Antrim and The Ulster Hurling Championship

by Hartley Wed 29 Jun 2011, 6:48 pm

Right - there was a time when the Ulster hurling final was the most exciting day ever in a year. I use to love it - we had a few good tussles with Down and Derry etc. and you knew winning it would give you a crack at a top team from 'the free state' as my mother would say down in Croke Park.

However, on Sunday we will win it for the 10th consecutive year. If we play bad and Armagh play great we'll win by 10 points. If we play good and Armagh play good we'll win by 20 points. If Armagh play bad and we play good then the Cork v Laois game may seem competitive by comparison.

The UHC is not linked into any of the Liam MacCarthy, Christy Ring, Nicky Rackard or Lory Meagher cups. We were in the Leinster Championship (beat Laois, lost to Wexford) and are progressing through the qualifiers (beat Westmeath, beat Carlow so far) and I think do we really need the UHC and does it need us?

Surely the UHC would be much more interesting if Antrim pulled out and let Down, Armagh, Derry, London etc. fight it out! It's just a pain in the neck for Antrim - we've outgrown it and our future lies in Leinster. I mean would anyone be interested in a Connacht hurling championship with Galway taking part? I actually think there should be a CHC without Galway - that would be interesting.

I was at the Westmeath game, I was at the Carlow game but I'm thinking maybe I'll just miss the Ulster hurling final on Sunday and watch Cork v Kerry football instead and save my money for Cliftonville v The New Saints ticket in the Europa League!!!

by Cari Wed 29 Jun 2011, 7:36 pm

Hello Hartley! Nice to see you. Very Happy

The Cork-Kerry game should be...umm...a corker!

by Ar aghaidh le cheile Wed 29 Jun 2011, 8:25 pm

Hartley wrote:Right - there was a time when the Ulster
hurling final was the most exciting day ever in a year. I use to love it - we had a few good tussles with Down and Derry etc. and you knew winning it would give you a crack at a top team from 'the free state' as my mother would say down in Croke Park.

However, on Sunday we will win it for the 10th consecutive year. If we play bad and Armagh play great we'll win by 10 points. If we play good and Armagh play good we'll win by 20 points. If Armagh play bad and we play good then the Cork v Laois game may seem competitive by comparison.

The UHC is not linked into any of the Liam MacCarthy, Christy Ring, Nicky Rackard or Lory Meagher cups. We were in the Leinster Championship (beat Laois, lost to Wexford) and are progressing through the qualifiers (beat Westmeath, beat Carlow so far) and I think do we really need the UHC and does it need us?

Surely the UHC would be much more interesting if Antrim pulled out and let Down, Armagh, Derry, London etc. fight it out! It's just a pain in the neck for Antrim - we've outgrown it and our future lies in Leinster. I mean would anyone be interested in a Connacht hurling championship with Galway taking part? I actually think there should be a CHC without Galway - that would be interesting.

I was at the Westmeath game, I was at the Carlow game but I'm thinking maybe I'll just miss the Ulster hurling final on Sunday and watch Cork v Kerry football instead and save my money for Cliftonville v The New Saints ticket in the Europa League!!!

Antrim really have outgrown Ulster beating Laois Westmeath and Carlow. Iam sure the super powers are quaking.
Perhaps Antrim and the rest of the make weights could amalgamate come up with a made up name and come up with a combined team that may make a game of it someday.
On the other hand perhaps the freestaters will tire of you and send you back where you belong.
However improbable I hope Armagh rub Antrim nose in it.

by Gaelic-Warrior Thu 30 Jun 2011, 10:21 am

Antrim aren't exactly heavy weights, nor is Hartley making out that they are Ar aghaidh le cheile. But yes they have outgrown the UHC, they are like Kilkenny at times to the rest of the province. TBH I'd forgotten since they moved to Leinster that they still compete in Ulster. This leads us back to the debate we had not so long ago Ar aghaidh le cheile, should Antrim compete in the UHC, no they shouldn't. For the same reason that you can't have the lower counties competing in hurling's top tier, it does no good for the lower counties at all, nor the championship as a competitive spectacle.

by Kingshu Thu 30 Jun 2011, 3:06 pm

I think Antrom should be in the UHC and only get a bye to the semi-final,

put it this way, the way a team improves quickest is not by playing teams at the same level as them, but by playing teams that are better than them (this is different from being hammered by them, as that does no good)
hence Antrims move to Leinster.
Learning from the better team and copying things untill they are at a level they can beat them.

