Champions Cup Round 5 & 6

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Post by Brendan on Sat 11 Jan 2020, 1:22 pm

First topic message reminder :

For the chats

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Post by BigGee on Sat 11 Jan 2020, 9:29 pm

Big Brian, a much loved former Glasgow player, is now on for Toulon, he is just an enormous man!

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Post by yappysnap on Sat 11 Jan 2020, 9:31 pm

Seems to score a heck of a lot of tries either way.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 11 Jan 2020, 9:46 pm

Yeah that’s the big talking point, seems a bit of a risk with a young man. Having said that he looks like a class player in the making, rapid pace and scores a lot of tries. More than just a finisher it would seem. He might get a look-in if LW is only half available.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Sat 11 Jan 2020, 9:52 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Rees-Zammit touched down for Glaws again. Did anyone see? Do the england rugby fans think he is a good defender? Apparently his defence is awful, although I suspect the person that told us hasn’t watched him.

I doubt he'd be starting for Glaws if he was that big a liability in defence. They aren't short of decent wingers. Obviously as an 18 year old there will be a lot to learn and he'll have to adapt to being physically diminutive compared to the other players on the pitch as he won't have finished filling it out yet.

He has that one thing you can't teach though, absolutely ridiculous pace. May has shown for England how you can use that to score a lot of tries at the highest level and also how you can use it to cover up defensive errors as well.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 11 Jan 2020, 9:59 pm

Yeah Sam, I don’t watch much premiership rugby but those were my thoughts exactly. I was being told he was “too raw and can’t defend” - making me wonder if this person had even seen the talk of the premiership play a game of rugby. It was miaow trying to be right though, maybe that helps understand the false claim.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 11 Jan 2020, 10:01 pm

Well as we’re talking about it here, this is a big Toulon team. Ollivon could be what France are missing at 8 if this game is anything to go by.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Sat 11 Jan 2020, 10:36 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Yeah Sam, I don’t watch much premiership rugby but those were my thoughts exactly. I was being told he was “too raw and can’t defend” - making me wonder if this person had even seen the talk of the premiership play a game of rugby. It was miaow trying to be right though, maybe that helps understand the false claim.

Gloucester to pair him with an experienced fullback and outside centre. If you've got the right people around him he'll be fine. If you put him in a makeshift backline then he might struggle and be targeted. If Halfpenny is at 15 he should be fine, there's few better positional 15s to guide him.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 11 Jan 2020, 10:42 pm

Could be Williams at 15 if he's available as there might be some reluctance to play Halfpenny after tonight. Against Italy I suspect we could get away with it.

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Post by tigertattie on Sat 11 Jan 2020, 11:13 pm

Rees-Zammit is on fire right now.

Yes he’s young. Yes he’s still learning. Yes he’s not the complete package.

But he’s a winger and he scores tries.

If wales are looking at transitioning and bringing on youngsters then he should be getting a shout. Him on one wing and Adams on the other with Liam Williams at 15 would be deadly.

1/2p on the bench to cover the back three and come in to close out a game or boot some match winning points.
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Post by Brendan on Sat 11 Jan 2020, 11:34 pm

With the form he is in compared to North he is surely a starter.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 11 Jan 2020, 11:43 pm

Every report I read about him is a positive one. I see Owen Williams was on the bench too, not sure if that was first game back for him but I haven't seen him up to now.

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Post by RiscaGame on Sun 12 Jan 2020, 12:36 am

It annoys me a bit, when wingers get criticised for being supposedly weak defensively. They’re supposed to be in an international environment where coaches can iron out these issues. Plus they may be playing different systems etc. As a Welshman, Shane Williams wasn’t great defensively and even George North isn’t. North couldn’t even handle Rio Dyer last weekend, yet some see fit to say RZ isn’t ready for Wales and would happily keep North.


