Does Randy Orton draw as champion?

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Does Randy Orton draw as champion?

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Post by bretmeharty on Thu 07 Jul 2011, 7:40 pm

Randy Orton it's no doubt that as the company stands right now he is cemented as the no.2 babyface in the company, if it's because he genuinely deserves it or its down to the fact he's been forced down our throats is also up for debate, but what I want to do is analyse if Orton makes money and ratings as a champ.

The reason I ask this is the report coming out last week on the ratings for smackdown were at an all time low and in the past ratings have dropped when Orton as had the strap also.
Is the viper at his most drawing power when he is his heelish persona and not when he's going around kissing babies.


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Post by bretmeharty on Thu 07 Jul 2011, 7:43 pm

My ansnwer is no he does not IMO he's far better as the heel chasing the title - ala Wrestlemania 25

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Post by Kay Fabe on Thu 07 Jul 2011, 9:21 pm

He never drew as a heel champion, ratings for last week shouldn't be considered, they are always dire for July 4th weekend, Orton as champ isn't the problem, the problem is he's the only genuine name working SD!

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Post by bretmeharty on Thu 07 Jul 2011, 9:26 pm

Why do you think he never drew as a heel champ gaff?, I would say there's more about him as a heel champ

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Post by Kay Fabe on Thu 07 Jul 2011, 9:39 pm

For me it was always the 180 the WWE did when he was a heel champ, when he was chasing it he was sick, twisted, strong and had balls, when he won the title he would be booked like a wimp, no-one wanted to see him run away, they wanted to see him do what got him to the top in the first place

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Post by Jammy31 on Thu 07 Jul 2011, 9:56 pm

To be honest, I think that he has lost credibility as a champion to me...I really don't know my reason for this, but I just dont think he stands....
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Post by bretmeharty on Thu 07 Jul 2011, 10:01 pm

That's the thing with WWE they always seem to book all their heel champs weak and they all lose that momentum that got them there in the first place

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Post by Ché Guerrero on Thu 07 Jul 2011, 10:07 pm

I became a fan of Orton before being aware of the IWC/becoming a so called smark, so I think I can speak as a casual fan on this issue. He along with Jeff Hardy was the wrestler that drew me to watch wrestling on a weekly basis and this was when he was still heel. I always thought he was presentedly strongly for instance he went cleanly over HHH and Cena at wrestlemania-that i believe speaks volumes. Also i would cite the fact he got the biggest pop as a face on Raw consistently even with Cena still on the show.


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Post by talkingpoint on Thu 07 Jul 2011, 10:45 pm

Orton to me is an enigma. He is currently a face yet everything about his persona is heelish - his monikers, his move set, his music... everything! I mean the first thing he did after winning the WHC last year at NOC was to punt Jericho in the head and kayfabe put him out of action. That is the action of a heel yet fans always seem to be cheering for him. Personally I don't have much respect for him because he's such a company man. Orton imo is not a wrestler. He's the epitome of a WWE superstar. In that respect he's exactly like Cena. I know wrestling is a performance art and therefore no one truly wins a world championship on athleticism and talent alone but with each championship they become more hollow. So you've been custom made in WWE developmental; you've been pushed to the moon and given multiple world titles, it's just all so artificial.

The WWE is strange - rather than seeing world champions from other promotions as top draws of the future they seem to punish them. In any other job or profession previous experience is essential. Yet it seems in the WWE it's frowned upon. ROH, TNA wherever it might be, imo if a wrestler has made his way to the top of one promotion then I believe he has earnt the right to compete in the WWE for its ultimate prize. But in the WWE its all about image not talent and so guys like AJ Styles, Davey Richards etc are overlooked. I'm not saying WWE wouldn't hire them but look at the likes of Daniel Bryan - he's wasted by the WWE and will probably never win a world title, despite being voted the best wrestler two years in a row by the IWC.

So yeah Orton doesn't do anything for me and I struggle to take him seriously as a champion, as I do Cena.

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Post by bretmeharty on Thu 07 Jul 2011, 11:04 pm

You make some good points there tp, Orton is a WWE superstar through and through and its a prime example of wwe not really listening to their fans in terms of what they want, and thats why I cant work out what Is Vince getting out of the punk situation and punk saying the things he said.
Is it just to aplease to the smart fans only to urine them off in the end.