The other counties in Ulster will learn quicker from playing Antrim, than each other, and it's my view that Antrim need to assist the other Counties in this regard, the same way as they are being Assisted in Leinster.

Also with no Antrim the Ulster branch may do away with the UHC and put the money into promoting football further, eventually this will lead to a declince of Hurling in Antrim and it will be a forgotten sport in Ulster.

by Hartley Thu 30 Jun 2011, 4:19 pm

Antrim may not be a superpower but we did knock Dublin out last year at Croke Park. ;-)

by Gaelic-Warrior Thu 30 Jun 2011, 4:20 pm

The other counties in Ulster have been playing Antrim for ages now and only Antrim have won the UHC in the past decade or so. The saffrons have also got the most Ulster titles with 50, the second most successful is Derry and Down with 4 each. If these other counties in Ulster are supposed to be learning from this then its taking them a hell of a long time. The playing field in Hurling is so uneven atm that playing counties at a higher tier than you more often than not results in a hammering.

It seems already that Hurling is a forgotten sport in some parts of Ulster, Football is the thing there. Its up to the Ulster branch and county boards where the game struggles to promote the wee ball code better.

by Kingshu Thu 30 Jun 2011, 4:53 pm

Put it this way then,
Where was Dublin Hurling 10-15 years ago?
it's well know the GAA have pumped millions into Dublin over the last 10 years to promote hurling and are now seeing the results. Look at the time and money that was put into Dublin hurling over the last decade

If the same was applied to the Ulster Counties ,then you would see much improved Derry, Down and Armagh teams.

It's a case of getting these teams up to standard, and with improved coaching etc from underage level there no reason they can't grow like Dublin, with the improved fundings playing Antrim will benefit them.

"If these other counties in Ulster are supposed to be learning from this then its taking them a hell of a long time."
Again it's due to lack of coaching and funding etc, once a team takes a step forward, ie Down in the past, Armagh currently, they aren't backed by the Ulster concil or GAA to push forward to the next stage, and hence slip back to square one each time.

To make a competive Ulster withdrawing Antrim would only leave non ambitious teams playing for a meaningless cup. Keeping Antrim with the teams ambitious of beating them to get the cup, is better to push the teams to a higher level. Plus the Ulster Concile need to back the teams so they can keep stepping forward, and not one step forward and then one step back as in the past which has lead to the stagnation.

by Gaelic-Warrior Thu 30 Jun 2011, 5:12 pm

Exactly Kingshu, lesser Hurling counties are not getting the necessary backing needed to go to the next level. Some counties have a smaller population also which means a limited pool of players and the fact that this may limit them to focusing on only one code i.e. the one they are best at, so not all counties would be able to do a Dublin imo.

I'd like to see a more level field in Hurling with the provincial champs returned to normal, well actually I'd like to see a better setup overall. But atm that's not possible as keeping Antrim in Ulster keeps it as is which is other counties making up the numbers with the saffrons running riot and winning most of the titles with mabye the odd exception. It won't do much good having one or two Ulster teams playing Antrim per year and the saffrons only coming in at the semis.

Get the county boards to back struggling codes as much as possible, obviously in areas with smaller populations it will be harder, do what they did with Dublin accross the country and then, when improvements are being made, bring in the big guns.

by patrick91 Thu 30 Jun 2011, 6:59 pm

antrim playing in ulster will hurt teams like armagh who make the final and have no chance of winning and it shows how much antrim care 11 changes from the qualifers. keep antrim in leinster and give the ulster champions a quarter final or phase 3/4 qualifer give them something to play for.

by RebelBhoy Thu 30 Jun 2011, 7:37 pm

patrick91 wrote: give them something to play for.

....The Ulster title.

right now Antrim are well ahead but it isn't exactly light years. Taking on and beating Antrim in a one off game is, right now, a legitimate and perfectly valid target for at least 4 of the other 9 counties competing in Ulster. Catching up to these 4 is a legitimate target for the other 5.

Tyrone and Donegal are not too far apart in ability and that'll be a huge benefit to both.

Beat Antrim once and people take notice. Beat them 2 times and you can make a case for inclusion at another level.

