SF2 - Match Thread - WALES v SOUTH AFRICA - 27/10/19 - K/O 09:00 GMT

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Post by miaow on Thu 17 Oct 2019, 9:56 pm

First topic message reminder :

Again, making these early for the sake of ease and consistency.

WALES

Team:Halfpenny; North, J Davies, Parkes, Adams; Biggar, G Davies; Wyn Jones, Owens, Francis, Ball, Alun Wyn Jones (capt), Wainwright, Moriarty, Tipuric.

Replacements: Dee, R Carre, D Lewis, Beard, Shingler, T Williams, Patchell, Watkin.

SOUTH AFRICA

South Africa: Le Roux; Nkosi, Am, De Allende, Mapimpi; Pollard, De Klerk; Mtawarira, Mbonambi, Malherbe, Etzebeth, De Jager, Kolisi (capt), Du Toit, Vermeulen

Replacements: Marx, Kitschoff, Koch, Snyman, Mostert, Louw, H Jantjies, Steyn



Venue: Yokohama
Referee:
AR1:
AR2:
TMO:


Last edited by miaow on Thu 24 Oct 2019, 1:51 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 12:03 pm

BamBam wrote:Missing a clear forward pass before a second even more clear pass was called when Adams broke down the left wing early on too

Garces wasn't great but he was consistent

He called it. Weird, you’re only pointing things out that supposedly went our way, even though the forward pass was called.....

I also think he was poor for both. Hopefully he retires because the performances in the previous games I’ve alluded to were shocking.

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Post by lostinwales on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 12:04 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Why is it wrong to criticise Garces? He cost Wales the game against average Ireland before the tournament, and almost cost us the game against Australia. The guy just chooses not to give Wales penalties but waits for his team do so.

You can be much more astute than this but unfortunately it does seem to be your default setting. I am not sure if Wales are always pure as driven snow, or that they are the most wronged team in history.

What on earth are you talking about? It’s already been proven that he did in the Ireland and Australia game (14 points to Aus hello?) - go back and read it. I didn’t say he was the reason Wales lost today. Funny how the English did say he was poor before this game, but now he’s the best thing since sliced bread...

Nobody is saying he was any good. A small number of people are implying he favoured one side over the other

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Post by Heaf on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 12:04 pm

Wow - pretty much everyone is saying he was poor actually - just not one-sided ....

And if it's been proved he did what you say how is he still being allowed to officiate?

And again with the English thing - pretty sure Eirebilly isn't English and he's saying the same ...

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 12:05 pm

Today I don’t believe he favoured any one side... SA deservedly won👏

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Post by BamBam on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 12:05 pm

I was countering the point you made about everything he missed for Wales by saying he missed stuff for SA too

Consistent but poor

Happy to have Nige in the final tbh, think he suits us better

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 12:06 pm

Heaf, isn’t that the question millions of people have been asking?

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Post by Heaf on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 12:08 pm

They've been questioning his overall competence - whereas you seem to be suggesting bias?

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Post by Soul Requiem on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 12:09 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Why is it wrong to criticise Garces? He cost Wales the game against average Ireland before the tournament, and almost cost us the game against Australia. The guy just chooses not to give Wales penalties but waits for his team do so.

You can be much more astute than this but unfortunately it does seem to be your default setting. I am not sure if Wales are always pure as driven snow, or that they are the most wronged team in history.

What on earth are you talking about? It’s already been proven that he did in the Ireland and Australia game (14 points to Aus hello?) - go back and read it. I didn’t say he was the reason Wales lost today. Funny how the English did say he was poor before this game, but now he’s the best thing since sliced bread...

Nobody has come remotely close to saying that, he was garbage all game and to be honest I do think he favoured South Africa at the breakdown.

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Post by Scottrf on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 12:09 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Why is it wrong to criticise Garces? He cost Wales the game against average Ireland before the tournament, and almost cost us the game against Australia. The guy just chooses not to give Wales penalties but waits for his team do so.

You can be much more astute than this but unfortunately it does seem to be your default setting. I am not sure if Wales are always pure as driven snow, or that they are the most wronged team in history.

What on earth are you talking about? It’s already been proven that he did in the Ireland and Australia game (14 points to Aus hello?) - go back and read it. I didn’t say he was the reason Wales lost today. Funny how the English did say he was poor before this game, but now he’s the best thing since sliced bread...

You're such a martyr. 'The English' on this thread wished Wales good luck and offered commiserations. Not everyone has it in for you.

