RWC final 19 - England v SA Match Thread - 02-11-2019 - Kick Off 09:00am

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Post by miaow on Thu 17 Oct 2019, 9:58 pm

First topic message reminder :

The big one. The Rugby World Cup Final.

ENGLAND

Elliot Daly; Anthony Watson, Manu Tuilagi, Owen Farrell, Jonny May, George Ford, Ben Youngs; Mako Vunipola, Jamie George, Kyle Sinckler, Maro Itoje, Courtney Lawes, Tom Curry, Sam Underhill, Billy Vunipola

Replacements: Luke Cowan-Dickie, Joe Marler, Dan Cole, George Kruis, Mark Wilson, Ben Spencer, Henry Slade, Jonathan Joseph

SOUTH AFRICA

Le Roux; Kolbe, Am, De Allende, Mapimpi; Pollard, De Klerk; Mtawarira, Mbonambi, Malherbe, Etzebeth, De Jager, Kolisi (capt), Du Toit, Vermeulen.

Replacements: Marx, Kitschoff, Koch, Snyman, Mostert, Louw, H Jantjies, Steyn

Venue: International Stadium, Yokohama
Referee: Jerome Garces
AR1: Romain Poite
AR2: Ben O'Keefe
TMO: Ben Skeen

Head to Head

42 Played 42
15 Won 25
25 Lost 15
2 Drawn 2

Recent Form

16 June 2012
Ellis Park, Johannesburg
36 – 27 to South Africa

23 June 2012
Nelson Mandela Bay Stadium,
Port Elizabeth
14 – 14 draw

24 November 2012
Twickenham, London
15 – 16 to South Africa

15 November 2014
Twickenham, London
28 – 31 to South Africa

12 November 2016
Twickenham, London
37 – 21 to England

9 June 2018
Ellis Park, Johannesburg
42 – 39 to South Africa

16 June 2018
Free State Stadium, Bloemfontein
23 – 12 to South Africa

23 June 2018
Newlands, Cape Town
10 – 25 to England

3 November 2018
Twickenham, London
12 – 11 to England


Last edited by miaow on Thu 31 Oct 2019, 1:20 pm; edited 4 times in total

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Post by Duty281 on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 8:28 am

Oh great, Ben Skeen as TMO. He was the one in the England/Australia game who couldn’t identify a clear forward pass.

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Post by Rinsure on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 8:33 am

Duty281 wrote:Oh great, Ben Skeen as TMO. He was the one in the England/Australia game who couldn’t identify a clear forward pass.

Only impartial TMO available, since it's Eng and SA in the final, from what I've read. He was bad in the pool games, but I think he's quietened down a bit since.


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Post by propdavid_london on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 8:33 am

Garces is the Final ref!
Clearly the poorer of the 2 referees last weekend.


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Post by propdavid_london on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 8:34 am

Garces is the Final ref!
Clearly the poorer of the 2 referees last weekend.

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Post by RiscaGame on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 8:46 am

Duty281 wrote:Oh great, Ben Skeen as TMO. He was the one in the England/Australia game who couldn’t identify a clear forward pass.

It's not as if Garces was great at spotting them on the weekend either, so it will be the blind leading the blind.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 8:48 am

Poorfour wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I find this an odd selection of official. Feels like a it's your turn pick.

He's the best available candidate. Barnes would have done it if England hadn't made the final (and it's a shame that a ref of his quality never got to do the Final), and Nige has already done it and it seems like they don't like to give it to anyone more than once. Garces is the highest rated of the refs that aren't those two.

Not sure if Owens has pulled ahead of Garces in the rankings, but it should be pointed out that the frenchman consistently gets high marks, post match, from the referee appraiser.

Now personally I am not a huge fan of him, but whenever I look back at his performances dispassionately he does meet the criteria set in the appraisal documents. Like many refs he is often making a correct call - but could easily have made a different one as there are often multiple offences.

The one area that refs have to score highly on to get top games is "Applies decisions consistently with no bias". He is scored as strong in this area.

Sadly for Owens there are no marks for "Top Bants"

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Post by SecretFly on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 9:03 am

Seems there is a trusted collective of three with WR....one of them retiring after this WC?  Another one must be close to the same decision.

