RWC Final 2019 - Match Thread - ENGLAND v SOUTH AFRICA - Spill Over/Match Reaction Thread

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Post by miaow on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 10:29 am

other one's getting full

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 11:13 am

Great game, well done South Africa. Two excellent tries to cap off a wonderful sporting story. Scrum was supreme and carried the day, as feared. Tactically excellently and won the breakdown battle.

Pretty much everything went wrong for England from the start with the bus being late (or something). Never really recovered from losing Sinckler and having to play the sub-standard Cole for pretty much the full 80 - a massive loss to England's mobility. For all Jones' 'bravery' with the subs, he absolutely had to haul Youngs off for Spencer at half-time because the 9 was having one of the worst games I've ever seen in an England shirt.

Key moment was probably when England went 25 phases in the Saffer 22 and couldn't score. It seemed a tough ask from then. England were dominated, overall, just like NZ were.

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Post by miaow on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 11:13 am

Garces topping a potentially controversial (though I didn't see it) performance by saluting the crowd with his medal.

He's nothing if not confident...

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Post by No name Bertie on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 11:16 am

Of course this will be more devastating for the English rugby players and coaches than the English fans - so let's be careful about the criticism given to them. For me they were outmuscled, outplayed, and out thought by the South African team. England didn't know how to respond (or didn't have the talent in depth or strength in depth to respond) to what South Africa brought to this game.

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Post by Taylorman on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 11:19 am

Oh well, at least we beat the winners in the comp, first time anyone’s been able to say that.

Now Rassie stands down as coach?

Lot of weird things about to happen for a lot of sides now it’s over.

Riveting match of pressure, tension and finally...some tries!

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 11:19 am

Well it wasn't pretty but it was damn effective. Strangled to death and we just couldn't get any momentum.

Ref didn't have the best of games but no real complaints about the loss. Still time for this young side to grow together

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Post by miaow on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 11:20 am

I really don't think you can criticise a single English player. The ways that failed were 'there' in the processes, systems, and experiences, but it was just a case of whether SA could exploit them - and they did. I don't think a single player particularly underperformed, even if some weren't the game changers who could play and lead on the back foot as you'd perhaps like/need. But you can't be perfect in sport, and SA had the ultimate gameplan to win the WC, as mentioned elsewhere. Scraped past Wales despite having similar physical dominance, lost to 2 counter attacks from NZ with similar physial dominance...they put it all together when it really mattered.

Not a single English player stood out in letting the team down. I know the inclination is to see the absence of excellence is a failure - you want Youngs or Farrell or Curry or whoever to step up and lead and do the fairytale stuff - but that absence isn't the same as the presence of playing poorly.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 11:20 am

To lose is acceptable...to lose without even showing up is unacceptable.

But then i didnt expect us to get to the final so..whatever.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 11:21 am

miaow wrote:Garces topping a potentially controversial (though I didn't see it) performance by saluting the crowd with his medal.

He's nothing if not confident...

Top ref, probably the best in the business right now

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 11:21 am

Didn't really see many mistakes from the ref. Thought a couple of pens at the scrum could have gone the other way, maybe unlucky with a couple of breakdowns but nothing drastic. You simply can't make as many unforced errors as england did.

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Post by No name Bertie on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 11:22 am

In summary SH teams have won 8 world cups and NH teams 1 world cup. Maybe Rugby is more established culturally within SH nations (the trinations) than it is for NH nations (the six nations).

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Post by milkyboy on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 11:22 am

Sadly I think they’ll look back and think they choked. Because that what it looked like. Wild passes, knock ons dropped high balls. Right from the off. It looked like the occasion got to them. If your set piece is taking a beating and you keep offering up field position with basic mistakes, it’s always going to be a long night. Even so, it’s fine margins. If the Farrell penalty goes over it’s a 3 point game and the momentum is with England.




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Post by miaow on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 11:22 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Still time for this young side to grow together

Tough on the likes of Mark Wilson, Dan Cole and a few others as well - because there won't be a next time for them, but they played their part when asked.

