England's Winter

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 05 Jan 2020, 2:14 pm

As per LT's original post:
New Zealand

T20 Internationals

Friday November 1st - Christchurch
Sunday November 3rd - Wellington
Tuesday November 5th - Nelson
Friday November 8th - Napier
Sunday November 10th - Auckland

Squad
Eoin Morgan (Middlesex) captain
Jonny Bairstow (Yorkshire)
Tom Banton (Somerset)
Sam Billings (Kent)
Pat Brown (Worcestershire)
Sam Curran (Surrey)
Tom Curran (Surrey)
Joe Denly (Kent)
Lewis Gregory (Somerset)
Chris Jordan (Sussex)
Saqib Mahmood (Lancashire)
Dawid Malan (Middlesex)
Matt Parkinson (Lancashire)
Adil Rashid (Yorkshire)
James Vince (Hampshire)


Tests

Wednesday November 20th - Tauranga
Thursday November 28th - Hamilton

Squad
Joe Root (Yorkshire) captain
Jofra Archer (Sussex)
Stuart Broad (Nottinghamshire)
Rory Burns (Surrey)
Jos Buttler (Lancashire)
Zak Crawley (Kent)
Sam Curran (Surrey)
Joe Denly (Kent)
Jack Leach (Somerset)
Saqib Mahmood (Lancashire)
Matthew Parkinson (Lancashire)
Ollie Pope (Surrey)
Dominic Sibley (Warwickshire)
Ben Stokes (Durham)
Chris Woakes (Warwickshire)



South Africa

Tests

Thursday 26th December - Centurion
Friday January 3rd - Cape Town
Thursday January 16th - Port Elizabeth
Friday January 24th - Johannesburg

Squad
Ill


ODI
Tuesday 4th February - Cape Town
Friday 7th February - Durban
Sunday 9th February - Johannesburg

Squad
Ill

T20 Internationals

Wednesday 12th February - East London
Friday 14th February - Durban
Sunday 16th February - Centurion


Sri Lanka

March 7th - Warm up 1, Katunayake (3 day)
March 12th - Warm up 2, Colombo (3 day)
March 19th - 1st Test, Galle
March 27th - 2nd Test, Colombo

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Post by king_carlos on Sun 05 Jan 2020, 2:45 pm

The field to Root is innovative here. Quinton de Kock up to the stumps to pin him to the crease then the man at silly mid on to allow Pretorious to bowl straight with a deterrent to make Root think twice about driving down the ground. Fun little battle to watch.

Root is batting well though and Sibley is growing into his innings.

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Post by Gooseberry on Sun 05 Jan 2020, 2:47 pm

England surely cant blow this position now.

(Remebers its England)

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Sun 05 Jan 2020, 3:00 pm

I’d be happy with these two getting all the runs and no one else scoring. These two are the most important two in terms of getting a score for their confidence.

Sibley could give himself grounds to settle in for a few tests if he gets a decent knock on this, whilst Root needs runs. A win and some runs would do a lot for him.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Sun 05 Jan 2020, 3:41 pm

From the Beeb:

Some Rory Burns news. He’s seeing the specialist next week to determine if he needs surgery. Until then England say they don’t know how long he’ll be out for. But I understand he is likely to miss the Sri Lanka tour with Keaton Jennings the front runner to replace him for that tour. England still haven’t decided whether to replace Burns in South Africa. National selector Ed Smith has arrived in Cape Town and will discuss with Chris Silverwood.

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Post by Gooseberry on Sun 05 Jan 2020, 3:47 pm

Jennings did pretty well on the last tour there didn't he? Still feels like a retrograde short term pick and again screams that even the England leadership that selected him dont think Crawley is up to actually playing in tests yet.

Sibley and Root have surely now put England into a winning position in this one. Huge from England, I'm very impressed.

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 05 Jan 2020, 3:49 pm

Big lead this. Nice for England to have a dominant day on foreign turf as it’s quite a rare occurrence.