Is this the best WR can do?  In their rush to prove distrust of all other refs, they'd even sanction Barnes for the final if Garces came down with flu.

I think it's more a organisational problem for WR, and their propensity to give in to social media assaults, than genuine issues with so many alternative refs.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 9:09 am

Allain Rolland is trying to install proper assessment, training and support. Too often this is then messed with by the main board who behave like fans and criticise refs on social media from an often one eyed view.

What also does not help is some coaches/Unions leaking the ref review they get every match whenever there are incorrect decisions listed.

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Post by Afro on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 9:12 am

majesticimperialman wrote:
BamBam wrote:Referee: Miaow
Assistants: Guns, mikey
TMO: Taylorman
Laugh
England being forced to play the cancelled game v France immediately prior to kick off in order to make I fair on everyone else
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Post by BamBam on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 9:15 am

I guess they view the 4 QF refs as their options for the showpiece games. With Peyper finding himself social media famous he was probably ruled out even before SA got to the final, so left Owens / Garces as options

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Post by king_carlos on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 9:18 am

I've said it many times but the rapid increase in whining about refs from fans, coaches and players has played a direct role in the lower standards we now see. It's a simple equation:

1. Standards at the top are poor because grassroots standards are abysmal.
2. Grassroot standards are abysmal because there is a critical ref shortage crippling many leagues.
3. There is a ref shortage because why would anyone want to do? Give up your Saturday afternoon to get one eyed abuse from players/coaches/parents/fans who often have nothing but a vague understanding of the law book.

I've reffed for a fair few years and you see the issues on a weekly basis. The second a half decent young ref with a level 2 qualification has reffed a couple of reserve league games without incident they get fast tracked up the system without necessary experience. Beggars can't be choosers basically.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 9:25 am

king_carlos wrote:I've said it many times but the rapid increase in whining about refs from fans, coaches and players has played a direct role in the lower standards we now see. It's a simple equation:

1. Standards at the top are poor because grassroots standards are abysmal.
2. Grassroot standards are abysmal because there is a critical ref shortage crippling many leagues.
3. There is a ref shortage because why would anyone want to do? Give up your Saturday afternoon to get one eyed abuse from players/coaches/parents/fans who often have nothing but a vague understanding of the law book.

I've reffed for a fair few years and you see the issues on a weekly basis. The second a half decent young ref with a level 2 qualification has reffed a couple of reserve league games without incident they get fast tracked up the system without necessary experience. Beggars can't be choosers basically.

That last bit was always a risk, though there were more refs around and some Societies would be able to provide refs down to 3rd teams even. (My first ever official match was a 3rd team with ex international ref Roger Quittenton doing the first team, two seasons later I had the reverse situation!!!). Back then clubs were grateful for refs who could keep up with play and knew the laws. However even then I started to notice ref abuse creeping into the game.


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Post by TightHEAD on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 9:38 am

Duty281 wrote:Oh great, Ben Skeen as TMO. He was the one in the England/Australia game who couldn’t identify a clear forward pass.

I hope you're joking, he won't give us anything, It will be like 2007 all over again!
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Post by king_carlos on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 9:43 am

LondonTiger wrote:
king_carlos wrote:I've said it many times but the rapid increase in whining about refs from fans, coaches and players has played a direct role in the lower standards we now see. It's a simple equation:

1. Standards at the top are poor because grassroots standards are abysmal.
2. Grassroot standards are abysmal because there is a critical ref shortage crippling many leagues.
3. There is a ref shortage because why would anyone want to do? Give up your Saturday afternoon to get one eyed abuse from players/coaches/parents/fans who often have nothing but a vague understanding of the law book.

I've reffed for a fair few years and you see the issues on a weekly basis. The second a half decent young ref with a level 2 qualification has reffed a couple of reserve league games without incident they get fast tracked up the system without necessary experience. Beggars can't be choosers basically.

That last bit was always a risk, though there were more refs around and some Societies would be able to provide refs down to 3rd teams even. (My first ever official match was a 3rd team with ex international ref Roger Quittenton doing the first team, two seasons later I had the reverse situation!!!). Back then clubs were grateful for refs who could keep up with play and knew the laws. However even then I started to notice ref abuse creeping into the game.

