It would appear...

...looking at the Open top 10 the Americans travel better than the English, even when the English dont have to travel. Considering the talent we supposedly have its nothing less than a shocking display really, only Dyson and Rock remotely respectable and they arent exactly the big names.
Fair play to the Yanks, 12 of the top 17 places playing a courrse that has played like a links course, maybe they will get a bit less stick on here for a little while.

I still can't warm to the majority though. There is something rather irksome about Messr's Campbell, Johnson, Bible Thumper Lehman, Fowler and especially Kim.

Mickelson and Glover seem like good eggs though.

Come on Darren.

I agree that the English showing has been very very disappointing to say the least!!

I dont mind them Super, think Fowler seems like a great kid with dodgy fashion sense. Like Johnson, seems like a classy guy and golfer and hope he wins it tomorrow.

Super , presumably you are anti a Clarke win as he is definitely the wrong side of corpulent...

I think that American supporters and the intolerable Americanism is probably behind my general dislike for their players. I'm sure they are all thoroughly decent guysalthough I can't bear it if they raise "the lord" in post round interviews or trot out worn out cliches of playing "solid". Obvously other nationalities can be just as bad, but Clarke looks like he's being playing a bounce game today. If only he could putt and he'd be half a dozen ahead.

Fair point Diggers. Particularly like the look of Dustin Johnson(sp?) and beginning to see why people think a lot of Fowler (although he's still way over-hyped considering his record so far).

I think we'd deplore the performances of the English golfers if this was an American Major, let alone one in our green and pleasant land.

Darren Clarke made a point of saying what a great guy Lucas Glover is, how he wished he could play with him every round - but Lucas can be the most miserable sod for spectators to follow. Quite the enigma underneath that beard.

Could it be that because they don't play links golf, the americans make more of an effort to adjust their games? Watching the end of DC's round today, he was clearly playing knock down shots most of the time, and Glover seemed to be doing much the same. Not sure Lee or Luke were doing that at all.

Fowler is certainly over-hyped by the (mostly American) media, but really, when did those of us who profess to have a love of the game ever listen to the media hype?

The hype is purely from/for the masses. I actually think the more minor-hype that young Rickie attracts from those away from the mainstream is justified. He may not win tomorrow but he's surely gained a lot of respect.

I'd love to see him win tomorrow APART from the fact that as it's a Sunday finish he'll have the Ronald McDonald outfit on.

Maybe it's time we (myself included) respected the reasons for his garish Sunday outfits though. The old fart in me would hate to see him pick up the claret jug looking like a circus clown but even I can appreciate his talent and can maybe forgive him should he win

(and before anyone asks, no I don't have money on him)

I simply can't have Fowler win tomorrow, firstly because he hasn't won a tournament in his professional life and the level of hype which would then surround him would be McIroy post US Open X 10 and would be quite intolerable.

Secondly he looks absolutely ridiculous, infact stupidly ridiculous, completely absurd. It might be quite funny if he was doing it from an anti golf establishment "ironic" viewpoint, but he clearly thinks he looks good, judging by the fact he wears different colours of the same outfit all the Flip time, so I just can't have the winner of the World's ultimate major looking like a Guantanamo Bay escapee with Troy Tempests eyebrows and a hat which looks like it belongs on 50 Pence or whatever he's called.

As always a completely pointless rant by S_R

super_realist wrote:the level of hype which would then surround him would be McIroy post US Open X 10 and would be quite intolerable.

Only in the USA, not here

Does the criticism of his eyebrows make up for the fact you can't slag him off for being a lardie?

I jus think he looks like the silliest thing to ever set foot on a golf course, and he's got stiff competition. I know he's American, but surely he must realise he looks like an utter Muppet.

50 Pence or whatever he's called

BTW, has the profanity filter been switched off?

super_realist wrote:I simply can't have Fowler win tomorrow, firstly because he hasn't won a tournament in his professional life and the level of hype which would then surround him would be McIroy post US Open X 10 and would be quite intolerable.

Secondly he looks absolutely ridiculous, infact stupidly ridiculous, completely absurd. It might be quite funny if he was doing it from an anti golf establishment "ironic" viewpoint, but he clearly thinks he looks good, judging by the fact he wears different colours of the same outfit all the Flip time, so I just can't have the winner of the World's ultimate major looking like a Guantanamo Bay escapee with Troy Tempests eyebrows and a hat which looks like it belongs on 50 Pence or whatever he's called.

He gets on my nerves like no golfer since Woods has...

SmithersJones wrote:

50 Pence or whatever he's called

BTW, has the profanity filter been switched off?