Giving teams 'something to play for' means nothing at all unless you are going to help them compete.

by patrick91 Thu 30 Jun 2011, 8:05 pm

a provincal title that ends there its meaningless really. giving them the chance to take on the bigger counties in a knockout championship match would be helpful and encourage more participation in hurling in ulster. seeing a team like cork waterford etc up in derry newry or armagh would draw crowds so the gaa would win anyway.

dosent make sense though allowing antrim to turn up to win a trophy each year. the ulster final should be armagh v down.

by RebelBhoy Thu 30 Jun 2011, 10:35 pm

I doubt it would, nobody would give a damn. They don't care about competitive matches now. No reason to suspect they'd turn up to see a massacre.

by patrick91 Thu 30 Jun 2011, 11:12 pm

ur attuide reminds me of the gaa sure who cares about hurling outside leinster and munster it would take too much time money and effort to sort out so why bother.

when you teams a chance they will preform antrim made the all-ireland final in 1989 if they did it this year it would be one of the biggest shocks ever it wont happen anytime soon because the gaa dont care about hurling outside the south and east.

by RebelBhoy Thu 30 Jun 2011, 11:25 pm

Antrim got to the 89 final because there was no back door back then. They had an ok team with a handy ulster title, a nonsense Quarter-Final and a good result in the semi. That couldn't happen in this era.

by RebelBhoy Thu 30 Jun 2011, 11:33 pm

patrick91 wrote:ur attitude reminds me of the gaa sure who cares about hurling outside leinster and munster it would take too much time money and effort to sort out so why bother.

where did you get that from?

Ulster hurling is in the doldrums and the Ulster council do nothing to help it. The county boards actively, if not deliberately, hinder it and you'd prefer to suggest that I have no interest in resolving that. I'd happily stick a hot knife in every football in the province if I thought that was the answer. I'd happily give a Qualifier spot to the Ulster champs if I thought for a second that the carrot of an almighty battering was the answer. It isn't.

by patrick91 Fri 01 Jul 2011, 12:27 am

assuming no one would give a damm with out trying something first is poor attuide.

you say hammerings and batterings but why are we seeing these hammerings and batterings? having a 3/4 tier system hasent worked imo if anything its moved the elite farther away from the middle and the middle farther away from the bottom tier. i thought the aim was to do the complete opposite.

clare a divison 4 side almost took out down all-ireland finalists only for a last minute scramble a small team with nothing to play for had the belief just denied if this was hurling these sides couldnt meet. playing with and being around great teams like cork and kerry give them that belief they learned from tough days.

by RebelBhoy Fri 01 Jul 2011, 1:10 am

There would be hammerings and batterings because the Ulster council and the various county boards have been totally and utterly negligent towards hurling.

Your suggestion has an ulster champion (not including antrim) getting a last 8 or last 16 spot where they have a 5% chance of getting within 12 points, let alone entertain thoughts of getting a result. They will learn nothing if they don't have the capacity to learn and unless the building blocks are in place then the carrot of a last 8 or 16 place means nothing at all only the chance to get savaged.

The Ulster council needs to address this in the first instance, then the county boards.

As critical as I am of Ulster hurling, they have the opportunity to rescue it right here. Counties can build to get an Ulster title. The challenge then is to do it again and then they can shout from the rooftops that they want in.

Kerry have earned the right to decide their own destiny by staying with it. They can enter the Munster championship and hope to compete and maybe get a run at the back door. Dublin have built for the last 10/12 years. Ulster counties have destroyed their own chances yet you are talking about giving gifts to spoiled children who do nothing deserve it. Armagh stand alone as the county that looks like doing anything to compete against Antrim and lo and behold, they reach the final. Derry beat Down at every level apart from snr, but you know that day is coming and that is just a battle of who has neglected hurling more. Down has a tradition of hurling.....now look. Tyrone took a conscious decision to neglect hurling man years ago. now battling with Donegal for trinkets.