Similar story for myself there, LT. When I first started reffing with the SRU after blowing my knee out you would occasionally see guys such as Jim Fleming reffing a reserve east 2 league game to get some running into his legs. It was just a fun way to stay involved.

The level of flack coming from the touchline and eventually players has removed much of that fun though sadly.

Go to watch any premiership game now and some of the most regular cries you hear from the stands are "SIR?!" or "REF?!".

It's been especially noticeable at Welford Road over the last few seasons. As my uncle very correctly observed during the Sarries game, "a lot of fans are far less happy with reffing standards now that we are ****". Almost like complaining about referees is most commonly a simple means to ignore your teams glaring shortcomings isn't it...

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Post by TightHEAD on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 10:11 am

The standard in the lower leagues are a joke only last week I watched a National league game the ball was kicked out around the defending teams own 22m line the touch judge ran up to within 2m of the half way line.

The clue was the three ladies who just had their beer splashed all over them by the ball stood on the 22m line!

The Ref wasn't much better, gave about 15 warnings to the captains before pulling out a yellow!
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Post by Poorfour on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 10:53 am

I've only ever reffed at youth levels, but I've found that the standard of respect for the ref is pretty high.

My daughter had to switch clubs this season to continue playing, because we don't have enough girls her age to sustain a youth team. I was quite gratified when I delivered her to her new team that a random parent coach walked up to me and declared "I know you, you're the good ref from [old club]".

I don't think I'm actually that much better than most refs, but I think I have two big things in my favour: I'm really loud, and I'm able to maintain a running commentary of what I'm seeing. Supporters find it much harder to object when they can hear what the ref is seeing and why a particular decision has been made.

I've had two incidents where I've had to talk to supporters. On the first one, I offered him my whistle and asked if he would like to take over. I got an instant apology.

On the second, a U9 coach objected that I didn't give his team the ball after his player had bundled the ball carrier into touch after a tackle. That was more difficult in that I knew that it wasn't the right call to give the turnover but wasn't able to articulate it at the time (I later concluded that the tackler had basically thrown the ball carrier into touch after I had called the tackle complete - one count of a scrag tackle - not permitted at U9, and one of failing to permit the pass). I just had to say that I'd made my decision and would explain at the end of the match. I didn't need to - he came up at the end and apologised for overstepping the mark.
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Post by miaow on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 11:03 am

LondonTiger wrote:Allain Rolland is trying to install proper assessment, training and support. Too often this is then messed with by the main board who behave like fans and criticise refs on social media from an often one eyed view.

What also does not help is some coaches/Unions leaking the ref review they get every match whenever there are incorrect decisions listed.

That's definitely not helping. Didn't work out for Schmidt in the end - noo ref could save them from the ABs - but it just feels...dirty the manner in which throwing the ref under the bus has become a thing. Not to have a go at the Irish, but they really are the pinnacle of 'what can we get away with while exploiting the law for all its worth'. Did it under Kidney and theyve got worse/better at it under Schmidt. Less focus on playing the ref with technicalities would be good - and much less ragging on them in the media would be ideal, too.

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 11:09 am

Pretty much the same as moderating on here then

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 12:35 pm

Gooseberry wrote:Pretty much the same as moderating on here then
Very Happy

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Post by robbo277 on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 1:06 pm

Is there still a rugby match going on this weekend?

Ford or Slade to start? Assume Farrell is fit. No fence sitting allowed. I'm going Ford.

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Post by Afro on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 1:08 pm

I reckon, assuming no injuries, the exact same team as started Saturday
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Post by miaow on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 1:50 pm

Curve ball - Farrell at 10, Joseph at 13? Ford 22, Slade or AN Other (May fit/not) @ 23.

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Post by Afro on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 2:10 pm

Tuilagi is much more effective at 13 than 12
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Post by hugehandoff on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 2:16 pm

Firstly let me apologise as I just booked a last minute trip to watch this little match. Leave Thursday, arrive Tokyo Friday afternoon and return on Monday. I hope the expense will be worth it! I asked some friends to try and buy a ticket off a sad Kiwi or Welshman and it did not take too long.

