SF1 - Match Thread - ENGLAND v NEW ZEALAND - 26/10/19 - K/O 09:00 BST (PART 2)

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Post by miaow on Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:08 pm

First topic message reminder :

Because everyone else is getting a bit excited and the first thread is going to spill over during the match.

ENGLAND

Team:Daly; Watson, Tuilagi, Farrell (capt), May; Ford, Youngs; M Vunipola, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Lawes, Curry, Underhill, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Marler, Cole, Kruis, Wilson, Heinz, Slade, Joseph.

NEW ZEALAND

Team: Beauden Barrett; Sevu Reece, Jack Goodhue, Anton Lienert-Brown, George Bridge; Richie Mo'unga, Aaron Smith; Joe Moody, Codie Taylor, Nepo Laulala, Brodie Retallick, Sam Whitelock, Scott Barrett, Ardie Savea, Kieran Read (capt).

Replacements: Dane Coles, Ofa Tuungafasi, Angus Ta'avao, Patrick Tuipulotu, Sam Cane, TJ Perenara, Sonny Bill Williams, Jordie Barrett.



Venue: Yokohama
Referee: Nigel Owens
AR1: Romain Poite
AR2: Pascal Gauzere
TMO: Marius Joncker

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Post by The Oracle on Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:42 am

I’ve never seen another human have such a lob on for the equator!
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Post by Not grey and not a ghost on Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:49 am

Well done England. Well played and completely deserved win. Very few times I've seen the AB's dominated like this. Thought some of the performances by some of the players was outstanding. Biggest thing for me was the coaching. Absolutely completely out thought on the day.

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Post by SecretFly on Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:56 am

The Borg will assimilate though.

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Post by stub on Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:02 am

That ultimately did not work out for The Borg if I remember correctly....

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:25 am

England fined for the response to the Haka. Not massive, less than the £2.5k France got in 2011. Rules were broken by crossing half way line, so no real option, but still weird that WR have actively pushed it across social meeja.

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Post by majesticimperialman on Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:08 am

LondonTiger wrote:England fined for the response to the Haka. Not massive, less than the £2.5k France got in 2011. Rules were broken by crossing half way line, so no real option, but still weird that WR have actively pushed it across social meeja.
 If team are fined for responding to the Haka. Then the Haka as to go.

People/fans want too see a rugby match after the Anthems have been sung.

And not 23 men doing a dance before the game kicks off.

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Post by Cyril on Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:43 am

Does the fine go to the ‘victims’ of this transgression or just into the World Rugby coffers? Perhaps some of the money could be used to keep NZ players in NZ?

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Post by king_carlos on Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:57 am

I love the haka. It's a wonderful thing to witness when in the crowd. The response from fans of all nations is usually brilliant. It's a bit of theatre and at the end of the day professional sport needs to entertain to maintain viable.

The Haka vs Sipi Tau in 2011 was one of my favourite RWC moments. The noise from that crowd is wonderful. Similarly the Munster haka in 2008 was a marvelous moment.

I've never really bought the idea it gives NZ any sort of advantage over the other team. It pumps the crowd up more than anything. If professional rugby players aren't ready for the game by the time they run out for the anthems then the haka isn't going to do much either way in my opinion.

The fine is a storm in a teacup as well. World Rugby responded to the 2007 QF confrontation by stating neither side could cross the halfway. They clearly did so as several members of both sides looked millimetres from a pre-match scuffle.

Teams can respond, just not crossing halfway. If you cross halfway then you get fined. Not a complicated situation for the England players to have understood or avoided.

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Post by Taylorman on Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:17 am

king_carlos wrote:

I've never really bought the idea it gives NZ any sort of advantage over the other team. .

Agree, KC, Have always maintained that. Linking the haka with the outcome is fallacy.

Its NZ's haka thats widely criticised, simply because theyre more successful. I've done it several times for mainly school sides (in NZ its only school sides and the AB's, Maori Abs that actually do it. Some rural clubs perhaps, strong in Maori areas as well) and if you get carried away it can set your head spinning at the start of a match, its the only time in your life you spend deeply focussed on words, the actions, the co-ordination with others while loudly screaming from the belly, with such intensity and emotion, the screaming rattles inside your head like nothing else.. Its draining if you overdo it, and is likely more responsible for poor starts than anything.

