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Win a Major or be world Number 1?

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ralphjohn69
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Which would you rather have done?

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Post by Adam D Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:25 pm

First topic message reminder :

Following on from the best player to never win a major tournament thread, I though I would throw open a question for you all to think about and discuss.

Lets imagine you are a retiring pro golfer - what would mean more to you:

Having one a major but not been world number 1
Not having won a major but you had been the worlds number 1 ranked golfer

So which would you go for? Consistency or 15 minutes? Lee Westwood or Paul Laurie?

Lets hear your thoughts.

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Post by JDandfries Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:04 pm

D4

I believe that it is possible to be number one ranked without ever winning a single tournement, so for me winning a major far out weights being world number one (in golf anyway)

As for would i rather have John Daly's career or Westwoods, well if Westwood doesnt win a major, I would far rather be described as two time major winner, than a former World #1. By a long shot!!!

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Post by Rossa Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:33 pm

Out of Westwood's career (No.1 no Major) or being winning 1 Major but other than that being an also ran (Curtis, Micheel, Hamilton etc) I'd rather have Westwood's Career. However, I'd rather have Mickelson's Career (Multiple Major Winner - World Class Golfer - but never No. 1) than Westwood's...

So in short, i'd rather be No.1 than a one major wonder (I don't necessarily include all golfer who have just won 1, i'm more talking about suprise winners), but I'd rather have 1 or more Majors and be a 'world player' than just a world player who was No.1...

I guess it the difference between these two lists... which one would you rather be on?

Best player never to win a Major (eg Garcia, Monty, Westwood).
Worst player to win a Major (eg Curtis, Micheel, Hamilton).

I'd rather be on the first, but i'd rather have a major and not be world number 1 as long as my name was never even mentioned wrt the second (Toms, Kite, DLIII, Couples, Furyk etc)
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Post by MustPuttBetter Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:36 pm

So both then, Rossa?? Laugh
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Post by beninho Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:43 pm

Why is Ben curtis picked as one of the worst major winners, he has won twice on the pga tour apart from his Open win, which is better then a fair few top players.

If you get to number one in the world, when you fall from that position your always classed as former number 1 golfer joe bloggs but you could win 1 major 10 years ago and your always classed as major winner joe bloggs.

Its all about the record books.

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Post by Rossa Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:44 pm

MustPuttBetter wrote:So both then, Rossa?? Laugh

I guess so...

I'd rather a a good solid consistent golf career the at took me to number 1 in the world but never to major win rather an freak 4 days that won me a major in a career of mediocrity put it that way...
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Post by Rossa Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:48 pm

Ben Curtis has had a pretty mediocre career for a major winner in my opinion...
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Post by kwinigolfer Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:52 pm

Trying to think of Major Champions who have not won another event on a Major Tour.
Micheel must be one, Orville Moody another (although he enjoyed great Snior Tour success!) , but most Major Champs actually have a pretty decent CV, even if not at the very top level.

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Post by MustPuttBetter Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:00 pm

Bentinho, what's the difference between being a former number one and a former Major winner??
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Post by drive4show Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:02 pm

kwini

Jeff Sluman perhaps? Not sure, might be one.

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Post by beninho Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:19 pm

If you are not number one you are a former number 1 and always will be, unless of course you are number 1 again.

But major winners are not usually called former major winners. The record books will show that they are a major winner for 2001 or whatever. People dont say former major winner Jack Nicklaus, but they tend to say 19 (?) time major winner Jack Nicklaus.

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Post by MustPuttBetter Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:23 pm

Bentinho - fair point but 'former Open champion' and 'former world number 1' are pretty much on a par?
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Post by kwinigolfer Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:23 pm

Slu had a pretty good career, six wins, 15 second places including 2nd place in Tom Kite's 1992 US Open win, and arguably unlucky to have been the distracted play-off loser in Sandy Lyle's Players Championship (when some lunatic jumped into the pond as he was lining up a short birdie putt in the Play-Off, which he subsequently missed).
His PGA was his first win however.