No, It;s still on, I just know a way round it, I'll try and temper my language, but sometimes certain individuals require some extra words to describe how annoying they are.

SmithersJones wrote:
BTW, has the profanity filter been switched off?

No it hasn't. The attempts to circumvent it have been edited.

s_r - please note that it's against forum rules to try to outwit the profanity filter

Sorry Davie, It won't happen again.

super_realist wrote:

SmithersJones wrote:

50 Pence or whatever he's called

BTW, has the profanity filter been switched off?

No, It;s still on, I just know a way round it, I'll try and temper my language, but sometimes certain individuals require some extra words to describe how annoying they are.

Sorry s_r, didn't mean to drop you in the sh1t, I was just hoping we'd grown up a bit.

No one's in the you-know-what - I don't make the rules I just try to enforce them

SmithersJones wrote:

super_realist wrote:

SmithersJones wrote:

50 Pence or whatever he's called

BTW, has the profanity filter been switched off?

No, It;s still on, I just know a way round it, I'll try and temper my language, but sometimes certain individuals require some extra words to describe how annoying they are.

Sorry s_r, didn't mean to drop you in the Poopie, I was just hoping we'd grown up a bit.

isn't that circumventing it again?

Apologies for quoting the initial one, thought it must have been made optional or something

Nay Bother wrote:As always a completely pointless rant by S_R

Actually, I agree 100% with what SR says, Rickiieeeeee is going to turn up in his customary tango'd outfit tomorrow. It might have been mildly amusing the first time he wore it but EVERY Sunday........ no thanks!!

I don't really understand why some people criticise Fowler for his lack of wins on tour - the kid's 22!

Look back at the careers of some the greats that are currently in the twilight of their careers (and a couple in the current top 10) and when their first tour wins were -

Mickelson - 21
Ernie Els - 25 (PGA/ET - not including Sunshine/Asian)
Tiger Woods - 21
Vijay Singh - 30
Lee Westwood - 23
Luke Donald - 25
Martin Kaymer - 24
Graham McDowell - 23

I have purposefully kept this to the last and current generation of players because prior to that golfers did not generally bother with an education so the game was different.

I think that this pretty much shows that Rickie Fowler is at or ahead of the curve if he wins over the next year or two and maybe the hype in the US surrounding him might not be totally misplaced. Just because he trots around in clothes and with a haircut that most of the guys on here are a bit senior to understand, it doesn't detract from the fact that he's a bloody good golfer and from what I can gather in interviews a really nice kid.

If Fowler can emulate the careers of any of those players that I mentioned then everybody's criticisms of him not winning at 22 will be far more misplaced than some media hype.

super_realist wrote:I jus think he looks like the silliest thing to ever set foot on a golf course, and he's got stiff competition. I know he's American, but surely he must realise he looks like an utter Muppet.

Genuine question - do you feel the same way about Ian Poulter?

Dead right sharrison. I've been critical of the orange on Sunday (because I think he looks a bit stupid) but I suggested earlier it is perhaps time to remember WHY he wears orange on a Sunday.

Personally I think it looks awful but I wouldn't have gone as far as others did when they suggested his jacket on Thursday looked like he had been visited by a flock of seagulls.

If he plays another 18 holes on Sunday as entertaining as his round today then I don't really care what he wears - or whether he looks like a Thunderbird puppet.

It never seemed to hurt Davis Love that he looked like Forrest Gump, or that Phil Mickelson looks like a Midwich Cuckoo. And perish the thought that anyone would say the late great Payne Stewart looked a bit of a prat at times.

And if he wins tomorrow wearing a bright orange outfit, it will be out of respect to the college that gave him the platform to become a professional golfer and will only enforce the opinion that he's a good kid. He is also very religious, polite and conducts himself in a good manner - characteristics very much lacking in most 22 year olds that I've met.

Maybe some of the posters on here should look past the fact that he's not endorsing their brand of chinos and cardigans and they might learn a bit from a 22 year old kid about manners and respect.

sharrison01 wrote:And if he wins tomorrow wearing a bright orange outfit, it will be out of respect to the college that gave him the platform to become a professional golfer and will only enforce the opinion that he's a good kid. He is also very religious, polite and conducts himself in a good manner - characteristics very much lacking in most 22 year olds that I've met.

Maybe some of the posters on here should look past the fact that he's not endorsing their brand of chinos and cardigans and they might learn a bit from a 22 year old kid about manners and respect.

very well said and I agree 100%

Hobo, As I said in an earlier thread, Fowler makes Poulter look like John Steed.

