2019 General Election

by Duty281 Wed 30 Oct 2019, 10:40 am

First topic message reminder :

Now it's confirmed for December 12th (pretty much), I thought we should have a shiny new thread for the fourth and final UK GE of this tumultuous decade; a decade which has also included three referendums and four (maybe five) different Prime Ministers.

News this morning that Amber Rudd won't be defending her seat. Oh well.

Opinion polls currently have the Tories in a double digit lead, but it's anticipated to be a lot tighter than that by the time we reach the actual polling day.

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 25 Nov 2019, 3:33 pm

Also, it shouldn't need saying, but not every Tory voter wants Brexit.

by Duty281 Mon 25 Nov 2019, 3:34 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I mean Tory voters who share the politics of Ken Clarke, Rory Stewart, Phillip Hammond, Nick Boles, Sarah Wollaston....

Very few of them around, relatively speaking, compared to those who support Johnson. Even if Johnson loses that minority section of the Tory vote, it can be offset by the Labour Leavers and BP voters he will gain.

by Soul Requiem Mon 25 Nov 2019, 3:40 pm

Share the politics based on one single issue?

Don't forget they were all MPs who have without fail backed austerity measures so don't try and make out that their overall views are any different.

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 25 Nov 2019, 3:50 pm

All I'm saying is that the party has changed enough under Johnson's leadership that a number of Tory MPs felt they could no longer be members of it, and that it's highly unlikely that no Tory voters will feel the same.

by **Afro** Mon 25 Nov 2019, 3:53 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:Share the politics based on one single issue?

Don't forget they were all MPs who have without fail backed austerity measures so don't try and make out that their overall views are any different.

I don't think those who have left through choice, or are promoting rivals are doing so on one issue. Many of them are doing so because of the path they see the Conversatives taking, and I think Luckless is not making wild claims to say that if some MPs are doing that, then so will some supporters.

And on those who has the whip removed, there are some supporters who will see that as something they can't support, and switch allegiances

by Soul Requiem Mon 25 Nov 2019, 4:04 pm

So supporters of Phillip Hammond, a chancellor who carried on austerity are going to switch allegiances?

Clarke, Hammond and Stewart are no longer Tory Mps because of Brexit and Brexit alone, the economic policies of the party have moved slightly to the centre but are by and large the same, these are opinions based solely on leave/remain. I've said it before but Ken Clarke was a cabinet minister during the Thatcher years and the pair had a very strong working relationship, he himself was a chancellor who accelerated PFI within the NHS and relaxed measures on banking.

by **Afro** Mon 25 Nov 2019, 4:09 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:So supporters of Phillip Hammond, a chancellor who carried on austerity are going to switch allegiances?

Clarke, Hammond and Stewart are no longer Tory Mps because of Brexit and Brexit alone, the economic policies of the party have moved slightly to the centre but are by and large the same, these are opinions based solely on leave/remain. I've said it before but Ken Clarke was a cabinet minister during the Thatcher years and the pair had a very strong working relationship, he himself was a chancellor who accelerated PFI within the NHS and relaxed measures on banking.

Are you saying none of their supporters will switch allegiances?

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 25 Nov 2019, 4:10 pm

If the assumption is that all Labour Leave voters will desert the party, shouldn't that logic also apply to Tory Remain voters? Or is it only Leave voters who are allowed to care that much about Brexit?

by **Afro** Mon 25 Nov 2019, 4:12 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:If the assumption is that all Labour Leave voters will desert the party, shouldn't that logic also apply to Tory Remain voters? Or is it only Leave voters who are allowed to care that much about Brexit?

I don't think Brexit even comes into it.

Its the nonsense that some past Tory voters won't feel disillusioned with the party, in the same way that some MPs have.

by Soul Requiem Mon 25 Nov 2019, 4:13 pm

Afro wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:So supporters of Phillip Hammond, a chancellor who carried on austerity are going to switch allegiances?

Clarke, Hammond and Stewart are no longer Tory Mps because of Brexit and Brexit alone, the economic policies of the party have moved slightly to the centre but are by and large the same, these are opinions based solely on leave/remain. I've said it before but Ken Clarke was a cabinet minister during the Thatcher years and the pair had a very strong working relationship, he himself was a chancellor who accelerated PFI within the NHS and relaxed measures on banking.