Only danger now is Root forgets to declare and South Africa manage a draw.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sun 05 Jan 2020, 3:55 pm

Calling up Jennings would make sense for Sri Lanka - he has a good record in the subcontinent and is a superb short leg fielder which is crucial there. Doesn’t say anything about Crawley, it’d be horses for courses - which is what they will be doing with the bowlers...(for some reason doing it with batsmen is seen as weird)
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Post by king_carlos on Sun 05 Jan 2020, 3:57 pm

Another unconverted 50 for Root but he added the impetus and runs his team needed.

Hopefully Sibley can go onto his hundred early in the morning tomorrow.

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Post by Gooseberry on Sun 05 Jan 2020, 4:04 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Calling up Jennings would make sense for Sri Lanka - he has a good record in the subcontinent and is a superb short leg fielder which is crucial there. Doesn’t say anything about Crawley, it’d be horses for courses - which is what they will be doing with the bowlers...(for some reason doing it with batsmen is seen as weird)

Not sure its seem as weird so much as theyve dropped Jennings twice for not being good enough and bought Crawley on two tours despite him not being ready. It really smacks of the same muddled thinking and flip flopping that typified the Bayliss era.

In terms of bowlers the big questions will be around spinners...is Leach going to be well, is Rashids shoulder up contests and do they trust a guy who hasn't bowled red since the last Sti Lanka tour ( I think? Did he play any CC last summer?) ...and then is Mo ready to come back?
Last time they went with a strong spin trio, this time it could be
...Bess....

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Post by guildfordbat on Sun 05 Jan 2020, 4:17 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Calling up Jennings would make sense for Sri Lanka - he has a good record in the subcontinent and is a superb short leg fielder which is crucial there. Doesn’t say anything about Crawley, it’d be horses for courses - which is what they will be doing with the bowlers...(for some reason doing it with batsmen is seen as weird)

Yeah, I don't think it would even say much about Crawley if Jennings was called up for the remainder of the South Africa tour. Whilst I expect Crawley to open with Sibley in the next Test and probably the last one as well, we could do with an extra option if either pick up an injury.

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Post by guildfordbat on Sun 05 Jan 2020, 4:32 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
alfie wrote:Unable to follow up that wicket...SA 185/4 at drinks and England need de Kock and another before the new ball , I think.

Criticize the England batting , fair enough : but the main difference between the teams has been that SA had five bowlers all on song ...England have had three.   Just not quite the same sustained pressure.

Way to go yet as SA may not enjoy batting last. But England need to wrap this innings sooner rather than later or their main bowlers will be cooked...

Wow! Went out at this point and just back to see the end of day score. Much, much better than I dared hope.

The 35 put on by his Holiness and Jimmy for the 10th wicket looking especially valuable.

I believe they call tomorrow “moving day” Guildford...Smile

Well, it sure was, Olly.  Wink

Disappointing to lose two late wickets - Root really, my views on nightwatchmen are well rehearsed - but the day clearly belonged to England.

As a bonus for you, Olly, I'll flag that South Africa will almost certainly need to score the highest innings score of the match in the fourth dig which is never easy. Smile

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 05 Jan 2020, 5:01 pm

South Africa essentially need to take the final six wickets in the opening hour and a bit tomorrow to have any chance. They’ll have a new ball to boost their chances of making that happen.

Pitch isn’t doing loads, but you get the odd ball that misbehaves or keeps low which augurs well for England. That and the overall weakness of the South African batting order.

