World player of the year

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 8:34 am

A shortlist has been drawn up of the following, I know jack all on the women:

Men: Tom Curry (England), Cheslin Kolbe (South Africa), Pieter-Steph du Toit (South Africa), Alun Wyn Jones (Wales), Ardie Savea (New Zealand), Joe Taufete'e (United States)

Women: Sarah Bern (England), Pauline Bourdon (France), Kendra Cocksedge (New Zealand), Katy Daley-Mclean (England) and Emily Scarratt (England)

Can't overly agree that this is the strongest selection based on performance. Last 2 feels like the need to throw in a last hurrah for a soon to be retiring Welsh great and ticking a box for a tier 2 nation. Savea,Curry or du Toit for me.


England flanker Tom Curry and Wales captain Alun Wyn Jones nominated for player of the year - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50259687

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Post by Taylorman on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 8:36 am

I’d probably go with Kolbe. Genuine star in 2019.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 8:39 am

You just feel tomorrow will dot the I s in this selection for people. Should Kolbe tear England apart...

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 8:40 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:A shortlist has been drawn up of the following, I know jack all on the women:

Women: Sarah Bern (England), Pauline Bourdon (France), Kendra Cocksedge (New Zealand)

McLean and Scarratt, perhaps more the latter, have been very good in the past but do not deserve to be on the list for 2019. Cocksedge will probably win, but look for a highlights reel for Sarah Bern then double check her position.



Last edited by LondonTiger on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 8:42 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Soul Requiem on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 8:42 am

PSDT and AWJ shouldn't be on the shortlist at all, not as sold on Kolbe as others.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 8:53 am

Class highlight reel LT.

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Post by Old Man on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 8:57 am

Soul Requiem wrote:PSDT and AWJ shouldn't be on the shortlist at all, not as sold on Kolbe as others.

So it should be between Curry and Savea then?

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Post by mikey_dragon on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 9:16 am

AWJ for POTY. Heartbeat of the nation but of course, the English will say he shouldn't be there.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 9:17 am

Old Man wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:PSDT and AWJ shouldn't be on the shortlist at all, not as sold on Kolbe as others.

So it should be between Curry and Savea then?

I'd probably say yes but much depends on the final tomorrow.

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Post by Poorfour on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 10:02 am

mikey_dragon wrote:AWJ for POTY. Heartbeat of the nation but of course, the English will say he shouldn't be there.

No at all. I think AWJ probably does deserve it, for his career even if there are other players who've been more stellar this year. He's taken Wales to #1 in the World (albeit briefly), an RWC semi-final and won Grand Slams and Lions tours. He's a very fine player, and this is the last chance to give it to him.

In terms of sheer impact in 2019 it's between Curry and Kolbe, but they are fairly early in their international careers. And if you give to Curry now, you run the risk of him dominating he award for the next decade, because he's only going to get better... [/remove tongue from cheek]
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Post by bluestonevedder on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 11:26 am

mikey_dragon wrote:AWJ for POTY. Heartbeat of the nation but of course, the English will say he shouldn't be there.

Rubbish Mikey. Not all English think the same. He's an exceptional player who has given everything for his country time and time again. Deserves his place undeniably.

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Post by TightHEAD on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 11:34 am

AWJ leadership is not in question, if it was the 'world captain of the year award' he'd win it and fully deserve it, but he is hardly the best lock/player at the RWC is he.
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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 11:35 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:A shortlist has been drawn up of the following, I know jack all on the women:

Men: Tom Curry (England), Cheslin Kolbe (South Africa), Pieter-Steph du Toit (South Africa), Alun Wyn Jones (Wales), Ardie Savea (New Zealand), Joe Taufete'e (United States)

Women: Sarah Bern (England), Pauline Bourdon (France), Kendra Cocksedge (New Zealand), Katy Daley-Mclean (England) and Emily Scarratt (England)

Can't overly agree that this is the strongest selection based on performance. Last 2 feels like the need to throw in a last hurrah for a soon to be retiring Welsh great and ticking a box for a tier 2 nation. Savea,Curry or du Toit for me.


England flanker Tom Curry and Wales captain Alun Wyn Jones nominated for player of the year - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50259687

If England win Id be surprised if it doesnt go to Curry. Likewise Kolbe if SA win. I would possibly have had Handre Pollard on the list as well and maybe Itoje (even though he is irritating).

Personally I think Wyn Jones deserves to be on the list as much as Savea but neither will win in my view.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 11:36 am

TightHEAD wrote:AWJ leadership is not in question, if it was the 'world captain of the year award' he'd win it and fully deserve it, but he is hardly the best lock/player at the RWC is he.