Are you saying none of their supporters will switch allegiances?

I wouldn't go as far as saying none but supporters of Clarke and Hammond are hardline Tories, it would be akin to expecting a Dennis Skinner supporter to switch allegiance based on a singular issue like Brexit. I'd say the Rory Stewart branch is a bit more mobile in its views but they are small minority of the party.

by lostinwales Mon 25 Nov 2019, 4:15 pm

It's interesting to see how the newly independents do. I'd be very surprised if Grieve didn't hold on to his seat, and suspect Gauke may also.

by **Afro** Mon 25 Nov 2019, 4:16 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
Afro wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:So supporters of Phillip Hammond, a chancellor who carried on austerity are going to switch allegiances?

Clarke, Hammond and Stewart are no longer Tory Mps because of Brexit and Brexit alone, the economic policies of the party have moved slightly to the centre but are by and large the same, these are opinions based solely on leave/remain. I've said it before but Ken Clarke was a cabinet minister during the Thatcher years and the pair had a very strong working relationship, he himself was a chancellor who accelerated PFI within the NHS and relaxed measures on banking.

Are you saying none of their supporters will switch allegiances?

I wouldn't go as far as saying none but supporters of Clarke and Hammond are hardline Tories, it would be akin to expecting a Dennis Skinner supporter to switch allegiance based on a singular issue like Brexit. I'd say the Rory Stewart branch is a bit more mobile in its views but they are small minority of the party.

So you agree with Luckless

by Duty281 Mon 25 Nov 2019, 4:20 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:If the assumption is that all Labour Leave voters will desert the party, shouldn't that logic also apply to Tory Remain voters? Or is it only Leave voters who are allowed to care that much about Brexit?

No one is saying all 2017 Labour Leave voters will vote Tory. No one is saying that no 2017 Tory Remain voters will switch.

by Duty281 Mon 25 Nov 2019, 4:24 pm

lostinwales wrote:It's interesting to see how the newly independents do. I'd be very surprised if Grieve didn't hold on to his seat, and suspect Gauke may also.

Will expect both of those to lose their seats by comfortable margins. Independents always struggle against party machines.

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 25 Nov 2019, 4:25 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:If the assumption is that all Labour Leave voters will desert the party, shouldn't that logic also apply to Tory Remain voters? Or is it only Leave voters who are allowed to care that much about Brexit?

No one is saying all 2017 Labour Leave voters will vote Tory. No one is saying that no 2017 Tory Remain voters will switch.

Okay, take out the 'all'.

It just occured to me that we hear so much about disgruntled Labour Leave voters, but nothing about Tory Remainers, of whom there must be millions.

I suppose the question is whether Tory Remainers would rather leave the EU than allow Corbyn into Number 10. There's a dilemma for you!

by Soul Requiem Mon 25 Nov 2019, 4:26 pm

Afro wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
Afro wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:So supporters of Phillip Hammond, a chancellor who carried on austerity are going to switch allegiances?

Clarke, Hammond and Stewart are no longer Tory Mps because of Brexit and Brexit alone, the economic policies of the party have moved slightly to the centre but are by and large the same, these are opinions based solely on leave/remain. I've said it before but Ken Clarke was a cabinet minister during the Thatcher years and the pair had a very strong working relationship, he himself was a chancellor who accelerated PFI within the NHS and relaxed measures on banking.

Are you saying none of their supporters will switch allegiances?

I wouldn't go as far as saying none but supporters of Clarke and Hammond are hardline Tories, it would be akin to expecting a Dennis Skinner supporter to switch allegiance based on a singular issue like Brexit. I'd say the Rory Stewart branch is a bit more mobile in its views but they are small minority of the party.

So you agree with Luckless

Well no because the examples he used are constituencies with big Tory majorities hence the shared view being a bit nonsense. The marginals are where elections are won not targeting iron clad areas.

by Duty281 Mon 25 Nov 2019, 4:34 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:If the assumption is that all Labour Leave voters will desert the party, shouldn't that logic also apply to Tory Remain voters? Or is it only Leave voters who are allowed to care that much about Brexit?

