SF1 - Match Thread - ENGLAND v NEW ZEALAND - 26/10/19 - K/O 09:00 BST

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Post by miaow on Thu 17 Oct 2019, 9:55 pm

First topic message reminder :

Again, making these early for the sake of ease and consistency.

ENGLAND

Team:Daly; Watson, Tuilagi, Farrell (capt), May; Ford, Youngs; M Vunipola, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Lawes, Curry, Underhill, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Marler, Cole, Kruis, Wilson, Heinz, Slade, Joseph.

NEW ZEALAND

Team: Beauden Barrett; Sevu Reece, Jack Goodhue, Anton Lienert-Brown, George Bridge; Richie Mo'unga, Aaron Smith; Joe Moody, Codie Taylor, Nepo Laulala, Brodie Retallick, Sam Whitelock, Scott Barrett, Ardie Savea, Kieran Read (capt).

Replacements: Dane Coles, Ofa Tuungafasi, Angus Ta'avao, Patrick Tuipulotu, Sam Cane, TJ Perenara, Sonny Bill Williams, Jordie Barrett.



Venue: Yokohama
Referee: Nigel Owens
AR1: Romain Poite
AR2: Pascal Gauzere
TMO: Marius Joncker


Last edited by miaow on Thu 24 Oct 2019, 1:52 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post by ebop on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 11:01 am

I think England will have a mental block if they go behind
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Post by Dirtydave on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 11:02 am

You avant call that Irish performance a mental block...

The mistakes ireland made were very out of character, and the performance was nothing too short of embarrassing, but there are mitigating factors!

I'm all for personal responsibility, but when the entire 15 look like they're running in custard, you have to consider a wider context

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 11:04 am

Anyway, I do hate this mystique thing about the ABs.  In a way it's disrespectful to them.  This idea that you get over a 'fear' of them by beating them.  I think when you're in the middle of a game against them and it's not going well, you realise it's not mystique beating you but just bloody good rugby.
They're beatable if you play better rugby.  But there's not much of 'better' about when the Comparison Sites do their analysis.

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Post by Dirtydave on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 11:12 am

Secret

It's not just the AB's though, look at a decade of Wales v Aus, many games wales have dominated, and always managed to lose.


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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 11:17 am

Scottrf wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Dirtydave wrote:Valid point, my apologies...

I'll stick to the thread topic!

I think the England packs relentless power and athleticism will keep them in touch going into the final 10, maybe even with a lead.

From there england have NZ beaters with experience of doing so on NZ soil, Farrell, Tuilagi, Daly etc...

Manu hasn't been in a wining team against NZ in NZ.

Mako, Marler, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Lawes, Farrell, Daly & Watson have. (Ably assisted by Welsh and Irish colleagues)

Also Youngs, Cole and Joseph.

None of those 3 have been in a winning 23 against NZ in NZ, Scott. Youngs and Cole did play in 2012 win though.

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Post by Dirtydave on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 11:22 am

There's a lot of pedantry on this thread, is that a regular theme on this site?

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 11:25 am

Pedantry is okay as long as you don't overuse it. If you overuse it, the opposition can eventually find solutions to run around it and score some beautiful tries.

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Post by ebop on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 11:26 am

Dirtydave wrote:The mistakes ireland made were very out of character, and the performance was nothing too short of embarrassing, but there are mitigating factors!
What were the ‘mitigating’ factors?
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Post by BamBam on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 11:27 am

44 posts on the day of joining is very impressive

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Post by Dirtydave on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 11:33 am

1 mitigating factor was having to play an extra game.

2 games in 7 days is worse that 2 in 13 days right?

Which would you prefer?

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 11:33 am

BamBam wrote:44 posts on the day of joining is very impressive

...and exactly 40 characters in your comment Bam. Good show!

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 11:34 am

And I thought it was you who had been asked to take a break bam!

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Post by BamBam on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 11:41 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:And I thought it was you who had been asked to take a break bam!

Only by miaow

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Post by ebop on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 11:48 am

Dirtydave wrote:1 mitigating factor was having to play an extra game.

2 games in 7 days is worse that 2 in 13 days right?