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Post by mikey_dragon on Sun 12 Jan 2020, 12:50 am

Well that’s the point here, and it’s ridiculous. There seems to be a strong consensus who favour RZ which tells its own story. And to think we’ve been ridiculed for merely suggesting it.

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Post by carpet baboon on Sun 12 Jan 2020, 7:45 am

From the two or three games I have seen RZ play Wales should start him.
A lot of the talk about his defence not being good enough remind me of what people were saying about Stockdale a couple of years ago.
He got picked was top try scorer in the 6n and we won it.
Hes playing well enough so start him

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Sun 12 Jan 2020, 8:30 am

mikey_dragon wrote:Every report I read about him is a positive one. I see Owen Williams was on the bench too, not sure if that was first game back for him but I haven't seen him up to now.

I didn't see the game yesterday but saw him I think last weekend off the bench. He looked sharp, took the ball forward aggressively and was dispatching his signature big flat passes. Given Cips iffy form this season thought he might have got a start.

Talk of Liam Williams being ready for the 6N might be a bit hopeful. He's not played a minute on comeback for Sarries yet and he's been out a while. Maybe the tail end of the fixtures if he can get game time under his belt.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Sun 12 Jan 2020, 5:02 pm

Ospreys v Saracens
Glasgow v Exeter
Racing v Munster

All very entertaining matches

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Post by BigGee on Sun 12 Jan 2020, 5:10 pm

Teddy Thomas scored the most amazing touch down try from a Finn Russell cross kick that looked like it was going out all day long.

It broke Munster's heart as they had been hanging on by a thread up to that point.

They are out now, when was the last time Munster did not make the quarter finals?

The three runners up spots are all still open as well, a team could go through with 17 points this year, that is lower than usual as well!

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Post by Gooseberry on Sun 12 Jan 2020, 5:56 pm

BigGee wrote:Teddy Thomas scored the most amazing touch down try from a Finn Russell cross kick that looked like it was going out all day long.

It broke Munster's heart as they had been hanging on by a thread up to that point.

They are out now, when was the last time Munster did not make the quarter finals?

The three runners up spots are all still open as well, a team could go through with 17 points this year, that is lower than usual as well!

Munster can still qualify cant they?

5 points is a given at home vs Ospreys if they can avoid a red card in the first 5 minutes. Saracens have a tough trip to Racing who will be playing for home seedings. 16 points second in their group could be enough.
Ulster have an easy game against Bath so theres two teams through from that group almost guaranteed. Gloucester have to travel to Toulouse so will do well to finish over 14. Glasgow have an away trip to Sale which I guess theyd fancy but is far from a given, but expect them to finish of 16 or 17 with a better record. Saints have a must win trip to Lyon which would put then on 18/19 if they do. Their fates not in their hands and it would take a few results to go their way, but Munster can still qualify ( I think? have I missed something?)

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Post by BigGee on Sun 12 Jan 2020, 6:08 pm

Mathematically yes, but don't see any chance with 16 points.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Sun 12 Jan 2020, 6:18 pm

Gooseberry wrote:...Saracens have a tough trip to Racing.

Saracens will host Racing. The went to France for their first pool match (and lost 30-10)

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Sun 12 Jan 2020, 6:23 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:...Saracens have a tough trip to Racing.

Saracens will host Racing. The went to France for their first pool match (and lost 30-10)

Having sent a second string team to Paris in the first round. Expect a first choice side at home. The Vunipolas, Farrell and Itoje all likely to return. Should be a tough game.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sun 12 Jan 2020, 6:29 pm

Should be a Saracens win if that's the case. They've got this far with their 2nd team and without the player who probably took them over the cap.

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Post by BigGee on Sun 12 Jan 2020, 7:07 pm

Racing will want a home quarter final and so will turn up fully loaded. Should be a cracking game.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Mon 13 Jan 2020, 12:13 am

Tim Cocker of Eggchasers is predicting this line-up for the quarter-finals:

Leinster vs Saints
Exeter vs Saracens
Toulouse vs Ulster
Clermont vs Racing

Saints qualification perhaps the most in the balance. Exeter vs Saracens would be quite a match-up....

