Bronze - Match Thread - NEW ZEALAND v WALES - 1/11/19 - K/O 09:00 GMT

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Post by miaow on Thu 17 Oct 2019, 9:57 pm

First topic message reminder :

Again, making these early for the sake of ease and consistency.

NZ

Team:

1. Joe Moody (44)
2. Dane Coles (68)
3. Nepo Laulala (24)
4. Brodie Retallick (80)
5. Scott Barrett (35)
6. Shannon Frizell (8)
7. Sam Cane (67)
8. Kieran Read - captain (126)
9. Aaron Smith (91)
10. Richie Mo’unga (16)
11. Rieko Ioane (28)
12. Sonny Bill Williams (56)
13. Ryan Crotty (47)
14. Ben Smith (83)
15. Beauden Barrett (82)
16. Liam Coltman (7)
17. Atu Moli (7)
18. Angus Ta'avao (13)
19. Patrick Tuipulotu (29)
20. Matt Todd (24)
21. Brad Weber (4)
22. Anton Lienert-Brown (41)
23. Jordie Barrett (16)


WALES

Team:

1. Nicky Smith (Ospreys) (34 Caps)
2. Ken Owens (Scarlets) (72 Caps)
3. Dillon Lewis (Cardiff Blues) (21 Caps)
4. Adam Beard (Ospreys) (19 Caps)
5. Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys) (133 Caps) (CAPT)
6. Justin Tipuric (Ospreys) (71 Caps)
7. James Davies (Scarlets) (7 Caps)
8. Ross Moriarty (Dragons) (40 Caps)
9. Tomos Williams (Cardiff Blues) (15 Caps)
10. Rhys Patchell (Scarlets) (18 Caps)
11. Josh Adams (Cardiff Blues) (20 Caps)
12. Owen Watkin (Ospreys) (21 Caps)
13. Jonathan Davies (Scarlets) (80 Caps)
14. Owen Lane (Cardiff Blues) (1 Cap)
15. Hallam Amos (Cardiff Blues) (21 Caps)

Replacements:

16. Elliot Dee (Dragons) (27 Caps)
17. Rhys Carre (Saracens) (4 Caps)
18. Wyn Jones (Scarlets) (21 Caps)
19. Jake Ball (Scarlets) (41 Caps)
20. Aaron Shingler (Scarlets) (25 Caps)
21. Gareth Davies (Scarlets) (50 Caps)
22. Dan Biggar (Northampton Saints) (78 Caps)
23. Hadleigh Parkes (Scarlets) (24 Caps)

Injury update (Players not considered for selection):

Tomas Francis – Subluxation of left shoulder and will require ongoing assessment
George North – Hamstring injury
Aaron Wainwright – Hamstring injury
Leigh Halfpenny – Concussion​
Liam Williams - Ankle Surgery


Venue: Tokyo
Referee:
AR1:
AR2:
TMO:


Last edited by miaow on Sun 27 Oct 2019, 4:54 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Post by BamBam on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 7:10 am

NZ taking it seriously, other than Frizell that would have been the starting line up 6 months ago more or less.

Wales line up is a joke

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Post by Dirtydave on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 7:13 am

Looking at some of those NZ selections, I think it would've been pertinent to have selected some experienced cooler heads during the tournament. It's not often you see entire units of inexperienced players on show.

The likes of Crotty and Bens Smith were sorely missed in the backline in my opinion.

All easy to say now obviously, looking back.

This'll be a tough game for Wales, I don't really see them getting one over on NZ here, but it's a bit of uncharted territory, and NZ have lost a lot of games this season

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Post by RiscaGame on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 8:21 am

BamBam wrote:NZ taking it seriously, other than Frizell that would have been the starting line up 6 months ago more or less.

Wales line up is a joke

It looks a bit silly, before you see some of the explanations (i.e. players not fit). Francis, Wainwright, North and Halfpenny are all ruled out. The only questionable choices I can see, are probably Shingler and Ball not starting, as the back five looks a little too lightweight in carriers etc. Otherwise, Wyn Jones has to bench for the tighthead cover. Amos has to start, as there isn't any other fullback available (other than maybe moving Patchell there). There have been calls for Watkin and Patchell to start.