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Post by VTR on Sun 05 Jan 2020, 8:57 pm

Another good day, quite a turnaround after what was still a pretty poor first innings effort. If Sibley can nail down a spot, Burns, Sibley, Denly is not a terrifying top three, but all we want is to stop being 40-3 every time, which was the problem for about the last 5 years. At least the above seems like they can all dig in and tire out the bowlers

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Post by alfie on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 6:18 am

Not the most dramatic day's play , was it ? Apart from the instant wicket at the start (Jimmy is starting to specialize in first ball of the day strikes) nothing happened too fast :  it was England slowly but surely moving into a strong position...not quite impregnable yet but you'd fancy their chances from here...
Though SA might have got their tactics a bit wrong .  The patient wearing down of the bats that worked for both teams on the first two days was negated by the slowed up pitch ...and it looked to me that Faf got too worried about leaking runs too early - when he should have been going harder at the inexperienced England openers. Later on all that rather negative stuff from Maharaj didn't really achieve anything.  I think trailing by 50 like that seemed to take the wind out of their sails a bit and the bowling didn't look near as good as day one.

Take nothing away from the much-maligned England bats though. Sibley might not exactly have Dom-inated the bowling ; but he channelled his inner Tavare pretty well (I didn't stay up after tea so missed the apparent acceleration  Smile )  and whether he goes on tonight or not he's done his job.  And I liked Crawley's effort even though it didn't last all that long ,  as his positive play helped to put a bit of pressure on to the bowlers from the off (see comment above re SA starting early to look to save runs ) Had England poked about for fifteen off ten at the start things might have gone differently , perhaps ?  Denly did what Denly does , and Root looked lively from the start - and seems to have kept it up in the last session.  Night watchman might have been overdoing it but I'd rather have lost Bess last night than Stokes...

Nearly at the Guildford Tipping Point as regards fourth innings , so SA will be rather desperate for a quick wrap up tonight - and I guess an England collapse against a new ball and rested bowlers isn't out of the question. But you'd imagine they must set north of 300 at least (really ought to be 350 but I take nothing for granted) and that will surely prove a tough chase - even if the two old boys find repeating their first innings work a bit harder this time : at least they've had a day to put their feet up for once !

Weather set fair I think ? Road map suggests a declaration shortly after lunch but as I say , we will wait and see...

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Post by alfie on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 8:42 am

Has the swine flu hit SA now ? Apparently Nortje is sick and not taken the field this morning...and SA have therefore not yet taken the new ball.
Bit of a blow for them. Guess they're hoping Maharaj can do something while keeping Philander and Rabada on ice for a bit.

Stokes won't be sitting around , I think.


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Post by Duty281 on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 9:06 am

South Africa have surrendered and Stokes is throwing the bat.

Just the declaration question to ponder now.

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Post by king_carlos on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 9:10 am

Stokes and Sibley are playing different sports here. I really don't mind that though in this situation. Stokes, Pope, Buttler and Curran can all score very quickly. Sibley can anchor from one end.

If England quickly get the lead up towards 350 then Sibley will need to step on the gas for a final few overs before the declaration.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 9:14 am

Were Sibley not so close to his maiden test century he may have gone a bit more aggressive by now but fully understandable in the circumstances.

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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 9:17 am

Neithers a problem and both are playing their own games I guess. very close to that 300 lead now which puts the game as close to safe as it needs to be and bags of time to play with. They may even have the incredibly rare luxury of declaring an innings. 

Given that England looked in trouble during day 2 of this test its been a very strong turn around.

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Post by alfie on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 9:19 am

350 lead won't take long with Stokes in this mood. Reset for 400.

Sibley has faced 38 balls today for ten...Stokes 32 - for 48. Good combination thumbsup

SA just waiting for the declaration

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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 9:20 am

Denly must hate Stokes  Laugh

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Post by alfie on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 9:22 am

Fifty for Ben clap

Just 34 balls. At this rate he might beat Sibley to the hundred Smile

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 9:28 am

Well done Sibley.

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Post by alfie on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 9:30 am

Well played Dom Sibley clap

Hundred up ...looks pretty happy . As do the dressing room.

Big role in putting England into a strong position. Thought the pitch is looking pretty sleepy right now so more runs probably required ...and I think they will come quite quickly...