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Post by BigGee on Mon 13 Jan 2020, 8:08 am

That should give Racing some incentive next weekend, they will not fancy going to Clermont!

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Post by Brendan on Mon 13 Jan 2020, 11:33 am

I think Leinster and Exeter are the two teams to avoid

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Post by Tattie Scones RRN on Mon 13 Jan 2020, 12:24 pm

As soon as Exeter come up against a decent pack, I think they'll struggle big time.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Mon 13 Jan 2020, 12:37 pm

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:As soon as Exeter come up against a decent pack, I think they'll struggle big time.

Doesn't happen in the Premiership, they can go head to toe with anyone there. Cowan-Dickie apart that is a long way from their best tight 5.

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Post by rosbif on Mon 13 Jan 2020, 12:49 pm

Missing on Saturday for Exeter in the pack

Francis
Yeandle
Williams
Hill
Dennis
Simmonds
Armand
Skinner

An entire first team pack

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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 13 Jan 2020, 1:04 pm

Makes you wonder how they stay under the salary cap  Whistle

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Post by Khouli Khan on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 6:33 am

Rugby Fan wrote:Tim Cocker of Eggchasers is predicting this line-up for the quarter-finals:

Exeter vs Saracens


Oh the irony.... yet another chance for SalarySins to rob Chiefs of a trophy.

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Post by St John The Enforcer on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 10:25 am

BigGee wrote:

They are out now, when was the last time Munster did not make the quarter finals?
2 seasons in a row 2015 and 2016

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Post by Pot Hale on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 9:17 pm

Khouli Khan wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:Tim Cocker of Eggchasers is predicting this line-up for the quarter-finals:

Exeter vs Saracens


Oh the irony.... yet another chance for SalarySins to rob Chiefs of a trophy.

A greater irony would be for Saracens to get to 7th spot in the league and Exeter to win the European Cup.
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Post by Khouli Khan on Wed 15 Jan 2020, 6:28 am

Pot Hale wrote:
Khouli Khan wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:Tim Cocker of Eggchasers is predicting this line-up for the quarter-finals:

Exeter vs Saracens


Oh the irony.... yet another chance for SalarySins to rob Chiefs of a trophy.

A greater irony would be for Saracens to get to 7th spot in the league and Exeter to win the European Cup.  

Or is that justice.......

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 15 Jan 2020, 9:17 am

Khouli Khan wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Khouli Khan wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:Tim Cocker of Eggchasers is predicting this line-up for the quarter-finals:

Exeter vs Saracens


Oh the irony.... yet another chance for SalarySins to rob Chiefs of a trophy.

A greater irony would be for Saracens to get to 7th spot in the league and Exeter to win the European Cup.  

Or is that justice.......

Saracen's making the Champions Cup because Exeter win them the spot by winning the competition - close to ironic certainly.

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Post by Khouli Khan on Wed 15 Jan 2020, 9:25 am

LondonTiger wrote:
Khouli Khan wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Khouli Khan wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:Tim Cocker of Eggchasers is predicting this line-up for the quarter-finals:

Exeter vs Saracens


Oh the irony.... yet another chance for SalarySins to rob Chiefs of a trophy.

A greater irony would be for Saracens to get to 7th spot in the league and Exeter to win the European Cup.  

Or is that justice.......

Saracen's making the Champions Cup because Exeter win them the spot by winning the competition - close to ironic certainly.

More ironic than the actual physical positioning certainly.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 15 Jan 2020, 10:06 am

It is the finishing 7th that means they rely on Exeter securing them a Champions Cup spot.

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Post by Pot Hale on Wed 15 Jan 2020, 12:34 pm

LondonTiger wrote:It is the finishing 7th that means they rely on Exeter securing them a Champions Cup spot.

