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Post by beninho on Wed 06 Nov 2019, 9:08 am

First topic message reminder :

Davie wrote:
super_realist wrote:
beninho wrote:https://officiating.worldrugby.org/?module=3&section=36&subsection=129&language=en

"It is not mandatory for the team receiving the challenge to face it."



How many effing times. If they don't face it up silently and respectfully they get massive media criticism.

No they don't!

This is getting crazy!

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Post by super_realist on Mon 13 Jan 2020, 7:48 am

dynamark wrote:We should all boycott Iranian barbers shops that show them,
An aside on the car manufacturing I had a couple of good mates who worked at Longbridge for Rover.
One of them (now sadly not with us) had the family name Minor(his dad worked there too) and guess what they gave him for a first name  --Morris ,Nice fella a decent golfer

You should boycott them anyway. That hilariously bad skin fade haircut which is seemingly the only haircut they can do in these "barbers" are the reserve of the chav and Leigh Griffiths.

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Post by super_realist on Mon 13 Jan 2020, 7:49 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
McLaren wrote:PS Navy, nice work on getting a PHD, if you don't mind telling us, what field is it in?
Biochemistry; 1993. On some bollox about gene expression in the rabbit mammary glad. I kid you not.

Are you an expert in bunny t1ts (sounds like an 80's grumble flick performer)?    
I was, but that was some time ago! Was a bit 'nits on the gnats nuts', as my former boss said.

pedro wrote:Funny how socialists try to re-label themselves as “progressives”. Socialism is probably the least progressive you can imagine.
You're wrong. What's happened is that the term 'socialist' has been very successfully conflated (by the right wing) with 'communist' or 'Marxist', primarily in the U.S., but also now, apparently, over here. 'Socialism' is almost a swear word in the U.S. and increasing so here. Branding anything 'socialist' as bad is just the sort of childish, absolutist, black/white level of intellect that we have to deal with now - not getting at you pedro with this last, more the general dumbing down of political discourse in the so-called advanced democracies.

We're a social species, but being social in outlook is somehow a bad thing? Stop the World, I want to get off.

I know what you mean, but it's hard to argue that Corbyn's version of socialism is something which would be desirable. In a UK sense that's what we mean we talk about how being a bad thing.

Funny how these Labour candidates are desperately trying to show how working class their backgrounds are, and failing badly. It's like a very bad version of the famous Monty Python sketch.
Tony Blair wasn't the peasant these people are trying to make themselves out to be, and the working class didn't hold that against him.

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Post by Be_the_ball on Mon 13 Jan 2020, 8:16 am

navyblueshorts wrote:

pedro wrote:Funny how socialists try to re-label themselves as “progressives”. Socialism is probably the least progressive you can imagine.
You're wrong. What's happened is that the term 'socialist' has been very successfully conflated (by the right wing) with 'communist' or 'Marxist', primarily in the U.S., but also now, apparently, over here. 'Socialism' is almost a swear word in the U.S. and increasing so here. Branding anything 'socialist' as bad is just the sort of childish, absolutist, black/white level of intellect that we have to deal with now - not getting at you pedro with this last, more the general dumbing down of political discourse in the so-called advanced democracies.

We're a social species, but being social in outlook is somehow a bad thing? Stop the World, I want to get off.

Exactly, and if you watch that clip the US caller derides socialism but you realise he's actually talking about the Stalinism of the USSR. Hitchens then explains the difference. Comparing UK socialism to the USSR or Venezuela is just plain wrong, there is no comparison. But hey, this is exactly the narrative that's been achieved in recent times.

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Post by super_realist on Mon 13 Jan 2020, 8:32 am

Be_the_ball wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:

pedro wrote:Funny how socialists try to re-label themselves as “progressives”. Socialism is probably the least progressive you can imagine.
You're wrong. What's happened is that the term 'socialist' has been very successfully conflated (by the right wing) with 'communist' or 'Marxist', primarily in the U.S., but also now, apparently, over here. 'Socialism' is almost a swear word in the U.S. and increasing so here. Branding anything 'socialist' as bad is just the sort of childish, absolutist, black/white level of intellect that we have to deal with now - not getting at you pedro with this last, more the general dumbing down of political discourse in the so-called advanced democracies.

