PGA Tour: Florida Swing, Part 2: Bay Hill: More Notes from the Ballwasher

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Post by kwinigolfer on Thu 27 Feb 2020, 2:24 am

First topic message reminder :

1).The four tournament Florida Swing gets underway with the Honda Classic at PGA National - difficult enough for the pros but unforgiving to hackers.
Keith Mitchell is defending champ at the Honda Classic.
Francesco Molinari defends at Bay Hill.
Rory at The Players
And Paul Casey has won the past two Valspar Championships.

2).This is obviously a compressed part of the schedule - Justin Thomas won Honda a couple of years ago, but he's missing this week, no longer on his must do list.
princedrac reckons that only Riviera this year has had a stronger field in 2020 than in 2019.
Only FOUR top 60 Americans playing.
But SIX top 60 Englishmen.

3).I don't know what other long-time observers think, but it seems to me the Bermuda Greens experts have slightly less of an advantage than for previous generations.
No longer would Watson not be able to win in Florida while Trevino could never win in California.
Fer instance.
But Keith Mitchell may reveal himself to be an exception, so it'll be interesting to see how he fares this week.

4).The Top 50 from this coming Monday's owgr will qualify for The Players, then only five or six weeks before that will also be the benchmark for an Augusta invite. Time to get going for that one Poults. (Who should have won this a few years ago but for an untimely pandemic of the shanks.)

5).But on a more serious note, how will golf cope if China's germ warfare spreads more readily across the world? A conundrum that one doubts anyone (not Olympic organisers either) was thinking about a month ago. How will international players react if the US tries to close borders, as Trump TV advocated so strongly during the ebola outbreak? (Thank goodness for Cuba's doctors during that one - doubt they'll be called upon this time, not in the US anyway.)

6).High time a British golfer not called Rory (or Graeme) wins again on Tour, Casey was the last almost a year ago. Time for Fleetwood & Wallace to strut their stuff and for Poults and Rose to show they still have what it takes.

7).It's going to be breezy at Bay Hill, downright windy for Round 1 if Thursday's forecast is correct.

8).Francesco Molinari defends his thrilling win last March, but his only PGA Tour Top 20's since last year's Masters disappointment were at Portrush and Pebble Beach (US Open).

9).Non-Americans have won the past for Arnie Invitationals, Leishman & Day, Rory & Franny, and the International flavour extended all the way down the leaderboard last year, Keith Mitchell being the only American inside the Top Ten.
Including 2nd: Fitzpatrick
T3: Rafa C-B, Fleetwood
T6: Wallace, Rory

10).Hopefully Tommy can put last week's disappointment behind him, but don't overlook Henrik Stenson who has a fantastic record here without winning. Yet.


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Post by kwinigolfer on Sun 01 Mar 2020, 3:25 pm

Moving on.
This is Tommy Fleetwood's first 54-hole lead on the PGA Tour.
60-something events already under his belt and you'd think this is a big day for Tommy Fleet to assert himself in the US.

Meanwhile, we're in a purple-patch part of the season for Luuuke, though I'm surprised his Top-25 exemption doesn't get him into The Players - apparently. Then Valspar and Hilton Head a month later. If he's truly finding some semblance of form, these are big weks for him.

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Post by kwinigolfer on Sun 01 Mar 2020, 5:12 pm

PGA National appears to be playing a little easier today, not sure why but looks a bit warmer and possibly less gusty.

Anyway, perhaps someone can come out of the pack. Shane!


Looking ahead four days, it looks breezy again for Bay Hill, another waterpark course.

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Post by kwinigolfer on Sun 01 Mar 2020, 10:14 pm

Internationals beating the Englishmen - miracle needed.

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Post by McLaren on Sun 01 Mar 2020, 11:53 pm

The internet will have you believe it was the fan shouting during his swing but in reality it was a choke swing.
There is some truth to this sickeningly pro american take from Paul Tommy.

https://twitter.com/gfordgolf/status/1234218145134440448
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Post by kwinigolfer on Mon 02 Mar 2020, 1:37 am

The only way to shut Azinger up is to beat him, and unfortunately that didn't happen.
Sounds like Westwood got into it with him on Saturday, which I missed.

