World player of the year

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 8:34 am

First topic message reminder :

A shortlist has been drawn up of the following, I know jack all on the women:

Men: Tom Curry (England), Cheslin Kolbe (South Africa), Pieter-Steph du Toit (South Africa), Alun Wyn Jones (Wales), Ardie Savea (New Zealand), Joe Taufete'e (United States)

Women: Sarah Bern (England), Pauline Bourdon (France), Kendra Cocksedge (New Zealand), Katy Daley-Mclean (England) and Emily Scarratt (England)

Can't overly agree that this is the strongest selection based on performance. Last 2 feels like the need to throw in a last hurrah for a soon to be retiring Welsh great and ticking a box for a tier 2 nation. Savea,Curry or du Toit for me.


England flanker Tom Curry and Wales captain Alun Wyn Jones nominated for player of the year - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50259687

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Post by Old Man on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 7:50 pm

It is probably between Pieter Steph du Toit and Kolbe.

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Post by Galted on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 8:01 pm

miaow wrote:
Hard to pick one. So many teams have beaten each other in a round robin format that no one really stands out. In a RWC year it ends up going to whoever wins it, really, so there are 3 options, 2 obvious ones, with Kolbe capable of nicking it if he does something amazing to win the game.

Slightly disturbing even if the game was nearly won.
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Post by Taylorman on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 8:38 pm

Kolbe was a common SH pick going into this so his final performance and even more so his stunner versus NZ in pool play will help his chances there. I believe those selectors award 3,2 and 1 point during every qualifying test match which is why I maintain Savea is in the running. He had a consistently stunning year, an equally good WCup and is the only one who can be proud of his semi versus England effort, topping the tackle count with 19 from 19 and good meters, turnovers.

It’s that sort of consistency that wins this thing. He will have accrued a lot of points, as will have Kolbe.

But then they go to top six point scorers and ‘agree’ on one, if I recall correctly, and that may mean a SA winner, understandably so. So Kolbe or PSDT for me, savea close, with curry in there as well.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 8:42 pm

Thought curry was again the best english player. Kolbe didn't show up much bar the last ten when may was off.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 8:44 pm

Well I got ridiculed for suggesting Kolbe, but once again he shows what he can do in little space. Based on the last two games it’s probably du Toit - so realistically it’s between him and super-AWJ.

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Post by Taylorman on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 8:47 pm

Whoever ridicules you for Kolbe is a plonk the, AJW is a romantic pick, a career pick, and not based on individual player performance. If he was the best player in the world he would have won it by now. Best lock this year has been Itoje, so how does that explain things? You should be best in your position to win best player surely?

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Post by miaow on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 8:55 pm

Best lock in the world = best lock in the semi final v NZ, apparently...

AWJ is hardly flawless but Itoje is still far too inconsistent and has done little to deserve that title. AWJ has a Grand Slam and huge winning streak to his name that, ultimately, in competitive test matches, only ended against SA - 19 games. Itoje, despite reaching the final, ultimately has nothing to show for England's good form - particularly as he refused the silver medal...

No one stands out. No one's been consistently excellent. These awards are stupid anyway. It's a bunch of ex pros deciding on a non-controversial selection for the most part with none of them being that bothered to pay too much attention or sense of fairness. It's the ultimate gravy train award.

It's either the consistent grafter in du Toit or the headline maker in Kolbe. Flip a coin.

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Post by majesticimperialman on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 8:59 pm

Taylorman wrote:Whoever ridicules you for Kolbe is a plonk the, AJW is a romantic pick, a career pick, and not based on individual player performance. If he was the best player in the world he would have won it by now. Best lock this year has been Itoje, so how does that explain things? You should be best in your position to win best player surely?
I do agree with you regard AWJ for the reasons you give. I can remember when Brian Odriscoll announced his retirement from international rugby after the 6ns was over. I think it was Ireland v England game 6ns, he was sh""te and he got Man of the Match. ( even he was shocked).

So yes best player of the year should be the best player in any position. And AWJ is not the best in his position.

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Post by Taylorman on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 9:05 pm

miaow wrote:Best lock in the world = best lock in the semi final v NZ, apparently...

AWJ is hardly flawless but Itoje is still far too inconsistent and has done little to deserve that title. AWJ has a Grand Slam and huge winning streak to his name that, ultimately, in competitive test matches, only ended against SA - 19 games. Itoje, despite reaching the final, ultimately has nothing to show for England's good form - particularly as he refused the silver medal...

No one stands out. No one's been consistently excellent. These awards are stupid anyway. It's a bunch of ex pros deciding on a non-controversial selection for the most part with none of them being that bothered to pay too much attention or sense of fairness. It's the ultimate gravy train award.

It's either the consistent grafter in du Toit or the headline maker in Kolbe. Flip a coin.

