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Do We Need a different type of spinner?

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Post by We Are Number 1!!! Sat 13 Aug 2011, 5:11 pm

Before we get started, I'm Swanny's biggest fan, but do we need a different type of spinner against this opposition? Whilst the seamers have destroyed the tourists, Swann has been picked apart. I thought it was quite humiliating how Kumar smashed Swann everywhere and Swanny didn't have any answer.

Should we try out a left arm spinner like Briggs or a leg spinner like Rashid? When we go to asia we'll need the spinner to do a holding job, and a present Swanny doesn't seem up to it.

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Post by GSC Sat 13 Aug 2011, 5:19 pm

Its been a series for seamers, conditions have rarely suited spinners. None of the spinners have excelled.

Swann's the #1 spinner in the world, he picks himself, and on the subcontinent I imagine we'd either play a 2nd spinner or drop Morgan for Patel who offers a secondary spin option and can bat
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Post by Liam_Main Sat 13 Aug 2011, 5:28 pm

Swannys the number 1 Spinner in the world there's no cause for concern yet despite not exactly firing in this series. He proved in the 1st Test that he can hold a end and took some valuable wickets in this match.

Kumar was looking to attack and the easiest way to do it is against the Spinner.
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Post by Fists of Fury Sat 13 Aug 2011, 5:35 pm

We Are Number 1!!! wrote:Before we get started, I'm Swanny's biggest fan, but do we need a different type of spinner against this opposition? Whilst the seamers have destroyed the tourists, Swann has been picked apart. I thought it was quite humiliating how Kumar smashed Swann everywhere and Swanny didn't have any answer.

Should we try out a left arm spinner like Briggs or a leg spinner like Rashid? When we go to asia we'll need the spinner to do a holding job, and a present Swanny doesn't seem up to it.

This happens sometimes mate when someone goes hell for leather and slogs out, I've seen it happen to Warne a few times, and I even remember a certain walking wicket Monty Panesar slog sweep Murali for 6 and hit him for a few 4's in a swashbuckling innings.

Swann was unlucky today, he deserved more wickets.

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Post by We Are Number 1!!! Sat 13 Aug 2011, 5:53 pm

Sorry guys you misunderstood me, I didn't mean Swanny is bad or become rubbish. What I meant was now the series is dead, give Swanny a game of ahead of the limited overs stuff. He can go try a few new tricks up at Notts.

One thing is certain, in the winter he is vital and has to block up an end. In UAE and Lanka there will be less in the pitch for seamers, so if we lose the toss and bowl first, Swanny could bowl 30+ overs in day 1 and we need control.

We can't have the seamers bowling very long spells in 40 degree heat + 90-100% humidity, they'll melt lol!!!

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Post by GSC Sat 13 Aug 2011, 5:54 pm

Theres a difference when the game's lost and you have the ability to go out and slog without consequences.
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Post by We Are Number 1!!! Sat 13 Aug 2011, 6:07 pm

Graeme Swann's Cat wrote:Theres a difference when the game's lost and you have the ability to go out and slog without consequences.
Very true, but Swanny shouldn't be getting smashed around by Kumar. Likes of Sehwag, Dilshan etc yes.

Secondly the Lankas will want revenge on Swanny after he destroyed them at Cardiff.

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Post by Fists of Fury Sat 13 Aug 2011, 6:18 pm

We Are Number 1!!! wrote:
Graeme Swann's Cat wrote:Theres a difference when the game's lost and you have the ability to go out and slog without consequences.
Very true, but Swanny shouldn't be getting smashed around by Kumar. Likes of Sehwag, Dilshan etc yes.

Secondly the Lankas will want revenge on Swanny after he destroyed them at Cardiff.

See my above post, sometimes slogging with reckless abandon comes off, others you hole out straight away. If Shane Warne can get carted around by a tail ender, then there's nothing to say that Swann won't be from time to time. It is nothing of concern.

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Post by We Are Number 1!!! Sat 13 Aug 2011, 6:23 pm

Fists of Fury wrote:
We Are Number 1!!! wrote:
Graeme Swann's Cat wrote:Theres a difference when the game's lost and you have the ability to go out and slog without consequences.
Very true, but Swanny shouldn't be getting smashed around by Kumar. Likes of Sehwag, Dilshan etc yes.

Secondly the Lankas will want revenge on Swanny after he destroyed them at Cardiff.

See my above post, sometimes slogging with reckless abandon comes off, others you hole out straight away. If Shane Warne can get carted around by a tail ender, then there's nothing to say that Swann won't be from time to time. It is nothing of concern.
Whilst I take on board what you're saying, it more the lack of control from Swann that worries me. I mean before the series he was averaging 27, now that has claimed to 29.18. Whilst the pitches aren't square turners, Swanny has taken wickets at home against everyone, prior to this series.

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Post by Fists of Fury Sat 13 Aug 2011, 6:32 pm

That's because he has barely been required in this series, and has generally only come on when the tail enders are slogging out.

When he has been needed in tight situations he has never let us down, and in such situations the batsmen are far less willing to play shots against him, therefore helping him gain control.

In fact, you only need to look back to Lord's or Trent Bridge, I forget which one, where he bowled several overs with fantastic control to squeeze the life out of the Indian batsmen. I feel you are making much ado about nothing with this one.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Sat 13 Aug 2011, 6:46 pm

The way to bowl out a team from the subcontinent on english pitches is to use swing and bounce so the pitches have been prepared accordingly, for all their failings against our seamers you can't overlook how good the indian batsmen are at playing spin, were he performing like this on spin friendly pitches then we may have to look more closely at his performances. Looking at one isolated incident of a tailender slogging out when the match and series is effectively dead is of no real consequence.