It's clear Wales are looking to attack here. I don't have high hopes (as changed Welsh teams don't always go so well), but I understand the majority of the changes.

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Post by maestegmafia on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 8:25 am

Wow there were a lot more injuries last Sunday than I thought. I understand Gatland stated no one else would be called up. Against a pretty top notch ABs team these boys are going to have to step it up a few gears.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 8:29 am

RiscaGame wrote:
BamBam wrote:NZ taking it seriously, other than Frizell that would have been the starting line up 6 months ago more or less.

Wales line up is a joke

It looks a bit silly, before you see some of the explanations (i.e. players not fit). Francis, Wainwright, North and Halfpenny are all ruled out. The only questionable choices I can see, are probably Shingler and Ball not starting, as the back five looks a little too lightweight in carriers etc. Otherwise, Wyn Jones has to bench for the tighthead cover. Amos has to start, as there isn't any other fullback available (other than maybe moving Patchell there). There have been calls for Watkin and Patchell to start.

It's clear Wales are looking to attack here. I don't have high hopes (as changed Welsh teams don't always go so well), but I understand the majority of the changes.

With a 31 man squad and 5 players ruled out through injury (and no time to fly in replacements) does not leave much room for selections.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 8:32 am

Slightly worried to see 1/2p down as concussion. Wonder when that happened?

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Post by RiscaGame on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 8:33 am

LondonTiger wrote:Slightly worried to see 1/2p down as concussion. Wonder when that happened?

Did mean to comment on that too. Very worrying indeed.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 8:58 am

This is definitely the most injuries we’ve had a for a while, and it’s just the beginning of the season for us. That’s some terrible luck.

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Post by BigGee on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 9:07 am

That SA game was brutal, hopefully some of them just need a bit of time to get over it.

A 5 day turnaround has not helped them at all in this case either.

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Post by The Oracle on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 9:28 am

I wonder if the injuries situation is due to us trying to play an attritional SA type game with players who are not big enough and powerful enough for it?  We seem to have a very similar game plan to SA (hence it was a bit of a snooze-fest) but, as demonstrated when we met them in the semi, we've not got the bulk to do it as well as they do.  I remember a number of occasions we were trying to crash it up and being manhandled and picked up and chucked about.  So playing that way with guys slightly too small for it....... well, it must be a contributory factor to injuries?


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Post by Gooseberry on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 9:30 am

miaow wrote:Also worth noting - this is the last game of the ABs' season.

For Wales, they've all got a nice, long, hard season with the regions coming up...no Lions...no RWC prep...just a really great 12 month season culminating with a 2 test tour to NZ.


How much of a break are the WRU giving the contracted players before returning to their regions? 

The England players will still be under their maximum games in a year thing but also hopefully will be given a proper break before returning to club play. 
Obviously the England players have had the advantage of a weeks break during the cup which as we know is the sole reason they have made the final rather than being in the joint third place match. 
The international window usually operates till the third weekend in novemeber, but the HC fixtures start on the 15th this year so the big clubs/regions/provinces (except Leicester) will want their players back for that with just one weekend break. Theres a promised break for the world cup squad and what amounts to a B team tour over the summer for England, are Wales doing something similar?

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Post by RiscaGame on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 9:42 am

Wales have a friendly v Barbarians, at the end of November Rolling Eyes Obviously it's new management, so I don't know what kind of squad it will be, but it seems unnecessary now, given the amount of injuries the pro teams have to contend with already and the fact that these players have been non stop for ages now.

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Post by Gooseberry on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 9:49 am

RiscaGame wrote:Wales have a friendly v Barbarians, at the end of November Rolling Eyes Obviously it's new management, so I don't know what kind of squad it will be, but it seems unnecessary now, given the amount of injuries the pro teams have to contend with already and the fact that these players have been non stop for ages now.