Exactly.
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Post by Brendan on Wed 15 Jan 2020, 2:58 pm

This is Europe not the Prem so cap avoiding Sarries doesn't come into it.  Sarries could if they wanted only sign Super Rugby players for 6 European games and they won't count in the Prem cap.  I have no issue with Sarries breaking the cap when it comes to Europe as the better the teams the better everyone else needs to be.

With Exeter having signed Hogg and now Gray while keeping the stars of the current squad how are they able to afford the squad.  As someone mentioned the smaller guys are the ones who kill you as if each of them get a 10% rise that kills you.  Only one of Hogg or Gray can be a marquee and neither would be cheap.

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Post by Khouli Khan on Wed 15 Jan 2020, 3:12 pm

Brendan wrote:

With Exeter having signed Hogg and now Gray while keeping the stars of the current squad how are they able to afford the squad.  

Probably because they're not paying their players stupid money like Saracens were (however they were doing it) and that very good players want to go to Chiefs regardless of the money because of the way the club is run, the ethos and the opportunity for silverware there.

What is apparently undeniable is that Chiefs have been, are, and through prudence will be at or under the salary cap in the future, proving it can be done.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 15 Jan 2020, 3:22 pm

Brendan wrote:With Exeter having signed Hogg and now Gray while keeping the stars of the current squad how are they able to afford the squad.  As someone mentioned the smaller guys are the ones who kill you as if each of them get a 10% rise that kills you.  Only one of Hogg or Gray can be a marquee and neither would be cheap.

I think that both marquee spots can be used for players from outside the league. So currently Hogg and a homegrown player (Nowell, Slade maybe) will be the marquee players. JG could then replace a high paid home star - though that would then add to the normal.

The big names can cause an issue simply because of the Wage inglation. At Wasps Beale was paid more than double what Launchbury was on (specific numbers always up for argument) but when contracty renewals come around Big Joe demands a substantial rise. The Will Rowlands wants more, as does James Gaskell etc etc

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 15 Jan 2020, 3:27 pm

'and that very good players want to go to Chiefs regardless of the money because of the way the club is run, the ethos and the opportunity for silverware there.'

It's like having a chiefs version of beshocked!

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Post by Khouli Khan on Wed 15 Jan 2020, 3:29 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:'and that very good players want to go to Chiefs regardless of the money because of the way the club is run, the ethos and the opportunity for silverware there.'

It's like having a chiefs version of beshocked!

So you wouldn't say it was true then?

Baxter's recruitment has been virtually impeccable thus far.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 15 Jan 2020, 3:30 pm

Just saying that's the exact line that beshocked used. Albeit with more opportunity for silverware!

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Wed 15 Jan 2020, 6:23 pm

Khouli Khan wrote:
Brendan wrote:

With Exeter having signed Hogg and now Gray while keeping the stars of the current squad how are they able to afford the squad.    

Probably because they're not paying their players stupid money like Saracens were (however they were doing it) and that very good players want to go to Chiefs regardless of the money because of the way the club is run, the ethos and the opportunity for silverware there.

What is apparently undeniable is that Chiefs have been, are, and through prudence will be at or under the salary cap in the future, proving it can be done.

It helps the Chiefs are based in a beautiful part of the world where the cost of living isn't particularly high. Must be an easy sell to your family when the offer comes in.

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Post by Brendan on Wed 15 Jan 2020, 6:24 pm

Being at Sarries you have more chance of Silverware than at Exeter. If Exeter are at or just under the cap then players must move on. If players are staying for a second contract it's unlikely they are getting paid the same.

If they are picking up players like Hogg and Gray who other teams would pay good money for are going to Exeter it is because they are paying good money.

How is Exeter better than other teams. Sarries actually had lots of things for the player's family which lots of players talk about as a big selling point where the club knew the needs of the family not just the players.