We're a social species, but being social in outlook is somehow a bad thing? Stop the World, I want to get off.

Exactly, and if you watch that clip the US caller derides socialism but you realise he's actually talking about the Stalinism of the USSR. Hitchens then explains the difference. Comparing UK socialism to the USSR or Venezuela is just plain wrong, there is no comparison. But hey, this is exactly the narrative that's been achieved in recent times.

No one in the UK thinks that socialism in the UK is in any way comparable with the USSR, however Corbyn has praised Venezuela, but that's not the reason his version of socialism was totally rejected. It was rejected because it was transparently ridiculous.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Mon 13 Jan 2020, 9:40 am

super_realist wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
McLaren wrote:PS Navy, nice work on getting a PHD, if you don't mind telling us, what field is it in?
Biochemistry; 1993. On some bollox about gene expression in the rabbit mammary glad. I kid you not.

Are you an expert in bunny t1ts (sounds like an 80's grumble flick performer)?    
I was, but that was some time ago! Was a bit 'nits on the gnats nuts', as my former boss said.

pedro wrote:Funny how socialists try to re-label themselves as “progressives”. Socialism is probably the least progressive you can imagine.
You're wrong. What's happened is that the term 'socialist' has been very successfully conflated (by the right wing) with 'communist' or 'Marxist', primarily in the U.S., but also now, apparently, over here. 'Socialism' is almost a swear word in the U.S. and increasing so here. Branding anything 'socialist' as bad is just the sort of childish, absolutist, black/white level of intellect that we have to deal with now - not getting at you pedro with this last, more the general dumbing down of political discourse in the so-called advanced democracies.

We're a social species, but being social in outlook is somehow a bad thing? Stop the World, I want to get off.

I know what you mean, but it's hard to argue that Corbyn's version of socialism is something which would be desirable. In a UK sense that's what we mean we talk about how being a bad thing.

Funny how these Labour candidates are desperately trying to show how working class their backgrounds are, and failing badly. It's like a very bad version of the famous Monty Python sketch.
Tony Blair wasn't the peasant these people are trying to make themselves out to be, and the working class didn't hold that against him.
Laugh Good point. I doubt they're even aware of this either.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Mon 13 Jan 2020, 9:43 am

super_realist wrote:
Be_the_ball wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:

pedro wrote:Funny how socialists try to re-label themselves as “progressives”. Socialism is probably the least progressive you can imagine.
You're wrong. What's happened is that the term 'socialist' has been very successfully conflated (by the right wing) with 'communist' or 'Marxist', primarily in the U.S., but also now, apparently, over here. 'Socialism' is almost a swear word in the U.S. and increasing so here. Branding anything 'socialist' as bad is just the sort of childish, absolutist, black/white level of intellect that we have to deal with now - not getting at you pedro with this last, more the general dumbing down of political discourse in the so-called advanced democracies.

We're a social species, but being social in outlook is somehow a bad thing? Stop the World, I want to get off.

Exactly, and if you watch that clip the US caller derides socialism but you realise he's actually talking about the Stalinism of the USSR. Hitchens then explains the difference. Comparing UK socialism to the USSR or Venezuela is just plain wrong, there is no comparison. But hey, this is exactly the narrative that's been achieved in recent times.

No  one in the UK thinks that socialism in the UK is in any way comparable with the USSR, however Corbyn has praised Venezuela, but that's not the reason his version of socialism was totally rejected. It was rejected because it was transparently ridiculous.
I disagree. That's exactly what many now proclaim. They may not mention the Soviet model when they're ranting about 'socialism', but that's what they have in their heads. It's all a dumbing down of politics - you're either a Commy or a Nazi now, effectively. May not be everyone, but it's the large majority I reckon, and that's enough where elections are concerned.
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Post by super_realist on Mon 13 Jan 2020, 10:31 am

I haven't heard a single person in the UK on any media conflate Corbyn socialism with that implemented by the USSR other than blatant crackpots.
I've heard people say that Corbyn is a marxist, which he admits.

I do accept that the Fox media side of the USA makes that confusion with socialism and communism, but I don't see any evidence of that in the UK, primarily because they don't need to, Corbyns policies are laughable enough on their own without having to attach them to a failed governmental system. They stand on their own as ridiculous policies.