Great tournament and big thumbs up that the Big Tourists got a couple of T4's, but very disappointing for the English crew, no getting away from it.
If anything was said from the crowd, that says more about the Florida gallery . . . . . . . . won't go there.

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Post by kwinigolfer on Mon 02 Mar 2020, 1:48 am

Yet another win on the Champo Tour from Bernhard Langer, and a first Top Ten from Robbie Karlsson, first of many no doubt.

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Post by beninho on Mon 02 Mar 2020, 7:05 am

Caught most of the coverage yesterday. Deserved win by Im. Tommy could or should have won, he missed a few makeable puts.

Azinger was awful. The coverage not great.

The course, isn't great is it.

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Post by pedro on Mon 02 Mar 2020, 10:41 am

With 3-4 Europeans in the top 10 going into round 4, I guess Zinger had to say something like that. He's paid to have an opinion about everything.

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Post by McLaren on Mon 02 Mar 2020, 11:57 am

For whatever reason a European never looks comfortable at the top end of a PGAT event.
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Post by JAS on Mon 02 Mar 2020, 3:05 pm

pedro wrote:With 3-4 Europeans in the top 10 going into round 4, I guess Zinger had to say something like that. He's paid to have an opinion about everything.

Of course the obvious retort is “Yeah but Ryder Cups only last 3 days Paul”

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Post by McLaren on Mon 02 Mar 2020, 3:28 pm

JAS wrote:
pedro wrote:With 3-4 Europeans in the top 10 going into round 4, I guess Zinger had to say something like that. He's paid to have an opinion about everything.

Of course the obvious retort is “Yeah but Ryder Cups only last 3 days Paul”

Tommy certainly wishes PGAT events only lasted for 3 days.

I would imagine this will be quite tough for him to get over. Ideally he will get into contention again very soon so he can quickly prove to himself it was one poor round.
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Post by kwinigolfer on Mon 02 Mar 2020, 3:52 pm

McLaren wrote:
JAS wrote:
pedro wrote:With 3-4 Europeans in the top 10 going into round 4, I guess Zinger had to say something like that. He's paid to have an opinion about everything.

Of course the obvious retort is “Yeah but Ryder Cups only last 3 days Paul”

Tommy certainly wishes PGAT events only lasted for 3 days.

I would imagine this will be quite tough for him to get over. Ideally he will get into contention again very soon so he can quickly prove to himself it was one poor round.


Mac,
That's Tommy's first 54-hole lead so he'd have to pick and choose which particular "3 days" . . . . . . . . . .

He has a heavy schedule coming up so he'll be back on the horse this week.

JAS is right, sure Tommy, Luke and Lee wouldn't trade a PGA title for any of their Ryder Cups. Record for Paul's edification would be something like Played 15, Won 12, lost 3. Beats the sh1t out of a Honda. Nice though a win yesterday would have been.

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Post by Shotrock on Mon 02 Mar 2020, 4:00 pm

Saw the replay this morning of the final hour. Interesting tournament and well done to Im. Not too many 21 year olds win on the Big Tour. That was an unforced error on 18 for both Steele and Fleetwood. A bigger story, however, might be Hughes. He just makes the cut and finished solo 2nd. The decision to reduce the weekend fields can't sit well with the rank and file when you see that result.

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Post by McLaren on Mon 02 Mar 2020, 4:54 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:

JAS is right, sure Tommy, Luke and Lee wouldn't trade a PGA title for any of their Ryder Cups

I would find that hard to fathom if they actually thought that. If you have no or very few PGAT wins an extra win would mean so much to your career achievements.

It might not be comparable but would you trade in your best achievement on your club team for winning the club champs? I think I would.

I think the only person on here who has won a club champ is super so he might be able to answer that.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Mon 02 Mar 2020, 5:27 pm

McLaren wrote:
kwinigolfer wrote:

JAS is right, sure Tommy, Luke and Lee wouldn't trade a PGA title for any of their Ryder Cups

I would find that hard to fathom if they actually thought that. If you have no or very few PGAT wins an extra win would mean so much to your career achievements.