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Post by Heaf on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 12:12 pm

And nobody has said anything remotely like him being the best thing since sliced bread ... and most of the English I think were rooting for Wales.


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Post by mikey_dragon on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 12:12 pm

Heaf wrote:They've been questioning his overall competence - whereas you seem to be suggesting bias?

The only way we could explain the performance in the matches against Ireland and then Australia. If you’re suggesting that we’re going after him, then we should, but we aren’t. Some other people already did that, and they aren’t welsh.

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Post by Heaf on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 12:14 pm

You said it had been proved (ie not just someone's opinion) - would be interested to see that and then how RW justify keeping him on ...


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Post by owen10ozzy on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 12:15 pm

Video doing the rounds now on twitter of a S.African player punching Welsh player in the maul; repeatedly too (3 punches thrown I believe) ..obviously missed by ref and TMO in game but definitely suspect will be flagged now and suspect whoever it was is missing the final.

Regards today ...I'm English but also want the home nations to do well...but bar a 15 minute period in 2nd half, Wales looked 2nd best throughout. Going into the World Cup question was whether thhe had enough creatively about them. Was shown today they didn't; 16 phases at one point and they consistently tried to get through a forward line that was knocking them back. Thought Patchell added more than Biggar when he came on and do wonder if he'd have been the better option from then outset but as they say hindsight is wonderful.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 12:27 pm

Heaf wrote:You said it had been proved (ie not just someone's opinion) - would be interested to see that and then how RW justify keeping him on ...

It was stuff I noticed in the game. We had to deal with poor Poite and then Garces. Garces allowed Ireland free reign at the breakdown, probably our biggest strength. He allowed Porter and Healy to pull down the scrum and penalised Wales (in both games not just Dublin). He also flagged up high tackles that weren’t high, two critical ones against Williams and Navidi - footage posted on thread. Ireland have a very average game plan which Wales are better at - our last 3 losses to them have relied on these incorrect calls otherwise they struggle to score points. 

I pointed out the lack of yellow card for Hooper and 14 point swing during the Aus game. Because of the crying from the Aussies, rather unbelievably, our media responded and collated what I already said. https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wales-v-australia-myths-debunked-17005364?fbclid=IwAR3UsBjT5FkMqPa3s-9TD6Aptg4IIOtL9j3rIBLHfA8lI8wvtJW_zr1A6qI#ICID=Android_WalesOnlineNewsApp_AppShare - looking back it was actually Poite and not Garces. Which leads me to conclude that both French refs are shocking and should retire immediately. 

Garces also officiated our game against Fiji, in his usual manner. What’s the news coming in now that he ignored a punch on our player during this game against SA, can’t say I’m surprised.

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Post by Scottrf on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 12:29 pm

It's almost as if when you go into a game believing a referee will be biased against you, you can find evidence. There's your bias, confirmation bias.

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Post by Heaf on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 12:33 pm

Mikey we're all agreeing he's poor and it's entirely possible Wales MAY have had more poor decisions against them in some matches (although opposing fans will likely say the same) - however that's some distance from proving he's biased against Wales IMO.

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Post by The Oracle on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 12:50 pm

Wtf?! I leave the thread for an hour and all hell breaks loose!

I think no.9 started this with blaming the ref. Silly stuff. I don’t think Garces was bad to be honest. At no point was I screaming at the TV that Garces had done something wrong or got something wrong. Don’t think he negatively influenced the score or outcome at all.
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Post by mikey_dragon on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 12:50 pm

That’s just my opinion that he’s biased against Wales, but I believe the same of Poite too... Anyway, i think just about enough has been said on the ref-bashing front.

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Post by protea438 on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 12:56 pm

Thing is puzzling me everyone is complaining about Bok 'style of play'tm

But England only scored one try in their match and everyone is going gaga.

The Boks lead the try scoring table (although I will give it to New Zealand because they were close to us with a washed out game). England were to far back to catch second place


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Post by BigGee on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 12:58 pm

I think everyone has had enough of the ref bashing, the consensus seems to be that he was poor, but not bias, so lets move on

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Post by majesticimperialman on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 1:01 pm

Wales lost because they did not put more points on SA as SA put on Wales. Was it about 14 phases at one point and could not get over the line. 

SA won Wales lost end of.

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Post by The Oracle on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 1:06 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:Wales lost because they did not put more points on SA as SA put on Wales. Was it about 14 phases at one point and could not get over the line. 

