Let's put the 1/4's in perspective...

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Post by Dirtydave on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 9:30 am

First topic message reminder :

I have read some of these comments, and opinions since the RWC 1/4 finals, and there is a wealth of knowledge here, and a lot of valid comments, but I think there is a trend and issue no-one really taking seriously enough!

Player welfare / fatigue!

Of the 4 quarter finals, all 4 teams who were dominant in their matches had a much easier 10-15 days prior to their game.

England played 2 games to Australia's 3 In the 14 day period, no-one can claim an extra game isn't a hinderence, and Australia, as did Japan, Wales and Ireland all looked like they were running in custard!

Wales are the key team to highlight this, Wales have played 3 games in 11 days! And they looked like it first half, being run ragged by a France team looking well rested and we'll prepped. There were 3 key factors for Wales overcoming France...

The red card offset the fatigue difference!

This French team is poor, poor 2nd half v Argentina and Tonga, and they realistically avoided a whipping by England.

Wales conditioning levels, superb to stay in touch throughout.

So, 3 blowouts in the 1/4's, probably largely in part due to opposition fatigue, and a dominant performance thrown away.

What are everyone's thoughts on this?

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Post by Soul Requiem on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 3:00 pm

miaow wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
miaow wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:So control is not being in control then regaining control and saying you were always in control despite barely being in control?

No. It means France were clearly not in complete control. Neither team was. It's an utterly dull (becoming my favourite expression, cheers Brian) thing to say.

It's only dull because it's entirely true, France were in control, means little when you end up losing but it's still how it was.

The cognitive dissonance here is stunning...

Ouch on to the insults already.

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Post by ebop on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 3:03 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
ebop wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:I thought Wales looked really nervous in that game, but expect them to be more relaxed on Sunday.
More relaxed against SA than a wonky France?

Yes.

Last week there was the burden of expectation on them. No-one expected them to lose and that adds pressure, especially as losing would have put their campaign down as a failure. This week while they will expect to win, there is not the same pressure from outside. They will be able to push themselves as the underdogs and for whatever reason Wales do seem to prefer to be underdogs. So yes I do expect them to be more relaxed.

(How often do you see a goal kicker missing important kicks that are fairly straight forward, then bang one over from the touch line. It is because they relax knowing that no-one is expecting it to go over.)
Maybe one way of looking at it. If Wales are too relaxed SA will take them to the cleaners. Maybe the emotional toll of the 1/4 final has been too taxing and the pressure of now playing SA will be the tipping point. Unfortunately for Wales they’re not at full strength so I reckon they’re toast. But you never know right?
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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 3:04 pm

I am a little annoyed at having to look up cognitive dissonance. That it seems to have been incorrectly used does not improve my mood.

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Post by ebop on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 3:05 pm

Good pedantry
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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 3:05 pm

ebop wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
ebop wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:I thought Wales looked really nervous in that game, but expect them to be more relaxed on Sunday.
More relaxed against SA than a wonky France?

Yes.

Last week there was the burden of expectation on them. No-one expected them to lose and that adds pressure, especially as losing would have put their campaign down as a failure. This week while they will expect to win, there is not the same pressure from outside. They will be able to push themselves as the underdogs and for whatever reason Wales do seem to prefer to be underdogs. So yes I do expect them to be more relaxed.

(How often do you see a goal kicker missing important kicks that are fairly straight forward, then bang one over from the touch line. It is because they relax knowing that no-one is expecting it to go over.)
Maybe one way of looking at it. If Wales are too relaxed SA will take them to the cleaners. Maybe the emotional toll of the 1/4 final has been too taxing and the pressure of now playing SA will be the tipping point. Unfortunately for Wales they’re not at full strength so I reckon they’re toast. But you never know right?

Yup. We all pontificate but until the game happens really we are just whistling in the wind.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 3:06 pm

ebop wrote:Good pedantry

Is pedantry ever good?

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Post by Scottrf on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 3:15 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Looking at Gats face during that last 10 minutes his belief that they would pull it off was draining fast.

Luckily they did pull it off and relieved him. An explosion of emotions.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 3:17 pm

Scottrf wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Looking at Gats face during that last 10 minutes his belief that they would pull it off was draining fast.