No one is saying all 2017 Labour Leave voters will vote Tory. No one is saying that no 2017 Tory Remain voters will switch.

Okay, take out the 'all'.

It just occured to me that we hear so much about disgruntled Labour Leave voters, but nothing about Tory Remainers, of whom there must be millions.

I suppose the question is whether Tory Remainers would rather leave the EU than allow Corbyn into Number 10. There's a dilemma for you!

Well according to Ashcroft's polling, it's breaking out like this at the moment:

2017 Tory Remain voters

Who would make the better PM? Johnson 71%. Corbyn 4%.
If you had to choose, would you prefer a Johnson government or a Corbyn one? Johnson 88%. Corbyn 12%.
Would it be worse to Leave the EU or have Corbyn in number 10? Worse to leave the EU 24%. Worse to have Corbyn in number 10 72%.

2017 Labour Leave voters, by the same survey, would prefer to have Johnson as PM than Corbyn by a margin of 52-48 (haha).

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/11/have-you-decided-yet-who-will-win-the-debate-will-you-put-up-with-boris-to-get-brexit-week-2-of-my-general-election-dashboard/

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 25 Nov 2019, 4:43 pm

See if we had proportional representation, we'd know how that would translate into seats.

I don't doubt that Johnson's running away with it in the polls, but seat by seat... it's just so hard to say.

He has a majority of minus 21 (that's right, isn't it?). He needs to pick up more than the odd seat here and there, and again that's assuming the Tories can only gain seats.

by Duty281 Mon 25 Nov 2019, 5:10 pm

The Tories had 298 seats when Parliament dissolved, 28 short of a majority and 19 down from where they started following the 2017 GE.

But the vast majority (all?) of those lost 19 seats have gone to independents which will be turned back to blue with a minimum of fuss.

I'd agree that with FPTP we have a measure of uncertainty, but looking at the situation now I'd be astonished if the Tories end up with fewer than 350 seats. This could all change drastically in the next couple of weeks, of course, but only through a major gaffe and/or polling swing. At the moment, polling numbers are tallying with Labour's 1997 landslide.

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 25 Nov 2019, 5:32 pm

Duty281 wrote:The Tories had 298 seats when Parliament dissolved, 28 short of a majority and 19 down from where they started following the 2017 GE.

But the vast majority (all?) of those lost 19 seats have gone to independents which will be turned back to blue with a minimum of fuss.

I'd agree that with FPTP we have a measure of uncertainty, but looking at the situation now I'd be astonished if the Tories end up with fewer than 350 seats. This could all change drastically in the next couple of weeks, of course, but only through a major gaffe and/or polling swing. At the moment, polling numbers are tallying with Labour's 1997 landslide.

And that's a tricky one for the Tories now. They know it's their election to lose, but it's like defending a lead - you can't just stop playing.

by **Afro** Mon 25 Nov 2019, 7:11 pm

I am putting less credibility on the polling this time around. Sure I read somewhere that it is less reliable due to their samples and assumptions on extrapolating that out to the wider population, and then also to a FPTP system, being far less appropriate to the current environment.

In essence it said take the polls with a pinch of salt.

by Soul Requiem Mon 25 Nov 2019, 7:41 pm

Afro wrote:I am putting less credibility on the polling this time around. Sure I read somewhere that it is less reliable due to their samples and assumptions on extrapolating that out to the wider population, and then also to a FPTP system, being far less appropriate to the current environment.

In essence it said take the polls with a pinch of salt.

Tends to be the way when they don't show what you want.

They're normally a few % out but the leads they're showing can't be explained away in such a way, polling is also based on postcode so takes into account FPTP.

by **Afro** Mon 25 Nov 2019, 8:18 pm

Nah. I have a politics degree so know how things work and also get a lot of things by email.