Harrison, When you compare the careers of Fowler and Mannaserro and the relative hype, then the furore which surrounds Fowler is completely over the top probably bolstered by an insular and flag waving American led media. At the moment he's just another promising kid who has potential, as yet unrealised.
Mannassero is light years ahead of where Fowler is yet we in Europe seem a bit more restrained and dare I say if realistic, even if Fowler wins tomorrow. I think it's just that the American's are wetting their pants because they've struggled to produce a star in the last couple of years.

Why include Singh for comparison? He's 48!!!!

As for not endorsing clothing? He's got the biggest logo's in the entire field and wears it in a "look at me I'm so zany and ahem "individual" way. I'm not disputing he's a good guy certainly better than the majority of loathsome footballers, although I've got no respect for anyone who is religious, but no one could argue that he doesn't look like a buffoon on the course.

sharrison01 wrote:And if he wins tomorrow wearing a bright orange outfit, it will be out of respect to the college that gave him the platform to become a professional golfer and will only enforce the opinion that he's a good kid. He is also very religious, polite and conducts himself in a good manner - characteristics very much lacking in most 22 year olds that I've met.

Maybe some of the posters on here should look past the fact that he's not endorsing their brand of chinos and cardigans and they might learn a bit from a 22 year old kid about manners and respect.

Really? Didn't think it was possible but he's just sank further in my estimations. And nothing to with cardigans either, he's 2 years in age from me.

Not sure what his religious views have to do with anything. Probably as much (or little) as his eyebrows.

Before anyone starts, I am totally agnostic (or is it atheist - I am always confused over which is which).

Whichever I am, it does annoy me when the bible-bashers try to force it down the throats of other people but to be fair to Rickie I've never heard him try to do that.

Anyone's religious views are their own business and while it does nothing for me, I would always respect their rights to hold their views.

Should he win tomorrow and turn his winner's speech into some sort of sermon then I may be inclined to agree with you but until then let his beliefs be a matter between him and his God

Nobody was having a go at him for being religous, we were merely saying, Ned and I that we have no respect for religious people, just as I have no respect for people who watch X-Factor, or who are needlessly fat or who read The Guardian.

Davie wrote:Dead right sharrison. I've been critical of the orange on Sunday (because I think he looks a bit stupid) but I suggested earlier it is perhaps time to remember WHY he wears orange on a Sunday.

Personally I think it looks awful but I wouldn't have gone as far as others did when they suggested his jacket on Thursday looked like he had been visited by a flock of seagulls.

If he plays another 18 holes on Sunday as entertaining as his round today then I don't really care what he wears - or whether he looks like a Thunderbird puppet.

It never seemed to hurt Davis Love that he looked like Forrest Gump, or that Phil Mickelson looks like a Midwich Cuckoo. And perish the thought that anyone would say the late great Payne Stewart looked a bit of a prat at times.

Payne Stewart certainly did look stupid, not just at times, but all the time, but at least he'd earned the right to. Fowler has done nothing in the game of golf so far and looks a bit like a League One player in Orange boots. Daft.

Davie, agree that his religious views aren't important but the fact that he had views and beliefs, regardless of whether people agree with them, show him to be a bit more than a clothes horse for Puma. Most 22 years olds have beliefs along the lines of "Sundays are for come downs."

As for the question of hype, Mannasero would have been knighted and made a lord of he was English. The fact is that he is from a country that care very little about golf so as an industry he is of much less use than someone like Fowler that can sell the game to the masses. To state that us Europeans are more restrained is just ridiculous given the recent worship of Rory and if the US media hype is correct and Fowler goes on to succeed, then the game will only be better for it.

He will grow out of the image so recognise this as the fad that it is and just look at the person behind it and how well he hits a golf ball.

NedB-H wrote:

sharrison01 wrote:And if he wins tomorrow wearing a bright orange outfit, it will be out of respect to the college that gave him the platform to become a professional golfer and will only enforce the opinion that he's a good kid. He is also very religious, polite and conducts himself in a good manner - characteristics very much lacking in most 22 year olds that I've met.

Maybe some of the posters on here should look past the fact that he's not endorsing their brand of chinos and cardigans and they might learn a bit from a 22 year old kid about manners and respect.

Really? Didn't think it was possible but he's just sank further in my estimations. And nothing to with cardigans either, he's 2 years in age from me.

That would be where my earlier mention of him being able to teach some posters respect might be worth a re-read. Lets not pretend that you are above him because your beliefs are different...

sharrison01 wrote:Davie, agree that his religious views aren't important but the fact that he had views and beliefs, regardless of whether people agree with them, show him to be a bit more than a clothes horse for Puma. Most 22 years olds have beliefs along the lines of "Sundays are for come downs."