Kolbe and Savea were consistently excellent, Savea more so.

And no AWJ doesn’t have a GS and huge winning streak. The Welsh rugby side do. This is about individual player performance. And AWJ has not been the best rugby player in test rugby this year.

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Post by miaow on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 9:08 pm

Haha. So AWJ doesn't have a Grand Slam...yet 'you', as part of the 'we' that is NZ, have all the success of the ABs? Genuinely couldn't write it. It's pretty clear you think Itoje is the best lock in the world because he played well against NZ, that's it. Lawes was equally if not better this year, so it's not like Itoje was even the best lock in England.

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Post by Taylorman on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 9:18 pm

miaow wrote:Haha. So AWJ doesn't have a Grand Slam...yet 'you', as part of the 'we' that is NZ, have all the success of the ABs? Genuinely couldn't write it. It's pretty clear you think Itoje is the best lock in the world because he played well against NZ, that's it. Lawes was equally if not better this year, so it's not like Itoje was even the best lock in England.

No, I said that simply because others did. Using other NH fan arguments. I couldn’t name a SH lock for this year so yielded to the northern fans and only the Welsh are touting AWJ as the best player in 2019. So yeah, he may be the best lock? Cool.

He wasn’t the best player across all positions.

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Post by miaow on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 9:19 pm

Haha. Good to know..at least you're honest tbf.

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Post by TightHEAD on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 10:30 pm

Garces.
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Post by miaow on Sun 03 Nov 2019, 3:02 pm

Pieter Steph du Toit wins it. Hard to argue with that.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Sun 03 Nov 2019, 3:19 pm

Taylorman wrote:
miaow wrote:Best lock in the world = best lock in the semi final v NZ, apparently...

AWJ is hardly flawless but Itoje is still far too inconsistent and has done little to deserve that title. AWJ has a Grand Slam and huge winning streak to his name that, ultimately, in competitive test matches, only ended against SA - 19 games. Itoje, despite reaching the final, ultimately has nothing to show for England's good form - particularly as he refused the silver medal...

No one stands out. No one's been consistently excellent. These awards are stupid anyway. It's a bunch of ex pros deciding on a non-controversial selection for the most part with none of them being that bothered to pay too much attention or sense of fairness. It's the ultimate gravy train award.

It's either the consistent grafter in du Toit or the headline maker in Kolbe. Flip a coin.

Kolbe and Savea were consistently excellent, Savea more so.

And no AWJ doesn’t have a GS and huge winning streak. The Welsh rugby side do. This is about individual player performance. And AWJ has not been the best rugby player in test rugby this year.

He was better than both Kiwi locks and quite a few others though.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Sun 03 Nov 2019, 3:40 pm

miaow wrote:...AWJ has a Grand Slam and huge winning streak to his name that, ultimately, in competitive test matches, only ended against SA - 19 games...
Do you think those matches you classify as not competitive should also be taken off player's cap counts?

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Post by miaow on Sun 03 Nov 2019, 3:47 pm

Na, just putting it in perspective. Wales were metres and minutes away from a RWC final, and if they had, they wouldn't have been beaten in 'proper' games - i.e. anything but the warm ups - since losing to Ireland in the 2018 6 Nations. The 2 games lost in that tournament were by less than a score, against Ireland and England, away from home, and with Wales in the ascendancy towards the end. Particularly against Ireland, Wales were a botched pass away from winning the game with the final play. It's an unprecedented level of winning consistency for Wales, where even their losses have been marginal and hard fought.

From a Welsh perspective, ofc it's also the team, and you can discuss the merits of AWJ in this, although it began in his first season as full time captain, they came incredibly close to a huge winning streak that would culminate in a WC final, which they may well have won. But for even half the injuries we suffered I think we would have made the final, and then it's a 50:50, as yesterday showed.

You're free to judge the warm ups as you like, but for me, they're not competitive test matches. Whether they ount as caps...who knows. Not for me to say, I think that idea is watered down in this day and age and harks back to something less professional.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Sun 03 Nov 2019, 3:55 pm

miaow wrote:Na, just putting it in perspective. Wales were metres and minutes away from a RWC final, and if they had, they wouldn't have been beaten in 'proper' games - i.e. anything but the warm ups - since losing to Ireland in the 2018 6 Nations.
On that basis, England never lost a game from the March 2002 French defeat, to the March 2004 loss to Ireland. However, I don't think anyone is awarding England a new record for unbeaten Test matches. Our loss in a 2003 warm-up to France still counts.

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Post by miaow on Sun 03 Nov 2019, 3:58 pm

That would be fair. Just put an asterisk next to it. Puts the 03 WC win in perspective.

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Post by majesticimperialman on Sun 03 Nov 2019, 5:24 pm

Just seen on bbc sport.PSDT, got the men's player of the year.