I wouldn’t say this was down to “not saying what they want”. This was well qualified political specialists.

by Duty281 Mon 25 Nov 2019, 8:43 pm

There’s always a lot of warnings about the reliability of polls and, yes, you can get freak results under FPTP of that there is no doubt. But the last 100+ polls have shown a Tory lead and, generally speaking (with the notable exception of 2017), it is usually the Tory vote that is underestimated, not the Labour one.

by Luke Mon 25 Nov 2019, 9:15 pm

My problem with believing polls is since the referendum. When even on the morning most where predicting remain winning a close one.
Though agree with its more the Tories to lose at this moment.
The thing I'll be interested in is I'd the lib Dems do as badly. What happens there, surely there's only so many leaders you can go through before realising it more about the name and issues arising from the past.

by **Afro** Mon 25 Nov 2019, 9:18 pm

And they were not saying the Tories won’t have the most votes. In fact they were predicting a majority if I remember rightly.

They were just saying that they’re opinion was the polls were less reliable this time because of their own analysis of them.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 26 Nov 2019, 8:25 am

With postal votes about to hit the floor how surprising to see the Boris Johnson supporting Chief Rabbi telling us we are all scum if we vote for Labour...Yes we can make the UK more respectable if we vote for a homophobic.. racist..mysogynistic bigot that hates Palestinians instead..

Proud to be scum.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 26 Nov 2019, 9:25 am

Be nice if more People took the time to explain that income tax brackets are marginal...

So if you are in the Tax bracket that is raised to say 5% at £80,000....The extra tax would only start at £80,001...

So if you are earning £82k it will hardly hit you..

Seems to be a little confusion in certain quarters or blatant disingenuity going on....Suspect the latter

More clarity needed.

by **navyblueshorts** Tue 26 Nov 2019, 11:23 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:With postal votes about to hit the floor how surprising to see the Boris Johnson supporting Chief Rabbi telling us we are all scum if we vote for Labour...Yes we can make the UK more respectable if we vote for a homophobic.. racist..mysogynistic bigot that hates Palestinians instead..

Proud to be scum.

Could you post a link to Johnson's comments please? I can't seem to find it. Or are you saying the Chief Rabbi is calling you scum? Not sure I see that either...

by lostinwales Tue 26 Nov 2019, 11:56 am

Luke wrote:My problem with believing polls is since the referendum. When even on the morning most where predicting remain winning a close one.
Though agree with its more the Tories to lose at this moment.
The thing I'll be interested in is I'd the lib Dems do as badly. What happens there, surely there's only so many leaders you can go through before realising it more about the name and issues arising from the past.

The 'Issues of the past' are almost entirely manufactured because it has suited both Labour and Conservatives to dump all ills from the coalition government on the Lib Dem's. If Labour bothered to spend as much effort attacking the Tories as they are the Lib Dems they might be in a better place.

by **navyblueshorts** Tue 26 Nov 2019, 12:02 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Luke wrote:My problem with believing polls is since the referendum. When even on the morning most where predicting remain winning a close one.
Though agree with its more the Tories to lose at this moment.
The thing I'll be interested in is I'd the lib Dems do as badly. What happens there, surely there's only so many leaders you can go through before realising it more about the name and issues arising from the past.

The 'Issues of the past' are almost entirely manufactured because it has suited both Labour and Conservatives to dump all ills from the coalition government on the Lib Dem's. If Labour bothered to spend as much effort attacking the Tories as they are the Lib Dems they might be in a better place.

by **Dolphin Ziggler** Tue 26 Nov 2019, 12:17 pm

A lot of Labour voters have started the blame game. It’s either people who would dare to see Labour as antisemitic (despicable!) or the Lib Dems. It isn’t, it couldn’t be, Jeremy Corbyn.

I’ve had people who have argued with me that Corbyn clearly supported Remain before and clearly led people to vote that way now tell me how mature it is that he won’t campaign for Remain, not to try influence the voters in a referendum.

The faults need to be addressed

by CaledonianCraig Tue 26 Nov 2019, 12:21 pm

Of course many have issues with Corbyn and many also have issues with Johnson.

The thing here is the Tories have had nine years screwing up the country. Time to move over and let someone else have a go. We can see the mess Tories have made of things now will Labour do the same? Only way to find out is let them have a go.

by **superflyweight** Tue 26 Nov 2019, 12:21 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Luke wrote:My problem with believing polls is since the referendum. When even on the morning most where predicting remain winning a close one.
Though agree with its more the Tories to lose at this moment.
The thing I'll be interested in is I'd the lib Dems do as badly. What happens there, surely there's only so many leaders you can go through before realising it more about the name and issues arising from the past.