As for the question of hype, Mannasero would have been knighted and made a lord of he was English. The fact is that he is from a country that care very little about golf so as an industry he is of much less use than someone like Fowler that can sell the game to the masses. To state that us Europeans are more restrained is just ridiculous given the recent worship of Rory and if the US media hype is correct and Fowler goes on to succeed, then the game will only be better for it.

He will grow out of the image so recognise this as the fad that it is and just look at the person behind it and how well he hits a golf ball.

As much as I loathe the over the top attention that McIlroy has achieved, the media did at least wait until he'd won a major before going overboard on the praise. The US media is acting like Fowler is a credible force in the game without actually proving it yet, in truth though he's just another Jeff Overton (though not as fat) and until he actually wins something, then they should get it in perspective or he'll be just another Michelle Wie, i.e all hype no substance.

And to suggest that any of us need to learn "respect" from someone like Fowler is just plain stupid. We'd all put on our "telephone voices and mannerisms" for the camera. He's not a paragon of virtue, just an ordinary guy, so I'm not going to fall to my knees and laud him for something that should be his default persona and something that we'd all be if we were in his position.

super_realist wrote:

As much as I loathe the over the top attention that McIlroy has achieved, the media did at least wait until he'd won a major before going overboard on the praise. The US media is acting like Fowler is a credible force in the game without actually proving it yet, in truth though he's just another Jeff Overton (though not as fat) and until he actually wins something, then they should get it in perspective or he'll be just another Michelle Wie, i.e all hype no substance.

As you have already mentioned, the US is in a slump with their production line of talent at the moment so they may be forgiven for clinging onto any last morsel of prospect that might be out there.

And I'm pretty sure that a young Justin Rose was hailed as the messiah after coming fourth in The Open, just before missing any cut he could get his hands on. Our media is no different to the US - the difference is that they believe what they are told and are happy because of it whereas we doubt what we are told and sit around doing nothing about it but becoming cynical. Who's the better off?

It's better to be cynical and save praise for those that have earned it than believe everything that is spoon fed to you in the gutter press and hype them up only for them to not fulfil it.

If Fowler wins tomorrow, I'll still have my doubts to his long term credibility as he's done precious little in his career so far to merit it, but I'll be the first to say well done, even if he does look like a white 16 year old hip hop fan with Dennis Healey's eyebrows.

SR

What will you read on a sunday now the news of the world has gone?



As for the English, and can we not extend this to the UK, golfers the showing was terrible. Even McIlroy who is still doing ok got a lesson in how to play links golf from a player who has probably never stepped on a links more than a few times.

Now just because they are from the UK does not mean they can play links golf or in bad weather but given the number of places we hold in the top 50 you would expect a better showing in any major no matter what course.

Are we going to have to accept given the history of the event that in the last 50 years or so the americans have become better links players than the UK players?

super_realist wrote:Nobody was having a go at him for being religous, we were merely saying, Ned and I that we have no respect for religious people, just as I have no respect for people who watch X-Factor, or who are needlessly fat or who read The Guardian.

more or less

I don't have a problem with the religious pros who I otherwise like, Lehman being one. It's just anothering thing to add for the ones I don't like.

Oh god here comes Alan Rusbridger.
Let's just wait until the final putt is holed tomorrow shall we?
There's a lot of non links specialists from Europe up there too with a very good chance, as well as Clarke right at the top. Perhaps it's a similar situation to Brit's not doing well at Wimbledon, who knows.
Do yanks know how to play links better? No. How many of the Brit contingent actually grew up playing links? Lawrie, Clarke, Mcdowell and McIlroy off the top of my head, doubtless there are more, but simply being British doesn't make you a links expert. Plenty English players especially could make it through to the pro ranks without ever setting foot on one.

super_realist wrote:It's better to be cynical and save praise for those that have earned it than believe everything that is spoon fed to you in the gutter press and hype them up only for them to not fulfil it.

If Fowler wins tomorrow, I'll still have my doubts to his long term credibility as he's done precious little in his career so far to merit it, but I'll be the first to say well done, even if he does look like a white 16 year old hip hop fan with Dennis Healey's eyebrows.

How predictable - cynicism at it's very best.

Imagine being on an American version of 606v2 right now. It would be so boring to talk about how one of their up and coming youngsters has gone to Britain and absolutely ripped it in the worst possible weather to put the Europeans to shame. They might even have time to analyse his swing/game/course management/preparation to improve their own golf. What a truly alien notion to the cynical Brits that would rather question everything and learn from nothing...

This is just one tournament...