To claim that people see UK socialism as communism, is as far fetched as Mac seeing the UK right as racist, homophobic Nazis. I don't see it as a widespread belief , just a few vocal morons who aim to speak for the entire country, like the revolting Owen Jones or the insufferable Lily Allen do when calling the right nazis

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Post by navyblueshorts on Mon 13 Jan 2020, 2:01 pm

🤷 If you say so.
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Post by pedro on Mon 13 Jan 2020, 2:11 pm

Regardless, it's not "progressive".

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Post by McLaren on Mon 13 Jan 2020, 4:40 pm

pedro

Why are you so determined to say that socialism not progressive. Baring in mind that progressive when it comes to politics means "support for or advocacy of social reform".
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Post by navyblueshorts on Mon 13 Jan 2020, 4:51 pm

pedro wrote:Regardless, it's not "progressive".
Again, I don't agree, necessarily, with that. It would be easy to support a claim that 'socialism' leads to 'progressive' change/improvements in the 'social' aspects of society i.e. welfare, equality, poverty, employment (arguable), workers rights, environment etc etc.
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Post by super_realist on Mon 13 Jan 2020, 4:54 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
pedro wrote:Regardless, it's not "progressive".
Again, I don't agree, necessarily, with that. It would be easy to support a claim that 'socialism' leads to 'progressive' change/improvements in the 'social' aspects of society i.e. welfare, equality, poverty, employment (arguable), workers rights, environment etc etc.

If its so progressive why only do a half arsed piecemeal token gesture on so many things?
In regards to workers rights those have come more from Europe than Labour anyway.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Mon 13 Jan 2020, 4:54 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
pedro wrote:Regardless, it's not "progressive".
Again, I don't agree, necessarily, with that. It would be easy to support a claim that 'socialism' leads to 'progressive' change/improvements in the 'social' aspects of society i.e. welfare, equality, poverty, employment (arguable), workers rights, environment etc etc.

I wouldn't class Socialism to be progressive at all, the emphasis is on the word change rather than necessarily improvement. Telling people it's in their best interests doesn't make it so.

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Post by pedro on Mon 13 Jan 2020, 7:51 pm

“Progressive” is a positive word that has been hijacked by newspeakers on the left to re-brand socialism.

It mainly adresses (re-)distribution of wealth and size of government, but not how wealth is generated or how overall advancements or developments in society are achieved or stimulated. Hence the use of the word is manipulating, or misleading at best. And that’s my point.

Even if the idea of social reform or more government regulation is sympathtic enough, the irony is that undilluted “progressive” politics inevitably will lead to regression.

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Post by dynamark on Mon 13 Jan 2020, 8:58 pm

List of labour leaders is not very inspiring is it.
Interesting today a newspaper person on Politics today I think sunday times lived in Oz for 10years basically said that there are only certain areas of Australia that are suitable for habitation because of the dry weather and fires and the cites have been expanding out into the bush areas.Its normal but obviously extreme this time

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Post by Be_the_ball on Mon 13 Jan 2020, 11:58 pm

super_realist wrote:
Be_the_ball wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:

pedro wrote:Funny how socialists try to re-label themselves as “progressives”. Socialism is probably the least progressive you can imagine.
You're wrong. What's happened is that the term 'socialist' has been very successfully conflated (by the right wing) with 'communist' or 'Marxist', primarily in the U.S., but also now, apparently, over here. 'Socialism' is almost a swear word in the U.S. and increasing so here. Branding anything 'socialist' as bad is just the sort of childish, absolutist, black/white level of intellect that we have to deal with now - not getting at you pedro with this last, more the general dumbing down of political discourse in the so-called advanced democracies.

We're a social species, but being social in outlook is somehow a bad thing? Stop the World, I want to get off.

Exactly, and if you watch that clip the US caller derides socialism but you realise he's actually talking about the Stalinism of the USSR. Hitchens then explains the difference. Comparing UK socialism to the USSR or Venezuela is just plain wrong, there is no comparison. But hey, this is exactly the narrative that's been achieved in recent times.

No  one in the UK thinks that socialism in the UK is in any way comparable with the USSR, however Corbyn has praised Venezuela, but that's not the reason his version of socialism was totally rejected. It was rejected because it was transparently ridiculous.