SA won Wales lost end of.

Ummm, that big phase play with 18 phases ended in Adams’ try!
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Post by The Oracle on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 1:13 pm

Gotta feel for Gats - final game in charge, the end of his legacy, will be a dead rubber against his home nation, the one and only team he couldn’t beat in his tenure, and against a coach in Hansen who he’s had many run ins with over the years, and an All Blacks side who will be p*ssed at losing the semi and going hell for leather for a win.

Odds of a Wales won?!

Brutal sport sometimes!
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Post by majesticimperialman on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 1:14 pm

The Oracle wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:Wales lost because they did not put more points on SA as SA put on Wales. Was it about 14 phases at one point and could not get over the line. 

SA won Wales lost end of.

Ummm, that big phase play with 18 phases ended in Adams’ try!
If you look again, Adams after a scrum to Wales.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 1:16 pm

The genius of Madge is nothing but riveting, sometimes. No idea why he’s still allowed to post on Wales threads.

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Post by BamBam on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 1:19 pm

Maybe you should request a badge stating that you're the gatekeeper on Welsh threads mikey

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Post by The Oracle on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 1:22 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:Wales lost because they did not put more points on SA as SA put on Wales. Was it about 14 phases at one point and could not get over the line. 

SA won Wales lost end of.

Ummm, that big phase play with 18 phases ended in Adams’ try!
If you look again, Adams after a scrum to Wales.

Yes Maj. Wales put together 18 or something phases, the Boks had to infringe to stop us and from the scrum we opted for we shipped it to Adams to score. So that amount of phases, and that passage of play, ended in a try. We did not lose possession in that time, Boks did not turn over and clear their lines for us to run back. It was all the same bit of play.

Love your first sentence there though, Maj! ‘Wales lost because they did not put more points on SA as SA put on Wales’. Please tell me you meant something else?! Has there ever been a team EVER who lost by scoring more?! Top analysis there my friend!


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Post by lostinwales on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 1:26 pm

protea438 wrote:Thing is puzzling me everyone is complaining about Bok 'style of play'tm

But England only scored one try in their match and everyone is going gaga.

The Boks lead the try scoring table (although I will give it to New Zealand because they were close to us with a washed out game). England were to far back to catch second place

Well we were lucky not only to avoid the might of Canada or Namibia in the pool stages but to also dodge playing France altogether.

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Post by protea438 on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 1:39 pm

lostinwales wrote:
protea438 wrote:Thing is puzzling me everyone is complaining about Bok 'style of play'tm

But England only scored one try in their match and everyone is going gaga.

The Boks lead the try scoring table (although I will give it to New Zealand because they were close to us with a washed out game). England were to far back to catch second place

Well we were lucky not only to avoid the might of Canada or Namibia in the pool stages but to also dodge playing France altogether.

I dont think England were going to score 11 tries against the french. Although a lot is being said around just one try

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 1:43 pm

Hey I'm pretty happy if that's the optimal style of play from south africa.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 1:45 pm

BamBam wrote:Maybe you should request a badge stating that you're the gatekeeper on Welsh threads mikey

Agreed. My badge to say Gatekeeper. Your badge to say Snowflake Wink.

who wants to be Pagemaster?

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Post by Taylorman on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 2:15 pm

Well done Boks, fairly predictable result, horrible match. Great to see our friend Garces has many extra fans.

Again a NH SH final, England should take that out easily but you never know, bokke have won finals before being underdogs.


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Post by miaow on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 2:29 pm

Gutted, but what a poor game - as expected, but not quite to that extent.

Don't think Garces was poor, personally. You know you get laissez-faire with him. Didn't think he missed anything glaring. He let the game flow in his own sort of shoulder-shrugging way.

From Wales, it was a monumental effort in how to play rugby when you're getting absolutely smashed in every single contact. Ultimately, it came down to 2 chances in the last 8 minutes - Wales with sustained pressure and a lineout outside the 22, and then SA with the opposite. Wales probably pulled the ball out of the maul too early when it looked well set up - but wasn't moving. SA rumbled it forward and won the penalty.

Pollard did what he did 4 years ago, find his kicking boots.

Not sure Wales 'deserved' to win but equally I don't think SA did either. They looked the 'better' team with regards to physicality, but Wales played the smarter rugby second half.