Can't underestimate the impact Sinckler going down early had on the English players. Not just that, but the game barely got going for the first 5 minutes, and SA took the sting out of the fast English start - did the same v Wales last week as we'd beaten them by opening up quick scores then holding out. You have to say, Erasmus was up there as a world class coach, and pre tournament, many people were tipping them for precisely that reason - big, strong, potent players with a world class tactical mind.

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Post by miaow on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 11:24 am

Kolisi looking totally bewildered with the trophy. Nice moment. Hard to understand what that means, really. At least personally speaking.

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 11:25 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Still time for this young side to grow together

Absolutely, this is just the start. Hopefully they can become a more consistent side over the next four years, especially in the Six Nations.

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Post by miaow on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 11:26 am

No name Bertie wrote:In summary SH teams have won 8 world cups and NH teams 1 world cup.  Maybe Rugby is more established culturally within SH nations (the trinations) than it is for NH nations (the six nations).

Clearly. Rugby is the #1 sport in 2 of the big 3 SH countries. It's nominally the #1 in only 1 of the 6 Nations, or 5 if you exclude Italy.

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Post by NeilyBroon on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 11:26 am

Commiserations England. You have had a good tournament. To lose at the final is nothing to be ashamed of, South Africa were more street wise today. Disappointed for you but take it from a Scotland fan, you're in a very good place and will be better for it, at least you have strong foundations to work from!
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Post by Old Man on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 11:27 am

Well, that was nice thanks.

Commiserations England, good throughout the RWC

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Post by owen10ozzy on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 11:30 am

Credit to S Africa. Always said England wouldn't roll them over today. Massive well done to the defence. Key to the win. England too loose and too many mistakes in first half.

Key points for me were the 25 phase play; should have continued rolling it as it was our time on top & then 2nd half passage where Farrell went for the penalty and missed! Huge tactical error for me their. Won two line outs and got on top of scrum...you kick for touch and exert pressure and ask them questions their. Don't go for goal!

Tactically out though and only one teams defence turned up. Deserved world champions! Well done Rassmuss and well done South Africa!

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Post by No name Bertie on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 11:31 am

England had to deal with three trination teams one after the other. They beat two of them in getting to the final (Australia and NZ) but weren't able to cope with a third SA.

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Post by Pal Joey on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 11:35 am

Old Man wrote:Well, that was nice thanks.

Commiserations England, good throughout the RWC

I hope Joost van der Westhuizen, James Small, Ruben Kruger, Chester Williams and of course Madiba are all smiling up there, mate.
And that this great victory will go a little way to making things feel better in your beautiful country... you deserve this. Hug
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Post by Old Man on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 11:35 am

Thanks Tom.

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Post by TightHEAD on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 11:35 am

Still room for big fat lads in our game out muscled and out thought today.

Well 'played?' SA.
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Post by Heaf on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 11:35 am

Well that was disappointing but congrats to SA. Losing Sinkler was huge and England never really got going. Not helped by lack of consistency from Garces and a couple of iffy calls at key moments, but far too many errors to stand any chance of winning.

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Post by TightHEAD on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 11:36 am

All to play for in the Lions now!
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Post by Pal Joey on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 11:38 am

Old Man wrote:Thanks Tom.

My pleasure, Corne.
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Post by miaow on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 11:38 am

Rugby's pretty simple at times. All the top teams, bar NZ, are on a very similar standard, but with different strengths.

Ultimately, NZ trusted their superior skills alone to get around one fundamental truth about systems in sport - if it has more components, it has more opportunities to fail.

SA took the total opposite approach where, say, Japan went full on in to complexity. Ultimately, SA kept it totally simple, trusted the basics, and despite a far from perfect performance - 2 missed kicks, a stupid penalty from a restart to hand England 3 points to made it a 1 score game again, knock ons and errors - they had a gameplan that was built on minimalism and counter attacking. And it all came together perfectly in that second half, which itself was built on forward and scrum dominance in the first 40.