It might not be comparable but would you trade in your best achievement on your club team for winning the club champs? I think I would.

I think the only person on here who has won a club champ is super so he might be able to answer that.
Not sure I agree. What's one other 'typical' tournament win to these pros? Not like it makes much difference to record or bank balance. A Major's a different kettle of fish though.
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Post by kwinigolfer on Mon 02 Mar 2020, 5:36 pm

Bl00dy hell,

Even Iain Carter is weighing in on Azinger/PGATour.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/golf/51709473

(Hardly think a young Azinger losing to Faldo @ Muirfield is a fair comparison . . . . . .)

But interesting comments about some broadcasts becoming almost infomercials (my word, not his).


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Post by kwinigolfer on Mon 02 Mar 2020, 5:39 pm

McLaren wrote:
kwinigolfer wrote:

JAS is right, sure Tommy, Luke and Lee wouldn't trade a PGA title for any of their Ryder Cups

I would find that hard to fathom if they actually thought that. If you have no or very few PGAT wins an extra win would mean so much to your career achievements.

It might not be comparable but would you trade in your best achievement on your club team for winning the club champs? I think I would.

I think the only person on here who has won a club champ is super so he might be able to answer that.


Mac,
Whether at work or play, I can guarantee you I took more satisfaction from team wins that individual results - but fully understand that everyone is different. Won't be picking you first in my team then . . . . . . .

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Post by kwinigolfer on Mon 02 Mar 2020, 8:24 pm

A nice bit of tongue in cheek from Captain Bjorn:

"Looking forward to watching F Molinari defending the biggest win of his career this week at Bay Hill"


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Post by kwinigolfer on Mon 02 Mar 2020, 9:22 pm

A little bit of a reshuffle in the Florida batting order for next year?
Reports say: Bay Hill (who cares, Mr.Palmer is gone), The Players, Honda. Not sure about Valspar . . . . . . . can't remember when their contract expires.

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Post by super_realist on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 7:53 am

McLaren wrote:
kwinigolfer wrote:

JAS is right, sure Tommy, Luke and Lee wouldn't trade a PGA title for any of their Ryder Cups

I would find that hard to fathom if they actually thought that. If you have no or very few PGAT wins an extra win would mean so much to your career achievements.

It might not be comparable but would you trade in your best achievement on your club team for winning the club champs? I think I would.

I think the only person on here who has won a club champ is super so he might be able to answer that.

I very much doubt that either Lee or Luke would trade in any of their Ryder Cup wins for more PGA wins, especially one with such a low ranking as the one that just went by at the weekend.
Fleetwood has won events on the European Tour with far higher field strength than that one at the weekend.
There's no doubt that the PGA is the Premier tour, but that doesn't mean that every event on it is better than every event on the European Tour, far from it, many are considerably worse in terms of strength of field.

I don't like Azinger, but at least he said something which wasn't beige. Golf commentary in America and American coverage is absolutely wretched, so it's good to see a bit of shade thrown over the broadcasting, because it really does stink 99% of the time.

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Post by robopz on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 12:08 pm

Paul Azinger proves you either shouldn't tell the truth, but if you do, you better do it in a way to massage everybody's egos along the way....  IMO Joe Beall's take in Golf Digest pretty much nailed it...

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/paul-azinger-words-on-european-golf-were-harsh-they-also-werent-wrong

https://twitter.com/JoelMBeall/status/1234492560996888579?s=19

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Post by robopz on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 12:30 pm

super_realist wrote:Fleetwood has won events on the European Tour with far higher field strength than that one at the weekend.
 IMO The strength of the Honda vs what Fleetwood won in Europe is hardly relevant.  But if it is, I don't believe your statement is true.  Based on the biasd OWGR field strengths, some of Tommy's wins look stronger than the Honda, but in reality, with the OWGR mathematical biases removed, they actually weren't. Or if they were, only marginally.