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Post by Kay Fabe on Fri 08 Jul 2011, 2:02 am

Randy Orton is probably the best put together main event talent in America in my opinion, he isn't the best talker but he over does what he does say, apart from that though he just gets it, Orton could main event in the 80s and 90s, for me that means he gets it

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Post by Crimey on Fri 08 Jul 2011, 6:52 am

I really can't stand Orton, I find him excruciatingly boring. I think as a heel he was more interesting as a face, but it's the crowds fault of not going along with what is essentially a pantomine and cheering the villain which has made what I felt was a boring character into a awful, strange character.

I think Orton had all the momentum going into Wrestlemania 25, which was coincidently the last time I found him interesting, and they didn't pull the trigger properly with his match with Triple H and the match was a huge let down, and since then I have struggled to get into him at all.

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Post by liverbnz on Fri 08 Jul 2011, 10:29 am

Orton seems to always be one jigsaw piece short of the complete picture. He is lacking that little extra something which I can't really put my finger on - almost like he's hit his own glass ceiling put can't break through it. I can't say I ever look forward to any of his segments, promos or matches.

Also, I'm not really sure why there is a poll in this thread, he either draws of he doesn't. It's not really an opinion.

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Post by Beer on Fri 08 Jul 2011, 10:37 am

He lacks emotion.

One of the few things i like about Cena is that he can 'portray' emotion. Orton just looks bored most of the time. Or like Joey in friends when he's thinking.

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Post by bretmeharty on Fri 08 Jul 2011, 10:41 am

It's pretty simple liverbnz You either THINK he is a draw or you don't THINK he is a draw.

With-out the Actual figures of gate takings, merch and ratings to the person it's all just opinions isn't it?

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Post by DemonicTruthSpeaker on Fri 08 Jul 2011, 10:58 am

Orton's problem is a complete lack of any kind of viable, dangerous opponent on Smackdown.

Christian was given a joke 5 day reign, after years in the mid-card which just gives the message that he's not world title material.

Sheamus is such an important part of WWE he didn't even appear on the Mania 27 card.

Mark Henry is just awful (although his throw on the tech guy last week was darned impressive).

That's the Smackdown main event scene, and the rest of the card is mid-carders, one of which will receive the MITB contract and a push, unless they take the easy way out and give it to Sheamus.

Orton himself isn't a strong enough face character to pull in viewers, he needs a competitor who can be seen as a real threat to the title. Unfortunately, there just isn't anyone on Smackdown who can do that.

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Post by liverbnz on Fri 08 Jul 2011, 11:30 am

bretmeharty wrote:It's pretty simple liverbnz You either THINK he is a draw or you don't THINK he is a draw.

With-out the Actual figures of gate takings, merch and ratings to the person it's all just opinions isn't it?

Well if you are asking me if he draws me into the product, the answer is no.

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Post by crippledtart on Fri 08 Jul 2011, 11:39 am

I agree with liverbnz. Someone is either a draw or they are not. It's not subjective. You can't say "In my opinion Randy Orton is a draw" any more than you can say "In my opinion Smackdown's ratings are down".

Randy Orton gets a big ovation at live events, but I can't remember him ever affecting TV ratings or PPV buyrates, therefore he is not a draw.

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Post by bretmeharty on Fri 08 Jul 2011, 5:55 pm

Randy Orton gets a big ovation at live events, but I can't remember him ever affecting TV ratings or PPV buyrates, therefore he is not a draw. Someone is either a draw or they are not. It's not subjective. You can't say "In my opinion Randy Orton is a draw" any more than you can say "In my opinion Smackdown's ratings are down[/quote]

Well that's yours and livebirdz opinion, Ill tell ya this boards arrogance know's no bounds sometimes. The poll is split 50-50 as I type this so im justified in putting a poll and a debate on the "so called" fact


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Post by Crimey on Fri 08 Jul 2011, 5:58 pm

Bretmeharty, I think you're missing their point. Being a draw isn't about what people think of the person, being a draw means bringing in lots of money, or lots of viewers. That's the definition of 'draw', nothing to do with arrogance.