Good calls from the bench. Tomos Williams is clearly a better kicker than Gareth Davies and it showed. Patchell for Biggar? Hard to say. Don't think either nail that drop goal. North going off was terminal for our attacking hopes and as we showed on their goalline, we weren't really going to score any other way than a defensive lapse and an overlap. Nice to see the two props on early and offer something in the loose. Wanted to see Shingler early as he carried well and won a lineout when he was on. In the end, Wales' runners didn't get a sniff.

It's a weird feeling. I think both sides - but particularly Wales with our injuries - must have felt a final against England was something of a tainted prize giving how poor that game was in comparison. I thought Wales did well with some nice first phase moves, shame about the forward pass to Adams, and the same with Biggar back inside the 1/2P. All of that comes from SA's utter dominance of the contact from 1-15. Jake Ball was again the only man to get over the gainline. North may have made a difference late on but once he was injured, I think any chances of beating England in the final slipped away as well. You simply cannot play without big bashers in your side - as De Allende proved with what was a really soft try to concede.

Bit flat after that. After abut 5 minutes it was pretty ominous and to pull it back to 16-16 against the odds - it's a testament to SA making mistakes under Welsh pressure, and grit and determination, but there simply wasn't enough threat in the team. In the end, all they needed was one big carry in those last 7 minutes, one big smash through a weak shoulder - a Tuilagi, a Vunipola - and that would have possibly been enough to squeeze the game and 3 more points to get to the final.

In the end it's disappointing. Massively. Particularly as the game seemed to be on an upward trajectory in Wales' favour, only to slip away at the end. And after years and years of last minute losses in Gatland's era, we have finish with another one.

Anyway.

Disappointed. Very much. I thought SA had lost their hearts and were flagging massively and to give away those 2 penalties to kill the game through just holding on and hoping - fine margins, but just once you wish Wales would force the win, and try and roll the ball on to the 5m line and make SA play.

The trophy looks like it's England's as in spite of SA's bulk, they don't appear to have the accuracy at 9 and 10. Pollard looked good but then faded massively, and more than that, their hearts and minds looked shorn of confidence once Wales drew level. If England get early tries it could be curtains early on, but you never know - that physicality always gives them a chance.

No doubt a terrible game for the neutral.

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Post by miaow on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 2:31 pm

Oh, and we've got a hammering against the All Blacks to look forward to as well...excellent...

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Post by miaow on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 2:50 pm

Also thought Moriarty did well as well. Tough old game for him and a bit ropey on the restart receipt, but one of the few who seemed to get much headway with ball in hand, plucked the ball out from deep in the scrum for the try - a good performance.

What can you say about a rugby game where you barely get over the gainline, and they get over it every time? When you're so obviously outmatched physically that from the first few phases you know they're going to punish you if you get isolated, get smashed back, stay up too high, make too much ground without support. Wales worked so hard and yet could still have won the game. Fine, fine margins.

1/2P played well as well. Faf's kicking was horrible and it's like a scrappy boxer - harder to fight than a classy one in some regards. Just all over the place. I'm trying to think how much difference Liam Williams or Navidi or any of the other injured players would have made - aside from the fundamental weaknesses/physical disparity, and eventhough he didn't have a dreadful game, I'm convinced Wales need to make it a priority to find a ball playing but powerful 12 to fill in for Parkes within 12 months. It's not just today, but that ability to shift it out and have someone - not too unlike Farrell, but ideally like Henson around 2008 - who can do anything and everything you need in rugby is vital. Willie Le Roux cropped up with a few interventions, and I just don't think Wales have that second playmaker in Liam Williams, so 12 seems the ideal position.

No one really putting their hand up for it, unfortunately. Watkin did ok on the wing - one strike move in North's place where he took the ball up but made no ground - but he looks much better at 13 to me. A solid defensive 13 but not even power for 12, and not quite the footballing skills either. The ability to play both sides of the ruck is a pretty basic one in rugby and that's a huge one for Wales. When you consider the game feels like it's becoming a game of 3 types in the backs - ball playing/playmaking halfbacks; big crashball pacey units; flying and/or jinking finishers - Wales don't really have too many who fit this mould.

The worst way to lose really - a late concession of points in a game that never really got going. Still not sure what to make of it. Disappointing all round. Just too much of a step up from the club game to the test arena, I think. There's so little to fall back on for these players if/when the gameplan fails - as it did today. No doubt part of the gameplan was parity in the tackle, and they didn't get that for 80 minutes.