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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 9:40 am

70 off 43 balls now in this innings for Stokes ..Denly scored 69 runs off 241 balls in the game.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 9:44 am

I'd argue those 241 balls that Denly faced are more important than the runs Stokes is currently making.

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Post by alfie on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 9:46 am

Stokes gone ...would have been nice for him to get a hundred but he's a real team player and was only interested in hammering everything. Top knock clap

Pope in : should think he will play freely as they probably only want to bat a little after lunch at most. Won't be matching Stokes I think !

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Post by alfie on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 9:55 am

Short stay for Pope. Though in truth this situation might suit Buttler more anyway ...


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Post by guildfordbat on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 10:06 am

Hi Alfie and all - yep, I would bat for 10 to 15 minutes after lunch and then declare. I think the runs are more important for demoralising the hosts than the target which should be high enough already (380 now). Carrying on a bit after lunch also gives the chance of wear and tear to the pitch as well as denying South Africa's openers the chance to properly regroup and plan. Keep 'em waiting, keep 'em wondering. That would still leave around 150 overs in the match.

Great credit to Sibley for holding it all together and reaching a deserved maiden ton at this level. Similarly, to Stokes for the selfless energy he brought - the ying to Sibley's yang.


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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 10:08 am

Soul Requiem wrote:I'd argue those 241 balls that Denly faced are more important than the runs Stokes is currently making.


Its a fair comment but people had a go at him first innings for not scoring enough and being bogged down for England no t making more. 

Stokes' first innings dig was also very important in getting England to a score thats turned out to be a lot better than we thought at the time, hes had a very fine match with the bat anyway. 

Certainly the runs being scored now are all a bit academic, England have enough of a lead that it would be hugely embarrassing for them not to win. That Stokes scored his contribution them so quickly is only really of value to his own ego and confidence...but its still a remarkable (I remarked on it) difference in rates players have got their runs at in this innings. 

Perhaps does show that both sides really should have made a lot more in their first innings.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 10:09 am

Dom Sibley, slog-sweeping for six

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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 10:12 am

guildfordbat wrote:Hi Alfie and all - yep, I would bat for 10 to 15 minutes after lunch and then declare. I think the runs are more important for demoralising the hosts than the target which should be high enough already (380 now). Carrying on a bit after lunch also gives the chance of wear and tear to the pitch as well as denying South Africa's openers the chance to properly regroup and plan. Keep 'em waiting, keep 'em wondering. That would still leave around 150 overs in the match.

Great credit to Sibley for holding it all together and reaching a deserved maiden ton at this level. Similarly, to Stokes for the selfless energy he brought - the ying to Sibley's yang.


I reckon they will let the innings run as long as Sibley is still in unless it gets really ridiculous and hes there after tea. Ultimately theres lots and lots of time left, Stokes didnt need to score that quickly to ensure a victory position. If England font back themselves to bowl SA out in 120 overs of a 4th innings then they shouldn't have bothered coming here at all. 150 would be overkill and if SA could survive theyd likely have enough wins to run with time left over.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 10:14 am

This innings shows the importance of the top order setting a good platform, grind the bowlers down and then leave the middle order to create carnage.

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Post by guildfordbat on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 10:26 am

Gooseberry wrote:
...
Perhaps does show that both sides really should have made a lot more in their first innings.

Yes they should have done although have to temper that with saying both sides bowled well first digs. I don't think South Africa have been too clever with the ball in England's current innings. Maharaj,in particular, impressed me on day one doing his role so well in keeping it dry but hasn't been so tight or much of a threat now. It'll be interesting to see how Bess - who also bowled well first up - gets on today and tomorrow.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 10:29 am

guildfordbat wrote:Hi Alfie and all - yep, I would bat for 10 to 15 minutes after lunch and then declare. I think the runs are more important for demoralising the hosts than the target which should be high enough already (380 now). Carrying on a bit after lunch also gives the chance of wear and tear to the pitch as well as denying South Africa's openers the chance to properly regroup and plan. Keep 'em waiting, keep 'em wondering. That would still leave around 150 overs in the match.