The 'Issues of the past' are almost entirely manufactured because it has suited both Labour and Conservatives to dump all ills from the coalition government on the Lib Dem's. If Labour bothered to spend as much effort attacking the Tories as they are the Lib Dems they might be in a better place.

Very true. Look at the absolute sh1tshow that the Tories have put on since the coalition ended in 2015. We've had 4 years of a standalone Conservative government in the last 22 years and in only 2 of those years have they had a majority and look at the f*cking state of things.

by lostinwales Tue 26 Nov 2019, 12:30 pm

I haven't read the Labour manifesto, but I'd be willing to bet that if Labour ditched Corbyn and the more reactionary dinosaurs from the shadow cabinet, found a leader with a brain and less baggage, did the right things to address the AS issues and suppress the worst aspects of momentum etc, they could leave 95% of it in place and walk this election.

by Soul Requiem Tue 26 Nov 2019, 12:31 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:Of course many have issues with Corbyn and many also have issues with Johnson.

The thing here is the Tories have had nine years screwing up the country. Time to move over and let someone else have a go. We can see the mess Tories have made of things now will Labour do the same? Only way to find out is let them have a go.

So we do away with democracy because you don't like it?

I'm not overly enamoured with the current government but for as long as this current iteration of Labour are in opposition it's the lesser of two evils.

by **Afro** Tue 26 Nov 2019, 12:34 pm

lostinwales wrote:I haven't read the Labour manifesto, but I'd be willing to bet that if Labour ditched Corbyn and the more reactionary dinosaurs from the shadow cabinet, found a leader with a brain and less baggage, did the right things to address the AS issues and suppress the worst aspects of momentum etc, they could leave 95% of it in place and walk this election.

Can anyone think of anybody who fits the bill? Quick think hard everyone

2019 General Election - Page 10 Badmiliband4

by lostinwales Tue 26 Nov 2019, 12:39 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:Of course many have issues with Corbyn and many also have issues with Johnson.

The thing here is the Tories have had nine years screwing up the country. Time to move over and let someone else have a go. We can see the mess Tories have made of things now will Labour do the same? Only way to find out is let them have a go.

So we do away with democracy because you don't like it?

I'm not overly enamoured with the current government but for as long as this current iteration of Labour are in opposition it's the lesser of two evils.

It's not guaranteed but this Labour is an unknown force as far as government goes, despite being dominated by politicians who were in place when they were last in government. Then you get the standard message which seems to be tax everyone more and its easy to see why you and many others might think this.

The thing about Blair is that he was able to convince people like yourself that you'd be OK with him in power. The current Labour party seems to be unable to forgive him for this, and unable to realise that they need to reach people like you to get into power. Core Labour plus a few conflicted brexiteers isn't going to be enough.

by CaledonianCraig Tue 26 Nov 2019, 12:41 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:Of course many have issues with Corbyn and many also have issues with Johnson.

The thing here is the Tories have had nine years screwing up the country. Time to move over and let someone else have a go. We can see the mess Tories have made of things now will Labour do the same? Only way to find out is let them have a go.

So we do away with democracy because you don't like it?

I'm not overly enamoured with the current government but for as long as this current iteration of Labour are in opposition it's the lesser of two evils.

Fine. Do not hold to account a Tory government that has oversaw:-

Project Windrush
The Grenfell Disaster
The almighty man sausage-up that Brexit has become
Austerity
Being the only government to be charged with contempt of Parliament
Prorogueing Parliament illegally

Their reward? An extended run in power.

by Soul Requiem Tue 26 Nov 2019, 12:48 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:Of course many have issues with Corbyn and many also have issues with Johnson.

The thing here is the Tories have had nine years screwing up the country. Time to move over and let someone else have a go. We can see the mess Tories have made of things now will Labour do the same? Only way to find out is let them have a go.

So we do away with democracy because you don't like it?