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Post by MustPuttBetter Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:23 pm

Ps Jack Nicklaus = 18
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Post by MustPuttBetter Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:37 pm

Kwini, Claude Harmon only won one other PGA event aside from the Masters - that being the Miami International Fourball with Pete Cooper. If you ask me that's not a real tournament and at best, as a team event, it's only half a win!
So Orville Moody aside, at 0.5 other wins i think Harmon is the closest you're going to get!
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Post by JDandfries Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:37 pm

In golf, you would tend to be described as The 1997 Open Champion, or former number 1.

So not certain they are held in the same regard just given by the way they would be announced

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Post by ralphjohn69 Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:44 pm

Andy North with 3 tour wins, of which 2 were US Opens, must win his own category of worst player to have won 2 majors!

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Post by kwinigolfer Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:53 pm

ralph,
But he's one of the very best commentators and pundits around! Always comes across as a great bloke too. Big mate of Tom Watson.

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Post by Diggers Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:58 pm

So if we can say that of Andy North are we allowed to say that with no WGC wins, majors or any win over a full field of his peers that Lee Westwood is the worst player ever to be world number 1 ?
Only fair really that if you can list worst major winners that you can also debate the same for the number ones.

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Post by ralphjohn69 Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:03 pm

Kwini,
Agreed, however his golfing CV is a bit strange! Maybe my statement was a bit harsh, I'd certainly take his career!

Diggers,
Possibly we are; westwood, for all his consistency and multiple wins in other events, has come up short when it really matters, ie. winning a major when in contention.

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Post by JDandfries Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:06 pm

I am not sure who the other No 1's have been, but I reckon he or Luke Donald is probably the worst to be number one!

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Post by MustPuttBetter Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:07 pm

Digs, surely that award has to go to Tom Lehman???
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Post by beninho Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:09 pm

IS Lee Westword a worse golfer then Fred Couples?

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Post by SmithersJones Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:09 pm

So Andy North is bad because he did virtually nothing BUT win a major, yet LW is bad because he's done everything else? MYFMU
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Post by Diggers Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:13 pm

Yeah I'll give you that one MPB.

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Post by Diggers Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:16 pm

Who on here said Westwood was bad. You look at a list of players ..in the case who made number one....and say which were the better one in that list.
Andy North wasnt a bad golfer but it seems you have no problem debating who was the worst major winner.
I cant see the difference personally.

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Post by Shotrock Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:17 pm

From a purely financial (endorsement) standpoint, it's more lucrative to be world #1 than having won a single major. Being #1 without a major puts you (until recently) in some pretty unique company. The luckiest major winner I ever witnessed was Paul Lawrie. JV could have 8-ironed his way to victory on the 72nd hole.

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Post by Shotrock Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:21 pm

Andy North didn't win a major, he won TWO majors. That's rare air - and a comet that passed quickly into the night.

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Post by JDandfries Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:27 pm

Shotrock wrote:From a purely financial (endorsement) standpoint, it's more lucrative to be world #1 than having won a single major. Being #1 without a major puts you (until recently) in some pretty unique company. The luckiest major winner I ever witnessed was Paul Lawrie. JV could have 8-ironed his way to victory on the 72nd hole.


That is not actually true, Many years ago, on the back of winning a major, they estimated you would earn around £15m in total, Now, if Lee Westwood wins a major, he gets a £10m payout from Dunlop, and if Gareth maybin wins one, he gets £56 million.

How long do the endorsements last if you are number 1? Could be just a few weeks if you get knocked off top spot, and you are guarenteed at least a year of being a major champion

I don't deem anyone who has won a mjor to have been lucky, certainly not Paul Lawrie who shot an amazing last round given the conditions, and was awesome in the playoff!