Socialism = Corbyn
Corbyn = communism
Socialism = communism

"Recently while canvassing for Labour in Chingford, I met a middle-aged man who told me he could never vote for Labour because Jeremy Corbyn is a “communist” who plans to confiscate all the money of everyone earning over £50,000 and “throw it in a big pile.” He said Labour would probably take away all the houses and “nice cars” too, and that every footballer would leave the UK, as well as “every other skilled person.” I asked him where all these people would go, since many countries in Europe have similar, if not higher, level of taxation and state spending to what Labour is proposing. He suggested either America or Dubai.

These may sound like the words of an extremist, but he was a well-spoken man living in a large house in London. There were two “nice cars” in his drive. He said he worked in finance. He came across, in other words, as a fairly normal, well-educated middle-class man. While speaking to him, I realised how normalised this language of communist extremism has become during this election campaign."

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/from-broadband-communism-to-a-marxist-dystopia-how-labours-social-democratic-reforms-have-been-branded-as-hard-left-fantasies

"Since the election was called, some variation of the words “communist,” “Marxist,” “socialist,” “Lenin,”’ and “Stalin” have been used almost 2,400 times by the UK’s biggest newspapers."

read all about it -

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1200204/jeremy-corbyn-news-seumas-milne-labour-party-aide-socialism-communism-soviet-union-spt

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/11/06/russia-love-jeremy-corbyns-lifelong-affair-soviet-politics/

https://observer.com/2018/02/new-report-reveals-jeremy-corbyn-was-a-communist-spy-in-1980s/

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/04/09/dont-underestimate-corbyns-pet-stalinist/

https://standpointmag.co.uk/issues/february-2019/february-2019-features-giles-udy-jeremy-corbyn-britain-road-to-socialism/

At worst Corbyn could have been described as a 70's style socialist, but not a Soviet Communist. Here's a few examples.

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Post by super_realist on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 6:56 am

You canvassed for Labour? Why on earth would you do that? Did you actually believe in Corbyn's ridiculous policies and manifesto?
What a waste of time.

Judging by the newspaper reports (if they are to believed) it seems Corbyn was more of a sympathiser with old Russia than I realised, and you still canvassed for the moron?

Corbyn and McDonnel have identified as Marxists before, so what's the problem with reporting him as such?

Corbyn is a deeply unlikeable and unpopular person, and if there was no truth in the stories, why is it mentioned so often? Why hasn't he sued for libel if they aren't true?
I'm not saying it is true, but you have to raise an eyebrow at the amount of coverage and even Labour Party members and ex MP's urged people not to vote for Labour or Corbyn. Says a lot.

It's not as if people needed to smear Corbyn to stop Labour winning because it's not as if he was popular to begin with. He lost the election without any need from a campaign against him because he split the party and is a hopeless leader. Humourless man with no charisma. Terrible debater, terrible speaker and doesn't come across as genuine at all. Just another member of the Liberal elite pretending to be working class like all the people now clamouring for the job. Why would you canvass for such an out of touch party? Labour need the equivalent of a Ricky Gervais roasting at the Golden Globes to tell them some home truths because its clear they still don't get it.

The hard left of a Corbyn government is just as harmful an ideology as a hard right in my view. Regardless of what people claim, our current government isn't hard right in the way that Corbyn is hard left. We may have only just got the lesser of two evils, but only just. Not sure why anyone would vote or canvass for either party really, but that's up to you.

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Post by Be_the_ball on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 8:34 am

super_realist wrote:You canvassed for Labour? Why on earth would you do that? Did you actually believe in Corbyn's ridiculous policies and manifesto?
What a waste of time.

Judging by the newspaper reports (if they are to believed) it seems Corbyn was more of a sympathiser with old Russia than I realised, and you still canvassed for the moron?

Corbyn and McDonnel have identified as Marxists before, so what's the problem with reporting him as such?

Corbyn is a deeply unlikeable and unpopular person, and if there was no truth in the stories, why is it mentioned so often? Why hasn't he sued for libel if they aren't true?
I'm not saying it is true, but you have to raise an eyebrow at the amount of coverage and even Labour Party members and ex MP's urged people not to vote for Labour or Corbyn. Says a lot.