Last year's Open had three UK golfers in the top 5, and no Americans. The Brits were also miles ahead of the Americans present last week on a links (Kuchar excepted, and he finished +11 here). It's a bit early to say British golfers can't play on links.

Harrison, I'm not questioning Fowler's potential, i'm questioning Fowlers current standing in the game. So far, he hasn't lived up to or earned his hype.

Both American's and British are past-masters at overhyping their sports "stars" for example the English national football team before they've actually done anything.

I'm looking at things from a different angle, which is neither British nor American.
I also don't believe he's put the European's to shame. He's just had 3 good rounds in a major for the first time in his career there's been numerous times when he's been put in the shade in his own back yard by Europeans. His 2011 Open has so far been commendable, but not laudable or earth shattering.

But then surely you have seen this hype before with some of the other players that I mentioned that did not win until they were Fowler's age or older? If you really cannot accept the hype for what it is, which is stopping fans from moving to other sports with their cash while the US sorts out it's development of young golfers, then what is the point in trying to look at it from any angle?

And I would say that if the best that European golf has to offer is in the form of three players in the twilight of their career hacking it around in the better half of the draw then there is some shame in that.

The nationality of hyped up players is of no consequence, it's a symptom of the UK and US media, neither of which I agree with. Hype is a pointless thing to cover. People are more likely to succeed in my opinion if they aren't held up as "the next big thing" before they've even won anything and if you really think that the best that Europe has to offer is three players in the "twilight of their career" then you probably haven't been following the whole crux of this debate.
Europe has plenty of young up and coming players who have already proven themselves to be tour winners. McIlroy, Mannaserro and Kaymer are not exactly ancient are they and have proven themselves to be far better than Fowler. In any event it's not about Europe v USA it's about overhyping people before they've achieved anything. And as Fowler has won sweet FA, he cannot be anything but overhyped. He's played three good rounds, that's all. So please calm down before insinuating that attitudes are wrong, because overhyping Fowler hasn't exactly led to a full trophy cabinet has it?

I was talking about the European effort over the past three rounds as being shameful, not the state of European golf in general. You may not have followed my comments correctly.

I agree that it is better for most players to just get on with it without the hype but then I think that this is very European specific. In America, a lot of players are more likely to gain confidence from the hype surrounding them - it certainly helped Tiger.

And as for questioning attitudes, I think that they should very much be questioned. Fowler had a fantastic round today in the worst of the weather and the only thing that people can talk about are his clothing, religion and US media hype?!? Maybe questioning this sort of attitude might help us Brits to produce a world number 1, 2 and 9 that don't miss the cuts in a major.

Don't be ridiculous.
I initially said I didn't want Fowler to win because he looks like a fud, is a god botherer and has never won a tournament.
I can't see how anyone looking at the attitude of such a person could possibly improve their chances of making cuts, as our number 1,2 and 9 have made more cuts than Fowler will probably ever make.
All that has happened is that they've had a bad tournament. It happens to every professional golfer. I don't think it was their attitude, just that they had a bad tournament.
The whole problem with media, US and UK is that they expect players to play to the best of their ability at all times. That isn't realistic.
Donald has played out of his skin all year, better than anyone else in the whole world by an absolute mile, and you question his attitude because he misses one cut in a tournament he has never done well in.
That's the sort of attitude that needs looking at, not trying to draw something from a guy who has had the only really good tournament of his entire life in a career of mediocrity.If anything Fowler could probably learn a great deal about winning from Donald, Westwood, McIlroy, Casey, Poulter etc, because they actually know about winning.

sharrison01 wrote:But then surely you have seen this hype before with some of the other players that I mentioned that did not win until they were Fowler's age or older?

I don't remember anything like the same level of hype around Donald, Kaymer or McDowell before they won their first tournaments. Kaymer had a little bit because of the way he stormed the Challenge Tour, Donald was being talked about because of his college career, but neither were in the Fowler league of hype.


I find it bizarre that a few golf fans not liking one particular pro golfer is being blamed for "the world numbers 1, 2, and 9 missing the cut". Firstly, we're talking about the two best golfers in the world, and one of last year's major winners. I don't think we need to question their abilities, just cos they didn't have a good week this time round; their careers more than prove their worth, and their attitudes. Secondly, bemoaning the local success we are having because it's "three players in the twilight of their career hacking it around in the better half of the draw" is a far worse attitude than anything else there's been on this thread. And for the record, Bjorn, Jimenez and Hansen all had the tougher conditions in Rnds 1 and 2.

If Fowler wins tomorrow...and Id be happy if he did ... he'll have done it playing some great golf in tough conditions, his score today was superb. So we will know he is a good player who will have fulfilled some of the potential some see in him.