Great credit to Sibley for holding it all together and reaching a deserved maiden ton at this level. Similarly, to Stokes for the selfless energy he brought - the ying to Sibley's yang.

I believe with the “don’t declare during an interval” post we have now completed Guildford bingo for this game Smile
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Post by dummy_half on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 10:43 am

157 runs in a 27 over morning session - probably didn't need to be that explosive in the context of England winning the match, but it has surely put the game beyond SA and opened up the possibility of a declaration soon after lunch rather than around tea.

Declaration in another 20 to 30 minutes or the fall of the next wicket - no point now in sending Broad out with a bat, unlike a few years ago where he would happily blast away for a quick 30 or so.

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Post by guildfordbat on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 10:44 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:Hi Alfie and all - yep, I would bat for 10 to 15 minutes after lunch and then declare. I think the runs are more important for demoralising the hosts than the target which should be high enough already (380 now). Carrying on a bit after lunch also gives the chance of wear and tear to the pitch as well as denying South Africa's openers the chance to properly regroup and plan. Keep 'em waiting, keep 'em wondering. That would still leave around 150 overs in the match.

Great credit to Sibley for holding it all together and reaching a deserved maiden ton at this level. Similarly, to Stokes for the selfless energy he brought - the ying to Sibley's yang.

I believe with the “don’t declare during an interval” post we have now completed Guildford bingo for this game Smile

You have indeed, Olly - well done! I assume you marked your card as well with my ''nightwatchman grumble'' last night. Let me know what CC match at the Oval you want to attend this summer. Smile

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 10:44 am

Don’t want the bowlers standing out there too long with him, concentration is draining. Sam can go swing, get as many on the board as quickly as possible

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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 10:50 am

Chuffed to bits for Sibley, theres a lot of pressure on Englands top 3 with Crawley being so young, Denly so Denly, and himself having really struggled in his previous tests. 

Think hes answered a few of the questions now, whilst not being expansive by any means hes shown a wider range of scoring options to go with his dogged determination to prize his wicket and the concentration to go on a make what should be a match winning contribution. 

Big boost for him to feel secure for the winter and hopefully continue with this slightly more relaxed style. At 24 hes still got plenty of potential to keep growing as a player and could serve England for a decade.

How long after lunch do they leave it? I still think they will want to let Sibley build on this innings while he can and enjoy it, but maybe if Curran goes they wont want to risk Anderson or Broad getting hit on the finger. So likely declaration at the next wicket.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 11:08 am

Still very early days but England finally seem to be getting a decent top six at last just need to find a better number three. Sibley and Burns are proper openers, neither are going to win prizes for aesthetic play but runs and time are the most important thing at the top; Root is regaining form slowly but surely, Stokes is just getting better and better, Pope looks like he's got some real talent and Buttler if used as a pinch hitter is a capable number seven.

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Post by alfie on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 11:24 am

Soul Requiem wrote:Still very early days but England finally seem to be getting a decent top six at last just need to find a better number three. Sibley and Burns are proper openers, neither are going to win prizes for aesthetic play but runs and time are the most important thing at the top; Root is regaining form slowly but surely, Stokes is just getting better and better, Pope looks like he's got some real talent and Buttler if used as a pinch hitter is a capable number seven.

I'm not going to go overboard about one good second innings against a team you've just bowled out with a surprise lead ! Not the same pressure as they've been folding under recently.

Some promising stuff ; but let's not get carried away.

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Post by alfie on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 11:26 am

dummy_half wrote:157 runs in a 27 over morning session - probably didn't need to be that explosive in the context of England winning the match, but it has surely put the game beyond SA and opened up the possibility of a declaration soon after lunch rather than around tea.