I think the key question was: what were England trying to do? What were England trying to do different fr SA than they had shown against NZ and Oz and anyone else? It's hard to really see. One excellent sustained period of pressure in the SA'n 22 only led to 3 points. It felt there would be more, but in the end, England never got close again. They couldn't mitigate the scrums, they couldn't STOP the scrums, they couldn't get the ball out of the half for kickable penalties well enough...if NZ were totally naive last week, there was some naivety here from England. It felt too much...too much was built on trying to impose their own game which was the strike running moves off Ford and Farrell, going through phaseplays, mixing it up like they did v NZ...and therefore the question is, why didn't they realise SA would be different to NZ?

In the end, the bounce of the ball can be crucial, the luck of the game can show its hand and had England got an early lead, they have always looked much, much better at holding out, picking off, or even steamrolling the opposition than coming from behind. And that didn't fall England's way.

Big questions for where England go from here, because ultimately the scoreline is ugly. I don't think Eddie Jones will stay, but you never know. Maybe he fancies another crack.

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Post by protea438 on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 11:38 am

Well done Boks

Hard luck England

This is a poster child of living off previous results, many non-English pundits were asking if England could perform again, I guess they couldnt, maybe close to bottling.

Rassie - surely coach of the year. Taking nobodies to World Cup winners.
Boks - Team of the year

Best final for the Boks

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Post by TightHEAD on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 11:39 am

Too many basic errors to really grumble with the result but how many times did Garces say to SA hands off? Yet we had only 2secs to place the ball before a penalty was given against us. As for the scrums we were poor
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Post by Steffan on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 11:42 am

TightHEAD wrote:All to play for in the Lions now!
The Lions will lose

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Post by miaow on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 11:44 am

This SA team should be peaking in 2-3 years time. SA tour in 09 was the best tour in my life. Expect more of the same.

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Post by Steffan on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 11:49 am

miaow wrote:This SA team should be peaking in 2-3 years time. SA tour in 09 was the best tour in my life. Expect more of the same.
Perhaps I'll have to start saving for the next Lions tour as long as Gatland picks lots of Welsh players

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Post by Heaf on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 11:50 am

TightHEAD wrote:Too many basic errors to really grumble with the result but how many times did Garces say to SA hands off? Yet we had only 2secs to place the ball before a penalty was given against us. As for the scrums we were poor

Garces showing his usual inconsistency there ...

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Post by RDW on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 11:50 am

It's funny how teams always seem to peak coinciding with the Lions cycle!

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Post by Heaf on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 11:51 am

Steffan wrote:
miaow wrote:This SA team should be peaking in 2-3 years time. SA tour in 09 was the best tour in my life. Expect more of the same.
Perhaps I'll have to start saving for the next Lions tour as long as Gatland picks lots of Welsh players

Be interesting to see how he goes as he won't be the Wales coach then.

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Post by miaow on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 11:55 am

RDW wrote:It's funny how teams always seem to peak coinciding with the Lions cycle!

Just my opinion that there's some world class young talent in SA, much of it not in this squad. I said the same pre tournament but then, in the end, they've won the RWC now, effectively 12 months in to the cycle. So maybe the priorities over the next 4 years are different than if they'd lost today.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 11:57 am

England nees to stop losing the crucial games.

A few tweaks to the team and we will dominate the world and win the next world cup. I have said that on here before.

A few grand slams on the way.
English rugby is in good health....

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Post by No name Bertie on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 12:00 pm

Almost from the whistle it looked liked South Africa were in control of that match. At no stage were England ahead. As the game progressed South African control of that match strengthened. Eventually England's resistance collapsed.

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Post by Steffan on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 12:01 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:A few tweaks to the team and we will dominate the world and win the next world cup.  I have said that on here before.