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Post by Faldono1fan Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:49 pm

This is certainly dividing opinion. I have gone for the major, but because I still think it is the main criteria for measuring greatness. That said it is not the only criteria. Worldwide wins and achievements have to be considered as well. Players like Andy North who won 2 US opens (and not alot else) will never be regarded as great, but you can't take what they have achieved away from them. For all that Monty achieved, the fact he hasn't won a major will always mean that something is missing from his CV.

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Post by Shotrock Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:51 pm

Interesting info on the Westwood payout. Thanks for that. Still, I think ones marketability is better overall (in the longer run) with a World #1 ranking than a single major. Hopefully for Westwood and Donald they'll have both soon.

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Post by sharrison01 Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:57 pm

Another point that I do not believe has been mentioned is the exemption that comes with winning a major. If you reach the number one spot and plummet down the rankings as your career comes to an end or you have a dip in form then you will only be able to play the majors via the usual qualifying.

I think that The Open and Masters at least (not sure on the other two) offer lifetime exemptions for entry. Please correct me if I'm wrong as I know that the various major organisers have been debating lifetime exemptions in recent years, but assuming a lifetime exemption you will have an annual income from this and people will always be reminded of your past success.

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Post by Faldono1fan Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:02 pm

Nice to see Michael Campbell playing a bit better these days. Again a one time major winner who has been living off his exemptions for some time. A player who totally lost his way. A bit like Duval and Baker-Finch in that respect.

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Post by sharrison01 Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:07 pm

Duval's fall from grace was quite amazing - it happened so quickly!

I think that his 59 in the Bob Hope was probably the best round of golf that I've seen - his irons and wedges were so good that he hardly had a putt!

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Post by beninho Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:19 pm

I am sure i read that Duval just lost interest in golf, and wanted to enjoy himself by doing other things, and not focusing just on the game.

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Post by JDandfries Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:22 pm

It isonly better in the long run, if you are world number one for a long time, being world number one for 6 weeks, as opposed to Open Chamion for a year, isnt going to earn you anywhere near as much.

Say Donald drops down to 2 this week and Martin Kaymer wins the Open....

Who will get more advertising and endorsements?

The current Open Champion, or former world number 1??

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Post by JPX Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:26 pm

Donald triggered some enhancements from his Mizuno contract when he achieved number status, hense their advertising drive parading him as no. 1.

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Post by Faldono1fan Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:30 pm

Another comparison is that to a player like Bill Rogers who won the open in 1981 at RSG. He won a total of 6 times in his career and 4 wins in 1981. Also one of his wins was the 1979 world matchplay. His career in terms of sucess was very condensed, but he won a major. Would that be more frustrating than someone like Monty who was very successful over a number of years, but never won a major. Who would be remembered as being the better player?

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Post by SmithersJones Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:47 pm

Faldono1fan wrote:Another comparison is that to a player like Bill Rogers who won the open in 1981 at RSG. He won a total of 6 times in his career and 4 wins in 1981. Also one of his wins was the 1979 world matchplay. His career in terms of sucess was very condensed, but he won a major. Would that be more frustrating than someone like Monty who was very successful over a number of years, but never won a major. Who would be remembered as being the better player?

Had the world ranking system been in place then, I'd venture to suggest he'd have reached number one some time in late '81 with that record.
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Post by NedB-H Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:04 pm

Rossa wrote:Ben Curtis has had a pretty mediocre career for a major winner in my opinion...
Mediocre yes, but he still gets a tough rap. He qualified for a RC independently of his major win, which a lot of guys never do.


What about Jerry Pate's career? Won a major at 22, and 7 tournaments after that, but never won again after his 30th birthday...

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Post by Faldono1fan Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:09 pm

Smithers - Possibly Rogers may have got to World No 1,but Watson won the masters that year and 2 other tour events so would have depended on a number of factors.

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Post by SmithersJones Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:12 pm

Faldono1fan wrote:Smithers - Possibly Rogers may have got to World No 1,but Watson won the masters that year and 2 other tour events so would have depended on a number of factors.