I'm against the fine, dead against it. The English response was one of the most powerful statements I've seen- respectful yet imposing genuine intention, far more than any crowd singover. In fact if the crowd had been silent through that minute the atmosphere would have been even more electric, the English supporters backing the intense response of the players, silent but as one. I was more concerned with the English response that I was the haka itself.

With the fine I think if theyre going to have rules, they should be judged on a case by case basis. England crossed some silly line, but impeded nothing. World rugby could have said, overall, not a problem. In other cases, where players get into the space, fine them if they must.

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Post by Cyril on Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:22 am

For the record, I think the Haka is great too (and all the variants). I wouldn’t want to see the pre-match ‘challenges’ abolished. I do think that a World Rugby backs itself into a corner sometimes and lacks common sense though.

It’s not like NZ complained (and why would they?). If they had just left it, i’m Not sure anyone would have said anything.

Stuff and nonsense really.

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Post by SecretFly on Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:42 am

WR should be fined for bringing the game into disrepute.  

They've been mostly a bunch of precious asswholes during the WC, blaming everyone else for the problems they themselves compound with lippyness (Pichot about Wales and Toner), ineptitude (no contingency plans worth a damn for games that had to be cancelled), public criticism of their own referees when coaches get fined if they do it, publically reprimanding Scottish rugby when respectful silence for the dead might have been the best option so soon after the storm.

WR can basically screw itself.  They're pi-ssed about their Great Gobal Season being strangled by some unions and they is Not Going To Take It Anymore! mad

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Post by miaow on Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:03 am

I have no issue with the haka either. Just think it's stupid you can't respond on home territory - Wales not being able to blast out Cwm Rhondda with Go Compare man afterwards suggests that, yes, the ABs do get the blood pumping and fired up for the kick off, and it really does centre them and help them focus. It's not like teams don't blast music over the tannoy, anyway.

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Post by Cyril on Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:20 am

I would definitely be against Gio Compario ever being involved, but that’s just me.

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Post by Pie on Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:59 am

Taylorman wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:I was thinking of Franks more like a flanker in his work rate/handling than his carrying Taylor. Never rated him much in the scrum but he was very handy around the park.

Not having a go at all by the way, I just don't think this is a vintage NZ side. Was chatting with a NZ work buddy before the game and he was telling me this one of the best NZ sides ever....had to really bite my tongue as he's a nice guy.

No doubt they'll be back but there's some work to be done.

Similar with England, we're far from this all conquering side currently. Just a bit better than some of the competition It's been a very tight WC when you think about it.

Oh look the standards have dropped considerably bar probably England, and that will be much to do with Eddie.

Oz are shocking, and look at Ireland and Wales, both ranked the best side in the world st the start if this tournament. Their performances were an embarrassment to the game. One couldn't play and the other didn't losing to tier two side.

Our standard has dropped as well. You talk about poor backs. I don't see many good ones.

As was the All Blacks, their coach, their fans and the tv network. Talk about making fools of yourselves Laugh

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:30 am

king_carlos wrote:I love the haka. It's a wonderful thing to witness when in the crowd. The response from fans of all nations is usually brilliant. It's a bit of theatre and at the end of the day professional sport needs to entertain to maintain viable.

The Haka vs Sipi Tau in 2011 was one of my favourite RWC moments. The noise from that crowd is wonderful. Similarly the Munster haka in 2008 was a marvelous moment.

I've never really bought the idea it gives NZ any sort of advantage over the other team. It pumps the crowd up more than anything. If professional rugby players aren't ready for the game by the time they run out for the anthems then the haka isn't going to do much either way in my opinion.

The fine is a storm in a teacup as well. World Rugby responded to the 2007 QF confrontation by stating neither side could cross the halfway. They clearly did so as several members of both sides looked millimetres from a pre-match scuffle.

Teams can respond, just not crossing halfway. If you cross halfway then you get fined. Not a complicated situation for the England players to have understood or avoided.

Yeah, they could have avoided crossing the line, having then failed to retreat when asked the fine was inevitable. Mako said earlier that the players had decided in tour court that Marler should pay it. It is tiny and no more silly than the 2011 fine against Manu for wearing the wrong gumshield.

As to the effect of the Haka - will need to find the exact quote but Merhtens said that the effect is to increase the aura of the ABs and that it can create a 6 point advantage.