As for the match. From a SA perspective will they start Louw and Marx to combat the Kamikaze twins at the breakdown? Turnovers were key against NZ (when has that stat ever been in our favour?) so SA will have to try and combat that area of strength for England. De Allende has been very good so we will need to watch him closely. With Kolbe likely to return can we exploit his lack of height?

Fingers crossed that we have a full team to pick from and that they are all 100%. We cannot afford to start anyone who ain't ready to rock and roll, which May did not appear to be last Sat. Very excited for this one.

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Post by BamBam on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 2:20 pm

Very jealous hugehandoff!

With Kolbe fit, I want to see May / Watson on his wing, challenging him every time in the air. Confident that they have strong enough chasing games as well as the aerial ability to target him there.. the risk is obviously if the kick is too long or the tackle is missed!

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Post by miaow on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 2:21 pm

Afro wrote:Tuilagi is much more effective at 13 than 12

In certain situations. In certain situations he also much more exploitable at 13. As EJ shows he can swap and change. The way SA play - very tight, very close, in and around the ruck, 1 or 2 passes, and then looking to exploit the space on turnover ball - there's a very clear case to be made for Farrell Tuilagi at 10-12. Or maybe they'll put Ford at 13 again, have Tuilagi defending at 12, and hope that Ford doesn't defend a 3 on 2 with Le Roux coming late in to the line on counter attack.

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Post by lostinwales on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 2:22 pm

The main problems with May were that he could not put his foot on the accelerator to make that score and that he left the game so early. Despite his leg issues he was surprisingly influential on that flank and very good in the air.

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Post by miaow on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 2:26 pm

I see the injury being put down as May's inability to skin Barrett. I'd say it's also a case of clever rugby.

How many times were Bridge and Reece bumped in to touch as England ran them, forced them, and pushed them off the park? Instant turnover ball. Must have happened at least 4-5 times in the NZ half, counter attacking from deep.

May keeps that in field he knows they will keep the pressure on, NZ's field is disorganised, and they'll recycle and still threaten points.

If he tries to take Barrett and Barrett gets to him (there was also B Barrett to beat I believe, no? so he'd still get tackled unless he can pass back inside) he's almost certainly bundled in to touch, it's turnover ball, and an instant release of pressure.

England's ability to keep NZ under sustained pressure won the game. May's decision to cut back inside was just another part of that - don't give the ball away cheaply.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 2:36 pm

Having watched the new Zealand match again paying close attention to the 13 channel ford was lining up at 10. The only time he found himself out wide was late in the 2nd half after a scramble defence. Tuilagi was exceptional in defence. Mau as well just put that right.

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Post by miaow on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 2:37 pm

Perhaps not close enough, then. He was regularly shifted to 13.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 2:37 pm

Have fun hugehandoff. Echo the jealousy!

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Post by bluestonevedder on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 2:38 pm

hugehandoff wrote:Firstly let me apologise as I just booked a last minute trip to watch this little match. Leave Thursday, arrive Tokyo Friday afternoon and return on Monday. I hope the expense will be worth it! I asked some friends to try and buy a ticket off a sad Kiwi or Welshman and it did not take too long.

As for the match. From a SA perspective will they start Louw and Marx to combat the Kamikaze twins at the breakdown? Turnovers were key against NZ (when has that stat ever been in our favour?) so SA will have to try and combat that area of strength for England. De Allende has been very good so we will need to watch him closely. With Kolbe likely to return can we exploit his lack of height?

Fingers crossed that we have a full team to pick from and that they are all 100%. We cannot afford to start anyone who ain't ready to rock and roll, which May did not appear to be last Sat. Very excited for this one.

That's awesome, well done hugehandoff. I'm extremely jealous!

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 2:39 pm

No he wasnt miaow. You're just plain wrong on that. Similar to saying that tuilagi was missing or not going for tackles. Feel free to point out specific times though and I'll have a look. Still have it recorded.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 2:45 pm

Tuilagi was brilliant in defence on Saturday, 'missed' all of one tackle in the 72nd minute I think and he was in the face of the ABs all game, his best overall performance since coming back into the side.

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Post by Scottrf on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 2:48 pm

Tuilagi smashing Retallick back was great.