Luckily they did pull it off and relieved him. An explosion of emotions.

And they slipped into a semi.

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Post by Old Man on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 3:21 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
ebop wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:I thought Wales looked really nervous in that game, but expect them to be more relaxed on Sunday.
More relaxed against SA than a wonky France?

Yes.

Last week there was the burden of expectation on them. No-one expected them to lose and that adds pressure, especially as losing would have put their campaign down as a failure. This week while they will expect to win, there is not the same pressure from outside. They will be able to push themselves as the underdogs and for whatever reason Wales do seem to prefer to be underdogs. So yes I do expect them to be more relaxed.

(How often do you see a goal kicker missing important kicks that are fairly straight forward, then bang one over from the touch line. It is because they relax knowing that no-one is expecting it to go over.)

It would be nice toplay a relaxed team for a change, wveryone is always so hyped and physical.

A mellow opponent would be preferable Wink

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 3:36 pm

I agree. Too many teams these days are only interested in beating you. Why can't we all just have a nice game without the bloody urgency.

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Post by miaow on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 3:36 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
miaow wrote:I agree this was different to the 6Ns game - I thought they'd lose when North botched the overlap, as that's the kind of position Wales typically take. It felt like 4 years ago v Australia where the pressure got to the team. But, great composure from Wales - it wasn't a last minute victory, they scored with 7 minutes to play. Plenty of time. How often do NZ score sucker punch tries? Seems it doesn't count when it's Wales...

No-one is saying it doesn't count.

People are just saying that in this specific game France lost it just as much as Wales won it. Not dissimilar to to 2017 in Cardiff. Great try from England to sneak the win, but seriously aided by some brainfarts (caused by fatigue) from Wales.

Gatland said that the better team lost - and on the day that seems a fair statement. But you know what,  I prefer a real win over a moral win. France could slink away from Japan with their moral victory but Wales stay and can still make history.

See, you're far too fair LT. Some people, like yourself, are saying that. Some people are saying 'France were in full control' - which is the kind of nuance-devoid statement that suggests they don't know much about rugby.

But anyway, what's 606 without a Welsh WUM on the eve of an England game Wales aren't even playing in, eh?

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Post by miaow on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 3:40 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
miaow wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
miaow wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:So control is not being in control then regaining control and saying you were always in control despite barely being in control?

No. It means France were clearly not in complete control. Neither team was. It's an utterly dull (becoming my favourite expression, cheers Brian) thing to say.

It's only dull because it's entirely true, France were in control, means little when you end up losing but it's still how it was.

The cognitive dissonance here is stunning...

Ouch on to the insults already.

It's not an insult. It's just fair. You've managed to wrap completely contradictory ideas in to one 'point'. Hence cognitive dissonance.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 3:43 pm

Fair enough point. Wales in full control of the game suggests that the extra game didn't affect them.

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Post by miaow on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 3:47 pm

I looked up full control. See if it was some sort of 80s macho action hero film that 7.5 had watched last night.

But no...

Just the name of a pressure washer.

If only...

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 3:51 pm

I don't understand your point miaow.

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Post by miaow on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 3:55 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't understand your point miaow.

That's on brand from you tbf.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 3:56 pm

You could be clearer rather than try to insult and talk down to people miaow. Why are you talking about pressure washers?

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Post by Soul Requiem on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 3:58 pm

miaow wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
miaow wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
miaow wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:So control is not being in control then regaining control and saying you were always in control despite barely being in control?

No. It means France were clearly not in complete control. Neither team was. It's an utterly dull (becoming my favourite expression, cheers Brian) thing to say.

It's only dull because it's entirely true, France were in control, means little when you end up losing but it's still how it was.

The cognitive dissonance here is stunning...

Ouch on to the insults already.

It's not an insult. It's just fair. You've managed to wrap completely contradictory ideas in to one 'point'. Hence cognitive dissonance.

And you still don't understand cognitive dissonance. There isn't anything contradictory about what I said at all, France were in control of the game until the red card at which they were 19-10 up and looking good but after that neither team had control.

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Post by miaow on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 4:00 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:You could be clearer rather than try to insult and talk down to people miaow. Why are you talking about pressure washers?

You'll work it out.

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Post by The Oracle on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 4:24 pm

Has anyone actually looked at the time line for this game?