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Post by We Are Number 1!!! Sat 13 Aug 2011, 7:07 pm

We'll have to agree to disagree on this subject. Whilst it may have been a tailender slogging, Swanny normally runs through the lower order, just look at Pakistan last year, he was all over them like a cheap suit.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Sat 13 Aug 2011, 7:09 pm

The pitches were more suited to spin bowling last summer something they're not this summer, would be interested to know which spinner would be overly effective in the current conditions.

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Post by Fists of Fury Sat 13 Aug 2011, 7:12 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:The pitches were more suited to spin bowling last summer something they're not this summer, would be interested to know which spinner would be overly effective in the current conditions.

I'd hazard a guess at none of the current crop of spinners in world cricket, Ghosty.

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Post by We Are Number 1!!! Sat 13 Aug 2011, 7:17 pm

Fists of Fury wrote:
Imperial Ghosty wrote:The pitches were more suited to spin bowling last summer something they're not this summer, would be interested to know which spinner would be overly effective in the current conditions.

I'd hazard a guess at none of the current crop of spinners in world cricket, Ghosty.
Certainly agree on both posts, maybe a guy like Ajmal might be slightly more successful?

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Sat 13 Aug 2011, 7:23 pm

Which goes to prove the point that Fists and myself have been trying to make that although Swann hasn't been at his wicket taking best there's no one out who would do a better job, even the likes of Murali and Warne got spanked around the ground by tailenders.

Feels weird being elsewhere on this site

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Post by Fists of Fury Sat 13 Aug 2011, 7:33 pm

Haha you'll get used to it mate Wink

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Post by trebellbobaggins Sat 13 Aug 2011, 8:04 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:The pitches were more suited to spin bowling last summer something they're not this summer, would be interested to know which spinner would be overly effective in the current conditions.

They just aren't dry enough. Far too much rain and wet around. It's been a bad summer for a spinner.

I can't see it changing at the Oval.

We may get a dry September and see better then. (hopefully).

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Post by Liam_Main Sat 13 Aug 2011, 8:20 pm

Both Briggs and Rashid have had poor County Championsip seasons so if England did look to bring in another spinner I can only see it being Monty. Not as much variety as the other two but highly more consistent and c'mon who doesn't like to see a Monty celebration!
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Post by We Are Number 1!!! Sat 13 Aug 2011, 8:43 pm

Whilst it has been pretty wet this summer and therefore pitches not being overly spinner friendly, in South Africa a few years back, Swanny took plenty on unhelpful pitches. And they weren't gimme wickets, guys like Kallis, de Villiers, Amla etc can play a bit!

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Post by Liam_Main Sat 13 Aug 2011, 9:36 pm

Swann has been terrific in every series bar this one the reason he's shot up the bowling rankings! I doubt England would even consider dropping him, class apart from Englands other spinners.
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Post by We Are Number 1!!! Sat 13 Aug 2011, 9:39 pm

Liam_Main wrote:Swann has been terrific in every series bar this one the reason he's shot up the bowling rankings! I doubt England would even consider dropping him, class apart from Englands other spinners.
Agree he has been very good, but I'd like to see him bowl in tandem with someone like Briggs/Rashid. Monty shouldn't be the 'next cab of the rank'.

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Post by Liam_Main Sat 13 Aug 2011, 9:52 pm

Who do you take out of the team though?

Morgan? He's just made a century
KP? He's back to his best

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Post by We Are Number 1!!! Sat 13 Aug 2011, 9:55 pm

Liam_Main wrote:Who do you take out of the team though?

Morgan? He's just made a century
KP? He's back to his best

No I mean in the sub-continent. Morgan would be dropped, very harsh but needs must. Everyone else moves up one if Briggs plays, or Rashid at 7.

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Post by Liam_Main Sat 13 Aug 2011, 10:06 pm

Extremely harsh especially if Morgan does well in the final Test against India.

Rashid's had a shocking year in the CC averaging 40, be very surprised if England went with him. Briggs hasn't shown great form either. Monty should be next in the pipeline, Rashid and Briggs haven't done enough yet to deserve a England place especially not in the Test side. Not that i'm saying they won't do well in the future.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Sat 13 Aug 2011, 10:09 pm

Would have to agree that on the sub-continent Morgan should be dropped in favour of a second spinner, he's done ok this series but often when England have been in dominating positions while still looking technically deficient against seam bowling, his footwork against spinners is very good but he's not the man i'd want in a crisis.

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Post by We Are Number 1!!! Sat 13 Aug 2011, 10:11 pm

Liam_Main wrote:Extremely harsh especially if Morgan does well in the final Test against India.

Rashid's had a shocking year in the CC averaging 40, be very surprised if England went with him. Briggs hasn't shown great form either. Monty should be next in the pipeline, Rashid and Briggs haven't done enough yet to deserve a England place especially not in the Test side. Not that i'm saying they won't do well in the future.

Monty doesn't seem to develop, he doesn't vary his pace etc. If it was for comical value yeah sure lol

Briggs hasn't had a great f/c season, but in the winter he was top draw for the Lions in the Caribbean regional event.

Rashid is a leggie and there are exciting, especially when there is an attacking off spinner at the other end.

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