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Post by kwinigolfer on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 12:59 pm

I wonder how Zinger justified the Florida streak last year, not long after Rose had won San Diego?
Bay Hill: Molinari
Players: McIlroy
Valspar: Casey

Would also say that Fleetwood's Ryder Cup (not mentioned on Beall Street) demolition work with Molinari has put a target on his back which Azinger feels he has to take potshots at.

The Europeans don't have to take a back seat to Azinger or anyone else.
Is there more "cash" on the PGA Tour? Of course.
Is there more "prestige"? Usually.
Does Tommy need to get a US W? Absolutely.
Does that diminish any of his achievements to date? Not one bit. And, by the way, he still didn't get the "W", but his two best owgr results to date are at Majors - or would Zinger wish to demean those achievements too?


(robo,
It must be a very fine line between owgr bias against the PGA Tour and the extent to which many Tour events are subsidised by the presence of leading Europeans.)

Having said all of which, Europeans can shut Azinger up by winning on the course.








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Post by robopz on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 1:01 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:
I'm never wrong wrote:Why is this course so hard?  I saw a stat that showed the winning score rarely got into double figures. Speed of greens or what?


I don't know what robo would say, but my take is that the fairways are not that easy to hit, all the Par-3's are tricky, there's water on 16 out of 18 holes, there are only 2 x Par-5's, and it's very penal - invariably more water balls than any other course, about 50 more last year.

And that should not be confused with good golf course architecture.

Exponentially more difficult for amateurs, no fun at all.
RE your statement: "and that should not be confused with good golf course architecture".... I Couldn't agree more.  IMO PGA National is about one of the most unimaginative designs on the PGA tour.  It almost seems like... "We don't have a clue what to do with this flat piece of swamp land so let's put water water everywhere".  Holes 15 and 17 at the bear trap are a perfect example. They're basically the same damn hole, two holes apart.

IMO The last good course this tournament used was Inverrary way back when. Past venues of Eagle Trace, Mirasol & Heron Bay were cut from the same cloth as PGA National. "We're going to make you miss in the water, cuz we couldn't think of anything else (and we need to sell waterfront housing lots)".

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Post by kwinigolfer on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 1:18 pm

I think the Inverary Jackie Gleason win by Nicklaus was the first PGA Tour (as opposed to Majors) event I watched live. Who'd he beat - Grier Jones? Still a breathtaking finish, as amazing now as it was forty two years ago!

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Post by robopz on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 1:34 pm

Kwini... With all due respect, IMO your response is like most I've seen from Europe. A giant case of point missing.  The meat of Azinger's comments weren't about European tour players, nor a USA vs Europe Ryder Cup debate. IT WAS ABOUT TOURS.  Was he little over the top, YES.  DId Mark freaking Wilson deserve to be mentioned in  context with any of those other guys? NO. But was Azinger wrong? NO

What makes the PGA tour by far the better tour is not because we have the best of our guys (Americans), is that we also have the best of Europe's guys dual touring on it as well...(and many of those Euros are playing more here than on the ET). Ditto many Aussies/NZ, Saffers, Japanese, Canadians, Koreans, Other Asians, S. Americans etc. either dual touring or playing on it full time.  For reference, I point out the 11 or 12 from Europes last Ryder Cup team who were PGAT members.  The last Rider cup was almost as much a battle of Floridians as it was USA versus Europe.

So I don't think Azinger has any problem with Rahm, Rory, Henrik, Rose, Molinari, et al winning PGAT events. in fact from his comments its quite clear he sees it just the opposite. He sees it as a feather in their cap and greater accomplishment validating their play elsewhere.  Same would go for all the Presidents Cup guys who are showing a recent resurgence on tour.

So bottom line... ABSOLUTELY PGA tour events are better because of all the non-Americans (including Euros) participating.  THAT'S the point, and a huge reason why it's so much harder to win here.  When you come over here, not only do you have to beat "our guys", but you have to beat "your guys" as well (at least most of the time)

Bottom line #2... This is NOT a USA versus Europe debate regardless of how many people are trying to reframe it into one. The PGA tour loves the best players in the world coming over here to play. Regardless of where they are from.