It's not as if people needed to smear Corbyn to stop Labour winning because it's not as if he was popular to begin with. He lost the election without any need from a campaign against him because he split the party and is a hopeless leader. Humourless man with no charisma. Terrible debater, terrible speaker and doesn't come across as genuine at all. Just another member of the Liberal elite pretending to be working class like all the people now clamouring for the job. Why would you canvass for such an out of touch party? Labour need the equivalent of a Ricky Gervais roasting at the Golden Globes to tell them some home truths because its clear they still don't get it.

The hard left of a Corbyn government is just as harmful an ideology as a hard right in my view. Regardless of what people claim, our current government isn't hard right in the way that Corbyn is hard left. We may have only just got the lesser of two evils, but only just. Not sure why anyone would vote or canvass for either party really, but that's up to you.

Haha, no I didn't canvass for Corbyn, that's a quote from the article I linked below where a voter is telling the canvassers that he equates Corbyn with Soviet communism. But what I said originally about socialism is not about Corbyn. I'm not pro Corbyn and can see why people ran a mile from him. He's essentially a back bencher that got chewed up on the front bench.

My point is that Socialism in the UK now IS being equated with Stalinism. Ordinary people seem to have adopted the US view of it. Which was never the reality of it in the UĶ. I have linked multiple examples where the UK publications and mainstream papers were doing it. You said no one in the UK did that, so I've given you examples of where they did. Personally I would be center left, but how you vote is none of my business. I'm making a point about what's happened in the UK in recent years where the US view of socialism has been adopted, while that was never the reality with the Labour movement in the UK.

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Post by super_realist on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 8:41 am

Ah, thank goodness. The way I read it it was as if you were canvassing.

I don't think that "in general" the UK conflates socialism with communism, but if anyone is to blame for the minority that do then it's Jeremy Corbyn being a swivel eyed crackpot giving the media ammunition to make such claims.

I think most people in the UK probably sway between centre left and centre right depending on the issue involved, so it seems sensible that we have two parties who operate on that level. Labour will be committing political suicide if they don't move back to the centre and if they elect Rebecca Long Bailey as leader.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 9:24 am

super_realist wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
pedro wrote:Regardless, it's not "progressive".
Again, I don't agree, necessarily, with that. It would be easy to support a claim that 'socialism' leads to 'progressive' change/improvements in the 'social' aspects of society i.e. welfare, equality, poverty, employment (arguable), workers rights, environment etc etc.

If its so progressive why only do a half arsed piecemeal token gesture on so many things?
In regards to workers rights those have come more from Europe than Labour anyway.
At least they're considering the issues. So you have a point re. workers rights, but I never claimed they were all internal (to the UK) changes and I guess those changes from Europe came from right wing parties, did they? Never mind. I'm not getting into a hair-splitting argument.

Soul Requiem wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
pedro wrote:Regardless, it's not "progressive".
Again, I don't agree, necessarily, with that. It would be easy to support a claim that 'socialism' leads to 'progressive' change/improvements in the 'social' aspects of society i.e. welfare, equality, poverty, employment (arguable), workers rights, environment etc etc.

I wouldn't class Socialism to be progressive at all, the emphasis is on the word change rather than necessarily improvement. Telling people it's in their best interests doesn't make it so.
Maybe. However, perhaps you could explain to me how the above categories are improved for all, both in practice and as philosophical principles, by the political right?
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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 9:27 am

pedro wrote:“Progressive” is a positive word that has been hijacked by newspeakers on the left to re-brand socialism.

It mainly adresses (re-)distribution of wealth and size of government, but not how wealth is generated or how overall advancements or developments in society are achieved or stimulated. Hence the use of the word is manipulating, or misleading at best. And that’s my point.