Monaghan, Fermanagh ...are they bothered? London could challenge Derry, Armagh and Down right now but they must be considered a case apart

Make the decision to fix it now instead of dreaming about getting pointless batterings and patting lads on the back for turning up.

by Hartley Fri 01 Jul 2011, 2:55 pm

I think this UHC is unfair on Antrim. We're the only county in hurling or football that has to take part in TWO provincial championships. It's like Celtic and Rangers joining the English Premier League but still competiting in the SPL! I guess Armagh do though have a chance on Sunday now we're putting out our reserve team with 11 changes! Well even if Armagh get the cup they'll get it out of Antrim having bigger fish to fry.

by RebelBhoy Fri 01 Jul 2011, 3:06 pm

But if they win it again, you'd say that Antrim better start tending to their own garden....right?

by patrick91 Fri 01 Jul 2011, 3:11 pm

the point i was trying to make was antrim in 1989 the door was open to make the final the door is closed to armagh down derry etc.

if the door was open there would be hammerings for the next number of years but im sure you know you cant fix a problem at senior leval you must start young and build from there.

take tyrone for example 48 football clubs and only a handful of hurling how do you atract young players into hurling when the the years is built around playing donegal etc and the football is about winning the all-ireland.

opening the door for smaller teams for the chance to take on the greats in a quarter final would encourage numbers to join hurling clubs with the dream of playing for your county in croke park against the greats of tipperary and killkenny.

its not something that could be fixed overnight its a long process but not doing nothing atall is worse than entering a long process.

you sound like the ulster champions would be giving something for nothing that would not be the case they would have to work hard to earn their spot it wouldnt just be handed down.

by Hartley Fri 01 Jul 2011, 3:14 pm

If Armagh win UHC twice then they should try and win it once while also trying to take part in the LHC and MacCarthy Cup series!

(Ps I bet your wife gets her way with the tennis and you end up online for Cork v Kerry!)

by RebelBhoy Fri 01 Jul 2011, 3:24 pm

Of course they'd be getting something for nothing. They'd beat a pile of muck and then get battered because they are the least muck of all the Ulster sides (sans Antrim).

Your plan is plain crazy. Reward counties for investing no time and no effort into Hurling with a nice big game against a nice big county who will knock the proverbial out of them. What is behind this? "you might get a nice hammering from Ofally".
Why would that make them bother any more or any less with Hurling?

by patrick91 Fri 01 Jul 2011, 3:41 pm

on the something for nothing muster football gets perfect dates compared to the rest 3 weeks to prepare for the quarters and 2 for the qualifer cork and kerry seeded for 3/4 years still dont know why? souldnt it be all provincal finals be played on the same weekend.

the dubs took hammerings not so long ago and look at them now league champions and on coarse to win leinster a win oiver killkenny would be no major shock. they didnt give up and with a county with football success you could understand young players taking up football.

my plan might be crazy stupid and not worth the time but you really saying say 20 years time with the current system hurling will be more competive than it is now?

by RebelBhoy Fri 01 Jul 2011, 4:01 pm

Yes, Provincial finals should be played on the same weekend.

patrick91 wrote: but you really saying say 20 years time with the current system hurling will be more competive than it is now?

Do you even bother reading the posts?

Did Dublin;

A) Learn from their annual hammering and all of a sudden the penny dropped?
2) Put structures in place to develop a competitive side over the course of a decade?

by patrick91 Fri 01 Jul 2011, 4:19 pm

but if the door was closed to dublin like derry armagh down was it would have taken alot longer than it did to get the dubs were they are right now.

and what im saying is not from a ulster point of view hurling in connacht is just as underprivilaged as ulster.

by RebelBhoy Fri 01 Jul 2011, 4:31 pm

Like I say, win Ulster and win it again and then shout from the rooftops that you want to get on the big stage. You couldn't get denied then. You cannot put in place the carrot and then tell folk to go away and learn how to hurl. Learn the craft first and then worry about competing. It is what the lower tournaments and the league are there for.

Systematic and sustained hammerings have a negative effect

by RebelBhoy Fri 01 Jul 2011, 4:32 pm

and yeah, connacht are just as bad. You should both be ashamed

by patrick91 Fri 01 Jul 2011, 5:08 pm

RebelBhoy wrote:Systematic and sustained hammerings have a negative effect

that can go both ways to be fair. same as losing by a point having gave everything. teams are different some cope others dont the greatness of a team usually is how they cope with defeat or certain circumstances.

by RebelBhoy Fri 01 Jul 2011, 5:19 pm

To be fair....no....it can't.