That makes very little sense. Leadership is part of being a player. Barrett has rarely been the best OH around but often considered for the best player award.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 11:44 am

I do not think that is the most inspiring list.

AWJ - Past his best and tbh not the best lock in the world.
Curry - Should really be up for breakthrough player of the year, especially considering only N'tamack of those nominees is younger than him. Rules do not allow it though as due to the cap as an 18yo in 2017
Kolbe - has played just 6 tests this year
Taufete'e - tokenism

Which for me leaves PSdT.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 11:47 am

Its not a great list but who would you add? Only Pollard and Itoje stand out for me. Curry deserves his place, he is a big reason why England have turned things around this year IMO.

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Post by TightHEAD on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 11:49 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:AWJ leadership is not in question, if it was the 'world captain of the year award' he'd win it and fully deserve it, but he is hardly the best lock/player at the RWC is he.

That makes very little sense. Leadership is part of being a player. Barrett has rarely been the best OH around but often considered for the best player award.

I disagree, there is a myth built around AWJ at the moment. Great Captain, good player. But WPOTY?
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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 11:52 am

TightHEAD wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:AWJ leadership is not in question, if it was the 'world captain of the year award' he'd win it and fully deserve it, but he is hardly the best lock/player at the RWC is he.

That makes very little sense. Leadership is part of being a player. Barrett has rarely been the best OH around but often considered for the best player award.

I disagree, there is a myth built around AWJ at the moment. Great Captain, good player. But WPOTY?

Dont see why not. He is an excellent lock, great captain and a big reason why wales wom a gs and got to a RWC semi. Fully deserved IMO.

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 11:54 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:AWJ leadership is not in question, if it was the 'world captain of the year award' he'd win it and fully deserve it, but he is hardly the best lock/player at the RWC is he.

That makes very little sense. Leadership is part of being a player. Barrett has rarely been the best OH around but often considered for the best player award.

Hardly the best captain either this year. Just cant see how he gets in line for WPOTY an any basis. Theres maybe been other years he couldve deserved to be in the conversation (17) but didnt even get a nomination. This year just feels odd, and the timing of the nominations is bizarre coming just before the world cup final. 

(Although what period of games does it cover?)

It does feel like hes owed a nomination as a giant of the game (in both senses) 

Where Jonny May with 9 tries in 9 tests against Teri one opponents in 2019? Thats more than Kolbe has in his entire test career including games against teir 2. For all the plaudits he hasnt scored a try against a top 7 team this year. 

Honestly theres definitely a feel of politics in the nominations.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 11:57 am

Anyone know why there is a random USA player on the list? Pichot?

I don't think it's a great list, and of the times I've said Farrell shouldn't be on a list, he should be on this one. Perhaps May too. Two of England's best and most consistent players. Curry is up there but for me hasn't quite done enough to win the award. I think the mostly likely to win it is Kolbe for being a game-changer.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 11:57 am

There is nothing odd about it, he lead a side to a GS and a world cup semi. Those equal Wales' greatest ever achievements. Have Wales ever won a GS and got to the semis of the RWC in the same year?

There are always politics involved anyway.

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 12:04 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Anyone know why there is a random USA player on the list? Pichot?

I don't think it's a great list, and of the times I've said Farrell shouldn't be on a list, he should be on this one. Perhaps May too. Two of England's best and most consistent players. Curry is up there but for me hasn't quite done enough to win the award. I think the mostly likely to win it is Kolbe for being a game-changer.

Is he a game changer in tests? 

Test tries in the last 12 months...

1 against Argentina at the end of a game SA won 46 - 13
2 against Japan in a game SA won 41-7 
2 against Italy in a game SA won 49 - 3 

Flat track bully? Chris Ashton without the swan dives?

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 12:05 pm

I'm backing McCaw to do it again. He's been laid up for most of the season but his shadow plays on better than before.

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 12:09 pm

Yep, if Kolbe gets it, then you know it's a promotional win (one directed at kids newly sparked by the game) rather than one dedicated to hard graft influence.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 12:12 pm

I didn't want to be accused of bias but May has had a better year thus far than Kolbe, can't help but think the hype surrounding him is a way over the top for what he's actually done.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 12:19 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:I didn't want to be accused of bias but May has had a better year thus far than Kolbe, can't help but think the hype surrounding him is a way over the top for what he's actually done.

Yeah May has scored tries against everyone. Interestingly he has scored more tries v SA than any other side.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 12:22 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Anyone know why there is a random USA player on the list? Pichot?

I don't think it's a great list, and of the times I've said Farrell shouldn't be on a list, he should be on this one. Perhaps May too. Two of England's best and most consistent players. Curry is up there but for me hasn't quite done enough to win the award. I think the mostly likely to win it is Kolbe for being a game-changer.