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Post by McLaren on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 1:55 pm

robo

Much like many of the debates with super on here over his racism or other bigotry it sometimes more about the intent, tone and conotation of what someone is saying rather than the literal meaning of the words used.

A very charitable take on what Azinger said would be to say he was just pointing out that the ET was weaker than the PGAT. But his tone and the way he said it did not hide the US superiority complex he was unleashing on the world. He was clearly speaking from a position of patriotism and wanted to discredit the top European players irrespective of what tour they play on.


It seems Joell Beal has similarly poor comprehension to super as he thinks "The heart of Azinger’s argument was simply that it’s harder to win on the PGA Tour, a sentiment that shouldn’t be considered incendiary."

No it wasn't. It was a sad case of jingoism.


Although there is someone who has just made the point that the ET is weaker, and that was Rors on several occasions. He has provided such gems as;

“I am sick of coming back over to the European Tour and shooting 15 under par and finishing [T26], I don’t think the courses are set up hard enough. There’s no penalties for bad shots. It’s tough when you come back when it’s like that.”


“The ultimate goal is here [PGAT]. The European Tour is a stepping stone. That’s the truth. The European Tour is a stepping stone. That’s the way it is.”

“It’s so one-sided. You can talk all you want about these bigger events in Europe, but you can go to America and play for more money and more ranking points."

“I want to play against the best players in the world. I get a buzz from that. I’d much rather go down the stretch against Justin Thomas or Dustin Johnson. I’m not putting anyone down in Europe, but the depths of the field and everything is just that bit better over here. ”
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Post by robopz on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 2:05 pm

Only thing I could say to that Kwini... The American broadcasters & golf media can't hold a candle to the European side in jingoism.  Man talk about a bunch of who can dish it out but can't take it...  Here's looking at you Huggin, Lynch, Carter, Murray, etc, etc...

So... If we think the issue isn't what Azinger actually said, but instead its he wasn't sufficiently "woke enough" or qualifying enough, or ego massaging enough in the way he said it... then it's hard to disagree on that point at least.

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Post by McLaren on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 2:14 pm

This will no doubt not even get a mention let alone any sanction by the PGAT but in the last day or so Scott Piercy has posted pro Qanon stuff and this homophobic meme about Pete Buttigieg(former dem candidate) on his instagram stories. (which apparently self delete after 24 hours but someone got a screen grab of this one)

Piercy homophobic post:
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Post by kwinigolfer on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 2:40 pm

robo

I seldom read the media you mention, but did think Carter's observation about the (growing ?) extent to which the Tour expects broadcasters to be cheerleaders for the Tour, even to the exclusion of comments about Majors, was interesting . . . . . .
But usually can't stand Carter, don't know Lynch and/or Murray and seldom read Huggan. Much more interested in the very excellent Warren Humphreys and Anthony Wall.
Plus don't know "woke".

But NBC has always been more jingoistic, even without Jacobsen (are we now agreed he's disappeared?), and can never be accused of having done homework on non-US golfers; Gary Koch an honourable exception, as to a lesser extent is Maltbie.
Interesting that Nicklaus spoke out in favour of Fleetwood . . . . . . . .





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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 2:53 pm

robopz wrote:Only thing I could say to that Kwini... The American broadcasters & golf media can't hold a candle to the European side in jingoism.  Man talk about a bunch of who can dish it out but can't take it...  Here's looking at you Huggin, Lynch, Carter, Murray, etc, etc...

So... If we think the issue isn't what Azinger actually said, but instead its he wasn't sufficiently "woke enough" or qualifying enough, or ego massaging enough in the way he said it... then it's hard to disagree on that point at least.
Laugh laughing Azinger thinks that because pop was military, that makes him some sort of hard man. He's an A-grade, archetype prat. Maybe he thinks he has to somehow stand out as a commentator in a field of beige rubbish? Is he trying to be harder/more controversial than Chamblee? Who knows? I doubt he has the self-awareness to know wtf he's doing.

Excellent player in his day. Shame about the rest.
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Post by robopz on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 3:01 pm

I don't see what's necessarily interesting about Jack speaking highly of Fleetwood (he was leading at the time)... But so did Azinger for most of three days (which nobody seemed to notice).