Even if the idea of social reform or more government regulation is sympathtic enough, the irony is that undilluted “progressive” politics inevitably will lead to regression.
Nice spin. It only fits if you equate socialism w/ the more extreme leftist forms of such. Apparently that doesn't happen in anybodies minds though. FWIW, that's not what I equate w/ socialism/socialist policies. I'd suggest the right equated socialism w/ communism far before your leftish MSM 're-branding'. In fact, given the preponderance of right wing media, I wonder how you explain your thesis?
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Post by super_realist on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 9:31 am

The question is not to compare the left to the right but to determine whether the left are progressive. That was the question.
Mac claimed the left were "progressive", we don't answer that by bringing up the right.
Is Labour progressive? On some things they might well be, on others they certainly aren't aren't, same for all parties.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 9:38 am

super_realist wrote:The question is not to compare the left to the right but to determine whether the left are progressive. That was the question.
Mac claimed the left were "progressive", we don't answer that by bringing up the right.
Is Labour progressive? On some things they might well be, on others they certainly aren't aren't, same for all parties.
Fair points, but to criticise whataboutery of someone else made me smile. FWIW, I'm not talking about the current iteration of U.K.'s Labour party, but about 'socialism', in general.
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Post by super_realist on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 9:49 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
super_realist wrote:The question is not to compare the left to the right but to determine whether the left are progressive. That was the question.
Mac claimed the left were "progressive", we don't answer that by bringing up the right.
Is Labour progressive? On some things they might well be, on others they certainly aren't aren't, same for all parties.
Fair points, but to criticise whataboutery of someone else made me smile. FWIW, I'm not talking about the current iteration of U.K.'s Labour party, but about 'socialism', in general.

Probably the same as every political system. Good points and bad points.
The question is do the good points outweigh the bad? People clearly aren't convinced it does, certainly not when it's the extreme crackpot socialism of Corbyn, which might not be communism, but it's certainly mad.

I think one of the reasons that socialism in the true sense doesn't work or wouldn't work in the UK is related to the British attitude, work ethic, blame culture, lack of ambition, whining millennials etc.  Small elements of socialism work in other countries, but I think we as a population are simply too different to make it work here in the same way.

It's too simplistic to state that elements of it work in Scandinavia, so it ought to work here. It's not that simple.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 11:26 am

navyblueshorts wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
pedro wrote:Regardless, it's not "progressive".
Again, I don't agree, necessarily, with that. It would be easy to support a claim that 'socialism' leads to 'progressive' change/improvements in the 'social' aspects of society i.e. welfare, equality, poverty, employment (arguable), workers rights, environment etc etc.

I wouldn't class Socialism to be progressive at all, the emphasis is on the word change rather than necessarily improvement. Telling people it's in their best interests doesn't make it so.
Maybe. However, perhaps you could explain to me how the above categories are improved for all, both in practice and as philosophical principles, by the political right?

I'm not suggesting that the above are improved by the right, throwing money about however is not progressive.

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Post by pedro on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 11:51 am

When you say you are “progressive”, you imply that what you stand for is something positive. Period. The use of the word just appears patronising.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 12:54 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
pedro wrote:Regardless, it's not "progressive".
Again, I don't agree, necessarily, with that. It would be easy to support a claim that 'socialism' leads to 'progressive' change/improvements in the 'social' aspects of society i.e. welfare, equality, poverty, employment (arguable), workers rights, environment etc etc.

I wouldn't class Socialism to be progressive at all, the emphasis is on the word change rather than necessarily improvement. Telling people it's in their best interests doesn't make it so.
Maybe. However, perhaps you could explain to me how the above categories are improved for all, both in practice and as philosophical principles, by the political right?

I'm not suggesting that the above are improved by the right, throwing money about however is not progressive.

pedro wrote:When you say you are “progressive”, you imply that what you stand for is something positive. Period. The use of the word just appears patronising.
Agree with both of these.

If there's one thing I increasingly hate, it's the presumed moral superiority of Brexit 'remainers', Socialists, cyclists, Vegans, Atheists (and I am one) etc etc, usually coupled w/ lashings of hypocrisy.
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Post by kwinigolfer on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 1:05 pm

pedro wrote:When you say you are “progressive”, you imply that what you stand for is something positive. Period. The use of the word just appears patronising.


Bernie pretty much invented the term as a political handle in the US; Mayor here almost forty years ago and "Progressive" Mayors for most of the time since (even though he calls himself a Socialist now - which he isn't).
In VT "progressive" has come to mean loads of politically correct ideas with no idea as to how to pay for them. Bunch of hypocrites, and you're right pedro, used in a patronising way.


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Post by super_realist on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 1:06 pm

Vegans and Environmental Cult members have to be the absolute worst though.

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Post by JAS on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 1:34 pm

super_realist wrote:Vegans and Environmental Cult members have to be the absolute worst though.