Is he a game changer in tests? 

Test tries in the last 12 months...

1 against Argentina at the end of a game SA won 46 - 13
2 against Japan in a game SA won 41-7 
2 against Italy in a game SA won 49 - 3 

Flat track bully? Chris Ashton without the swan dives?

I wasn't just referring to his try-scoring, otherwise wouldn't Adams would be on the list? Of all the guys on the list I feel his is the game-changer. Not a great list like I said.

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Post by TightHEAD on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 12:24 pm

Farrell for me.
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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 12:27 pm

So how has he changed games? Hes hardly the heart of SAs defence. Did he captain wales to a grand slam when I wasnt looking?

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 12:27 pm

Tuillagi at 12 for me

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Post by mikey_dragon on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 12:30 pm

Gooseberry wrote:So how has he changed games? Hes hardly the heart of SAs defence. Did he captain wales to a grand slam when I wasnt looking?

By gaining ground and creating opportunities for others. Seriously, are you just going out of your way to get all p'ssy because I haven't nominated an English person off the list, despite alluding to two others not on the list? Get the heck over it.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 12:53 pm

I've never liked the way this award is set up.

It's supposed to be only for Test match performances, but you'll hear judges lauding European Cup or Super Rugby contributions, so it's clear they sometimes take those into account.

It's also supposed to be only for a certain window of Test matches, usually not including the Autumn Internationals, but it's also clear that judges sometimes value them very highly, and oher times ignore them. Does anyone think Ireland's victories over New Zealand were never taken into account? There's no consistency.

Then there's the kind of question posed by AWJ, where he's actually had a great Northern Hemisphere season - including last year's autumn internationals - but a more mixed calendar year season. There's no doubt he's in more for the first count, rather than the second.

Since we don't have a global season, then one hemisphere is always going to be a bit shortchanged by the timing of the awards but it does lead to some strange outcomes.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 12:55 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:I've never liked the way this award is set up.

It's supposed to be only for Test match performances, but you'll hear judges lauding European Cup or Super Rugby contributions, so it's clear they sometimes take those into account.

It's also supposed to be only for a certain window of Test matches, usually not including the Autumn Internationals, but it's also clear that judges sometimes value them very highly, and oher times ignore them. Does anyone think Ireland's victories over New Zealand were never taken into account? There's no consistency.

Then there's the kind of question posed by AWJ, where he's actually had a great Northern Hemisphere season - including last year's autumn internationals - but a more mixed calendar year season. There's no doubt he's in more for the first count, rather than the second.

Since we don't have a global season, then one hemisphere is always going to be a bit shortchanged by the timing of the awards but it does lead to some strange outcomes.

The biggest problem with it is that most SHers can barely name a player outside of the SANZAR nations whereas NH judges are more familiar with players globally.

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Post by Old Man on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 1:03 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:I've never liked the way this award is set up.

It's supposed to be only for Test match performances, but you'll hear judges lauding European Cup or Super Rugby contributions, so it's clear they sometimes take those into account.

It's also supposed to be only for a certain window of Test matches, usually not including the Autumn Internationals, but it's also clear that judges sometimes value them very highly, and oher times ignore them. Does anyone think Ireland's victories over New Zealand were never taken into account? There's no consistency.

Then there's the kind of question posed by AWJ, where he's actually had a great Northern Hemisphere season - including last year's autumn internationals - but a more mixed calendar year season. There's no doubt he's in more for the first count, rather than the second.

Since we don't have a global season, then one hemisphere is always going to be a bit shortchanged by the timing of the awards but it does lead to some strange outcomes.

The biggest problem with it is that most SHers can barely name a player outside of the SANZAR nations whereas NH judges are more familiar with players globally.

To befair half the SH players are up north.

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Post by Taylorman on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 1:22 pm

LondonTiger wrote:I do not think that is the most inspiring list.

AWJ - Past his best and tbh not the best lock in the world.
Curry - Should really be up for breakthrough player of the year, especially considering only N'tamack of those nominees is younger than him. Rules do not allow it though as due to the cap as an 18yo in 2017
Kolbe - has played just 6 tests this year
Taufete'e - tokenism

Which for me leaves PSdT.

Just shows how standards have dropped.

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 1:50 pm

Old Man wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:I've never liked the way this award is set up.

It's supposed to be only for Test match performances, but you'll hear judges lauding European Cup or Super Rugby contributions, so it's clear they sometimes take those into account.