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Post by Pot Hale on Thu 16 Jan 2020, 12:01 am

Brendan wrote:This is Europe not the Prem so cap avoiding Sarries doesn't come into it.  Sarries could if they wanted only sign Super Rugby players for 6 European games and they won't count in the Prem cap.  I have no issue with Sarries breaking the cap when it comes to Europe as the better the teams the better everyone else needs to be.

With Exeter having signed Hogg and now Gray while keeping the stars of the current squad how are they able to afford the squad.  As someone mentioned the smaller guys are the ones who kill you as if each of them get a 10% rise that kills you.  Only one of Hogg or Gray can be a marquee and neither would be cheap.

You have your tenses wrong. They signed Hogg for this season and are presumably under the cap requirements, or perhaps slightly under it. If they bring in Gray next season on say 400k, then they need to create 400k of savings, if they cant use a marquee spot. So far this season, Exeter have only used 40 odd players of their 67 inc academy. They’ve enough old players that they can let go and create the money. Other teams have to do it.
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Post by Khouli Khan on Thu 16 Jan 2020, 6:22 am

Brendan wrote:Being at Sarries you have more chance of Silverware than at Exeter.  If Exeter are at or just under the cap then players must move on.  If players are staying for a second contract it's unlikely they are getting paid the same.

If they are picking up players like Hogg and Gray who other teams would pay good money for are going to Exeter it is because they are paying good money.

How is Exeter better than other teams.  Sarries actually had lots of things for the player's family which lots of players talk about as a big selling point where the club knew the needs of the family not just the players.

Saracens were (and probably still are) cheating and so it is no surprise that SalarySins won a haul of silverware. Whereas Exeter are not cheating, but are now arguably the best club in the Premiership and potentially Europe. I know if I had any morals, which club i'd be going to.

Tony Rowe has said on numerous occasions that the club's books are open. You might be a bit confused by all this but its a very simple equation that most of us seem to understand.


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Post by Khouli Khan on Thu 16 Jan 2020, 6:26 am

Pot Hale wrote:
Brendan wrote:This is Europe not the Prem so cap avoiding Sarries doesn't come into it.  Sarries could if they wanted only sign Super Rugby players for 6 European games and they won't count in the Prem cap.  I have no issue with Sarries breaking the cap when it comes to Europe as the better the teams the better everyone else needs to be.

With Exeter having signed Hogg and now Gray while keeping the stars of the current squad how are they able to afford the squad.  As someone mentioned the smaller guys are the ones who kill you as if each of them get a 10% rise that kills you.  Only one of Hogg or Gray can be a marquee and neither would be cheap.

You have your tenses wrong.   They signed Hogg for this season and are presumably under the cap requirements, or perhaps slightly under it.  If they bring in Gray next season on say 400k, then they need to create 400k of savings, if they cant use a marquee spot.   So far this season, Exeter have only used 40 odd players of their 67 inc academy.  They’ve enough old players that they can let go and create the money.  Other teams have to do it.  

Except SalaySins. Who are cheats.

Khouli Khan

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Thu 16 Jan 2020, 8:05 am

Brendan wrote:Being at Sarries you have more chance of Silverware than at Exeter.  If Exeter are at or just under the cap then players must move on.  If players are staying for a second contract it's unlikely they are getting paid the same.

If they are picking up players like Hogg and Gray who other teams would pay good money for are going to Exeter it is because they are paying good money.

How is Exeter better than other teams.  Sarries actually had lots of things for the player's family which lots of players talk about as a big selling point where the club knew the needs of the family not just the players.

Players signing for Exeter know they'll be in the playoffs fighting for silverware every season. Not quite on Sarries level but we know why.

The Chiefs have a number of older players they are likely to allow to leave in the summer. Dave Dennis and Greg Holmes could be released with no impact on Chiefs playing capabilities. They both signed as regular internationals so will be on a half decent salary.

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