Crumbs really? A full cap game? I know they need to recoup some of the money lost by Howley at the bookies but they should be making massive savings on Pivacs contract vs Gatlands. Sad that its come to that. 

Im sure the RFU wont be doing anything daft like that and instead will have their players parading around in sponsored shirts at various corporate/media junkets for the next 6 months instead  Rolling Eyes

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Post by Afro on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 10:04 am

I'm guessing we might see McNicholl and Halaholo in that Barbarians game?
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Post by The Oracle on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 10:21 am

Interestingly the coach of the Barbarians for that game will be a certain Mr W Gatland. Hmmmm, could be interesting.
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Post by Afro on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 10:24 am

The Oracle wrote:Interestingly the coach of the Barbarians for that game will be a certain Mr W Gatland. Hmmmm, could be interesting.

My guess was that it was a chance to give him a send off at the Principality
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Post by Duty281 on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 10:26 am

Fear for Wales in this game. They've had a pretty average tournament in terms of performance, now they're coming up against an angry All Blacks side, whilst contending with lots of injuries and a short-ish turnaround after a brutal game against the Saffers.

Could be a big score.

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Post by The Oracle on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 10:28 am

Afro wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Interestingly the coach of the Barbarians for that game will be a certain Mr W Gatland. Hmmmm, could be interesting.

My guess was that it was a chance to give him a send off at the Principality

Yes you could be right. Hadn’t thought of that.

Who will Gats be able to pick? I bet he’d like to go for a load of B&I players who he thinks would be good for the Lions in 2 years but no clubs are going to want to release World Cup players. Is it even in an international window?
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Post by Afro on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 10:32 am

It'll be a party atmosphere. Thinking of going myself as a chance for a bit of Xmas shopping with the missus, a bit of rugby and then some food and drink afterwards. Tickets are cheap too. Think it was £30 for Adult and a tenner for kids
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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 10:48 am

The Oracle wrote:
Afro wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Interestingly the coach of the Barbarians for that game will be a certain Mr W Gatland. Hmmmm, could be interesting.

My guess was that it was a chance to give him a send off at the Principality

Yes you could be right. Hadn’t thought of that.

Who will Gats be able to pick? I bet he’d like to go for a load of B&I players who he thinks would be good for the Lions in 2 years but no clubs are going to want to release World Cup players. Is it even in an international window?

Nope, not an international window. Barbarians will probably be full of SH players retiring from international rugby.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 11:12 am

I didn’t see Halfpenny get concussion against SA? That could be 6 months off at least.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 11:13 am

Wonder if the Welsh starting pack is meant to hold out, and the replacements are meant to rough them up? Good luck with that I say.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 11:23 am

mikey_dragon wrote:I didn’t see Halfpenny get concussion against SA? That could be 6 months off at least.

He stayed on until the end, and I believe Wales did not have contact sessions on Monday and Tuesday, so it is worrying for him dependent on how it happened.

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Post by SecretFly on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 11:30 am

Delayed symptoms? Headaches?

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Post by Gooseberry on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 11:35 am

Tbf there seems to be more interest in that barbs fixture than there does in this joint 3rd playoff.

It does look like the mounting injuries will rob us of a spectacle and chance for Wales in this one. If England are already feeling they have one hand on the cup the NZ do seem to have one and a half on the bronze.

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Post by RiscaGame on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 11:37 am

Afro wrote:I'm guessing we might see McNicholl and Halaholo in that Barbarians game?

That'll definitely happen, which is fine.

From a selfish POV, it would be nice for Dragons to not lose more players. We have a very winnable fixture against Zebre that day, so hopefully the likes of Ollie Griffiths and Leon Brown don't get used Wink

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Post by RiscaGame on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 11:38 am

The trouble is, they can't really market the game as a farewell to Gatland, as that was what the Ireland home game was marketed as.

I am excited to see a Gatland coached side play Barbarians style rugby mind.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 11:40 am

mikey_dragon wrote:I didn’t see Halfpenny get concussion against SA? That could be 6 months off at least.