It's also supposed to be only for a certain window of Test matches, usually not including the Autumn Internationals, but it's also clear that judges sometimes value them very highly, and oher times ignore them. Does anyone think Ireland's victories over New Zealand were never taken into account? There's no consistency.

Then there's the kind of question posed by AWJ, where he's actually had a great Northern Hemisphere season - including last year's autumn internationals - but a more mixed calendar year season. There's no doubt he's in more for the first count, rather than the second.

Since we don't have a global season, then one hemisphere is always going to be a bit shortchanged by the timing of the awards but it does lead to some strange outcomes.

The biggest problem with it is that most SHers can barely name a player outside of the SANZAR nations whereas NH judges are more familiar with players globally.

To befair half the SH players are up north.


Explains how the Islander who plays for a NH team got nominated then

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Post by Exiledinborders on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 5:25 pm

I would be happy to see AWJ get an award for his career - some sort of hall of fame thing. However he is clearly not even the best lock at this world cup.

Itoje not being on the list seems odd.

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 5:41 pm

I think getting the nomination is his reward exiled. And I'm still not sure of this includes the AIs an how much if any of the world cup. If it's from last autumn to the endnif this summer he fully deserves a nomination to be fair. Just this calendar year including all games ...much less so.


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Post by lostinwales on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 5:44 pm

Right now I think you'd struggle to find a better performing, more important more influential player than Itoje.

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 5:57 pm

lostinwales wrote:Right now I think you'd struggle to find a better performing, more important more influential player than Itoje.

Are you sure you're not plagiarising Beshocked there, lost? His lawyers will be writing the warning letters.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 5:58 pm

Ha. Beshocked just thought he was this good when he was 13 and often wondered why brian ashton wouldn't pick him.

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Post by Poorfour on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 6:10 pm

lostinwales wrote:Right now I think you'd struggle to find a better performing, more important more influential player than Itoje.

Right now, yes. But I think he was trying too hard, and giving away too many penalties, during the 6 Nations.
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Post by Taylorman on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 3:38 am

Saveas an outside shot at this for NZ if the points assigned through the season is still the way these are picked. Had a strong season and even had a good semi now I’ve seen the numbers.

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Post by miaow on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 6:32 am

It's either Curry or PSDT depending on who wins this game today. Curry is more prominent in my mind as deserving of it but that may be due to not seeing PSDT as much. I also feel like there are other candidates - namely Josh Adams, a breakthrough season with great performances from the start, winning the 6Ns, and now top try scorer at the RWC - who could be there as well. If this is based purely on test form, and not club form, I'd say he deserves it over Kolbe.

Hard to pick one. So many teams have beaten each other in a round robin format that no one really stands out. In a RWC year it ends up going to whoever wins it, really, so there are 3 options, 2 obvious ones, with Kolbe capable of nicking it if he does something amazing to win the game.

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Post by miaow on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 6:38 am

Not to jinx Curry, either - but the idea that he will just get better and better doesn't seem to play out anymore.

Rugby is so, so attritional that it's getting a younger and younger game. Curry's breakthrough isn't dissimilar to Warburton's and although they seem different mentally in many ways, they clearly share some traits. We all know what happened to Warburton, and as much as anything, you wonder when and how injuries will impact Curry's game, because he will pick them up the way he plays. If he starts dialing it back - as all players will happily admit they do once they establish themselves, coasting or at least not going full on through club games and focusing on the 'big' international games - how much less effective will he be? Will he still be lauded, will he still be effective?

This is the last thing you want to think about so early on but I just think it's so indicative of where the game has gone and how much more physical it is even in the last 7-8 years. How well he gets managed could/will be key. I'd say the same goes to Underhill but perhaps less so, he's less blood and thunder and all action like Curry. There's, effectively, less to 'lose' by having your game changed through injuries.

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Post by Taylorman on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 7:29 am

Na, curry breakthrough, kolbe or savea poty.

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Post by Dirtydave on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 1:44 pm

I personally had the 2 favourites to win as AWJ and PSDT, just popping Savea who by his standards has had a quiet world cup.

After today though, I'd be amazed if PSDT wasn't named, what a performance!

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Post by Pie on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 7:35 pm

TightHEAD wrote:Farrell for me.

Not after that shocker he just had

Pie

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World player of the year Empty Re: World player of the year

Post by Pie on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 7:36 pm

TightHEAD wrote:AWJ leadership is not in question, if it was the 'world captain of the year award' he'd win it and fully deserve it, but he is hardly the best lock/player at the RWC is he.

He'd be one of the best locks as well as being 1 of the top 3 skippers

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World player of the year Empty Re: World player of the year

Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 7:36 pm

Lol.

No 7&1/2

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World player of the year Empty Re: World player of the year

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