I'm not overly enamoured with the current government but for as long as this current iteration of Labour are in opposition it's the lesser of two evils.

It's not guaranteed but this Labour is an unknown force as far as government goes, despite being dominated by politicians who were in place when they were last in government. Then you get the standard message which seems to be tax everyone more and its easy to see why you and many others might think this.

The thing about Blair is that he was able to convince people like yourself that you'd be OK with him in power. The current Labour party seems to be unable to forgive him for this, and unable to realise that they need to reach people like you to get into power. Core Labour plus a few conflicted brexiteers isn't going to be enough.

Once you strip away Iraq which was a cluster**** of all cluster****s I'm not left with a lot of negativity towards Blair, I'd certainly be voting for him over Johnson and Corbyn, that's not exactly a glowing endorsement but it's where we currently are.

by Luckless Pedestrian Tue 26 Nov 2019, 12:50 pm

He's still a great public speaker, and talks a lot of sense in television interviews too.

We do still have politicians like this: Rory Stewart, for example. But sense isn't popular at the moment. People don't want to hear about difficult choices and compromise. They want to be told that they can have what they want, and that it'll be easy.

by Luke Tue 26 Nov 2019, 2:31 pm

lostinwales wrote:I haven't read the Labour manifesto, but I'd be willing to bet that if Labour ditched Corbyn and the more reactionary dinosaurs from the shadow cabinet, found a leader with a brain and less baggage, did the right things to address the AS issues and suppress the worst aspects of momentum etc, they could leave 95% of it in place and walk this election.

Kier Starmer springs to mind. And I think your right

by Luckless Pedestrian Tue 26 Nov 2019, 2:36 pm

They were saying on the news at lunchtime that three million people have registered to vote since the general election was called.

by Steffan Tue 26 Nov 2019, 2:52 pm

I really do not know how this election is going to go. Some polls are showing Tories way ahead and then others shifting towards Labour at least doing enough to at least stop Tories getting a majority. Labour not doing well in the Welsh polls. The gammon is strong here at the moment sadly

by Steffan Tue 26 Nov 2019, 2:53 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:They were saying on the news at lunchtime that three million people have registered to vote since the general election was called.

The majority are under 35 according the The Independent. I hope that is a good thing

by Luckless Pedestrian Tue 26 Nov 2019, 3:41 pm

Does anyone remember how things were done for the EU referendum? Was that done by the electoral register too?

by Luckless Pedestrian Tue 26 Nov 2019, 3:42 pm

Steffan wrote:I really do not know how this election is going to go. Some polls are showing Tories way ahead and then others shifting towards Labour at least doing enough to at least stop Tories getting a majority. Labour not doing well in the Welsh polls. The gammon is strong here at the moment sadly

Labour were up 8% in the last Wales-only poll I saw. ITV Wales commissioned it I think.

EDIT: My mistake, they're up 9%. Tories expected to gain seats, but they need two just to get to where Theresa May left them.

https://www.itv.com/news/wales/2019-11-25/welsh-labour-increases-poll-lead-but-still-has-seats-at-risk-in-election/

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 26 Nov 2019, 3:51 pm

One poll has Labour 19 behind another one 7...

Difference between a hung parliament and a wipe out..

Guessing games with turnout weightings......If the Polls do close expect more Zionist leaders to claim Corbyn is Satan..

Yes they all support the Tories and treat any other racism as irrelevant..

But they are objective observers one and all.

by Soul Requiem Tue 26 Nov 2019, 3:59 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:One poll has Labour 19 behind another one 7...

Difference between a hung parliament and a wipe out..

Guessing games with turnout weightings......If the Polls do close expect more Zionist leaders to claim Corbyn is Satan..

Yes they all support the Tories and treat any other racism as irrelevant..

But they are objective observers one and all.

I was waiting for you to start blaming it on Zionism laughing

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 26 Nov 2019, 4:07 pm

All opinions welcome...

Lib Dems started on around 19%...Laboring around 15% now and down to as little as 12% on some Polls...

Must take some doing that when two much maligned leaders are opposing them...Just been drowned out and when Swinson needed to deliver on Friday she didn't hit the mark..

Still 2/3 more debates left so time to renew..

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