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Post by TightHEAD on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 3:34 pm

The more I think about it the more I'm getting worried, the media are acting like we have already won, England shirts are sold out everywhere. I've got a bad feeling about this.
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Post by miaow on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 3:38 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:No he wasnt miaow. You're just plain wrong on that. Similar to saying that tuilagi was missing or not going for tackles. Feel free to point out specific times though and I'll have a look. Still have it recorded.

I'm absolutely not wrong. If you wish to pay me I'll gladly give you screenshots and timestamps.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 3:40 pm

You're wrong I'm afraid.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 3:40 pm

Stuff Power Rankings make it 70/30 in Englands favour. While that feels fair to me, it is not dissimilar to the NZ v Eng ranking.

If England, in my eyes, should win this but could lose. That makes it much more tense than last weekend - but even if defeated the team have done well.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 3:41 pm

Can we take this argument to a different thread please - otherwise this one gets dragged way off course.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 3:42 pm

It's not really an argument. Just a fact tuilagi was playing 13. So we can just underline it tbf.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 3:44 pm

It would be horrible to fail against south Africa now LT. A different challenge than the previous 2 games in that it's going to be blunt force trauma.

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Post by BamBam on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 3:45 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Stuff Power Rankings make it 70/30 in Englands favour. While that feels fair to me, it is not dissimilar to the NZ v Eng ranking.

If England, in my eyes, should win this but could lose. That makes it much more tense than last weekend - but even if defeated the team have done well.

If we'd lost to NZ it would have been seen as an adequate tournament, before losing to the best team. Now if we lose to SA I'd be very disappointed, weird how one game changes perception

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Post by king_carlos on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 3:46 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Stuff Power Rankings make it 70/30 in Englands favour. While that feels fair to me, it is not dissimilar to the NZ v Eng ranking.

If England, in my eyes, should win this but could lose. That makes it much more tense than last weekend - but even if defeated the team have done well.
Just look at the 2007 and 2011 finals to see how tense a game can get. Particularly with the depth South Africa have in the tight 5 it's going to be a very physical game. It will be interesting to see whether Marx or Kitshoff start rather than being held back for impact off the bench.

If South Africa can get their scrum and maul rolling properly then it will take a lot out of the England forwards, who are relied on heavily to shift the point of contact around the ruck by the England halfbacks.

I think England will have too much variety to their attack compared to SA but it should be tight game. Particularly if we kick poorly to Kolbe.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 3:48 pm

I would be disappointed, but there were worse points to have exited the tourney and worse opponents to lose a final to Very Happy

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 3:50 pm

Thinking about the extra pressure england now face ie in the final and low the favourite, we may be able to answer the leadership questions for a while. There was a wobble in terms of score board pressure vs Australia with the score after half time. There was pressure vs nz as well given we should have been further ahead and that can get to players. Both times the team responded positively. Big question again on saturday.

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 3:51 pm

BamBam wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Stuff Power Rankings make it 70/30 in Englands favour. While that feels fair to me, it is not dissimilar to the NZ v Eng ranking.

If England, in my eyes, should win this but could lose. That makes it much more tense than last weekend - but even if defeated the team have done well.

If we'd lost to NZ it would have been seen as an adequate tournament, before losing to the best team. Now if we lose to SA I'd be very disappointed, weird how one game changes perception

Very much s! A narrow loss and a feeling of being robbed by the TMO in the semi would be easier to take than losing to a pretty average SA

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 3:55 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Thinking about the extra pressure england now face ie in the final and low the favourite, we may be able to answer the leadership questions for a while. There was a wobble in terms of score board pressure vs Australia with the score after half time. There was pressure vs nz as well given we should have been further ahead and that can get to players. Both times the team responded positively. Big question again on saturday.

What I found interesting in the second half v NZ is that with Farrell struggling with his leg, Ford seemed to take on the leader duties.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 4:01 pm

Yup. There suddenly seems a nice little group. Always helps when you're coming out on the right side of scoreboard but the calmness in response is impressive.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 4:08 pm

To be honest losing to South Africa in the final would be a failure having beaten New Zealand, losing the semi would be far easier to take.

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