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Post by majesticimperialman on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 12:20 pm

I was going to post this thread before the Wales v France game.

Dare i Dream of an all NH final in this Rugby World Cup?

After watching the Wales v France game, i very much doubt it.

Your thoughts.

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Post by Galted on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 12:28 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:I was going to post this thread before the Wales v France game.

Dare i Dream of an all NH final in this Rugby World Cup?

After watching the Wales v France game, i very much doubt it.

Your thoughts.


After watching the first half of Japan v SA... maybe.
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Post by LondonTiger on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 12:40 pm

Unlikely unless we see some massive shifts in tectonic plates.

Should SA come through this then Wales will fancy their chances.

Just cannot see past NZ in other semi. Last year the tough game at Twickenham beat NZ up enough to help Ireland the following week. We did not see Ireland return the favour last week.

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Post by RiscaGame on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 12:44 pm

Yep, Wales playing poorly and winning. They have no chance of beating a side that they’ve won the last four or so against. I’ll have a word with Gats and tell him not to bother going next week, because Madge (the one who said we would lose by 12 this week) thinks we have no chance.

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Post by majesticimperialman on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 12:50 pm

RiscaGame wrote:Yep, Wales playing poorly and winning. They have no chance of beating a side that they’ve won the last four or so against. I’ll have a word with Gats and tell him not to bother going next week, because Madge (the one who said we would lose by 12 this week) thinks we have no chance.
Good idea Riscagame.

Save Gats embarrassment. thumbsup

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Post by Old Man on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 1:35 pm

I don’t think SA or Wales can fancy their chances much against each other.

Wales struggled to put away a 14 man French team and SA struggled to gain control of the ball.

This match is more a coin spin than any thing else.

At this point the team that actually find a solid play to score tries will win.

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Post by The Oracle on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 2:07 pm

SA looking much better than Wales for me at the moment. I’ve been really disappointed with Wales. We’re really struggling to create much against the better sides, apart from the first 20 mins or so vs Oz. Everything else has been stuttering, slow (glacial as someone else put it!), error strewn, ponderous, etc. Even against 14 men today we had no urgency to get those points. I don’t feel it was us being patient either. We just had no ‘oomph’!

I do appreciate that Wales’ style of rugby is more towards the attritional but I think in a war of attrition against SA on current form we will come off 2nd best, regardless of our decent record against them lately.
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Post by LondonTiger on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 2:25 pm

Oracle,

It could be argued that Wales rise to the top of the World rankings was built on defence, fitness and resilience. Attacking play was very much an afterthought (lowest tries for by any side to win 6Ns as an example).

But despite what some may say there is more than one way to play the game, and Gats and Edwards have worked wonders.

You are correct to suggest there is a lack of oomph at times and the team continue to look a little heavy legged. While understandable in the warm ups, less so in the tournament proper. Also perhaps a few similarities with Ireland in that just maybe some of the players look as if they are at the very end of their career.

Yet I fully expect Wales to make the final, but find NZ to be unforgiving.

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Post by Shifty on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 3:29 pm

Well you can't say Wales have peaked!
We've sneaked wins against Australia and France and are still in it.  We beat South Africa in the last 4 games and their no world beaters themselves, personally I think Wales believe in themselves, know how to win tight games, and can win pretty or ugly.  

It was only the World Cup warm u games that took us off our record winning streak, while when we went back into competitive rugby we picked up where we left off and carried on winning.

I'm surpised that people are so quick to write Wales off on the basis of of battling win against France.    As well as the fact that since June 2018 Wales beat South Africa and Argentina on tour, completed an unbeaten November series including wins over South Africa and Australia, won a grand slam, including a 25-5 win over Ireland, and have now beaten Australia and France in the World Cup.
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Post by Old Man on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 4:27 pm

South Africa had a mediocre win rate in 2018, only won 7/14, however 4 of those matches were less than score.

In 2019 they have only lost 1/10 , so they are improving every match.