Fleetwood's enjoying a fine career, nobody disputes that. But let's be real. Down the line somewhere for him to get the ultimate respect, He's going to need to win more & some over here, even more preferably that being events like WGCs, Players & especially majors. But he's still a young guy, not even 30 yet. It's waaaaay too early to be worrying about what he hasn't done.

And by the way... I like this Sungjae guy. But this past week I was way more in the bag for Fleetwood, Westy or Luke. Would have been awesome to see any of those three win. Would have shut some people up on Westwood too. IMO That's always a good thing...:-)

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Post by robopz on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 3:08 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
robopz wrote:Only thing I could say to that Kwini... The American broadcasters & golf media can't hold a candle to the European side in jingoism.  Man talk about a bunch of who can dish it out but can't take it...  Here's looking at you Huggin, Lynch, Carter, Murray, etc, etc...

So... If we think the issue isn't what Azinger actually said, but instead its he wasn't sufficiently "woke enough" or qualifying enough, or ego massaging enough in the way he said it... then it's hard to disagree on that point at least.
Laugh laughing Azinger thinks that because pop was military, that makes him some sort of hard man. He's an A-grade, archetype prat. Maybe he thinks he has to somehow stand out as a commentator in a field of beige rubbish? Is he trying to be harder/more controversial than Chamblee? Who knows? I doubt he has the self-awareness to know wtf he's doing.

Excellent player in his day. Shame about the rest.
IMO analyst today are in no win situation. Either they're "beige" as you put it, or they're willing to speak their mind.  But beware the latter, cuz its sure to raise somebody's hackles.  See Johnny Miller, Nick Faldo, McCord... Etc...


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Post by Shotrock on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 3:31 pm

Robo - Perhaps the (mostly American) announcers, particularly the outspoken ones, alienate a few armchair QB's on forums like this, BUT the numbers clearly support healthy, growing contracts for broadcast rights on the Big Tour. I don't understand why some people watch "unwatchable" broadcasts. Maybe it's a pleasure/pain thing? Who knows.

Me, I sort of watch it for the golf.

And speaking of actual play, are you hearing any grumblings from the players about the reduced fields?




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Post by kwinigolfer on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 3:34 pm

Back to a few weeks ago:
World Golf Hall Of Fame Nominees
Woods
Harrington
Johnny Farrell
Weiskopf (still can't believe he's not already in)

Dottie Pepper
Sandra Palmer
Susie Berning
Beverly Hanson

Tim Finchem (Ugh)
Marion Hollins (Had never heard of her but sounds quite deserving)

Aren't the WGHOF making a rod for their own back here, it'll be a major dis for those not going in with Woods? Imagine Finchem will get to share the stage with Tiger, probably demands it.
What happens to nominees who are cast aside? Next year (2023) or discarded completely - never quite sure the point of how they did out nominees.

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Post by robopz on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 3:44 pm

Shotrock... Yeah... I watch for the golf too. There's not much any of the announcers ever say, or mistakes, or supposed controversial things they say that impedes my enjoyment of watching the golf.  But some people seem to live and die on every word they say. Not my thing, but to each his own. (And I'm not talking about zinger's comments this week. I totally get why those rev'ed up a bunch of engines).

As for field sizes... I'm really not in a first hand position to hear much about it one way or the other anymore. I've only been to Houston and Los Angeles so far.  But I'm not seeing any chartter about it online or media one way the other online (except for some Twitter guy "Monday Q" who seems to think every good guy hard luck qualifier type should get into everything over any player who has earned "perks").  And tracking starts for the KFT category guys, I'm not seeing them getting short changed this year over last. At least not yet. So if KFT guys get in enough starts, then I don't see a problem.

PS... And I haven't seen any verdict from anybody in regards to the changed cut to 65. From my quick count I think it's affected 11/16 cuts so far


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Post by Shotrock on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 3:46 pm

Mac - That's some obnoxious stuff from Piercy. Consider the source I guess.