Declaration in another 20 to 30 minutes or the fall of the next wicket - no point now in sending Broad out with a bat, unlike a few years ago where he would happily blast away for a quick 30 or so.

But Broad is indeed out there ...don't think they'll go much longer though.  I'm with guildford on the declaration timing.  450 lead or next wicket...

Edit : Sooner , perhaps , I think...don't want Broad to get cleaned up with a bouncer...


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Post by Afro on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 11:28 am

Think you are. Its imminent.

Jimmy not padded up and now they have just shown the rest of the players in their whites
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England's Winter Empty Re: England's Winter

Post by Duty281 on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 11:35 am

So 438 to get off 145 overs. If South Africa get through the new ball burst they could make it tough for England, but if Anderson and Broad bowl as they did in the first innings it should be an easy ride for the tourists.

Bess could have an important role to play.

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England's Winter Empty Re: England's Winter

Post by alfie on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 11:35 am

There it is...lead 437..

Sibley 133 unconquered thumbsup

Best part of five sessions to bowl SA out. Really should be enough but they might have to work a bit if they don't get early scalps. Will be interesting to see how Bess bowls this time...

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England's Winter Empty Re: England's Winter

Post by Gooseberry on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 11:40 am

alfie wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:Still very early days but England finally seem to be getting a decent top six at last just need to find a better number three. Sibley and Burns are proper openers, neither are going to win prizes for aesthetic play but runs and time are the most important thing at the top; Root is regaining form slowly but surely, Stokes is just getting better and better, Pope looks like he's got some real talent and Buttler if used as a pinch hitter is a capable number seven.

I'm not going to go overboard about one good second innings against a team you've just bowled out with a surprise lead !  Not the same pressure as they've been folding under recently.

Some promising stuff ; but let's not get carried away.

The pessimists view would be Sibley and Burns still both average mid 30's in tests, and we dont now when Burns will be able to play again and how much the surgery will affect him. Crawley is just plain not ready for tests, and Denly whilst hes held England together in a real lowpoint isnt really a test class batsman. Root still cant score centuries and isnt the force he once was in consistently making 50. Stokes did have a strong 2019 and looks to be continuing that but ultimately is an allrounder who averages 35 in tests, and asking him to bat and bowl in 3 formats is getting too much for his body. Popes a great prospect, Id like to see him step up to 5 once hes settled and may well find himself forced to take on the defence against the dark arts job at 3 again down the line ...Denlys no spring chicken, will he hack it there or is he going to be Ian Bell 2 ( to be fair even the harshest Bell critics would've taken him back for England recently). Buttlers been poor with the bat since getting the gloves back and again opens the question about who the best keeper is. 

Its great to see a couple of young players step up in this test, and its certainly looking better on the batting front. But ultimately England still only have one player who averages over 40 in tests and are looking at recalling one theyve dropped twice already.

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England's Winter Empty Re: England's Winter

Post by Gooseberry on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 11:46 am

Not entirely sure in the logic of declaring when they did but makes no great shakes in the scheme of things and leaves England with the momentum rather than ending on a wicket I guess.

SA could hang around but really England should be humiliated if they can bowl them out with almost 5 sessions to play and runs in the bag.

With Bess itll be interesting to see if they give him fields and license to attack, or still treat him as a way of resting the seamers. A lot was made of his economy but in reality 3 england bowlers had a better rate than him first innings an noone really took a tapping.

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England's Winter Empty Re: England's Winter

Post by alfie on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 12:01 pm

Not the best start...why waste a review on an lbw against Malan (no disrespect intended) unless you are absolutely certain ?

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England's Winter Empty Re: England's Winter

Post by Duty281 on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 12:25 pm

SA being really aggressive with the running between the wickets, wanting to rotate the strike and put pressure on the fielders. Can’t agree with putting Bess on so early, but at least Root likes him (unlike Rashid!).

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England's Winter Empty Re: England's Winter

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