France started well and scored two early tries. 0-12

Wales came back into the game and scored a try 7-12.

Wales apply some pressure and France concede a penalty 10-12. So France looking the better ball in hand but fairly even on the scoreboard at this point.

On 29 mins Moriarty yellow carded. Wales down to 14. And France then score two mins later when they had the 1 man advantage - 10-19.

Halftime

49 mins - France red card and down to 14 men.

55 mins Wales apply pressure - penalty 13-20

74 mins Wales applying the pressure and get a try - 20-19

79 mins Wales applying more pressure, kick to touch and have a rolling maul but France defend and Wales do not get another score and kick out to end the game instead.

Final score 20-19.

So it was back and forth to start but fairly even on the scoreboard up to the point where everyone still had a full compliment of players. France pulled ahead 5 more points when Wales had 14 men for 10 minutes, and Wales clawed back 10 points in 25 mins when France were down to 14. So I think that points to a game affected/decided on the scoreboard by players being off the field. Both teams scored a similar amount of points, pro rata, when the other team had a player off the field. So I’m not sure about ‘lucky’ for Wales. Sure, it helped. But then Moriarty going off helped France to 19 by the looks of it too. Who knows what would have happened had both players not gone off. We’ll never know.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 4:32 pm

Well I'm asking you now miaow. What do you mean? At the moment it just looks like you're throwing insults out again?

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Post by miaow on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 4:35 pm

Exactly Oracle.

'Full control'.

Shocked

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 4:39 pm

Oh I get it! It was you throwing around insults because you dont agree with others! Should have guessed.

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Post by miaow on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 4:44 pm

You're insulted because you don't understand something - dear me, 7.5...not everything's about you, not everything's an insult. Your haste to take offence is pretty telling of where you mindset is.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 4:47 pm

I think it's down to the fact you consistently insult people miaow. I agree more with dave on the control france had even though I think he overegged it a bit. You yourself suggest that wales were the ones with the upper hand. It's fine to have that view. You dont need to throw the digs out.

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Post by miaow on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 4:58 pm

I'm more insulted by the fact you're accusing me of consistently insulting people when I haven't even come close to insulting you here. You're not helped by years of being a pedantic WUM, unfortunately, so you can hardly expect the same fair and honest treatment as you'd give to non-WUM posters when discussing something.

Also your views are consistently, ridiculously black and white, anti-Welsh, and ridiculously pro-English. Which is fine - just don't expect to be immune from mild ridicule for your views/WUMs. There's a difference between than and insulting someone... Hug

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 5:05 pm

Perhaps you should consider the language you use and the way you use it? I'm very pedantic. Personally I see that as important to know what people mean as they can use phrases and words which dont seem to match situation they talk about. Clarification is very useful. I don't wum. I'm also not anti welsh though of course support england. So again just because you dont agree with me or the welsh poster who started this thread doesnt mean you have to try and talk down to people.
Incidentally saying that you're trying to ridicule someone because you dont agree with someone does suggest you're trying to insult and talk down to them. Pedantic of me I know. Anyhow that's my last post on this other than to discuss the points of the thread.

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Post by Old Man on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 5:09 pm

You are arguing for the sake of arguing.

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Post by Heaf on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 5:12 pm

I am just imagining it or wasn't this thoroughly done to death on other threads?

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Post by Old Man on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 5:20 pm

Yes, this is now the post morten of the post mortem.

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Post by miaow on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 5:21 pm

Heaf wrote:I am just imagining it or wasn't this thoroughly done to death on other threads?

An eternal tagline for 606 tbh...

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Post by Taylorman on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 5:37 pm

Dirtydave wrote:No 7

Any comparison to last Autumns matches are non sensical, unless you consider Wales heavy favourites against SA due to their recent dominance in results?

Oh well it explains the ABs being lethargic last AIs then, when Ireland won, and England nearly did.

Most ABs had played twice the amount of test rugby when the went to the AIs as they have to this point.

So that gives us confidence, and it’s showing.

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 5:39 pm

Have the WC just after the 6N then. That'll learn yis!

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Post by Taylorman on Fri 25 Oct 2019, 5:42 pm

We did in 1987. In May. That sure did learn us thumbsup

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