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Post by bretmeharty on Fri 08 Jul 2011, 6:12 pm

No i get it, Do i think orton makes alot money for wwe as champ, no i dont he draws more being the heel chasing the title but thats my opinion unless we see gate receipts etc.. in other words unless you see the whole income of wwe while orton is champ then you cant state as 100% fact he doesn't draw.

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Post by Crimey on Fri 08 Jul 2011, 6:14 pm

But neither can you say he does draw, which kinda makes the argument redundant as it would be everybody just making a different guess whether or not he makes money or not...which is what draw means.

However had the question been whether you like Orton, or he makes you want to watch WWE would be something that could actually be debated.

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Post by Brady12 on Sat 09 Jul 2011, 4:40 pm

Davieswasacrippledtart wrote:I agree with liverbnz. Someone is either a draw or they are not. It's not subjective. You can't say "In my opinion Randy Orton is a draw" any more than you can say "In my opinion Smackdown's ratings are down".

Randy Orton gets a big ovation at live events, but I can't remember him ever affecting TV ratings or PPV buyrates, therefore he is not a draw.

It's the ability to make money, someone the fans pay to see so I think it can be subjective

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Post by Gregers on Sat 09 Jul 2011, 4:41 pm

Yes, but Orton needs to go back to tweener IMO

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Post by BigPhil on Sat 09 Jul 2011, 7:56 pm

A lot of people remark on the fact that he doesn't seem to have the charisma to draw. I believe that if your interested in WWE you'd really think he can however if one is a passive WWE fan they may not see the buzz around him.

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Post by liverbnz on Mon 11 Jul 2011, 12:25 am

Brady12 wrote:
Davieswasacrippledtart wrote:I agree with liverbnz. Someone is either a draw or they are not. It's not subjective. You can't say "In my opinion Randy Orton is a draw" any more than you can say "In my opinion Smackdown's ratings are down".

Randy Orton gets a big ovation at live events, but I can't remember him ever affecting TV ratings or PPV buyrates, therefore he is not a draw.

It's the ability to make money, someone the fans pay to see so I think it can be subjective

That makes no sense. He either makes money or he doesn't. There is no grey area.

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Post by Brady12 on Mon 11 Jul 2011, 12:39 am

liverbnz wrote:
Brady12 wrote:
Davieswasacrippledtart wrote:I agree with liverbnz. Someone is either a draw or they are not. It's not subjective. You can't say "In my opinion Randy Orton is a draw" any more than you can say "In my opinion Smackdown's ratings are down".

Randy Orton gets a big ovation at live events, but I can't remember him ever affecting TV ratings or PPV buyrates, therefore he is not a draw.

It's the ability to make money, someone the fans pay to see so I think it can be subjective

That makes no sense. He either makes money or he doesn't. There is no grey area.

I disagree............ If I guy makes $10 million in 5 years in a booming market then is that the same as a guy who makes $10 million in 10 years in a tougher economical climate?... You can't simple look at a balance sheet I'm afraid


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Post by Brady12 on Mon 11 Jul 2011, 1:29 am

Take for example Triple H he was a big draw in the early 00's but you could argue look at his opponents at the time predominately Austin & The Rock 2 of the biggest draws ever if he couldn't draw with them who could he of drawn with?

Bruno Sammartino drew more money for the company than anyone even Hogan due to his longevity a 30 year career at the top will mean you sell out more arenas than a guy like Steve Austin who had 5-7 years at the very top.

People say Bret Hart didn't draw but if you look at the figures there was an upturn in business around the 94-96 time whenever the belt was put back on him as a pose to Kevin Nash or Shawn Michaels, business as a whole was down but does that mean Bret couldn't draw?

Did Edge draw? Well when he won his 1st WWE title Raw ratings went through the roof, yet they only kept the belt on him for 3 weeks because the plan was HHH v Cena at mania that year.

You can't just judge people drawing by looking at a balance sheet so many other factors contribute it is subjective

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Post by JoshSansom on Mon 11 Jul 2011, 9:12 am

This debate hits the difficulty of calculating who is drawing, in terms of knowing what WWE's revenues are and who they are related to.