Depending on how it happened that may be career threatening, he was out for a long time earlier in the year wasn't he?

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Post by Afro on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 11:42 am

RiscaGame wrote:
Afro wrote:I'm guessing we might see McNicholl and Halaholo in that Barbarians game?

That'll definitely happen, which is fine.

From a selfish POV, it would be nice for Dragons to not lose more players. We have a very winnable fixture against Zebre that day, so hopefully the likes of Ollie Griffiths and Leon Brown don't get used Wink

Halaholo's becoming eligible might come at the perfect time. McNicholl is an exciting option, but the shortage of centres at the WC and the fact we were talking about North moving inside means Halaholo is probably needed more
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Post by TightHEAD on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 11:43 am

mikey_dragon wrote:I didn’t see Halfpenny get concussion against SA? That could be 6 months off at least.

You don't need a big bang especially if you have had multiple concussions, I was shot down by many posters and mods for suggesting North could have been knocked out whilst scoring a try, yes he wasn't hit in the head but your brain still moves inside the skull, hitting the ground hard could be enough!

Hope 1/2p is ok and recovers well.
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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 12:06 pm

TightHEAD wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:I didn’t see Halfpenny get concussion against SA? That could be 6 months off at least.

You don't need a big bang especially if you have had multiple concussions, I was shot down by many posters and mods for suggesting North could have been knocked out whilst scoring a try, yes he wasn't hit in the head but your brain still moves inside the skull, hitting the ground hard could be enough!

Hope 1/2p is ok and recovers well.

I suggested you were wrong about him being knocked out as he moved immediately as the bloke got off him.

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Post by lostinwales on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 12:11 pm

I have read that Savea has a knee injury hence not being selected.

Worrying about 1/2p.

Could be brutal. Hell of a chance for Lane I guess but I can't see where any magic might come from that will turn the black tide

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Post by TightHEAD on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 12:31 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:I didn’t see Halfpenny get concussion against SA? That could be 6 months off at least.

You don't need a big bang especially if you have had multiple concussions, I was shot down by many posters and mods for suggesting North could have been knocked out whilst scoring a try, yes he wasn't hit in the head but your brain still moves inside the skull, hitting the ground hard could be enough!

Hope 1/2p is ok and recovers well.

I suggested you were wrong about him being knocked out as he moved immediately as the bloke got off him.

There was a delay, watch again without the hatred/bitterness of others opinions ringing in you ears.
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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 12:34 pm

I am not going through this argument again. We watch the same footage and disagree with what we are seeing.

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Post by TightHEAD on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 12:41 pm

I'm not the one arguing!

Just pointing out/educating others that you don't need a hard knock or be KO on the ground to get a concussion.
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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 12:44 pm

TightHEAD wrote:I'm not the one arguing!

Just pointing out/educating others that you don't need a hard knock or be KO on the ground to get a concussion.

And no-one said you did need it.

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Post by TightHEAD on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 12:47 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:I didn’t see Halfpenny get concussion against SA?

I think they did Tiger!!!!!!
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Post by Soul Requiem on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 12:50 pm

TightHEAD wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:I didn’t see Halfpenny get concussion against SA?

I think they did Tiger!!!!!!

Boring!!!

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Post by TightHEAD on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 12:51 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:I didn’t see Halfpenny get concussion against SA?

I think they did Tiger!!!!!!

Boring!!!

Most teenagers find education boring! Whistle
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Post by miaow on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 1:25 pm

Interesting teams, NZ clearly want to win this with the team they've picked.

Could be a repeat of 2003...?

Hal Amos is in for a rough night I feel. Likewise Watkin and possible Lane, too.

Interesting to see how James Davies goes.

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Post by miaow on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 1:32 pm

Afro wrote:I'm guessing we might see McNicholl and Halaholo in that Barbarians game?