Felt Wales needed a fast start as well - points early doors - and that may have changed the game as well.

Can't be too gutted as they did claw their way back in to the game, but...it's another so close so far, and you wonder, now, if this Wales team has had its golden period without winning the RWC. With Gatland going, the game in turmoil from grassroots to the pro game, and the Welsh clubs/regions looking some way short of England and France, and significantly so to the SANZAR clubs, there's a niggling sense that Welsh rugby might never be as good as this for some time, if ever.

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Post by miaow on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 2:52 pm

lostinwales wrote:How much did the injuries across the tournament (and before) take out of Wales? Why does Biggar play so well in some games and is a passenger in others?

It did feel that both teams had a similar game plan and SA were just that little bit more powerful, but it really could have gone either way.

1. A lot
2. He's usually the same every game, it's just the game rewards or punishes his skillset. As referring back to #1, Wales won a Grand Slam and wininng rugby with Anscombe at 10 and Biggar off the bench, which was ideal. Injuries were crucial to Wales.

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Post by miaow on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 3:10 pm

tigertattie wrote:One of the SA forwards needs to clatter Tomos. Very ruck he tries to taunt them to come early

You sound like a second row?

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Post by miaow on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 3:12 pm

lostinwales wrote:Its like they didnt want to trust the backs without the penalty safety net.

The forwards were getting nowhere, just waiting for that penalty

This isn't as stupid a tactic as it seems. In games like this - and the game in general, now - how many points are scored, how many games won, as a result of turnover ball and counter attack?

Getting penalty advantage is more than just 'at least we get points'. It stops the threat of attack becoming defence becoming points conceded as well. I'm sure that is at the heart of this, even if it is fairly negative.

Scottrf wrote:20 odd phases was just waiting for a handling error or a turnover though. Worked out in the end.

As it proved. Few teams can survive that pressure for that long. The worry for Wales was they couldn't make 2-3 yards consecutively through a few phases such was the power imbalance between the sides. That was good control, I thought. For Welsh teams during most of Gatland's tenure, that would have resulted in f'ing it up somehow, for sure. The pick and go 22 game has improved massively the last 2 years - so credit McBryde for that.

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Post by Noble-Surfer on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 4:27 pm

Absolutely gutted. Thought the boys put everything into it, and did very little wrong- SA were just too powerful for us/ better at the power game than we were. Don't think there was much that we could have done differently- SA deserved to edge it on the day. Congrats.

Looking forward to England SA final, and really hope we manage to get up for it, and get the win over NZ- would be a fitting send off for Gats.

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Post by TightHEAD on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 4:42 pm

Trying to think what the ref did wrong?

Hard to ref a game of aerial ping pong.
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Post by maestegmafia on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 4:46 pm


Well done South Africa in an immense match you were hard fought victors

Good luck in the final

Let’s hope wales can do the first win over the all blacks in a very long time.

What a brilliant Rugby World cup

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Post by TightHEAD on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 4:48 pm

I'm worried it might be a cricket score, kiwis are angry.
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Post by miaow on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 4:50 pm

More important things in life to worry about I'd have thought TH.

Not least England, but thinks like personal happiness and success...

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Post by Old Man on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 5:25 pm

Commiserations to the Welsh supporters, wasn’t a great match by any standard, but it was close.

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Post by miaow on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 5:26 pm

Well done SA. How you feeling Old Man? Were you always confident of victory or livid the Boks kept making mistakes despite their power dominance?

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Post by Old Man on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 5:28 pm

Now Miaow, I expected us to lose, we aren’t playing great rugby, it has been a frustrating tournament for me.

Making the final wasn’t something I expected.

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Post by whatahitson on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 5:40 pm

Commiserations to Wales and good luck to South Africa in the final ~ but not too much luck I hope!

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 5:42 pm

Old Man wrote:Commiserations to the Welsh supporters, wasn’t a great match by any standard, but it was close.

That’s kinda how it goes between those two teams these days.

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Post by Old Man on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 5:45 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
Old Man wrote:Commiserations to the Welsh supporters, wasn’t a great match by any standard, but it was close.

That’s kinda how it goes between those two teams these days.

Yes, true

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Post by miaow on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 5:49 pm

Interesting - I think it proved there were two evenly matched (flawed?) teams out there today.

But mid game...did you not feel the Boks had Wales by the neck at times, only to...well...fumble it? If I was a SA'n I'd feel aggrieved SA seemed to fade.

And thoughts on the final?

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