They do need to play more with ball in hand though, that is their one shortcoming against teams like England and New Zealand who have been scoring lots of tries.

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Post by LondonTiger on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 4:29 pm

Who is writing Wales off, shifty?

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Post by Shifty on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 4:42 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Who is writing Wales off, shifty?

I think a lot of people seem to be, reading the comments in the Youtube World Rugby highlights between Wales and France, or the BBC website you'd think many think the Wales and South Africa game is a complete forgone conclusion.

Personally I think South Africe have a slight edge on Wales, but not as much some people seem to think. Certainly Wales should not be worried about the opposition.
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Post by Old Man on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 4:44 pm

I would suggests Wales have as much to worry about as South Africa.

No matter who wins, it is going to be a slugfest.

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Post by lostinwales on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 4:48 pm

Wales are unquestionably very strong in tight games but that is at least because they are almost always tight. They look very hard to beat but they are not scoring tries, and at some point this is going to catch up with them.

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Post by RiscaGame on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 7:26 pm

You could argue that at some point it’s going to click for Wales too though. Missing a high number of tackles in games, which might tighten up. Not really had more than 40 minutes worth of good performance in their three big games. They are really due a performance.

Probably won’t be favourites next week either, so slightly less pressure. Know that they have two more games under Gatland too, whereas losing today would’ve brought his tenure to a sad end. Sort of less pressure again. Back under the radar, just the way we like it Wink

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Post by miaow on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 11:32 pm

I'd say Wales and England are probably about as likely to get to the final as each other - in fact, you could argue Wales are more likely. It's really hard to say.

Either way, they're both underdogs, and you'd think the most likely situation is a SH v SH final, followed by SH v NH, and then finally NH v NH.

Not sure why it would be a 'dream', maj? Other than fancying your chances against a fairly battered and beaten Wales a bit more than the Boks?

Going to be a long week, I feel...!

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Post by Taylorman on Mon 21 Oct 2019, 2:24 am

Old Man wrote:South Africa had a mediocre win rate in 2018, only won 7/14, however 4 of those matches were less than score.

In 2019 they have only lost 1/10 , so they are improving every match.

They do need to play more with ball in hand though, that is their one shortcoming against teams like England and New Zealand who have been scoring lots of tries.

7/14 in 2018 then 9/10 in 2019? In a World cup year?...that IS surprising... thumbsup


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Post by maestegmafia on Mon 21 Oct 2019, 8:34 am

miaow wrote:I'd say Wales and England are probably about as likely to get to the final as each other - in fact, you could argue Wales are more likely. It's really hard to say.

Either way, they're both underdogs, and you'd think the most likely situation is a SH v SH final, followed by SH v NH, and then finally NH v NH.

Not sure why it would be a 'dream', maj? Other than fancying your chances against a fairly battered and beaten Wales a bit more than the Boks?

Going to be a long week, I feel...!

I concur...

Must say I thought the Boks looked error ridden, even more so than Wales, who won putting in a worse performance than against Uruguay. It will be a close game where Wales just edge it with their uncanny ability to apply pressure in defence or attack until the cracks appear.

England vs ABs were close last year, but I think both teams have progressed in the last 11 months. Man for man the ABs edge it on paper. On the pitch it’s going to be a fantastic game, the All Blacks are mentally stronger than England and that will win it.


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Post by BigTrevsbigmac on Mon 21 Oct 2019, 8:44 am

miaow wrote:I'd say Wales and England are probably about as likely to get to the final as each other - in fact, you could argue Wales are more likely. It's really hard to say.

Either way, they're both underdogs, and you'd think the most likely situation is a SH v SH final, followed by SH v NH, and then finally NH v NH.

Not sure why it would be a 'dream', maj? Other than fancying your chances against a fairly battered and beaten Wales a bit more than the Boks?

Going to be a long week, I feel...!

Both NZ & SA are 2/5 odds to win their respective games.
Wales odds unsurprisingly have slipped following their quarter final performance.