Close call I imagine, depends on how strong the fields were in their respective (other) wins. Watson would have had more points to lose, presumably.
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Post by Rossa Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:15 pm

Pretty solid career for Jerry Pate, 10 other top 10s in majors, as you say 7 other wins on the PGA Tour... stange that he didn't win after 30 but but he's not the only one to just stop winning...
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Post by kwinigolfer Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:35 pm

Jerry Pate scarcely played competitively after he turned 30, not because he didn't want to but because of a succession of debilitating injuries which didn't really start to clear up until well into his forties.
Personally, I'd've preferred he played because he was dreadful in the commentary booth.

Bill Rogers just found he preferred the quiet life instead of the spotlight. Nothing wrong with that either.

He still reminds me of my favourite Question Of Sport exchange:

Coleman: And who is this mystery guest (you know, photographs flipped through from weird angles)?

Langer: Das ist Bill Rogers.

Coleman: Cor, didn't think anyone would get that one.

Langer: I saw you filming it!

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Post by Hibbz Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:28 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:Jerry Pate scarcely played competitively after he turned 30, not because he didn't want to but because of a succession of debilitating injuries which didn't really start to clear up until well into his forties.
Personally, I'd've preferred he played because he was dreadful in the commentary booth.

Bill Rogers just found he preferred the quiet life instead of the spotlight. Nothing wrong with that either.

He still reminds me of my favourite Question Of Sport exchange:

Coleman: And who is this mystery guest (you know, photographs flipped through from weird angles)?

Langer: Das ist Bill Rogers.

Coleman: Cor, didn't think anyone would get that one.

Langer: I saw you filming it!

I remember that. It was brilliant. Made even more so by the wonderful, understated Langer. I still worship Bernhard Langer.

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Post by Noshankingtonite Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:17 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:Jerry Pate scarcely played competitively after he turned 30, not because he didn't want to but because of a succession of debilitating injuries which didn't really start to clear up until well into his forties.
Personally, I'd've preferred he played because he was dreadful in the commentary booth.

Bill Rogers just found he preferred the quiet life instead of the spotlight. Nothing wrong with that either.

He still reminds me of my favourite Question Of Sport exchange:

Coleman: And who is this mystery guest (you know, photographs flipped through from weird angles)?

Langer: Das ist Bill Rogers.

Coleman: Cor, didn't think anyone would get that one.

Langer: I saw you filming it!


clap Laugh Classic!
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Post by Yadsendew Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:38 pm

In my view, Major always comes first, I've not often heard of the bloke that used to be number one so many years ago it's just not a comment that comes up that much in golfing commentaries . Now Major winner yes. Tod Hamilton will be, and it will be mentioned time and time again, although he is unlikely to ever get to anywhere near number 1 in the world.

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Post by Davie Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:40 pm

Is just being remembered everything though? Or would you feel better yourself to have achieved more over more than 4 days.

People "remember" Doug Sanders and Jean Van Der Veldt too - but for the wrong reasons. I suspect Todd Hamilton is remembered for the wrong reasons

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Post by Yadsendew Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:49 pm

Davie wrote:Is just being remembered everything though? Or would you feel better yourself to have achieved more over more than 4 days.

People "remember" Doug Sanders and Jean Van Der Veldt too - but for the wrong reasons. I suspect Todd Hamilton is remembered for the wrong reasons

Maybe Davie - but I'd rather be remembered as the unlikely recipient of a Major than stigmatized with the label of never winning or even worse throwing one away. Nevertheless being number one in the world is quickly forgotten.

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Post by kwinigolfer Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:52 pm

A bit unfair to Todd Hamilton there Davie, don't you think? If his name was Todd Ozaki I think he'd get a lot more credit, he's got about 15 wins in Asia, mostly on the Japan Tour, and it's hardly as if his win was lucky, he thoroughly deserved it. Unfortunately from an Els admirer.

(I bet Sanders is known for his flamboyant (ugly) clothes and his nightlife activities at least as much as for missing a 3-footer . . . . )

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Join date : 2011-05-18
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