Which would you prefer?
Hardly a big deal imo. Ireland played Samoa 7 days before playing the ABs and beat them comfortably. The ABs didn’t get to play a hapless Italian side 7 days prior but no doubt trained as if they’d had a game to get rid of the physical/emotional energy. I think you’re barking up the wrong tree and looking for excuses as to why Wales looked poor against France.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 11:49 am

He is. There is a thread on it ebop.

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Post by ebop on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 11:50 am

I know, I’m sorry to keep it alive here, giving myself an uppercut now
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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 11:51 am

Dirtydave wrote:There's a lot of pedantry on this thread, is that a regular theme on this site?

Pedantry is our biggest USP.


More seriously in any online discussion that is by it's very nature consisting of time lapses, people do need to be sure exactly what others are saying. So yes it may seem like pedantry, but perhaps it is just fact checking. Face to face it would be much easier:

Mr Blue: blah, blah, blah
Mr White: Ah but what about blah
Mr Blue: Yeah but you know what I mean
Mr White: I suppose
Mr Orange: F***, you just cut his f***ing ear off

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 11:51 am

ebop wrote:I know, I’m sorry to keep it alive here, giving myself an uppercut now

Hard to deliver with the requisite force.

Perhaps punch yourself in the balls?

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Post by Dirtydave on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 11:53 am

Hahhahahahahahaha

I just spat my tea out, thanks London!!

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Post by BamBam on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 11:54 am

LondonTiger wrote:
ebop wrote:I know, I’m sorry to keep it alive here, giving myself an uppercut now

Hard to deliver with the requisite force.

Perhaps punch yourself in the balls?

Laugh

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Post by ebop on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 11:54 am

SecretFly wrote:
BamBam wrote:44 posts on the day of joining is very impressive

...and exactly 40 characters in your comment Bam.  Good show!
God damn it, you made me count to see if you got it right
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Post by SecretFly on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 11:56 am

LondonTiger wrote:
Dirtydave wrote:There's a lot of pedantry on this thread, is that a regular theme on this site?

Pedantry is our biggest USP.


More seriously in any online discussion that is by it's very nature consisting of time lapses, people do need to be sure exactly what others are saying. So yes it may seem like pedantry, but perhaps it is just fact checking. Face to face it would be much easier:

Mr Blue: blah, blah, blah
Mr White: Ah but what about blah
Mr Blue: Yeah but you know what I mean
Mr White: I suppose
Mr Orange: F***, you just cut his f***ing ear off

Most interesting chat I've heard in quite a time on 606. Which thread was that on?

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 11:56 am

ebop wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
BamBam wrote:44 posts on the day of joining is very impressive

...and exactly 40 characters in your comment Bam.  Good show!
God damn it, you made me count to see if you got it right

Though forums that limit characters count spaces as a character - thus could be 49. Wasteful.

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 11:57 am

ebop wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
BamBam wrote:44 posts on the day of joining is very impressive

...and exactly 40 characters in your comment Bam.  Good show!
God damn it, you made me count to see if you got it right

I'll save you future pain, Ebop...I'm always right Wink

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 11:58 am

SecretFly wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Dirtydave wrote:There's a lot of pedantry on this thread, is that a regular theme on this site?

Pedantry is our biggest USP.


More seriously in any online discussion that is by it's very nature consisting of time lapses, people do need to be sure exactly what others are saying. So yes it may seem like pedantry, but perhaps it is just fact checking. Face to face it would be much easier:

Mr Blue: blah, blah, blah
Mr White: Ah but what about blah
Mr Blue: Yeah but you know what I mean
Mr White: I suppose
Mr Orange: F***, you just cut his f***ing ear off

Most interesting chat I've heard in quite a time on 606.  Which thread was that on?

It was on the which biscuit is better for dunking thread.

Mr Blonde was upset that a Mod had suggested a penguin.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 11:58 am

Have we derailed this enough yet?

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Post by ebop on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 12:01 pm

SecretFly wrote:
ebop wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
BamBam wrote:44 posts on the day of joining is very impressive

...and exactly 40 characters in your comment Bam.  Good show!
God damn it, you made me count to see if you got it right

I'll save you future pain, Ebop...I'm always right Wink
I know,  I counted 41 and thought, nah, I’m wrong, Fly has got this
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Post by tigertattie on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 12:10 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Have we derailed this enough yet?