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Post by Taylorman on Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:37 am

The line is the English ten meter line, not the halfway line, so most of the side were over that. Not avoiding it was key. They clearly wanted to impose on the ABs and crossing the line may have got the ABs in crossed minds...‘they’re over the line, what else are they gonna do? ‘ I’d say it worked, and was certainly worth as some one said, a years worth of Eddies Lattes in London.

A V twenty meters away would have been less effective. Sounds pure Eddie. Naively cheeky.

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Post by Poorfour on Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:59 pm

It’s in the same category as David Sole’s slow walk, and Martin Johnson’s refusal to move in Dublin. They may or may not have lined up in the wrong place deliberately, but once there it was a measure of the focus they had on the game that they weren’t going to move.

The fine is small beer in the grand scheme of things. Six months ago, Joe Marler wasn’t expecting to earn any match fees from this RWC, so he’s already ten games up when you count the warm ups. I think he’ll happily pay it just for the devilment of having done it... and recoup it through the appearance fee he’ll get when he’s invited on House of Rugby to talk it through with Hask.
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Post by robbo277 on Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:59 pm

World Rugby: watch England's amazing response to the haka on our Rugby World Cup YouTube channel (1.2million views) as well as Twitter, Insta, in-app, printed on RWC-branded tshirts probably
Also World Rugby: England you're fined for your inappropriate response to the haka

Fair?

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Post by Soul Requiem on Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:03 pm

If you can't respond to the challenge how you wish to then the haka has to go.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:08 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:If you can't respond to the challenge how you wish to then the haka has to go.

England were not fined for responding. They were fined for crossing the half way line. Only £2k as well.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:09 pm

Taylorman wrote:The line is the English ten meter line, not the halfway line, so most of the side were over that. Not avoiding it was key. They clearly wanted to impose on the ABs and crossing the line may have got the ABs in crossed minds...‘they’re over the line, what else are they gonna do? ‘ I’d say it worked, and was certainly worth as some one said, a years worth of Eddies Lattes in London.

A V twenty meters away would have been less effective. Sounds pure Eddie. Naively cheeky.

Yes and no. The guidance is to stay on the 10m line, but the actual offence was crossing the half way line before the ref had signaled game on.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:10 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:If you can't respond to the challenge how you wish to then the haka has to go.

England were not fined for responding. They were fined for crossing the half way line. Only £2k as well.

That's just a nonsense I'm afraid, if as we're told all the time that the haka is a challenge then you should be able to confront that challenge, you cannot do that from 15 metres away so therefore it goes.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:12 pm

16 minutes into rewatching the game looking mainly for two things, where Ford is in defence and what Youngs is doing off the ball.

Ford: NZ have had five lineouts. At everyone Ford has been in the 10 channel with Farrell and Manu outside him. On two NZ had 6 in the line and Underhill is out in the defensive line inside of Ford and marking the AB who is not in the lineout. In open play Fords positioning varies, but unl;ess covering the back field is the closest back to the breakdown on his side.

Youngs: Fast to the ball for the first 90 seconds. Couple of minutes in Scott Barrett hits him late and when they get up appears to leave a knee in the back. Youngs is slow to the next breakdown and jogs between the next few. England potentially lose a good attacking position. Twice in the next 10 minutes he is pulled back off the ball delaying his arrival at the next breakdown. Englands good play seems to come when he sprints between breakdowns, but there are times he is jogging.

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Post by Afro on Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:16 pm

I watched the game back last night LT, and found exactly what you have said about Ford, and it carries on throughout the game. Not once can I see Ford line up in the defensive line on the outside of Tuilagi
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Post by LondonTiger on Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:25 pm

23 minutes in and "New Zealand have already kicked the ball 12 times" according to BOD.

However the preceding minute or so show how England won the kicking battle and forced NZ to start trying to run everything. Cross field kick to Reece sees the winger bundled into touch on Englands 10m line. Ford kicks from the lineout, finding grass and pinning Reece back in teh corner. He feeds to Barrett who kicks to touch - England having the lineout just inside the NZ 10m line - a 22m gain.

England attack off the lineout, NZ defend well and Farrell digs a grubber into touch in the corner. Smith box kicks to touch from the lineout. England then launch a series of attacks that culminate in the Underhill non-try.