Nah, unattached judgementalists are the worst.

Technically I’m a vegan at the moment, rather than taking anyone else’s word for it I’m trying myself to see if it actually makes a difference, purely from a nutritional perspective. I have no time for moral vegans.

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Post by super_realist on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 1:38 pm

JAS wrote:
super_realist wrote:Vegans and Environmental Cult members have to be the absolute worst though.

Nah, unattached judgementalists are the worst.

Technically I’m a vegan at the moment, rather than taking anyone else’s word for it I’m trying myself to see if it actually makes a difference, purely from a nutritional perspective. I have no time for moral vegans.

Sorry, I mean the militant vegans that you refer to, the type who try to get it seen as a belief system or ideology. It's just a diet. I'm effectively a vegetarian but for health reasons (occasionally eating meat), but I simply don't care if someone wants to eat whatever they like as long as they don't blame anyone else for the results of it.

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Post by McLaren on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 2:09 pm

Never picked up on the patronising vibe of being called a progressive, in fact I will happily be considered a progressive.


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Post by JAS on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 2:10 pm

super_realist wrote:
JAS wrote:
super_realist wrote:Vegans and Environmental Cult members have to be the absolute worst though.

Nah, unattached judgementalists are the worst.

Technically I’m a vegan at the moment, rather than taking anyone else’s word for it I’m trying myself to see if it actually makes a difference, purely from a nutritional perspective. I have no time for moral vegans.

Sorry, I mean the militant vegans that you refer to, the type who try to get it seen as a belief system or ideology. It's just a diet. I'm effectively a vegetarian but for health reasons (occasionally eating meat), but I simply don't care if someone wants to eat whatever they like as long as they don't blame anyone else for the results of it.

Indeed, and there are some pretty decent arguments in favour of predominantly plant based nutrition but we are all different, I don’t intend going total vegan, I like meat too much. What happened was I watched the docufilm The Game Changers and there was enough in there to make me think...”wonder how I’d respond to a plant based diet?” So I’ve put myself on a month long experiment. Got to say 10 days in (Never started until I got back from Canada) and I’m feeling it, got an initial drop of 6lb 1st week and already feel like I have a lot more energy - that may be a bit of a placebo effect, time will tell.
Regarding the moral element, I spent a lot of my younger years killing trout, salmon, rabbits & hares so I have no sense of outrage or guilt about killing animals for food. To be honest the preaching of the militant Vegans masks the fact that there is a very good nutritional argument underneath.

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Post by super_realist on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 2:31 pm

A bit like moronic groups like XR damaging the message behind climate change.

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Post by dynamark on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 3:38 pm

Don't see much of XR when its cold wet and windy do we.

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Post by super_realist on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 3:42 pm

dynamark wrote:Don't see much of XR when its cold wet and windy do we.

They're in Edinburgh today, but there's about 6 of them.

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Post by I'm never wrong on Wed 15 Jan 2020, 6:58 am

Well, well, well. The mighty Shrewsbury Town beat Bristol city in an FA Cup replay and are rewarded with Liverpool at home. And on BBC. Just looked at the highlights and they seemed to deserve it. Tune in at 5pm on the 26th January to see a major cup upset. laughing

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Post by super_realist on Wed 15 Jan 2020, 7:39 am

I'm never wrong wrote:Well, well, well. The mighty Shrewsbury Town beat Bristol city in an FA Cup replay and are rewarded with Liverpool at home. And on BBC. Just looked at the highlights and they seemed to deserve it. Tune in at 5pm on the 26th January to see a major cup upset. laughing

More chance of Harry and Meghan not behaving like entitled brats.

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Post by Roller_Coaster on Wed 15 Jan 2020, 9:08 am

McLaren wrote:Never picked up on the patronising vibe of being called a progressive, in fact I will happily be considered a progressive.

Oh, how very progressive of you.

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Post by dynamark on Wed 15 Jan 2020, 9:32 am

Do shrewsbury still play at the gay meadow or did they move ,seem to remember it getting flooded .
Just amused by the wildlife lobby on BBC reporting from a nature reserve close to the HS2 rout(that's another dedate) The line will run along the line of an existing little used line on the edge of the nature area not through the middle of the lake which was the impression given by the lovely BBC pics of birdlife.The lake was presumable previously a sand/gravel pit and as they were standing in the wood discussing the great crested newts there was old overgrown railway bridge in the background ! so the railway was there first.Lazy stuff

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Post by super_realist on Wed 15 Jan 2020, 9:45 am

Lazy journalism can be put on the list of annoying things.