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Post by robopz on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 3:52 pm

Kwini... Under the new HoF rules... Players remain eligible for the players ballot virtually forever. So just because somebody doesn't get 75% this year... Doesn't mean they can't get it in the next cycle, or the next, or the next.

And by the way... IMO Finchem it's absolutely worthy in the "contributors" category...

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Post by GPB on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 4:42 pm

Robo:  Absolutely correct.  The subsidies that the Oman Open, and Mauritius  Classic, South African Open, and yes even PGA-BMW recieve not only affect those tournaments but they affect all the European events.   the PGATour has about 4-5 tournaments a year that are significantly subsidized (opposite field).  The Euro Tour has about 20.

And the Ryder Cup argument once again.   Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

a.  Ryder Cup is TWELVE, count them, 12 PLAYERS/team.  12 players does not constitute a Tour,

b.  Many, if not most, of Euro 's Team are PGATour members

c.  The RC is 18 hole match-play, 28 matches.  There is a reason why the Euros don't want to expand the competition to 30 or 32 matches.  Psst, Why did the Int'ls fight so hard to lower the # of matches

d.  Did I say competition?  I should have said it is an EXHIBITION! that eliminates 20-30% of the World Class golfer from qualifying.

Sorry the Ryder Cup argument is growing weary.  Its got more holes than a practice putting green and a dough nut shop

Kwini, Are you zeroing in on Zinger's comments but ignoring the comments from the media that Robo mentioned?  How Convenient.  Euro media is just a xenophobic towards US as Zinger is alleged to be,

Mac:  Are you saying it is HOW Zinger made his comments  (blunt, obtuse) rather than WHAT he said. Good thing it is winter here, because that is pretty snowflake attitude.  Listen to the message, do not be concerned with the Messenger.

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Post by kwinigolfer on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 5:02 pm

GPB,
I'm not sure that I'm having a massive go at Azinger - certainly trying to balance it with appreciation for the work that Koch & Maltbie do.

Trying to counter with some objective pragmatism clearly not working, but don't feel as if I zeroed in anywhere. Actually defended Azinger.

As I didn't read any of the other guff that robo refers to, it's difficult to comment more than I have; never heard of two of his examples.



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Post by McLaren on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 5:12 pm

robo

I am saying that it would be naive to think Azinger was just saying the PGAT was stronger than the ET. His tone, demeanor, style of presentation all told me he has bought into a jingoistic american exceptionalism.
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Post by beninho on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 6:14 pm

Azinger Is s mouth piece for the pga tour. His claim that Tommy needs a win in America to consolidate himself is rubbish. He's won bigger events then the Honda classic. I heard them say he's played 64 pga events and mainly the big ones against better players.

Finally has played 150 with 1 win in a second tier event. I don't hear azinger question him. Though he may have.

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Post by robopz on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 6:26 pm

McLaren wrote:robo

I am saying that it would be naive to think Azinger was just saying the PGAT was stronger than the ET. His tone, demeanor, style of presentation all told me he has bought into a jingoistic american exceptionalism.
Mac... I don't read anything he said as American exceptionalism... But I did read it 100% as PGA TOUR exceptionalism. IMO that's where the European outrage has gotten off track and morphed into a freaking Ryder Cup discussion.

Bottom line... When you play a European tour premium event, you got to beat the European tours best players along with an occasional American or other international top ranked tourist. But for most of the European tour schedule... Almost none of even Europe's top players are there, because the best of them are over playing on the PGAT.... But when you come over and play on the PGA tour, most weeks you not only have to beat a good bunch of America's best, but the best European Tour players as well. (And Aussies, and Saffers, and Japanese, and Koreans... Etc)

Azinger knows that, because in his day the better guys he was having to beat (and were beating him) included players like Seve, Norman and Price. ITS NOT AMERICA VS EUROPE.

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Post by robopz on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 6:48 pm

beninho wrote:Azinger Is s mouth piece for the pga tour. His claim that Tommy needs a win in America to consolidate himself is rubbish. He's won bigger events then the Honda classic. I heard them say he's played 64 pga events and mainly the big ones against better players.

Finally has played 150 with 1 win in a second tier event. I don't hear azinger question him. Though he may have.
Media & broadcasters over here are all over Finau every time he contends and continues to fail again and again and again.