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Post by Taylorman on Mon 21 Oct 2019, 8:46 am

yeah the final could be any combination of the four teams, though based on the quarters alone, I see the winner coming from the NZ England match, not just because of the way they played out but because the overall standard was higher.

Wales struggled to put France away, full stop. The card when behind, as over the top dumb as it was, and possibly the try, which looked narrowly forward, were each key single events, but together, compelling.

They won’t be able to rely on that against any of the remaining three sides.

SA took a while to overcome Japan, and only then started the scoring. Suggests they need to get on top of their opposites before they can start running the points up.

That makes the SA Wales an interesting, likely close, affair.

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Post by maestegmafia on Mon 21 Oct 2019, 8:50 am

Taylorman wrote:
Wales struggled to put France away, full stop. The card when behind, as  over the top dumb as it was, and possibly the try, which looked narrowly forward, were each key single events, but  together,  compelling.

They won’t be able to rely on that against any of the remaining three sides.

Do you not think France could have scored those three tries against England or New Zealand? Of course they could. Sometimes games don’t go your way, so you muscle through it, the good teams still win.

No different to the ABs at Twickenham last November.

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Post by Afro on Mon 21 Oct 2019, 9:27 am

What came out of the weekend for me was that Wales were missing a lot of first time tackles, which hopefully is just a blip, and they need to get back to the strong defence that has brought them success. Maybe missing JD2 was a big part of that, whilst Navidi seemed to miss a few - could have been due to the injury that he went off with.

The bookies are normally a good gauge for where the land lies. It is only odds and no result would surprise me, but they have NZ 4/11 v Eng 5/2, and SA 4/9 v Wales 2/1, so they think it is more likely an all SH final
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Post by Afro on Mon 21 Oct 2019, 9:30 am

miaow wrote:

Not sure why it would be a 'dream', maj?


Not a dream for the mods on here!
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Post by tigertattie on Mon 21 Oct 2019, 10:24 am

Afro wrote:
miaow wrote:

Not sure why it would be a 'dream', maj?


Not a dream for the mods on here!

Yeah if I were a Mod and the final was England vs Wales, I'd jsut turn the forum off for the rest of the season!
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Post by maestegmafia on Mon 21 Oct 2019, 10:27 am

There is no reason why it couldn’t be civilised rugby debate, let’s hope maturity prevails on all sides

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Post by BamBam on Mon 21 Oct 2019, 10:28 am

maestegmafia wrote:There is no reason why it couldn’t be civilised rugby debate, let’s hope maturity prevails on all sides

Including from moderators with a habit of handing out unnecessary bans to English posters I hope Hug

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Post by Afro on Mon 21 Oct 2019, 10:37 am

I can think of many reasons why it wouldn't be civilised, but agree none why it couldn't.

Cards on the table, both sets of posters are as bad as the other and seem to read posts with a preconception that it will a WUM, and then it becomes a self-fulfilling preconception. If both sides can drop that preconception and approach any match with respect for the other side we'll be fine.

But that's getting well ahead of ourselves!! At least in a NZ-SA final we will probably all be on the same page
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Post by miaow on Mon 21 Oct 2019, 4:29 pm

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
miaow wrote:I'd say Wales and England are probably about as likely to get to the final as each other - in fact, you could argue Wales are more likely. It's really hard to say.

Either way, they're both underdogs, and you'd think the most likely situation is a SH v SH final, followed by SH v NH, and then finally NH v NH.

Not sure why it would be a 'dream', maj? Other than fancying your chances against a fairly battered and beaten Wales a bit more than the Boks?

Going to be a long week, I feel...!

Both NZ & SA are 2/5 odds to win their respective games.
Wales odds unsurprisingly have slipped following their quarter final performance.

Yeah, that seems consistent with what I said...

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Post by miaow on Mon 21 Oct 2019, 4:29 pm

Taylorman wrote:
They won’t be able to rely on that against any of the remaining three sides.