Why are you using the words great in this context|? what has great got to do with anything. These are poor sides, from poor counties with no structures at all. You think a nice day for Armagh is gonna ge getting laced by 50 points by Waterford one year and Galway the next? That is just nonsense. Right now Armagh can have a legitimate lash against Antrim reserves. their next aim has to be competing in the Christy Ring. It will take 3 years minimum to find their feet in that.

TO FIND THEIR FEET!!! Not to challenge, to not get thumped every game. Its far from great those lads are, and they know it..

by patrick91 Fri 01 Jul 2011, 5:39 pm

didn cork hammer tipperary in munster and then tipperary won the all-ireland?

to be honest i dont think your caring is towards an armagh or ulster/connacht team hammering its more you and many in the gaa world in perticular leinster and munster feel a smaller county wouldnt deserve their place instread of a top team knocked out in the qualifers who would be more deserving and give the provincal champions/runner up more of a game.

by John Cregan Fri 01 Jul 2011, 8:20 pm

Patrick,
Are you seriously suggesting a place in the All Ireland Semis for the Ulster Hurling champions??
That's crazy...............if Down or Armagh want a place in the Liam McCarthy then they have to go and win the Christy Ring................personally, i dont believe Antrim should be allowed play the Ulster championship when they also play in Leinster. I dont see the point.................

by patrick91 Fri 01 Jul 2011, 8:50 pm

quarter finals with the old system of 4 games or final phase qualifer. you could say connacht football is really poor and shouldnt deserve a quarter final place but fair is fair thats why we have 4 provinces.

by John Cregan Fri 01 Jul 2011, 9:40 pm

But surely the system is now fairer to all.....................you have 2 phases(Leinster & Munster) and and the best teams in the country make the final 6......................id be heading more open draw than back to giving a team a spot in a QF based on geography.................

by Hartley Fri 01 Jul 2011, 9:48 pm

Hey - Armagh's chances improve by the hour - another first teamer out. That means 12 of those who started last week v Carlow in the MacCarthy Cup will be missing come Sunday. Make no mistake about it it's Armagh versus Antrim's reserves. This is our hurlers 5th game of the Championship season and 3rd in consecutive weeks.

by John Cregan Sat 02 Jul 2011, 9:39 am

Hartley,
It's not your hurlers 5th game of the championship, it's your 2nd of the Ulster Ch'ship which begs the question...why are you taking part in this farce??

by Hartley Sun 03 Jul 2011, 8:42 pm

John, 1) Beat Laois in LHC 2) Lost to Wexford in LHC 3) Beat Westmeath in Qualifiers 4) Beat Carlow in Qualifiers 5) Beat Armagh in USC. That's 5 games in my view?

I do agree though we should pull out of UHC.

by Ar aghaidh le cheile Tue 05 Jul 2011, 10:54 am

Kilkenny seven in a row in Leinster.

Have Kilkenny outgrown Leinster?

by bluemoda Tue 05 Jul 2011, 11:11 am

If they have, where could they go? Munster don't want them. Munster is tough enough as it is.

by dublfcynwa Tue 05 Jul 2011, 11:23 am

Ar aghaidh le cheile wrote:Kilkenny seven in a row in Leinster.

Have Kilkenny outgrown Leinster?

No they are just one of the greatest hurling team's ever to play the game, that's all. And you add to that the recent demsie of Wexford and Offaly then that's why they have won 7 in a row but im sure Wexford and Offaly will be back in year or two because they are traditional hurling county's with decent structure's in place. I could'nt say the same any Ulster team apart from Antrim.

by Ar aghaidh le cheile Tue 05 Jul 2011, 11:24 am

Blue
Sorry more of sarcastic post given the stream of Antrim are to big for Ulster after 10 in a row. If or when Kilkenny make it to 10 in a row does that make the Leinster championship worthless.

Despite the money being pumped into Dublin Hurling over the years when it really matters i.e. championship there is only one winner.

I know I have made the same point before but with competiton only evident in one Province how long before the Liam McCarthy is a competition between two or three Munster counties and Kilkenny?

by dublfcynwa Tue 05 Jul 2011, 1:43 pm

Ar aghaidh le cheile wrote:Blue
Sorry more of sarcastic post given the stream of Antrim are to big for Ulster after 10 in a row. If or when Kilkenny make it to 10 in a row does that make the Leinster championship worthless.

Despite the money being pumped into Dublin Hurling over the years when it really matters i.e. championship there is only one winner.