In essence I would probably look at it a different way: which superstars would I tune into Raw/SD to watch and which stars would need to be removed for me to stop watching it.

On that basis at the moment the main drawers would be:

CM Punk
R Truth
Mark Henry
Christian
Sheamus

Now maybe this is something different about me but they are all obviously heels. Now, and this is only my opinion, it is heels that draw heat and heels that put bums on seats. Particularly in the modern WWE style of booking faces so strongly there is no excitement about watching the face v heel because you know that 9/10 the face will be victorious.

Maybe this is the issue with Orton and his ability or otherwise to draw revenue?

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Post by Kay Fabe on Mon 11 Jul 2011, 6:08 pm

Gregers wrote:Yes, but Orton needs to go back to tweener IMO
when has he ever been a tweener

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Post by statiksupernova on Mon 11 Jul 2011, 6:16 pm

Orton has since he turned face bored the hell outta me he is a much better heel even though hes not so good on the mic he could have more of a edge to him and not sound so montone. he has everything to be a big heel but beacuse wwe diodnt think further enough ahead in the future they left themselves short of big stars face wise

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Post by liverbnz on Mon 11 Jul 2011, 6:37 pm

Brady12 wrote:
liverbnz wrote:
Brady12 wrote:
Davieswasacrippledtart wrote:I agree with liverbnz. Someone is either a draw or they are not. It's not subjective. You can't say "In my opinion Randy Orton is a draw" any more than you can say "In my opinion Smackdown's ratings are down".

Randy Orton gets a big ovation at live events, but I can't remember him ever affecting TV ratings or PPV buyrates, therefore he is not a draw.

It's the ability to make money, someone the fans pay to see so I think it can be subjective

That makes no sense. He either makes money or he doesn't. There is no grey area.

I disagree............ If I guy makes $10 million in 5 years in a booming market then is that the same as a guy who makes $10 million in 10 years in a tougher economical climate?... You can't simple look at a balance sheet I'm afraid

I pretty confused at the angle you're coming at here. This is about Randy Orton drawing on his own. I'm not sure of the relevance of comparisons to other periods where there were economic or wrestling boom. It is a straight forward question with a simple factual answer. Does Randy Orton increase ratings/buys by drawing fans into the product that otherwise wouldn't watch it? Evidence points to no.

Apologies, if I being ignorant to your point.

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Post by Brady12 on Mon 11 Jul 2011, 8:53 pm

liverbnz wrote:
Brady12 wrote:
liverbnz wrote:
Brady12 wrote:
Davieswasacrippledtart wrote:I agree with liverbnz. Someone is either a draw or they are not. It's not subjective. You can't say "In my opinion Randy Orton is a draw" any more than you can say "In my opinion Smackdown's ratings are down".

Randy Orton gets a big ovation at live events, but I can't remember him ever affecting TV ratings or PPV buyrates, therefore he is not a draw.

It's the ability to make money, someone the fans pay to see so I think it can be subjective

That makes no sense. He either makes money or he doesn't. There is no grey area.

I disagree............ If I guy makes $10 million in 5 years in a booming market then is that the same as a guy who makes $10 million in 10 years in a tougher economical climate?... You can't simple look at a balance sheet I'm afraid

I pretty confused at the angle you're coming at here. This is about Randy Orton drawing on his own. I'm not sure of the relevance of comparisons to other periods where there were economic or wrestling boom. It is a straight forward question with a simple factual answer. Does Randy Orton increase ratings/buys by drawing fans into the product that otherwise wouldn't watch it? Evidence points to no.

Apologies, if I being ignorant to your point.

No it's fine your making some good points... I just think 'drawing power' can be subjective due to other factors other than the guy himself.

I voted no as Smackdown ratings are down & there's a poor pool of talent on Smackdown together with the fact he's no where near as good as a face....I think if they had Christain playing the face chasing Orton the heel they'd do better numbers... If he was a heel in 99 vs Steve Austin would he have drawn?

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Post by bretmeharty on Mon 11 Jul 2011, 9:01 pm

I voted no for pretty much the same reason brady, and don't see it as black and white as the others do on this matter.

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