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Post by I'm never wrong on Wed 15 Jan 2020, 10:41 am

dynamark wrote:Do shrewsbury still play at the gay meadow or did they move ,seem to remember it getting flooded
Shrewsbury used to play at the Gay Meadow which was right in the centre of the town next to The English Bridge over the River Severn. There is now a housing estate there. STFC moved to the south side of the town to "The New Meadow" or as it is technically known "The Montgomery Waters Meadow". The old ground did used to get flooded as it was adjacent to the River Severn, and they used to have an employee who fetched balls kicked into the river by using a coracle.

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Post by super_realist on Wed 15 Jan 2020, 10:46 am

I'm never wrong wrote:
dynamark wrote:Do shrewsbury still play at the gay meadow or did they move ,seem to remember it getting flooded
Shrewsbury used to play at the Gay Meadow which was right in the centre of the town next to The English Bridge over the River Severn. There is now a housing estate there. STFC moved to the south side of the town to "The New Meadow" or as it is technically known "The Montgomery Waters Meadow". The old ground did used to get flooded as it was adjacent to the River Severn, and they used to have an employee who fetched balls kicked into the river by using a coracle.

They had to move because Mac deemed the name Gay Meadow to be homophobic and offensive to homosexuals.

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Post by dynamark on Wed 15 Jan 2020, 11:16 am

Gay means happy in old English .
Just thinking imagine how much wildlife thrives on railway embankments and cuttings.

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Post by super_realist on Wed 15 Jan 2020, 11:30 am

It's also the Midlands and the South it is connecting, hardly the Galapogas.

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Post by super_realist on Wed 15 Jan 2020, 11:50 am

What is wrong with people? The family of the kid that died after being hit by the American diplomats wife are said to be "outraged" that Boris Johnson has said the chance of extradition are "very low".
Who didn't know this? Would they rather he lied and said she'd be here by the morning? Of course its hard to lose anyone, let alone in this manner, but I really don't see anything wrong with stating that the chances of a successful extradition were always going to be slim. Seemed pretty obvious rather than "outrageous" as they claim his comments to be.


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Post by JAS on Wed 15 Jan 2020, 11:56 am

super_realist wrote:It's also the Midlands and the South it is connecting, hardly the Galapogas.

Speaking of connecting in a transport sense, with the Flybe attempted rescue we can see that actually, this government might not be as ultra free market libertarian as I originally feared. I know Johnson tries to sell himself as a one nation Tory to the electorate and something very different to the ERG. Hands up I held the view that he was more aligned to the ERG and the whole one nation thing was a blatant lie...well maybe not after all.

Having said all that, not sure that pumping govt money into Flybe is the way to go, if they’re in trouble, they’re in trouble for a reason. Interesting to note that reducing or scrapping APD is on the agenda.

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Post by super_realist on Wed 15 Jan 2020, 12:01 pm

I've used Flybe quite a bit and found them to be adequate. I'm not in favour of the government funding failing businesses, especially when governmental record in transport is so poor, but it does help keep open some useful travel routes which is good for the country and it will also enrage hypocritical environmental pressure groups too and that's priceless.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Wed 15 Jan 2020, 12:06 pm

Johnson has always been blatantly a one nation Tory, too many people think Brexit is the only subject to judge him on.

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Post by JAS on Wed 15 Jan 2020, 12:37 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:Johnson has always been blatantly a one nation Tory, too many people think Brexit is the only subject to judge him on.

Given that his majority largely came from convincingly repeating ad-infinitum “Let’s Get Brexit Done” whilst the other parties were saying “we will reverse Brexit” and “let’s drag it out some more because we need to get it right, once we’ve done that we’ll ask you again what you really really want” then yes, it’s not unreasonable to judge him on it at the expense of most other things because basically the campaign strategy of the Tories was to make the election predominately about a single issue.

That being said I freely admit to initially misjudging his left/right compass, notoriously difficult to judge a serial liar but hey ho.

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