A few grand slams on the way.
English rugby is in good health....
Possibly. You are gonna have to go through us first mind Wales

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Post by miaow on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 12:02 pm

No name Bertie wrote:Almost from the whistle it looked liked South Africa were in control of that match.  At no stage were England ahead.  As the game progressed South African control of that match strengthened.  Eventually England's resistance collapsed.

Like NZ last week, England's tactics - or lack of - played in to SA's hands in that regard. Having had such a monstrously effective kicking gameplan over the last 18 months their kicknig was really, really poor today.

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Post by protea438 on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 12:05 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:England nees to stop losing the crucial games.

A few tweaks to the team and we will dominate the world and win the next world cup.  I have said that on here before.

A few grand slams on the way.
English rugby is in good health....

I not so sure, Egland got bullied/

One thing England are best at is spending tons of money on consultants. Think they definitely need a motivational / head coach. Target the 2027 World Cup, players should have enough time to learn by then

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Post by miaow on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 12:06 pm

I don''t see how England can dominate world rugby. The NPC down in NZ is playing a sport that's years if not a full decade ahead of how the game is played in England. An attritional, tough league takes it out of the players as it is. But the skills just aren't there, the game understanding isn't there.

England can win the next WC, certainly. But to dominate the game for a year or two or more while doing so? I cannot see it. Only NZ can do that, I don't think SA are capable of it either.

I feel like a brokn record, but we've seen it for a few years: every team can beat any other. Even team has at least one big game in them - often, the opoposition cannot cope.

England didn't 'peak' last week or underperform today (in the sense of not turning up). It's just last week was their big game. If SA become the best team in the world, they will be picked apart and their tatics dismantled soon enough as coaches see them as the ultimate scalp.

It's not about dominance, it's about the trophy. England came cose, very close, this year.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 12:06 pm

Steffan wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:A few tweaks to the team and we will dominate the world and win the next world cup.  I have said that on here before.

A few grand slams on the way.
English rugby is in good health....
Possibly. You are gonna have to go through us first mind Wales

Not an issue. We'll smash you all over. This is a new breed of England. They learned a lesson today that will hurt!!
It will drive them on.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 12:08 pm

protea438 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:England nees to stop losing the crucial games.

A few tweaks to the team and we will dominate the world and win the next world cup.  I have said that on here before.

A few grand slams on the way.
English rugby is in good health....

I not so sure, Egland got bullied/

One thing England are best at is spending tons of money on consultants. Think they definitely need a motivational / head coach. Target the 2027 World Cup, players should have enough time to learn by then

Dont talk rubbish.

We have unrivalled talent coming through that are driven , huge and skilled.

World domination will come....


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Post by Duty281 on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 12:10 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:England nees to stop losing the crucial games.

A few tweaks to the team and we will dominate the world and win the next world cup.  I have said that on here before.

A few grand slams on the way.
English rugby is in good health....

Losing the crucial games seems to be a ingrained English rugby trait. One WC final victory out of four final appearances. Lots of lost Six Nations games at key times, especially under Woodward and Lancaster. Only 2 grand slams in the Six Nations in 20 attempts, which is a poor return.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 12:12 pm

Duty..

Its a clear issue.

But this generation will change that.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 12:14 pm

Some quality players coming through that's true. A few tweaks coming the 6 nations but no need for wholesale changes. The better set of fixtures for us as well.

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 12:16 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Duty..

Its a clear issue.

But this generation will change that.

I hope so. The future is bright.

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Post by protea438 on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 12:18 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
protea438 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:England nees to stop losing the crucial games.

A few tweaks to the team and we will dominate the world and win the next world cup.  I have said that on here before.

A few grand slams on the way.
English rugby is in good health....

I not so sure, Egland got bullied/

One thing England are best at is spending tons of money on consultants. Think they definitely need a motivational / head coach. Target the 2027 World Cup, players should have enough time to learn by then

Dont talk rubbish.

We have unrivalled talent coming through that are driven , huge and skilled.

World domination will come....


If the margin was 3 then yes, but it was 20 against a team where England just needed to pitch up. Something is wrong there

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