat) might not be the catastrophe people seem to think.

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Post by bluestonevedder on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 4:32 pm

Khouli Khan wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
Khouli Khan wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:Relegation would strip us of virtually all our big name players. To rebuild from there would be an epic task. Sure we'd make our way out of the championship with what we had left but in promotion it would then be difficult to rebuild without a a wealthy backer. We'd lose a lot of the sponsorship that keeps the club where it is currently, I know that we've already had some sponsors re-evaluate the worth of sponsoring us due to last season so it could be a financially painful time.

1. Its already an epic task to rebuild from where the club is right now, i'm struggling to see the difference;

2. Yep, propping up the Premiership is going to be the norm, not the exception - so the sponsors are going to have to get used to it.


Less income, loss of coaches, loss of players, loss of fans loss of ability to attract new players, not playing high quality teams to drive improvement. 

The GK Championship is a huge drop down and massive hit to finances.  It would be a huge setback in whatever half baked plans they do have for rebuilding the shattered culture at Welford road.

Half the fans are living in the past anyway, might not be a bad thing.

I don't know, i'm still going to stick with my opinion that relegation (and its a very real threat) might not be the catastrophe people seem to think.

Wouldn't say a lot of the fans are living in the past to be honest. Living in the past and yearning for what once was are very different things. Fans don't go blindly into games now believing that we have a superior forwards game or even have a chance of winning based on our records 5 or more years ago. We know we are in free fall at the moment, and from what I have seen few fans are denying it! It's just one of those horrific things where it has been so evident that we are gradually getting outclassed, but action has not been taken.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 4:47 pm

If Tigers do go down then you should sack Murphy and replace him with Jim Mallinder.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 6:10 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:If Tigers do go down then you should sack Murphy and replace him with Jim Mallinder.

No thanks we don't want Voldemort.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 7:48 pm

Perhaps not, but he is the coach that got Saints from championship rugby, to winning silverware whilst in the premiership in quite a short space of time. Possibly he’s only one to have coached an English club to do that?

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Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 7:54 pm

Is it true Mallinder turned down the offer of head coach for Cardiff Blues in early 2018?

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Post by king_carlos on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 9:09 pm

Mallinder recently left his role with the RFU to join the SRU as performance director.

By most accounts he did well in his youth development job with the RFU and is enjoying being back stage rather than pitch side.

He has a very good coaching and rugby brain but the set-up he led at Saints had reached it's expiration date. It is something that I think does happen in sports. Very good coaches will reach a point at one club where their methods have achieved about all they can and new input is needed.

It's very much what happened with Cockers at Tigers. He's undoubtedly a better coach than anyone who has come since but our decline did start with Cockers in charge. Moving on was the best thing for Cockers as well, he's thriving at Edinburgh.

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