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Post by Heaf on Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:59 pm

LondonTiger wrote:16 minutes into rewatching the game looking mainly for two things, where Ford is in defence and what Youngs is doing off the ball.

Ford: NZ have had five lineouts. At everyone Ford has been in the 10 channel with Farrell and Manu outside him. On two NZ had 6 in the line and Underhill is out in the defensive line inside of Ford and marking the AB who is not in the lineout. In open play Fords positioning varies, but unl;ess covering the back field is the closest back to the breakdown on his side.

Youngs: Fast to the ball for the first 90 seconds. Couple of minutes in Scott Barrett hits him late and when they get up appears to leave a knee in the back. Youngs is slow to the next breakdown and jogs between the next few. England potentially lose a good attacking position. Twice in the next 10 minutes he is pulled back off the ball delaying his arrival at the next breakdown. Englands good play seems to come when he sprints between breakdowns, but there are times he is jogging.

Sounds like negative play from the ABs Whistle

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:03 pm

That would account for his slow play in the first half before loosening off. Potentially.

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Post by robbo277 on Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:03 pm

Manu defending well from 13 in the link below. If you rely on tackled/missed tackle stats you'll miss work like this, it won't even register on the stats sheet.

But it is a big part of how England defend and it can often go missed.

https://twitter.com/CharlieFelix/status/1189472013343170560?s=19

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Post by robbo277 on Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:10 pm

Youngs was instrumental in our early try against NZ in 2018 by fixing the fringes and getting the forwards onto the front foot. It sounds like it was the same here but I'd have to rewatch the opening 2 minutes.

All these "fast starts" that England have managed in the last 18 months or so can probably be tied to Youngs to some degree, as the 9 is obviously so crucial to tempo. When he's on it he is our best 9 by a long way and better than most other 9s at the cup.

I'd say right now the top tier of 9s all probably belong to the semi finalists and Youngs isn't out of place in that company. Murray at his best would be the other one, but don't think he's been at top form for a while.

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Post by miaow on Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:20 pm

Taylorman wrote:The line is the English ten meter line, not the halfway line, so most of the side were over that. Not avoiding it was key. They clearly wanted to impose on the ABs and crossing the line may have got the ABs in crossed minds...‘they’re over the line, what else are they gonna do? ‘ I’d say it worked, and was certainly worth as some one said, a years worth of Eddies Lattes in London.

A V twenty meters away would have been less effective. Sounds pure Eddie. Naively cheeky.

You're contradicting yourself. I asked this exact question on game day (the morning after for you) and you vehemently denied England's response had any impact.

Hmmm...

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Post by miaow on Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:21 pm

robbo277 wrote:World Rugby: watch England's amazing response to the haka on our Rugby World Cup YouTube channel (1.2million views) as well as Twitter, Insta, in-app, printed on RWC-branded tshirts probably
Also World Rugby: England you're fined for your inappropriate response to the haka

Fair?

Haha - good point! Pretty ridiculous when you put it like that, isnt it.

miaow

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Post by Scottrf on Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:28 pm

robbo277 wrote:World Rugby: watch England's amazing response to the haka on our Rugby World Cup YouTube channel (1.2million views) as well as Twitter, Insta, in-app, printed on RWC-branded tshirts probably
Also World Rugby: England you're fined for your inappropriate response to the haka

Fair?

My favourite:

"You should stay in your own half.

NZ respectfully did so for most of the 80mins."

Scottrf

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Post by Heaf on Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:59 pm

miaow wrote:
Taylorman wrote:The line is the English ten meter line, not the halfway line, so most of the side were over that. Not avoiding it was key. They clearly wanted to impose on the ABs and crossing the line may have got the ABs in crossed minds...‘they’re over the line, what else are they gonna do? ‘ I’d say it worked, and was certainly worth as some one said, a years worth of Eddies Lattes in London.

A V twenty meters away would have been less effective. Sounds pure Eddie. Naively cheeky.

You're contradicting yourself. I asked this exact question on game day (the morning after for you) and you vehemently denied England's response had any impact.

Hmmm...

Maybe GALTED was right?

"The Taylormen work in shifts and in pairs, one on research and one doing the posting. There's a 5-minute handover so that the next pair are up to speed on what's going on, sometimes if the forum is busy this doesn't go smoothly and they can end up arguing with the previous pair but generally they are well briefed as to what's going on and who needs rebuffing."

Heaf

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