Derailed like the Scottish Hype train? drumroll ............... Run

Too soon? Sorry
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Post by tigertattie on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 12:13 pm

ebop wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
ebop wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
BamBam wrote:44 posts on the day of joining is very impressive

...and exactly 40 characters in your comment Bam.  Good show!
God damn it, you made me count to see if you got it right

I'll save you future pain, Ebop...I'm always right Wink
I know,  I counted 41 and thought, nah, I’m wrong, Fly has got this

40 not including spaces, 49 if you do. Hoepfully this agrument has now been settled? Or has a moral vicrory been called for?
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Post by BamBam on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 12:13 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
ebop wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
BamBam wrote:44 posts on the day of joining is very impressive

...and exactly 40 characters in your comment Bam.  Good show!
God damn it, you made me count to see if you got it right

Though forums that limit characters count spaces as a character - thus could be 49. Wasteful.

What a great idea, we should implement that here! I can think of an excellent guinea pig to test it on too

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Post by tigertattie on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 12:18 pm

#LeaveMySpacesAloneOrIllJustFindNewWaysOfPostingWithoutNeedingThem
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Post by Scottrf on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 12:29 pm

BamBam wrote:What a great idea, we should implement that here! I can think of an excellent guinea pig to test it on too

Cat surely. Guinea pigs squeak.

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 12:31 pm

Scottrf wrote:
BamBam wrote:What a great idea, we should implement that here! I can think of an excellent guinea pig to test it on too

Cat surely. Guinea pigs squeak.

Only when they punch themselves in the balls.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 12:33 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
BamBam wrote:What a great idea, we should implement that here! I can think of an excellent guinea pig to test it on too

Cat surely. Guinea pigs squeak.

Only when they punch themselves in the balls.

I think that's how my younger daughter's guinea pig committed suicide.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 12:38 pm

On the Times podcast, Stephen Jones was berating Jones for going back to Ford at 10. He claimed that all good sides know their best starting XV, and don't look to chop and change.

Dallaglio was on the same podcast, so I was surprised he didn't remind Jones that Woodward chose Tindall for the QF in 2003, then Catt for the SF, before switching back to Tindall in the final. He did so specifically to counter the tactical threat he saw the opposition posing (Betsen gunning for Wikinson in the SF, and Mortlock's physicality in the final)

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Post by Scottrf on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 12:40 pm

It's a bit silly really. People don't drive rally cars in F1 and vice versa. Why on earth does Jones have to pick the exact same team every week?

He's hardly gone for an untested structure.

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Post by BamBam on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 12:41 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:On the Times podcast, Stephen Jones was berating Jones for going back to Ford at 10. He claimed that all good sides know their best starting XV, and don't look to chop and change.

Dallaglio was on the same podcast, so I was surprised he didn't remind Jones that Woodward chose Tindall for the QF in 2003, then Catt for the SF, before switching back to Tindall in the final. He did so specifically to counter the tactical threat he saw the opposition posing (Betsen gunning for Wikinson in the SF, and Mortlock's physicality in the final)

You've just made it a lot more time consuming for Fly to count characters


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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 12:41 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:On the Times podcast, Stephen Jones was berating Jones for going back to Ford at 10. He claimed that all good sides know their best starting XV, and don't look to chop and change.

Dallaglio was on the same podcast, so I was surprised he didn't remind Jones that Woodward chose Tindall for the QF in 2003, then Catt for the SF, before switching back to Tindall in the final. He did so specifically to counter the tactical threat he saw the opposition posing (Betsen gunning for Wikinson in the SF, and Mortlock's physicality in the final)

Stephen Jones is not happy unless he can be showing he knows more than anyone else. I would argue that the best teams have a variety of players available allowing them to shift between styles. Certainly NZ do not palye a settled "First XV" all teh time.

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Post by Rinsure on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 12:41 pm

SecretFly wrote:Anyway, I do hate this mystique thing about the ABs.  In a way it's disrespectful to them.  This idea that you get over a 'fear' of them by beating them.  I think when you're in the middle of a game against them and it's not going well, you realise it's not mystique beating you but just bloody good rugby.
They're beatable if you play better rugby.  But there's not much of 'better' about when the Comparison Sites do their analysis.