I know I have made the same point before but with competiton only evident in one Province how long before the Liam McCarthy is a competition between two or three Munster counties and Kilkenny?

God you talk some Poopie. Im starting to wonder if you actually know anything about hurling.. We have gone over this before and im not getting into it again.

"Despite the money being pumped into Dublin hurling" So your saying Dublin are'nt improving??? We beat Kilkenny in the minor, we are in the final in the u21, first time ever we were in the three finals. Kilkenny are a far better and far more experienced team than Dublin at the moment that's why they won.

by Ar aghaidh le cheile Tue 05 Jul 2011, 3:14 pm

While minor and u-21 titles are nice they guarantee nothing.
How long has the Dublin hurling project been running.
The current set up is a closed shop and for loads of reasons will continue to be so.
Open it to everybody through whatever format is best or continue to watch it die.
There will be no break through teams as happened in football or maybe that is what some want.
One of my best days out was going to see a hurling game Down play Cork in Croke in the early 90's. Possibly one of the best Down hurling teams is it a coincidence.

by RebelBhoy Tue 05 Jul 2011, 3:41 pm

10 years. a load of their players have been on the development panel for 10 years. the conversion rate from that panel is very impressive..

Is it any coincidence that Armagh are going in the right direction and Down are going backwards?

by Ar aghaidh le cheile Tue 05 Jul 2011, 3:54 pm

Rebel
The counter argument is that the Ulster Hurling title means nothing as evidenced by the disrespect Antrim showed it.
Make it meaningful give the winners some prospect of advancement and perhaps the lesser ulster counties may make an effort.

by RebelBhoy Tue 05 Jul 2011, 4:14 pm

why?

Get better.
Make an effort to get better.

Ulster have disrespected Hurling by being negligent in the upkeep of the game. That doesn't deserve a reward.

by Hartley Tue 05 Jul 2011, 4:47 pm

Antrim have not disrepected Ulster hurling - We are Ulster hurling!!!

Additionally people sometimes lambast Ulster hurling but what about Connacht hurling when you take out Galway?

What about much of Leinster when you take out Kilkenny?

The problems with hurling are way more profound than just Ulster hurling!

by bluemoda Tue 05 Jul 2011, 5:37 pm

Personally, I don't think another cent should be spent on promoting hurling in Ulster or Connacht. Instead, priority should be give to the core counties, by this I mean the likes of Wexford, Carlow, Antrim, Westmeath, Offaly, Laois and Kerry. Counties with the structures already in place but need to push on to be truly competitive. Hurling needs these counties to be competitive and all hurling funds should be diverted to these core counties to strengthen and expand their game. If this doesn't happen, we are in danger of losing these counties to football and then there is no way back. The bigger counties can mostly take care of themselves. When the core counties are truly competitive, expansion to other counties can then be considered. A hurling board, under the auspices of the GAA, should be set up to deal with this specificially.

Before anyone accuses me of bias, consider that the GAA has been in existence for over 130 years and the Ulster and Connacht provincial boards have done nothing to promote the game. In fact, they even managed to lose some counties where hurling was once popular, notable, Donegal and Mayo. Until such time that Ulster and Connacht put the structures, from their own funds, in place, not another cent should be wasted.

For the protection and development of hurling, all avenues need to be considered, even professionalism. Before you hoot with laughter, if you look to the small countries in Europes, I'm thinking of Czech Rep, Slovenia and Slovakia. All there countries have a similar or smaller population to ours and all manage to support three profession sports leagues, basketball, ice hockey and soccer. If they can do it, why can't we. Just because its been ingrained in us that the ethos of the GAA is amatuer doesn't mean that professionalism should be dismissed. It may be the only way to protect hurling into the future and hurling's protection is my only concern and how it's done is secondary.

Finally, Ulster should stop complaining of their small playing base. They do have a large, and this may be contentious, population within their respective borders, most of whom are hardly aware of hurling's existence. Like I said, all avenues have to be explored..........

by RebelBhoy Tue 05 Jul 2011, 10:23 pm

I wouldnt go that far, but I would neuter the UC and CC and impose rule from Croker. Make them fix it.

by Ar aghaidh le cheile Tue 05 Jul 2011, 10:30 pm

Rebel
Living in Derry you should know better than many that direct rule doesnt work up here

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