Emily Scaratt  got the women's player of the year.

Well done to both of them. clap clap clap clap


Last edited by majesticimperialman on Sun 03 Nov 2019, 5:58 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Taylorman on Sun 03 Nov 2019, 5:36 pm

Yes we’ll done, and SA get the trifecta of team, men’s player and coach. Who’d have thought that two days ago.

Awesome! Very Happy

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Post by majesticimperialman on Sun 03 Nov 2019, 6:09 pm

Taylorman wrote:Yes we’ll done, and SA get the trifecta of team, men’s player and coach. Who’d have thought that two days ago.

Awesome! Very Happy
Well, not New Zealand that is for sure. Whistle

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Post by Taylorman on Sun 03 Nov 2019, 6:34 pm

Yeah, OK then

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Post by whocares on Sun 03 Nov 2019, 8:48 pm

Well done PTSD but does anyone really remember who won these trophies after a couple of years (specially for folks in NZ who tends to win most of them anyway so hardly a novelty).
Don’t worry people of Wales prince AWJ shall eventually win it next year or so when or before he retires. Looks like talking about his merits over here is as sensitive as discussing the Haka with New Zealanders.

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Post by The Great Aukster on Sun 03 Nov 2019, 10:10 pm

whocares wrote:Well done PTSD but does anyone really remember who won these trophies after a couple of years (specially for folks in NZ who tends to win most of them anyway so hardly a novelty).
Don’t worry people of Wales prince AWJ shall eventually win it next year or so when or before he retires. Looks like talking about his merits over here is as sensitive as discussing the Haka with New Zealanders.

New Zealand are the only ones who care about these sort of awards.
AWJ doesn't need a photograph to tell him how good a rugby player he is - he knows individual awards are against the spirit of the team game.

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Post by miaow on Sun 03 Nov 2019, 10:14 pm

NZ is, you're right. They're livid when their players don't win it, generally. Think they were burning effigies of Shane Williams in Wellington when he won it in 2008...

The players who win it care, obviously. Good for them. But it's a really 'unfair' award in that not much thought or fairness goes in to it.

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Post by Taylorman on Sun 03 Nov 2019, 10:59 pm

Shanes not available Miaow, you ok to take his place?

I'll book the flight. Laugh

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Post by miaow on Sun 03 Nov 2019, 11:06 pm

Did that make sense in your head? Something must have got lost between the grey matter and fingertips.

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 04 Nov 2019, 9:08 am

PSdT is a fair enough choice.

Scarratt a ridiculous one that suggests the panel do not watch or even pay attention to the womens game. While she is a great player, this season was her return from 7s and really just saw her finding her feet again in XVs. I woudl not have placed her in teh top 5 English performers this season, let alone PotY.

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Post by Pal Joey on Mon 04 Nov 2019, 9:26 am

Thought Cocksedge might have come closer to winning it.
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Post by The Great Aukster on Mon 04 Nov 2019, 1:04 pm

LondonTiger wrote:PSdT is a fair enough choice.

Scarratt a ridiculous one that suggests the panel do not watch or even pay attention to the womens game. While she is a great player, this season was her return from 7s and really just saw her finding her feet again in XVs. I woudl not have placed her in teh top 5 English performers this season, let alone PotY.

Does performance have anything to do with it?
Isn't the main point of the event for WR to get some nice marketing photos of clean photogenic people who also play a bit of rugby?

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Post by miaow on Mon 04 Nov 2019, 2:22 pm

Ausker's basically right. As is LT. I highly doubt the panel knows jack abou women's rugby. Even more a case of pick the media-friendly option.

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Post by SecretFly on Mon 04 Nov 2019, 2:25 pm

Who was on the panel, please? - as just a matter of interest that up until now I've had no interest in... Whistle

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Post by miaow on Mon 04 Nov 2019, 2:27 pm

SecretFly wrote:Who was on the panel, please? - as just a matter of interest that up until now I've had no interest in... Whistle

HERSH, 7.5, Cyril, mikey, Taylorman, and Ugo Monye.

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Post by Mr Bounce on Mon 04 Nov 2019, 9:58 pm

Totally agree with the PSDT award - well deserved. However, much as I like Emily Scarratt, I cannot see why she won the award over Sarah Bern. Bern has had an amazing season and is an example to all players of the all-round game a world class prop should aspire to these days. Having Bern and Hannah Botterman as our 2 first choice props is frightening.

Oh yeah, Emily Scarratt is better looking, runs fast and kicks goals. That'd probably be why.

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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 05 Nov 2019, 11:39 am

I cannot understand why people are questioning AWJ being on the list, Grand Slam winning captain, and a world cup semi final, in a WC where he was instrumental for his country, all within 12 months.

Just saying like. Very Happy

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