Enjoyed this piece on RugbyPass about the mental aspect of being the best. Or not.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/englands-biggest-hurdle-this-weekend-could-well-be-what-cricket-legend-brian-lara-once-eluded-to

Talking of pedantry, the URL uses 'eluded', meaning to evade, while the article uses 'alluded', which is the correct word. One job, eh?

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 12:49 pm

Thinking about cricket - England largely won due to a MotM performance by NZ born Ben Stokes (he has now been nominated for New Zealander of the Year Very Happy )

Would be pretty amusing if England win this semi final with a MotM performance from NZ born Mako Wink

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Post by ebop on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 12:56 pm

England didn’t win the CWC, it was a draw Wink
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Post by Soul Requiem on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 12:58 pm

ebop wrote:England didn’t win the CWC, it was a draw Wink

Aside from the bit where they won and are world champions.

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Post by Big on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 1:27 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
ebop wrote:England didn’t win the CWC, it was a draw Wink

Aside from the bit where they won and are world champions.

He's just preparing for the inevitable England win by penalty shootout tomorrow. After we've then won the final against SA/Aus, he can then claim that as we technically drew with them they are joint winners with us. It's a bit lame but it's the only hope NZers have Wink

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Post by ebop on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 1:34 pm

Winning by boundaries is a bit embarrassing though right?
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Post by Heaf on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 1:47 pm

Less embarrassing than beating France by 1 point with the help of the ref Whistle

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Post by Sharkey06 on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 1:50 pm

I think England’s slim chance of beating New Zealand went the minute Nigel Owens replaced Jaco Peyper as referee. Owens likes the game to flow and doesn’t get over concerned about infractions at the breakdown, the odd forward pass, etc – which all plays into New Zealand’s hands.

New Zealand are much more adept at interpreting the referee and reacting accordingly. England’s inability to react to Owens non-refereeing of the breakdown against Scotland in 2018, Italy’s refusal to maul in 2017, etc are just a couple of examples in a long rap sheet. I don’t think this is a vintage All Blacks, but the other 3 semi-finalists are all flawed teams in their own ways, none of whom sadly seem capable of giving them a game.

I’ll watch Saturday’s game but not with any hope or expectations of an England win. Oh well at least England will have the third/fourth place play-off to look forward to and we can trot out the fact we were the best team in the world - if it wasn’t for those pesky All Blacks.

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Post by Heaf on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 1:56 pm

Sharkey06 wrote:I think England’s slim chance of beating New Zealand went the minute Nigel Owens replaced Jaco Peyper as referee.   Owens likes the game to flow and doesn’t get over concerned about infractions at the breakdown, the odd forward pass, etc – which all plays into New Zealand’s hands.

New Zealand are much more adept at interpreting the referee and reacting accordingly.  England’s inability to react to Owens non-refereeing of the breakdown against Scotland in 2018, Italy’s refusal to maul in 2017, etc are just a couple of examples in a long rap sheet.  I don’t think this is a vintage All Blacks, but the other 3 semi-finalists are all flawed teams in their own ways, none of whom sadly seem capable of giving them a game.

I’ll watch Saturday’s game but not with any hope or expectations of an England win.  Oh well at least England will have the third/fourth place play-off to look forward to and we can trot out the fact we were the best team in the world - if it wasn’t for those pesky All Blacks.

Hopefully somebody will have pointed out the blatant 'in at the side' just before one of the ABs tries against Ireland and he'll pay more attention ... but probably not.

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 2:00 pm

ebop wrote:Winning by boundaries is a bit embarrassing though right?

Not as embarrassing as losing by boundaries.

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Post by dyrewolfe on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 2:02 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Thinking about cricket - England largely won due to a MotM performance by NZ born Ben Stokes (he has now been nominated for New Zealander of the Year Very Happy )

Would be pretty amusing if England win this semi final with a MotM performance from NZ born Mako Wink


Would be even funnier if it lead to NZ poaching some English-born players (never happen I know). Laugh


Quite honestly, I have to say I'm not expecting England to win. I will be satisfied if we manage a respectable margin of defeat (unlike the Irish).

England have been undoubtedly good in this tournament...I just think NZ look better. Sad

I don't think there is any shame in bowing out in the semis to the reigning world champions.
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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 2:04 pm

Duty281 wrote:
ebop wrote:Winning by boundaries is a bit embarrassing though right?

Not as embarrassing as losing by boundaries.

Haha

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