Why not?

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Post by Pie on Mon 21 Oct 2019, 6:16 pm

Dream? Nah........ but a nightmare is a safe bet on Saturday thumbsup

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 21 Oct 2019, 8:50 pm

Afro wrote:I can think of many reasons why it wouldn't be civilised, but agree none why it couldn't.

Cards on the table, both sets of posters are as bad as the other and seem to read posts with a preconception that it will a WUM, and then it becomes a self-fulfilling preconception. If both sides can drop that preconception and approach any match with respect for the other side we'll be fine.

But that's getting well ahead of ourselves!! At least in a NZ-SA final we will probably all be on the same page

NZ-SA final is the worst option, as it means we have England v Wales for the meaningless Bronze Medal.

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Post by Afro on Mon 21 Oct 2019, 8:54 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Afro wrote:I can think of many reasons why it wouldn't be civilised, but agree none why it couldn't.

Cards on the table, both sets of posters are as bad as the other and seem to read posts with a preconception that it will a WUM, and then it becomes a self-fulfilling preconception. If both sides can drop that preconception and approach any match with respect for the other side we'll be fine.

But that's getting well ahead of ourselves!! At least in a NZ-SA final we will probably all be on the same page

NZ-SA final is the worst option, as it means we have England v Wales for the meaningless Bronze Medal.

Oh yeah, didn’t think of that. For those that win, they will happily take the bragging rights. For those that lose, it will be completely meaningless.
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Post by The Oracle on Mon 21 Oct 2019, 9:07 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Afro wrote:I can think of many reasons why it wouldn't be civilised, but agree none why it couldn't.

Cards on the table, both sets of posters are as bad as the other and seem to read posts with a preconception that it will a WUM, and then it becomes a self-fulfilling preconception. If both sides can drop that preconception and approach any match with respect for the other side we'll be fine.

But that's getting well ahead of ourselves!! At least in a NZ-SA final we will probably all be on the same page

NZ-SA final is the worst option, as it means we have England v Wales for the meaningless Bronze Medal.

Can you imagine the bragging rights on here though! The winner of any meeting between England and Wales in this WC (bronze medal or final) will be dining off it for years!
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Post by Mr Bounce on Mon 21 Oct 2019, 9:09 pm

If it is a Wales-England final, I wonder how many players will be fit on either side??

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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 21 Oct 2019, 9:17 pm

Oracle the welsh were dining off their moral victory for a decade in the one they lost. Bizarrely they seem to have largely forgotten they won the last one and are busy begging for crumbs of comfort from scrapping past france.

It would be a big fixture, and theres a roughly 5050 chance it will happen, be that final or bronze. The 3/4 playoff is definitely devalued.


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Post by The Oracle on Mon 21 Oct 2019, 9:28 pm

Gooseberry wrote:Oracle the welsh were dining off their moral victory for a decade in the one they lost. Bizarrely they seem to have largely forgotten they won the last one and are busy begging for crumbs of comfort from scrapping past france.

It would be a big fixture, and theres a roughly 5050 chance it will happen, be that final or bronze.  The 3/4 playoff is definitely devalued.


Begging for crumbs of comfort?! Go back and read the match thread! Most of us we embarrassed with the performance and embarrassed to go through. I saw none of us that thought we were the better team. Not sure what crumbs we’re begging for Headscratch
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Post by Taylorman on Tue 22 Oct 2019, 12:08 am

Best 3/4 match I saw was the first one, Wales beating Oz in the last second at Rotorua in 87. Thorburn kicked a sideline conversion to win I think something like 32/31.

For oz the French semi loss and 3/4 match finishes was about all they could take that year, both finishing in late left corner freaky tries.

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Post by majesticimperialman on Sat 26 Oct 2019, 11:46 am

Looks like it could be a NH final in this Rugby World Cup.

It is up to Wales now, too make this dream come true.

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