I don't think Azingers comments were intended to say success on the PGA tour is defined by winning the Honda Classic. They were about having success on the PGA tour to validate yourself as a true world player.  

But if people want to Make it about the strength to the Honda classic... Then I would say no, actually Tommy hasn't won any events stronger than the 2020 Honda classic despite the OWGR biases suggesting it.  IMO the best available compilation of real field strengths is this one from DataGolf. There's no individual,  tour or national bias built in. It's all based on how players play & score against each other for REAL, no agenda.  In the tables at the link below, The lower the % number to the far right, The better the field. You can scroll through back to 2017.

https://datagolf.org/field-strength-table

For instance...

8.3% - 2020 Honda Classic

Tommys wins
16.0% - 2019 Nedbank
10.2% - 2018 Abu Dhabi
13.1% - 2017 Open de France
11.0% - 2017 Abu Dhabi

EDIT: PS... But tbe Datagolf field strength rankings aren't perfect either. Just way better than the OWGR. But IMO they still over value short field events like the tournament of champions, tour championship and Hero World Challenge. They are better when they get back up to 60+ player fields


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Post by beninho on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 7:06 pm

The world rankings have the strength of field higher for both Abu Dhabi and Paris in Tommy's wins. I think when you look at who competed you can see why.

Anyway, tommy is clearly a world class player, lack of us wins not withstanding. If he played more, rank and file events in us, he would probably have won more.

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Post by robopz on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 7:23 pm

beninho wrote:The world rankings have the strength of field higher for both Abu Dhabi and Paris in Tommy's wins.  I think when you look at who competed you can see why.

Anyway, tommy is clearly a world class player, lack of us wins not withstanding. If he played more, rank and file events in us, he would probably have won more.
disagree with you entirely on the OWGR strengths and Eyeball test of those events. Datagolf is far closer to true field strengths IMO.

But as for Tommy... Absolutely. Clearly he showing to be a world class player. He's winning some of the European tours best events and hes contending enough over here (not to mention majors and other big events) to demonstrate his quality. NOBODY should be bagging him for not having won over here yet, He's simply not played over here enough to be saying that. His trajectory suggest he's getting closer. And he's only 29 years old... Plenty of time

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Post by kwinigolfer on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 8:16 pm

McLaren wrote:This will no doubt not even get a mention let alone any sanction by the PGAT but in the last day or so Scott Piercy has posted pro Qanon stuff and this homophobic meme about Pete Buttigieg(former dem candidate) on his instagram stories. (which apparently self delete after 24 hours but someone got a screen grab of this one)

Piercy homophobic post:
PGA Tour: Florida Swing, Part 2: Bay Hill: More Notes from the Ballwasher - Page 2 IMG_4133


https://www.golfchannel.com/news/scott-piercy-apologizes-after-posting-anti-gay-slur-instagram


I'm sure it plays well to his base, sure they would NEVER be offended.

Footballers in GB would be suspended for a few games, it would be nice to think Monahan would sit Piercy down for this but, no, he'll be representing the PGA Tour at Bay Hill.

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Post by robopz on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 9:53 pm

Wait a minute... So now we want Monahan and the Tour to regulate players personal beliefs and politics? Wow... Who gets the draw the lines on that? The new PGA Tour "thought police" committee?

The dumbass pic and his comments were Piercy's not the Tour's. He's not an employee, he doesn't work for them. So it's HIS bed, let him lie in it. And if he loses sponsors and such over it, so be it.

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Post by kwinigolfer on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 10:18 pm

robopz wrote:Wait a minute... So now we want Monahan and the Tour to regulate players personal beliefs and politics?  Wow... Who gets the draw the lines on that?  The new PGA Tour "thought police"  committee?  

The dumbass pic and his comments were Piercy's not the Tour's. He's not an employee, he doesn't work for them.  So it's HIS bed, let him lie in it. And if he loses sponsors and such over it, so be it.  


Why did they comment then? They can't have it both ways.

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Post by beninho on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 10:41 pm

Could an event, not invite him?

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