Both are 29 years old. I assumed Haloholo was mid 20s. I'd say capping them might be a mistake, but we could do with Johnny Mac's quality. Haloholo? Not sure. Dearth of quality at centre, but Scott Williams is the same age, Welsh, over 50 caps, and better. If we want to retire Parkes - which I can't see hapenning, I think he'll last until the summer of the Lions tour - then that's the next centre in line.

But you might be right.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 5:33 pm

Afro wrote:
RiscaGame wrote:
Afro wrote:I'm guessing we might see McNicholl and Halaholo in that Barbarians game?

That'll definitely happen, which is fine.

From a selfish POV, it would be nice for Dragons to not lose more players. We have a very winnable fixture against Zebre that day, so hopefully the likes of Ollie Griffiths and Leon Brown don't get used Wink

Halaholo's becoming eligible might come at the perfect time. McNicholl is an exciting option, but the shortage of centres at the WC and the fact we were talking about North moving inside means Halaholo is probably needed more

I'm not sure if the Baa-baa's game is a capped one, I think we have to request it. I think Halaholo and McNicholl are both in line to get capped. Both are quality players and have stated their intention is to play for Wales. I think Parkes is already on his way out of the international scene and I would be surprised if he's kept on for longer than another season, but Pivac likes him so why not.

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Post by The Oracle on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 5:42 pm

It would be great to have a ‘jinking’, creative centre for Wales. Gives us so many more options. We’ve been employing a pretty blunt centre partnership for years and years now. Roberts, JD2, Parkes, Scott Williams, etc. Not a huge amount of creativity there, but maybe that’s just due to the Gatland-enforced structure and style? Not sure they’d be much different under a different coach though.

All depends on the type of game that Pivac and Jones want to play. But if the Scarlets play in previous years is anything to go by then I think someone like Halaholo could be a great addition.
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Post by mikey_dragon on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 6:00 pm

Halaholo is a creative centre, and very solid in the contact area.

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Post by miaow on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 6:00 pm

Harri Millard's the only jinking centre in Wales I can think of.

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Post by The Oracle on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 6:13 pm

Haloholo is a jinking centre for me. Or at least for me he’s not a crash ball, just run a straight line kinda centre. Creative, jinking, non-linear.... whatever you want to call it. He has the potential to be something we do not have in the Wales set up currently. He can unlock defences.
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Post by miaow on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 6:21 pm

No that's fair Oracle. But Haloholo's not really Welsh and I think we need to be serious about starting the next 4 years with young Welsh players.

I think there's a case to be made for playing JD2 at 12, just to mix things up as much as anything. Try things out. He's a very good defensive 13 but we have a dearth of 12s. Good to have that option of him filling in there.

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Post by miaow on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 6:22 pm

Also, great opportunity this game for Patchell, Lane etc.

They might get smashed, but last time Patchell and Amos played they looked out of their depth v NZ. In pace and strength first of all, and ofc skills follow that.

This is a great test to see where those kind of players are.

Expect a big game from Tomos Williams.

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Post by The Oracle on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 6:40 pm

Nothing to lose in this game. Should the players abandon the play book and chuck it about?! Would be nice to see! I don’t mean 7s style and ridiculous stuff. But a bit more off the cuff and less scripted would be good. The glacial speed that we seem to approach phases, rucks and setting up the scrum half box kick. Well, it’s not fun to watch! So throwing it about might make a refreshing change. Appreciate you have to earn the right to throw it about too mind. But if we’re going to get humped by an angry NZ we may as well do it in style!
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Post by mikey_dragon on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 9:22 pm

The Oracle wrote:Nothing to lose in this game. Should the players abandon the play book and chuck it about?! Would be nice to see! I don’t mean 7s style and ridiculous stuff. But a bit more off the cuff and less scripted would be good. The glacial speed that we seem to approach phases, rucks and setting up the scrum half box kick. Well, it’s not fun to watch! So throwing it about might make a refreshing change. Appreciate you have to earn the right to throw it about too mind. But if we’re going to get humped by an angry NZ we may as well do it in style!

I don't know, I think Gatland better call miaow and check if it's alright first?

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